Whats funny is even the worst classical music is better than the music I hear coming from peoples cars.

Your commentary is always pithy AND entertaining! I love your commitment to this channel and I thank you for the many hours of enjoyment you have provided me. I also wish to thank you for introducing me to the early piano trios of Mendelssohn, which helped me to reassess his contribution to music. Keep it coming!

I'm looking forward to the series "10 things Dave *won't* talk about." I'm amazed that you find the time to do these vlogs and listen to any music at all! 😉

I can never quite get into the Brahms String Quartets, but even at 85 I'll keep trying.

When I first saw the title of this video, I immediately thought "Wellington's Victory." But on reflection I realized that, although it may the the trashiest thing Beethoven wrote, it is certainly interesting in its own way. I was also thinking of Wagner's dreadful "Love Feast of the Apostles" discussed here in an earlier video, but this is hardly a threat to re-enter the repertoire despite the big name of the composer. Love these lists!

Ah, “Rienzi.” My high-school band played the overture as a contest piece in the early 1970s. I still have the custom-made souvenir recording of our performance at the state contest. We were pretty bad.

Oh gosh I studied the triple concerto for a concert and it was the most painful experience of boredom I ever had

Surely - surely...'Christ on the Mount of Olives' is Beethoven's most dreary work, making the Triple Concerto seem a waltz in the park...

Hi Dave, very interesting topic. I have to admit I have never heard of some of these works before and apparently for good reason in most cases. I have seen you use the word "uninteresting" with regards to works, thematic material or orchestration, to me often sounded a bit broad and less informative but in this video I think you made it pretty clear what you meant, thanks for that.

Tchaikovsky 3rd is easily my favorite symphony of his, except for 6th...

I enjoy Tchaikovsky’s “Polish” more than most other folks do but I’m certainly not going to argue it’s one of the composer’s most fascinating works. Otherwise, no quibbles with your list from my corner.

The reason that Stravinsky's Perséphone is rarely given and has a rather shadowy existence among S's oeuvre, is that the music has something distant about it in combination with 'the sublime', and it is that latter quality which is so different from the age in which it was written. It does not have the mellow, romantic veneer of Apollon, but a more austere sublimity. So, a niche interest for listeners who get the point. Mr Hurwitz is entirely right about the greatness of the music.

With all those wonderful tunes Tchaikovsky's 3rd sounds more to me like a suite from a ballet that never was ..and as I read these comments I guess George Balinchine thought so too.

This was very interesting!

Chacon a son gout - but Le Rondine, to me, is absolute joy and hugely underrated. It’s light but exquisitely written. Similarly Tchaikovsky’s third is a light and possibly trivial work but Tchaikovsky can be pure delight when he isn’t trying to be profound. The same is true of the Beethoven. The others I’m not arguing about. But it’s good to raise interest in neglected works. It reminds me of Lord Berners’ novel Count Omega in which the composer hero programmes his symphony after the most boring works by major composers - Beethoven’s Consecration of the House and Brahms’ second serenade. A bit unfair to both but it’s a very amusing and bizarre novel. No one’s sure whether the hero is a parody of Walton or Rubbra.

When Tchaikovsky 3 came up I had a moment of deja vu wondering if I had played the piece at one point. I checked out the KZfaq with the score and lo and behold, I realized that I had played it about 10 years ago. I guess it made a big impression on me.

Hello. I’d like to comment about Mozart’s Coronation Mass. Me personally, I have been intrigued and fascinated with musical expressiveness and vivid beauty of every movement of Coronation Mass. So, it is quite an interesting thing to see some people not liking it. Because if I had to name one of the most beautiful and spiritually ascending mass of classical music, it would be Mozart’s Coronation Mass. It really left me amazed for years. Haydn also had some great masses as well…

Enjoyable video. However, one of my favorite Mozart recordings is David Zinman conducting Mozart’s Coronation Mass and, to some, his equally uninteresting Coronation concerto. I especially love the “Credo.” Oh well-Vivre la difference! Keep posting.

omg the Triple... you just made every cellist cry haha (well this one anyway)

I just love David's opinions!!

Agreed entirely with your list also.

The great English critic Ernst Newman opined that Rienzi was a case of musical 'measles' Wagner needed to pass through to achieve, as you imply, his latter genius.

Handel is my favourite composer, but I have to concede that 'Joseph' is as dull as dish water!

When I was an undergrad I heard a performance of the Triple Concerto. Going in I was still naive enough to think everything by Beethoven would be great. I left scratching my head wondering why I was unimpressed. I knew it wasn't the performers. My prof helped me realize not to put these people on pedestals. Thanks Dave for confirming my impressions.

Can you do a part 2 consisting of composers like Haydn Bach Chopin Rossini Vivaldi Schumann Berlioz Grieg Schubert and Verdi

Perhaps a listing of the ten greatest (okay, most ballyhooed) compositions that were disowned/loathed by their composers. Peer Gynt, Reverie (Debussy), HMS Pinafore come to mind

Recently you mentioned Tchaikovsky's Souvenir de Florence, which I had barely heard of. I would love for you to do a video on major composers' major but rarely recorded works that should be much better known.

I remembered in one of Mr. Hurwitz's earlier videos, he said Fatum is Tchaikovsky's worst work. The Polish symphony is better than Fatum but I guess bad doesn't mean uninteresting. Fatum is so bad that it actually becomes interesting.

Love the quips in this one, esp. "Rossini with constipation"!

Oh, and a question, Dave: I of course agree about Mozart’s lack of interest in composing sacred music, but I am now shamelessly wondering what you like. About the Requiem you’ve always been clear-you hear lovely moments, but it’s not all Mozart, and not compelling as a (not) whole-but what do you make of the massive torso that is the C minor Mass? (What I like is irrelevant, of course, but I think it has some great moments). How about “Exsultate, jubilate”? And perhaps above all: “Ave verum corpus”-a minor masterpiece (as I hear it) or something else? This is me soliciting your opinion simply because I value it, of course!

Absolutely agree about Perséphone: gorgeous, although it does have its longeurs in the third movement. Some marvellous moments (the flute boogie-woogie...). Maybe it's expensive to put on, as you need a star to narrate? I've never sat through the whole of Rienzi, so I can't comment. Tchaikovsky's most tedious work is surely 'Iolanta'.

This was fun. I think Wellington's Victory might give Beethoven's triple concerto a run for its money.

I listened to Rinaldo today. I like it. I could listen to it a few times in a year. Fred🇸🇪🇸🇪🇸🇪

Whilst I'm not at this point going to put forward my nominations; I am in 100% agreement with Dave's base contention; namely that every composer had their off days/pieces that probably didn't pass "quality control". The reality is that many composers, especially during the baroque/classic period, worked in positions of having to "churn out works to order" and no one, no matter how gifted, is ever going to be even in quality of output particularly under these constraints. Something so many purists/"guardians of the sacred flame" blithely ignore in their contentions "but this is Bach !!/this is Mozart !! this is X/Y/Z and therefore works of matchless, infallible genius !"

I have to hand it to you for evenhandedness: You put Persephone on the list and then talked about how much you like it and why it shouldn't be on the list! 😄 Well, it's a good example to set for your listeners: we should learn to be unembarrassed by our own tastes. Just keep listening!

A college friend of mine suggested that cannons would improve the Triple Concerto. Daaaah, daa, daa, da, da,da, BOOM! etc.

couldn't agree more about LVB's triple concerto. snoozefest.

I listened to Rinaldo about 40 years ago

Listening it occurred to me to make a video on the best insults composers have bestowed on other composers, and responses to criticism of their own work. You could ring the gong after each.

Interesting that I tried to think of an uninteresting work by Haydn. Can’t think of a single thing. Genius.

Great list. I would have chosen the Mass in C for Beethoven. I just can’t love that work....and I’ve tried. I find it very uninteresting. Maybe that will change in the future.

Debussy's Martyre is indeed a great bore in spite of moments of beauty. BUT: The beginning and the subsequent duet of the twins is sublime. Interestingly: with this beautiful music, the work begins very promising, but Debussy was obviously continuously hindered by the empty and wordy text by d' Annunzio. Had he had a better text, he may have created indeed a 'French Parsifal', all the seeds are there. Also there is a sublime aria of Erigone which is thrilling - but alas, very short, just seems to have popped-up like an inspiration escaping from the dreary commission. Debussy needed the money of the commission, being plagued by accumulated debts. So, ... it's a tragedy really.

I think Rinaldo is usually around forty minutes in length. It may _seem_ as long as _Ein deutsches Requiem_ , granted.

Also, just a minor correction, the section of Mozart's Credo Mass that includes the Jupiter theme is in the Sanctus, not Credo (as you would think).

I find Wellington's Victory to be Beethoven's least interesting orchestral composition - not bad, but why listen to it when the 1812 Overture is available when you want to celebrate Napoleon's fall? Maybe because Wellington finished what the Russians started? :) To me only the conclusion really sounds like Beethoven. The other composers I just haven't listened to enough of their output to really say. Mozart composed a hundred masses, a genre that's a mixed bag for me, so I have no desire to hear them all when the "Great" C minor, incomplete as it is, has so many wonderful moments. Rienzi's overture is the only pre-Bayreuth Repertoire piece of Wagner's I'm familiar with, though I'm sure I heard an early symphony that made less of an impression upon me. You're right about him needing to reinvent things to really be heard. I guess that's not a work anyone performs though.

Tchaikovsky''s 3rd is a fun tuneful work much like the suites for orchestra. I think most people are expecting extreme angst and drama when they see symphony connected to this composer. Perhaps if he had called it a suite, which is what it really is, Instead of a symphony listeners would receive it in a different way.

I was sure you were going to mention Elgar's Cello Concerto

Just got, and listened to "Joseph and His Brethren." Admittedly, just to complete my collection, along with "Alexander Balus." It is overly long and does drag. I bought it because it was there.

Hey @David Hurwitz! I love your videos and I love how honest and also open you are with your thoughts and opinions. I'm sure you have been asked this before but I'd love to hear your thoughts on the Penguin Guide to Classical music. I have almost every volume since the first released edition back in the 80's. It was my guideline for many years and I've come to appreciate and also disagree with it over time.

David, congrats on the new website. On your discussion of the worst works of composers, I noticed you pronounced Wagner's Rienzi as ree-ENsee. The proper pronunciation is REEN-see.

I love Arabella! Yes, it is perverse, but such beautiful musik. Also, La Rondine, a light piece with a great quiz question -how many parts in Opera are scored for a character to whistle? La Rondine is one, and La Fanciulla del West, and Wozzeck another. There are more but now I forget.

How about recordings of most uninteresting works that are so good that they become interesting. Already done for beethoven's triple

I love handel but I’ve never even heard of Joseph and his brethens.

I'd say Beethoven's cantata, Der Glorreiche Augenblick. It's so obscure as far as I know it's only had one recording. Written (probably hastily) for the Congress of Vienna in 1814, so you'd think it would be prime middle period Beethoven.

Don't know "Arabella." Spend several months one night getting through "The Egyptian Helen."

Tchaikovsky's 3rd was nicknamed The Polish after his death by conductor Augustus Mann at the crystal Palace in London because of the polonaise finale. Its got good tunes and the slow movement is great and haunting. It IS a symphony because of sonata movements and subtle connections between them. However, there is no dramatic drive as there is in all the other symphonies, no sense of direction. Lovely to listen to though, i still think every bit is pleasant or exciting.

Even if the rest of it is pablum, "Rienzi" has an outstanding overture.

And now a suggestion for lists in this vein: 10 works in [insert genre here] that should be standard repertoire but aren’t for any number of stupid reasons (it ends quietly, it’s short, the composer isn’t well-known). You could call each list something inflammatory: “10 Symphonies We Ought to Hear Performed as Often as The Ninth” or the like. I was just listening to Kurt Atterberg’s Symphonie funebre-I decided to pay attention to his symphonies after your CPO video-and I thought, “why doesn’t anyone *play* this?” I had a similar experience with Langgaard recently (thanks to your Da Capo video). I could go on.

By Beethoven I would have chosen Wellington's Victory. It was his most popular work during his lifetime!

Rienzi! All the reasons you point as being it's negatives, are all the very reasons I like! It's the opera equivalent of crap TV, you need it after a rough workday, with a bottle of red wine.

Saw Persephone on this list and logged-in loaded for bear. Only to find we're on exactly the same page. Love the piece, particularly in the Salonen recording. As for Arabella yes, the cast ranges from boring to thoroughly dislikeable, the girl herself (perhaps) excepted. But I'd put up with the whole couple of hours of nonsense for the sake of 'aber der richtige'.

David you’re probably not lost for ideas, but in case… a variation on composers and the quality of their compositions. Shostakovich has written jazz music, jazz suite No.1 and 2. It’s nice, sort of jazz, but it isn’t. Are there any other composers that composed a piece in a style that just wasn’t.

What I don't understand about the Corronation mass is why it has been recorded so much. Is it just a sense of obligation? Markevitch recorded it twice!

David...what do you think of Tchaikovsky's Suites for Orchestra?....I find them all extremely charming! 4 more Symphonic works from Russia's greatest symphonist.

I'd rather choose "Triumphlied" as the worst thing Brahms ever wrote. Rinaldo may be boring, but the "Triumphlied" is boring and, on top of that, boastingly chauvinistic to the point of embarassment. And it's almost half an hour long, so there's another rather large-scale work that gets largely ignored, and for a good reason. And I adore Brahms. He's the reason I got into classical music.

Having listened to "Joseph and his Brethren" again (by Robert King), I agree it is not a masterpiece. I found two pieces of interest : the second part of the Ouverture (beautiful !) and the aria "O lovely youth". Not much, but nevertheless valuable for a Handel lover !

Oh, I can think of worse pablum by Wagner. Consider, for example his American Centennial March. He admitted he was mailing it in and only took the commission because he was broke after the first Bayreuth festival, but you don't have to know that to be able to tell from hearing it.

When you reached Beethoven, I thought you might have selected "Wellington's Victory".

I'm surprised you didn't mention Ravel's Tzigane.

I thought I knew my Brahms, too! Not "Rinaldo", though.. I've always thought that a Puritanical strain was why he didn't write a stage piece. My list would include Dvorak's Symphony #2 and Elgar's "In the South", the latter as representative of his several overblown and meandering works.

You'd take Friedenstag over Arabella?

So glad you didn't say Chopin's first sonata. I love that sonata so much, yet it's so hated.

"Yes it's wordy and it goes on too long, but that's true of almost everything Strauss wrote." T-shirt?

Yes! Persephone is gorgeous; and I think that is as much a problem as a narrator. If it was by another composer it would be more popular, its not what people expect from Stravinsky. It's too Ravelian for what people expect from IS. Maybe the Polish symphony is gaining popularity. In the past several years the only Tchaikovsky played by the local symphony orchestra has been the 3rd and the 6th. But they're doing 6 again this year, so maybe not.

I love the Polish symphony, great melodies, very underrated for me. Definitely my favourite of his first three and I think it should be much better known. Tchaikovsky will have done some much more boring works for me in his chamber music and other genres.

As to my own list, Elgar’s Haydn Variations have always bored me to tears.

I think the point you make around 9:45 is why Rienzi is not, in fact, Wagner's least interesting work. I believe it’s worth the time of people who are interested in his mature works to hear what it was exactly he pushed himself to move past, and even to discern what of that he kept with him. Rienzi or even Die Feen (barf) are worth submitting to once or twice for that reason. Even the American Centennial March commands a morbid fascination in that it's for real a product of the same deeply principled artistic force as delivered Tristan or The Ring. Interesting! Like mold! What everyone should definitely not worry about experiencing for themselves is his Symphony in C; a nullity which could be charitably described as missing time, like people who have been abducted by aliens describe. That thing, there is nothing interesting about.

Triple Concerto, Arabella, Martyre de saint Sébastien, such disappointments. I did not know of Joseph and his Brethren or Rinaldo.

I certainly think Beethoven’s Wellington’s Siege is unmemorable. I can remember the tune of the last mvt of the Triple Concerto but very little about “Siege”!

Prokofiev 3rd symphony. Only 2nd movement worth something

I'm not sure about Mozart not having a spiritual sense. Maybe he didn't but what, for example, was he thinking or feeling when he wrote Laudate Dominum K339? It sounds 'spiritual' to me (whatever 'spiritual' means) even if he was not thinking of The Great Man (or woman) Upstairs or even the price of fish.

I totally disagree with your take on the Coronation Mass. I think it is joyful and succinct and more successful than the Requiem. I especially like the section in the Credo that movingly describes Christ’s suffering and then the surprise/shock of the resurrection.

So perhaps it’s not major, or perhaps it’s more fun, but what about Beethoven’s Wellington’s Victory? Maybe that’s “interesting”; it definitely feels a bit trashy.

Funny that it seems the only way Mozart would come up with something totally uninteresting was to deliberately demonstrate his utter indifference to the whole project. i'll have to revisit some of his liturgical music and find those spots where he's thumbing his nose at expectations.

Part 2 of Mahler 8 is on my list.

The triple concerto. Yes, not the most inspired thing. But more interesting, by far, than Christ on the Mount of Olives. That's a bore-fest of Rinaldovian proportions! I've tried to get through it three times now. Twice I gave up and switched it off, once my mind gave up and switched me off, meaning I woke up to the sudden and blissful silence. I see there is now a second list, so who knows - this might already be on it. Apologies if so, but this one just cried out for a mention.

Of all of these works gy undeniably great composers of your tensome, "Rienzi", for me, is the most frustraing of them. That opera can be thrilling if a few conditions are in place: abridge it (to mere shreds, even), leaving just enough to carry on the plot and to convey all of the really nice nusical numbers amidst the dross, and (2) cast it with the most splendid, resonant yet musical tenors in the world (of the order of Helge Roswänge, Jess Thomas, James King, Wolfgang Windgassen, that is to say, the most undeniably, gleamingly heroic, effortlessly stupendous Wagnerian tenors of all times in the title role, Then this opera has a fighting chance of making its potentially, thrilling effect. Otherwise, this opera is a complete dud.

Finally someone who tells it like it is regarding the Coronation Mass! To think that Haydn wrote so many great masses which are never performed, and instead we get the Coronation Mass just because it's Mozart. The Credo especially is mechanical, soulless music.

I find the premise of this video to be not very consistent. What exactly is it that puts certain works in this list? You said it's not about personal taste but the verdict of history---when a certain work is just neglected and seldomly performed. You certainly can't say that about Mozart's Coronation Mass, because it's being performed over and over again. It is generally regarded as the most important of Mozart's breve masses. There are hundreds of recordings of it, every bigger "Kantorei" sings it, I sang it with my school choir when I was a boy. I played the bassoon in several performances, I sang the tenor solo part in the Abbey of Limburg/Lahn under the presence of the Archbishop of Limburg. The Coronation Mass really is all around, so you can hardly say that musical history has spoken out its verdict and condemnation over this piece. So, I think, you putting it on the list comes just from you not liking it very much, could that be? You said nobody would care if it weren't by Mozart but some other forgotten composer. Well, but it IS by Mozart, and music history is treating it like a master piece by Mozart. One certainly is allowed to argue about its qualities---or the lack of them. One may like it or not. But under the premises of your video the Coronation Mass shouldn't be on the list, because this thing definitely is out there in the repertoire with a firm status and recognition. Besides that I totally agree with most of the pieces on your list.

I agree that Mozart’s liturgical music is pretty dull, but I have a soft spot for the Coronation mass for some reason (certainly more than I do for the Coronation piano concerto, which is one of the few of his concerti that I do not like) possibly because I find his next mass, the Missa Aulica (K337), intolerable (even worse that Beethoven’s Mass in C).

LOVE Debussy's Martyre, especially the Munch recording of excerpts and the Michael Tilson Thomas disc of the complete thing. Granted, the d' Annunzio libretto sucks, but the music I find both vulgar (not a bad thing) and gorgeous. The final psalm is glorious.

I agree about Persephone. It’s probably underrated. Personally I enjoy Persephone more than Oedipus Rex or Apollon Musagéte, and Orpheus more than any of them. Maybe the narrator is the main problem. Narrators are often a bad idea, and Persephone’s narrator is more obtrusive than the narrator of “The Soldier’s Tale”, who only occasionally speaks directly over the music. Personally I’m a huge fan of Bernstein’s “Kaddish” Symphony. But whenever I’ve tried to get friends into it, it’s the narration which turns them off. And I understand. There’s probably a whole video to be made on narrators in concert music.

Enjoyable and informative! I have a few runners-up and other suggestions: Mozart: Concertone for Two Violins and Orchestra - Mozart really phoned this one in; small wonder that it’s not known, and the glorious violin-and-viola Sinfonia Concertante is. Tchaikovsky: Piano Concerto No. 2, and, his Piano Sonata - I love his music so much, and personally adore the Symphony No. 3 (a marvelously-constructed work, by the way, that uses a four-note motif skillfully in every movement). The Concerto No. 2 and the Sonata, both of which have their moments, are far less interesting to me than the Third. Ravel: Sonata for Violin and Cello - dry as a bone. Bernstein: Divertimento, and, Arias and Barcarolles - two of those late pieces where he coasted and relied on oft-used formulae; the latter is saddled with some particularly cringeworthy “poetry” by the composer himself. Thanks for reading.

I enjoy Arabella, the final scene is tremendously moving especially the music as she descends the staircase. I forgive him a lot for that. The second act after the soprano/bartitone duet is pretty bad, I admit and Fiakermilli could be the most annoying character in all opera. Sorry, I can do without Schweigsame Frau. That 'Potpourri' beginning is trash and the rest of the opera is equally futile. But even worse is the Schlagobers ballet which makes Josephslegende seem like a masterpiece. Rienzi Overture always reminds me not of Rossini but Auber's Masaniello Overture, ditto much of the rest on the opera. But Liebesverbot is a much more interesting work and a wale of a lot of fun. Ah, La Rondine. What a mistake, except that the second act is brilliant and perfect New Year's Eve entertainment. I accept your criterion of uninteresting as applied to Brahms' Rinaldo. But far worse is the utterly repugnant Triumphlied. Horrible text and Brahms' in a tub thumping mood as he is almost nowhere else. But maybe that's a separate category of composer awfulness?

I was sure that Beethoven’s Mass in C would make the list. Lots of folks love that piece - I find it terribly boring.

Verdi's Alzira...

Surprised that the dream of gerontius didn't make this list, i guess lo born clods has some redemable quality. Liszt Christus has to be on this list. 3 hours of nothing happening. The other thing that La Rondine has going against it is that the big tune comes and goes in the first 15 minutes and that's it. He learned from this mistake in La Fanciulla, at least there the big aria is at the end.

My entry for Beethoven has always been the op.49/2 sonata in G major. The op.49/1 sonata is great (as are all the other 31), but its sibling? So boring. Perhaps it's too slight to be worth the honor of being added to such an illustrious list, but what adds to its case is its ubiquity: how many burgeoning piano students were introduced to Beethoven through this second-rate Clementi? I know I was.

Coronation Mass may be overrated & much of Mozart's sacred music uninteresting (his heart wasn't often in it), but one cannot blanket-dismiss before considering the best of his 1770s Salzburg wks: the Litanies and Vespers. Not just the best-known lit K243 & vesp K339 (ft. the famous Laudate Dominum), but their fresh & bright predecessors K125 & K321 which deserve more hearings. Discs by Estonian Phil Ch. Choir, cond. Kaljuste on Carus have been ear-openers for me; lovely soloists & choir with none of the heaviness of some older recordings.

Wagner's absolutely worst piece was the march he wrote on commission for the US bicentennial. Maybe it's so bad that it makes it more "interesting" than Rienzi? And you think the Triple Concerto is worse than Wellington's Victory?