You need to do a video on the “no sub mixes” rule because it looks like we don’t get it.

I don’t think math supports the theory about avoiding sub-buses per se - whatever phase issue you might create in your group by processing a track in the group is still going to happen identically if you sum everything in one mixbus. I have however noticed that you can cause audible issues with effect sends and sub-buses as the two can get out of phase when you have processing applied to the sub bus and that same processing is not being applied to the signal that is send to the send effects and this could be an issue you can hear.

I would add a disclaimer to the "mixing food groups" / sub-busses point. A lot of engineers, mixers etc on social media recommend doing this. I would say - if it works for you, great, go for it. But there are tons of engineers who DO mix food groups and produce outstanding mixes. Particularly in heavier styles of music with lots of compression. Take this advice with a grain of salt because it's not necessarily going to be the difference between a good or bad mix.

I am behind the bop test. I personally aim for goosebumps, shortness of breath, etc. But yeah, if the music isn't giving you a visceral physical reaction then I think the song either isn't good enough to release (if it's my material) or it isn't finished yet. I hear the shortcomings in some of my older work, but I still get goosebumps for a lot of it and I'm OK with all those songs/mixes.

I don't get the argument against sub busses... what's the difference wether you do something on a channel or a bus. If you create phase issues i'd guess it doesn't matter where you do it.

I agree with most of the things you say but sub busses vs vca for me is just not the same at all. Yes the phase might fly off and it happens in sound all the time but i just cant navigate in a session of 100 tracks just like shuffled book pages without chapters. And that makes me a bad reader of that book. If I can not find things easy, im not going to be able to read such book. Vcas do not fold or contain, they do not freeze. Its only up to you to use bus plugins or not for that phase relation issue, but having no busses is like having no furniture at home!!! Just think about it

Add me to the list of "what no submix buses?" - that's a creative tourniquet in my mind. First time I've ever heard this to be honest... and I'm old! 😁

Never stop the air drumming! It's the best!

Man, honestly, this has been my favorite KZfaq channel regarding mixing and mastering. I usually don’t even comment, but apart from what you’ve been doing lately, I would love to see more start-to-finish projects where you explain your process, be it in mixing or mastering. That would really help.

Can you make a video on food group buss vs vca parallel mixing

I do not agree with the notion that using Sub Buses is a bad thing at all, I think the situation in Mixing being 'So analytical" eventually will drive you so nutz and paranoid, because at the end of the day that is the nature of audio, everything has a side effect, is the nature in most things in life, I can talk about so many plugins and popular techniques that have a side Effx, parallel Channels have a huge side effx too, Mid side processing as well, that is why Mastering legend Howie Weinberg do not use it... the main idea is to know if the positives are greater than the sides effects in any tool or technique

Again your idea of not using sub buses do not make sense, because if you EQ 3 stereo tracks of the Drum Group, like Room, Overheads, far room, that are 3 stereo tracks against the rest of the mix vs 1 Stereo Track , the Drums sub group......

The one plugin I have found to be troublesome across busses is a stereo widener/Haas effect. Widening at every bus level has to be done judiciously considering the 2 bus will have widening as well, perhaps. This, more than EQ, is something I have noticed to be problematic and would recommend others be cautious of. You took a lot of heat for the No Bus rule. I'm not going to cry. I'm just going to try this approach on my next mix and see what the results are. Great video.

My only question about the "no sub bus" rule is how do you acheive counter pumping without those sub busses? I dont think using brauer's method is always useful but I do think that sound is desirable in certain situations and for me it feels like its worth the effort.

Thanks for the video however I'm a bit confused. You recently posted a video titled "The EXACT Science of Mixing Drums Perfectly!" in which you talk about top-down mixing and EQ-ing the drums as a whole using a bus. In that case it makes sense due to phase issues, however in this video you say you don't use buses at all. Could you clarify this? Cheers!

Please create an in depth video on your No Sub Bus theory. I can't imagine not using sub-busses. Strapping a LA2A across a mixed drum bus sometimes makes the drums sound "right." I sat in on a mixing master class with Kevin Killen. He must have had over a dozen sub busses. Many times he fed a bus from other busses. Sometimes he used sub-busses to enable creating effects in a certain way. The demonstration was mind blowing. The album? Peter Gabriel's So.

Wow, unlimited revisions is INSANE and bad for the profession, I give 2 revisions after my mix and 99% of my clients never pass 2 revisions, actually helps them to be focus in what they want and if they give me a list of 10 things to tweak, that is not even the norm for me, it is is fine, I rather get 2 revisions with 25 tweaks to make in each than get 20 revisions with 7 tweaks....

The detail in your videos is great mate, and the angles you come at things too. Nothing negative to comment here; just that your attention to detail shines through and that you approach things in a way others don't compared to other audio channels. Cheers bud!

No limiting rule skipped!! Lets discuss: I used to leave out this to a later stage and it never worked as expected. I started measuring out the limiting portion in the beginning and clamping everything down as intended at the last stage, but without any volume increase. If that clamping is made at -6dbfs that means any tool can then just grab the sound as is and make it louder by that amount. This also means no wild transformations of sound when brought up to the brickwall. Also means the ‘demo love’ aspect remains as is. Whats your position? Come with an update - I will be waiting bruh :)

Like others are saying, your comment about sub-bussing is confusing. Different groups of instruments are different enough in waveforms that there's already destructive and constructive sample summing, no matter where in the chain they sum. It's not true that they re-sum as if the channels get separated and then added back together, the summed signal of one bus gets summed with the other summed signal of other buses.

Doing this professionally for 12 years, I have to agree with most people here. Not using sub busses has more disadvantages than advantages. There’s so many possibilities they unlock especially when you want to create space or tie things together. If you need to go so insane with an eq on a bus that it changes the phase relationship to a point where it makes elements disappear… then the things going into the bus are not ready and need more work themselves before even reaching the sub bus. Also, it’s important to understand how eq actually changes phase and what is the impact of that. For example, low cutting the instruments group that have no bass will change nothing in the relationship with the bass group which is all bass because the phase change is happening at a point where there is no information to be flipped and affect the low end of the bass. While eq-ing the bass group will change the kick and bass relationship, most cases it makes no sense anyway to hard eq a bass group when you can eq the bass individual tracks. But that changes phase anyway. So… the question is… is the phase ok after you did all your eq-s on individual instruments? Then… why would you want to do further eq-ing on the bass group? This is a complex discussion and when it comes to beginners, they have way more to lose from not using sub groups/busses then from using them. I always say there are no rules in mixing, but only guidelines.

Linear phase eq can solve problems with bus processing

I would love an entire video dedicated to the phase relationship and digital summing issues of sub busses. Hearing this, I have some skepticism, but I’d love to be proven wrong! I am always wanting to improve and enjoy your content.

1:05 That's why I love you

Using sub busses is the only way to control big file projects unless you’re used to work with stems which already been summed somewhere else! So your point is invalid! And controlling the dynamics on sub busses is simpler and faster and more efficient! And when it comes to to loudness, it’s the best method!

As it should be obvious from all the comments, a video about the sub-buss vs no buss + parallel processing is highly desirable. A lot of people rely on them, so it should be obvious if there is an objective advantage, or simply a workflow/preference thing. For ex. the summing thing I simply do not get, as with perfect digital summing (as all DAWs do), A + B + C + D + E + F + G == (A + B + C + D) + (E + F + G). In addition, any phase shifting processing done on the mix bus will shift the phase equally for all of the signals together, while done on the individual channels will not necessarily, only with 100% identical settings. And if you have an AUX for all of the drums, wouldn't that in any case do the same thing as in a sub-bus case? The only difference is that you can control the amount with the fader, but how is that any different than a dry/wet control on the bus?

the BOP test!! lezz go!

I would love to see an in depth look into gain staging theory in the sense of knowing when an element is sitting right within the mix and simply needs eqing versus when that entire element needs to be changed from a volume perspective. I know it’s somewhat abstract but I think it could be useful to hear your thoughts on it.

No subs? Not gonna lie, your advice/argument is compelling. I would love to see a video that demonstrates the differences in a real world mix (IOW, not doing it using sine waves). Talk about a video that could blow up.... You might change a LOT of people's workflows.

Awesome content as always! Agree on everything but for me the conclusion why sub-busses are in principal bad, is not ideal. But I agree that the idea of having many busses like snare bus with 5 snares, kick bus with 4 kicks, feeding a drum bus feeding an instrumental rear bus feeding a mix bus into last but not least a master bus with processing on all busses is creating a really big mess. Been there done that and when I studied how my favorite records were mixed, it was mostly on an analog console without much bussing only with some parallel busses going on like you described your template. I went back from using no busses to using them only as folders (like you your vca faders) without mostly any processing on them because in the DAW of my choice (Reaper) you can print out stems with just one go when you select more than one track. So that I get stems out quickly for the next recording session, feedback session or different versions like an instrumental, loud, normal version etc. For me the real reason why busses are bad is that if you have anything on the bus, changing a bit inside the bus on a single track will often have less impact than the move on the bus, but when you change the move on the bus ever so slightly after you made some changes inside too everything will fall apart really quickly as those small changes could go a really long run when you change it on the bus. best example is a compressor on a bus. if you raise the volume of a track inside the bus where the compressor is on, the compressor will work harder on this track pulling it back down, but if you raise the threshold afterwards because you see that the compressor is working to hard and is pumping the imbalance will get bigger and bigger the higher you put the treshold. Also if I understand the engineering part correct behind phase correlations, as long as it is not a really low frequency overlap phase shifts dont do much on channels that arent correlated (eg. a vocal and complete separated guitar part) but the masking effect will for sure. and on busses the 2db eq move will go a much longer way than the 2db move on a single guitar either making more space for eg. the vocal or clouding it more. but this is happening anyway, it is just a bit more obvious on whole busses. But nonetheless you have inspired me going deeper in the engineering and also getting more involved in mastering, way before this video! Thanks!

Agreed, except for the busses, unless I'm missing some kind of specific context. If you do something that actually causes a phase shift, that may or may not actually be a problem. If it is a problem, you'll hear it....and you'll naturally not do that thing. Dan Worrall has a series of videos about parallel EQ techniques that are worth a watch as well as some responding to people who made that exact criticism. Everything else is gold, especially the bop test. I guess I don't read the comments enough, but the closest thing to a criticism I have for you doing that is that very occasionally, it seems forced. But, even then, it seems like you're "feeling it out" to see if it's there yet. And that....I totally agree with.

I’m unconvinced about your “no sub-busses” rule. You’ve mentioned this before, calling it (derogatorily) “food-group mixing”. Have you done a video explaining exactly What you think is happening, and exactly how you think VCAs are solving a problem most of us don’t know exists?

Great insight! Thanks! #9 is actually so important. Some engineers forget they are mixing music!:)

The sound of modern mixing is often very much dependent on that idea of sub busses, especially things like processing across a drum buss where you want it reacting to the whole kit as a submix. Often yes people overdo it and have too many sub busses or too much processing going on for each (e.g the audio KZfaqr obsession with 'top down mixing') But your phase argument about busses is just as true for individual tracks too (see video "Mind-Blowing Mixing Concept - Fader is Equalizer" by Andrew Zeleno). At the end of the day we're creating an output of 2 tracks (Stereo) and any one change in balance and eq on a single track or group can radically alter the whole mix...

8:10 woaaah man you just blew my mind; I’ve been keeping a personal journal wayyyy before I started mixing, but I’m now doing this same practice after I get a track done!

also, if you’re using parallel busses as a solution to the phase rotation issue - its not a solution at all. it could potentially lead to even more phasing issues

Great video. I just don’t like mixing into busses but my technique just doesn’t rely on it. For the curious below I wonder if it’s something you can show?

Rather than saying don't use busses, wouldn't it be better to say don't eq the busses? 🤔

How do you know that issue with sub bus mixing isnt just a pro tools delay compensation issue? Or a problem of both the mix bus and subs being too heavy handed (i think it helps to let one or the other do more of the work)

ngl... If you're at all producing and mixing electronic music, I think phase issues are an overblown problem... I wouldnt be saying this if I mixed rock albums though. I literally just mix hip-hop/pop/R&B, stuff with drum samples and whatnot. So I guess I'm saying I disagree with the no sub groups cuz of phase issues point... I just flip polarity on kick to see if it hits harder with the bass, and move on LOL. Sometimes flip polarity after aggressive EQ to see if it sounds better... Thats about it.

You’re the best! I really appreciate you. Thanks for your work. Don’t change a thing. Best wishes - Tim

Good channel, but strongly disagree with your opinion against sub busses, use ears not science....

Could you please make video about the rule 2 it was really interesting but I did not quite understand it

Cool video. I don't agree with Rule #4, based on my 20 years of experience in mixing. If a mix takes more than 5-7 workdays to finish (which is already A LOT) - it's not going to work, ever. If you're an advanced, experienced mixer, your first approach to a mix is always the best, you follow your gut, your taste and guidelines given by the artist. If that doesn't work - you're not the right man for the job. Tell that to the artist straight away. Of course you can waste another 3 months going back and forth with the client - the mix will suck anyway and the artist won't ever come back to you.

the idea of not using sub groups/Bus is not so wrong, often the biggest problem is introduced by the plugins and the processing used on the groups. it's a problem of micro calculation errors, we are all used to believing that the mathematics and programming behind the DAW and the plugins are perfect, but this is not the case. How many times have you heard your mix getting more and more foggy? and you don't understand what it comes from... it could often be derived from phase and synchronization problems of the audio that passes through the plugins on groups. Unfortunately this also happens with parallel path

Hi! I do enjoy your videos and learnt a bunch. But could you, please, explain how does adding a parallel channel does NOT affect the phase realationship in a group of channels? Say, i want to add some 4kHz to my vocal and i use parallel technique to do that. Are you saying that would not create new phase relationship between my vocals and my guitars?

i am allergic to people's squeamishness around limiting or compressing or clipping more than like 3db.

can you do a tutorial on your bus processing, with how you are explaining in rule 2,

You should’ve known you’d get a fuck ton of backlash for the sub mixes rule. I’m with everyone else. Sub mixes are a must. Even if I only have a limiter or a clipper on the sub I find it super necessary.

Hello I read some comments you said you'll get another video on sub groups (#3 don't use sub groups). I saw a lot of video but it doesn't seem to be done for now... isn't it ? or if it is what's the name of the video where you extend on that point ? thanks for your amazing content

A whole video on #3 please! The why and the how

This channel is phenomenal! Always valuable information. These small improvements have absolutely taken my mixes/masters that extra few % . I really appreciate everything you do. Keep up the great work! 🙏🏼🎛

Thanks for the video. I'd be very interested to learn about what your workflow for dealing with harsh resnoances in a vocal is. I have one client whose voice has tonnes of this stuff - pointy whistle tones between 1kHz and 2kHz, harsh scratchy stuff at 3 - 4.5 kHz, buzzing wasp sounds at 5 - 7 kHz and brittle stuff from 8kHz and up. Dynamic eq cuts and plugins like soothe can't seem to satisfactorily fix these issues without making the vocal sound terribly unnatural. So, I end up having to automate cuts and each of these frequencies every time they appear. I sometimes end up with 20 - 30 eq bands being automated! This doesn't seem right but if I don’t do this, the vocal will sound really unpleasant and if I take a shortcut (like soothe), the vocal sounds weird. The singer is great and maybe i just need to accept that that's how his voice his . Any thoughts?

I get all of the deliverables except the TV mix. I'v heard you mention this a couple of times. Is it just a clean version? Different vocal level?

I’d love to know if anyone is using the no subgroups rule in Ableton and how they go about it? 🧐 super interesting!

All this insight is so helpful, thanks so much fella! Quick one, are you (the industry pros) being sent mixes with the limiter left on? E.g. I mix through a clean pro-L2… if I like the sound before sending it to mastering, should I ever really be sending an unlimited mix?

Hey! Could you please do a video on best learning materials for those who might not be able to afford classes, but could buy and study books. I've read most of common ones recommended online, but they didn't work for me!!! 🎉🎉a

On Sub Busses, is there not an argument to be made that phase-linear processes are acceptable or that momentary changes such as a limiter that just catches occasional peaks due to summing or sidechain ducking are not going to be destructive enough to be a problem?

Excellent video and food for thought! When I first saw the list at the beginning of the video, I thought rule #5 was "No Limiting" as in "No Limiters" and was looking forward to seeing your reasoning haha. "No Limits" is much better though :)

The problem with no bussing is your can't glue tracks together with the same compressor.

The sub bus thing only applies cause he's using protools. Also you're so silly for saying unlimited revisions. A workman is worthy of his hire ( commercial law maxim). You give good advice generally but I think you're over philosophizing yourself. Somethings are really not that deep man. So many clients don't know what they want, you have to be able to help them understand their own vision. My clients trust me and if you're really that good then you won't need to do 100 revisions or work long hours or do the most. You'll just perform.

people really don't get summing hahah guys, it's just that: a sum, there is no magic voodoo behind it. doing 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 or doing (1 + 1) + ( 1 + 1) it's always going to be 4, surprise surprise.

I get so many heat with the loudness theme lol. I always get to the conclution that good music and good mix can be loud pettry easy lol. is not about they need it or not, but can be loud easily.

Enjoyed this! Just need you to do a step by step idiots guide and I'll be ok!

Everything else you said is very on point, but your argument against sub busses was in contrast poorly founded. Everything sums together eventually, and the summing being in stages through buses isn't what is going to make or break it, and if you know what you're doing with the processing you add on these buses, you're probably helping your mix come together more than hurting it. Just the action of busing things doesn't affect anything without processing applied. You stated that you change EQ settings on a sound and hear the effect elsewhere. What you're describing is just the biggest central challenge of mixing, because everything affects everything, with or without buses. We have to somehow get all our sounds and their most important characteristics to be clearly present through a couple of vibrating cones, in a way that is not only clear, but musical. That's easier said than done, especially since we have to also account for the tricks our ears play on us, psycho-acoustic phenomena, etc. I personally find sub buses to be invaluable. A slight touch of compression on a drum bus can be the difference between a kit sounding like a decent but disconnected group of sounds, and sounding like one cohesive unit working together to give a pulse to your track. It is true that you shouldn't always bus process just because, but if you have a legitimate justification for the purpose of doing it, go ahead and do it. If you're just looking to link volume fader movements without need for bus processing, that's where VCAs come in to play.

😂 well you got my interaction. "Rule no2 NEVER use EQ's"

Actually sub busses are the best thing ever and I use it daily. Want to compress and clip acoustic drums before the go into the mix bus compressor? Boom, do it on your drum bus instead of inserting a clipper on the master bus only or on every drum track individually (which doesn't even make sense). When I want to ride all the drums volume across the song I do it on my drums bus fader, the same with vocal harmonies grup etc. Never had any issues.

gotta go tell tchad blake, michael brauer, jaycen joshua, andy scheps not to use busses. they are noobs ya know

What! No Sub busses! Nah I totally disagree to be honest. I dont use eq on sub busses so phasing is not an issue and if it is we will hear that. I also need busses to be send to my Neve Orbit to be summed with analog flavor……….. but having phasing issues can happen everywhere in the mix and you need to learn how to hear that to prevent it from happening…… Cheers