You need to do a video on the “no sub mixes” rule because it looks like we don’t get it.
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
I think I do. Leave it with me. I think the topic deserves not only my take on it, but me to remain open minded to address a lot of the commentary people have about it in a constructive way!
@amusik75 ай бұрын
I don’t think math supports the theory about avoiding sub-buses per se - whatever phase issue you might create in your group by processing a track in the group is still going to happen identically if you sum everything in one mixbus. I have however noticed that you can cause audible issues with effect sends and sub-buses as the two can get out of phase when you have processing applied to the sub bus and that same processing is not being applied to the signal that is send to the send effects and this could be an issue you can hear.
@MrMarcoGonzales5 ай бұрын
not only that you alter 6 channels in the drums for example is more than altering the sub group as in "stereo" track, I think sometimes this channel, that I like goes too much "scientific" not in the best way...
@TheChromaticz3555 ай бұрын
You sum the send fx to the same bus where the individual signal is going! So you control them as whole thing! Of course always if you know what you’re doing!!
@AlexSzokolyai3 ай бұрын
Yes. This! I have never had issues with sub busses but I have definitely ran into issues with aux sends when I wasn’t using linear phase processing
@alphabetsoup0025 ай бұрын
I would add a disclaimer to the "mixing food groups" / sub-busses point. A lot of engineers, mixers etc on social media recommend doing this. I would say - if it works for you, great, go for it. But there are tons of engineers who DO mix food groups and produce outstanding mixes. Particularly in heavier styles of music with lots of compression. Take this advice with a grain of salt because it's not necessarily going to be the difference between a good or bad mix.
@jamespingel87305 ай бұрын
I am behind the bop test. I personally aim for goosebumps, shortness of breath, etc. But yeah, if the music isn't giving you a visceral physical reaction then I think the song either isn't good enough to release (if it's my material) or it isn't finished yet. I hear the shortcomings in some of my older work, but I still get goosebumps for a lot of it and I'm OK with all those songs/mixes.
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
The bop test is everything that matters!
@fftunes5 ай бұрын
I don't get the argument against sub busses... what's the difference wether you do something on a channel or a bus. If you create phase issues i'd guess it doesn't matter where you do it.
@timsarlos64035 ай бұрын
Yes
@claviustube5 ай бұрын
Same here, In fact, it seems logical that individual phase changes can be more dangerous than changes in the entire auxiliary channel, with the phase correlation already established between elements (for example BD in and out channels)
@phadrus5 ай бұрын
Apparently the issue is the cumulative effect of summing at multiple stages. I don’t understand how it works either and have my doubts that the cons outweigh the pros of using sub buses, as has been used for decades. Would be cool to see a video go into depth on this topic.
@mrjsounds5 ай бұрын
I think that having sub busses is really beneficial. It varies between the DAW's how you can set them up but they actually provide coherence to sound and are great with conjuction with VCA's. Of course you can mess up the sound but it is the same case with individual tracks. Phase relationship is very easy to see between Kick & Bass. My approach is simple (Drum Bus,Bass Bus,Instrument Bus ,Vocal Bus,FX Bus)-> Mix Bus-> Master Bus. Thanks to this approach i can do Production & Mixing & Mastering all in one session. But let's assume Nicks approach where he only has dry signal and the changes he makes are mixed into dry signal. This approach will lead unexperienced mixing/mastering engineers to have even more phasing issues than if you put something on a whole bus. Just my few cents. Love the channell as it provides good knowledge but this one tip might be off a bit...
@RobertRyda5 ай бұрын
I agree. Its just easier to get off with a single sound being crazy out from the whole bunch. But when buss phase goes wrong it is the whole bunch that gets crazy i understand. For me its just a process in which its convenient. Phase issues of sounds should be the headache of plugin and hardware creators so we do not need to think about wave physics! And yet its just the reality
@RobertRyda5 ай бұрын
I agree with most of the things you say but sub busses vs vca for me is just not the same at all. Yes the phase might fly off and it happens in sound all the time but i just cant navigate in a session of 100 tracks just like shuffled book pages without chapters. And that makes me a bad reader of that book. If I can not find things easy, im not going to be able to read such book. Vcas do not fold or contain, they do not freeze. Its only up to you to use bus plugins or not for that phase relation issue, but having no busses is like having no furniture at home!!! Just think about it
@RobertRyda5 ай бұрын
P.S: As a pro tools user (logic pertains to this) I use routing foldable FOLDERS as busses. This is the convenience im talkinbout
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
I feel you. Some interesting takes here ! Super fair !
@G_handle5 ай бұрын
Just wanna say that I really like your Book (Mix) / Chapters (Sub-Groups) / Pages (Individual Channels) analogy! I learned it as Three-Tier Mixing, and it’s usually explained as a pyramid or a cake, but I really like the Book analogy as it points to the information on the pages and how they’re organized into chapters. Like a Mix. Good one…that will be stolen.
@mixphantom01015 ай бұрын
Add me to the list of "what no submix buses?" - that's a creative tourniquet in my mind. First time I've ever heard this to be honest... and I'm old! 😁
@Terminalbeats5 ай бұрын
Never stop the air drumming! It's the best!
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
I will never…
@chrt_aaron5 ай бұрын
Man, honestly, this has been my favorite KZfaq channel regarding mixing and mastering. I usually don’t even comment, but apart from what you’ve been doing lately, I would love to see more start-to-finish projects where you explain your process, be it in mixing or mastering. That would really help.
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
I think I have a mix I want to do start to end for a video!
@chrt_aaron5 ай бұрын
@@panorama_mastering That’s exciting!
@SuperFake7775 ай бұрын
Can you make a video on food group buss vs vca parallel mixing
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Yes we can! Yes I will!
@grimmcyph9325 ай бұрын
@@panorama_masteringthank you 🙏🏾
@bluematrix50015 ай бұрын
I do not agree with the notion that using Sub Buses is a bad thing at all, I think the situation in Mixing being 'So analytical" eventually will drive you so nutz and paranoid, because at the end of the day that is the nature of audio, everything has a side effect, is the nature in most things in life, I can talk about so many plugins and popular techniques that have a side Effx, parallel Channels have a huge side effx too, Mid side processing as well, that is why Mastering legend Howie Weinberg do not use it... the main idea is to know if the positives are greater than the sides effects in any tool or technique
@MrMarcoGonzales5 ай бұрын
100% agree
@bluematrix50015 ай бұрын
Again your idea of not using sub buses do not make sense, because if you EQ 3 stereo tracks of the Drum Group, like Room, Overheads, far room, that are 3 stereo tracks against the rest of the mix vs 1 Stereo Track , the Drums sub group......
@afrohawk5 ай бұрын
The one plugin I have found to be troublesome across busses is a stereo widener/Haas effect. Widening at every bus level has to be done judiciously considering the 2 bus will have widening as well, perhaps. This, more than EQ, is something I have noticed to be problematic and would recommend others be cautious of. You took a lot of heat for the No Bus rule. I'm not going to cry. I'm just going to try this approach on my next mix and see what the results are. Great video.
@JazzyFizzleDrummers5 ай бұрын
My only question about the "no sub bus" rule is how do you acheive counter pumping without those sub busses? I dont think using brauer's method is always useful but I do think that sound is desirable in certain situations and for me it feels like its worth the effort.
@chris_share5 ай бұрын
Thanks for the video however I'm a bit confused. You recently posted a video titled "The EXACT Science of Mixing Drums Perfectly!" in which you talk about top-down mixing and EQ-ing the drums as a whole using a bus. In that case it makes sense due to phase issues, however in this video you say you don't use buses at all. Could you clarify this? Cheers!
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
You are correct. That’s the only time I use a group bus.
@MartinVipond5 ай бұрын
Please create an in depth video on your No Sub Bus theory. I can't imagine not using sub-busses. Strapping a LA2A across a mixed drum bus sometimes makes the drums sound "right." I sat in on a mixing master class with Kevin Killen. He must have had over a dozen sub busses. Many times he fed a bus from other busses. Sometimes he used sub-busses to enable creating effects in a certain way. The demonstration was mind blowing. The album? Peter Gabriel's So.
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Wonderful! YES! this is definitely on the cards!
@bluematrix50015 ай бұрын
Wow, unlimited revisions is INSANE and bad for the profession, I give 2 revisions after my mix and 99% of my clients never pass 2 revisions, actually helps them to be focus in what they want and if they give me a list of 10 things to tweak, that is not even the norm for me, it is is fine, I rather get 2 revisions with 25 tweaks to make in each than get 20 revisions with 7 tweaks....
@MrMarcoGonzales5 ай бұрын
make sense
@ronallen24585 ай бұрын
In his earlier video, he posts stats on the frequency of numbers of revisions. He is hitting two most of the time as well and the outliers don’t seem to be a problem yet. He might be forgetting about all the sleep he is missing though. :) He is a machine.
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Here’s all the data from 1 year and 100 mixes with an ublimited revision policiy; I tried unlimited mix revisions for 365 days kzfaq.info/get/bejne/pcd0oK19ybS9np8.html It worked out incredible well!
@bluematrix50015 ай бұрын
Cool will check that data, but in my case i never had an issue or a gig where the client said "only 2 revisions??" so why give unlimited revision, there may be people with insecurities or just that are not focused and that do not respect the time of people... @@panorama_mastering
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
I offer them, because it's not what I'm focused on and don't care for the number of revisions, because like you said, it's rarely a problem if the focus is on making a great record itself.
@updown52385 ай бұрын
The detail in your videos is great mate, and the angles you come at things too. Nothing negative to comment here; just that your attention to detail shines through and that you approach things in a way others don't compared to other audio channels. Cheers bud!
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Thanks man! Appreciate it!
@RobertRyda5 ай бұрын
No limiting rule skipped!! Lets discuss: I used to leave out this to a later stage and it never worked as expected. I started measuring out the limiting portion in the beginning and clamping everything down as intended at the last stage, but without any volume increase. If that clamping is made at -6dbfs that means any tool can then just grab the sound as is and make it louder by that amount. This also means no wild transformations of sound when brought up to the brickwall. Also means the ‘demo love’ aspect remains as is. Whats your position? Come with an update - I will be waiting bruh :)
@davidasher225 ай бұрын
I’m pretty sure he meant not limiting his mindset not literally “no limiters”.
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
David asher knows me too well!!!
@ZymanoKentaro5 ай бұрын
Like others are saying, your comment about sub-bussing is confusing. Different groups of instruments are different enough in waveforms that there's already destructive and constructive sample summing, no matter where in the chain they sum. It's not true that they re-sum as if the channels get separated and then added back together, the summed signal of one bus gets summed with the other summed signal of other buses.
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
I need and owe it to y’all to do better and clarify this topic in the future with a more open mind. Apologies
@alphabetsoup0025 ай бұрын
@@panorama_masteringThere is one particular mixer big on social media who I think we both know… the track labels in your template are identical to his and I recognized it instantly (VCAs called “vDrums” and auxes called“aVERB” etc). Also, he is famous for promoting this anti-food group philosophy, so I’m guessing you picked it up from him. I think you know who I’m talking about, and with all due respect, he’s wrong. Each to their own though.
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
@@alphabetsoup002 You're 100% on the money; and I even document adapting this practice from him in this video; kzfaq.info/get/bejne/Zt-kathe2r7beok.htmlsi=a-PRdLrN4rw22DV1 I think there's a lot of nuance to this discussion which I negligently left out!
@alphabetsoup0025 ай бұрын
@@panorama_masteringDon't beat yourself up man, this is always gonna be a controversial topic. I think it's an indication this is worth exploring, and presenting arguments for both. My advice to you is frame the video you'll make on this topic as "pros" and "cons" of each approach and take notes of the comments people have made because they are valid. You might be the only one on YT in history who can address this topic sufficiently.
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Noted, that's probably a little length out, but WILL happen.
@madsonit5 ай бұрын
Doing this professionally for 12 years, I have to agree with most people here. Not using sub busses has more disadvantages than advantages. There’s so many possibilities they unlock especially when you want to create space or tie things together. If you need to go so insane with an eq on a bus that it changes the phase relationship to a point where it makes elements disappear… then the things going into the bus are not ready and need more work themselves before even reaching the sub bus. Also, it’s important to understand how eq actually changes phase and what is the impact of that. For example, low cutting the instruments group that have no bass will change nothing in the relationship with the bass group which is all bass because the phase change is happening at a point where there is no information to be flipped and affect the low end of the bass. While eq-ing the bass group will change the kick and bass relationship, most cases it makes no sense anyway to hard eq a bass group when you can eq the bass individual tracks. But that changes phase anyway. So… the question is… is the phase ok after you did all your eq-s on individual instruments? Then… why would you want to do further eq-ing on the bass group? This is a complex discussion and when it comes to beginners, they have way more to lose from not using sub groups/busses then from using them. I always say there are no rules in mixing, but only guidelines.
@rodeointblud5 ай бұрын
Linear phase eq can solve problems with bus processing
@jeremyburnum86045 ай бұрын
At the expense of more cpu and pre ringing artifacts! Always a give and take here.
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Possibly so! This topic deserves me to dive deeper
@rodeointblud4 ай бұрын
@@jeremyburnum8604 well you always can print audio from bus and use plugins that allows you to have mix phase: linear phase from 1k and zero below 1k for ex. DMG Eqalibrium or Kirchhoff eq allows it. Or just use fabfilter with zero phase on low and linear for everything higher than 400. I like this technique a lot.
@AlexSzokolyai3 ай бұрын
I would love an entire video dedicated to the phase relationship and digital summing issues of sub busses. Hearing this, I have some skepticism, but I’d love to be proven wrong! I am always wanting to improve and enjoy your content.
@Walid.OnTheTrack67255 ай бұрын
1:05 That's why I love you
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Thanks m808!
@TheChromaticz3555 ай бұрын
Using sub busses is the only way to control big file projects unless you’re used to work with stems which already been summed somewhere else! So your point is invalid! And controlling the dynamics on sub busses is simpler and faster and more efficient! And when it comes to to loudness, it’s the best method!
@AlexLapugean5 ай бұрын
As it should be obvious from all the comments, a video about the sub-buss vs no buss + parallel processing is highly desirable. A lot of people rely on them, so it should be obvious if there is an objective advantage, or simply a workflow/preference thing. For ex. the summing thing I simply do not get, as with perfect digital summing (as all DAWs do), A + B + C + D + E + F + G == (A + B + C + D) + (E + F + G). In addition, any phase shifting processing done on the mix bus will shift the phase equally for all of the signals together, while done on the individual channels will not necessarily, only with 100% identical settings. And if you have an AUX for all of the drums, wouldn't that in any case do the same thing as in a sub-bus case? The only difference is that you can control the amount with the fader, but how is that any different than a dry/wet control on the bus?
@cedzimagination5 ай бұрын
the BOP test!! lezz go!
@seangill24135 ай бұрын
I would love to see an in depth look into gain staging theory in the sense of knowing when an element is sitting right within the mix and simply needs eqing versus when that entire element needs to be changed from a volume perspective. I know it’s somewhat abstract but I think it could be useful to hear your thoughts on it.
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Intersting topic, let me think about it!
@dumpedcabledumpedcable1165 ай бұрын
No subs? Not gonna lie, your advice/argument is compelling. I would love to see a video that demonstrates the differences in a real world mix (IOW, not doing it using sine waves). Talk about a video that could blow up.... You might change a LOT of people's workflows.
@nikipichler26075 ай бұрын
Awesome content as always! Agree on everything but for me the conclusion why sub-busses are in principal bad, is not ideal. But I agree that the idea of having many busses like snare bus with 5 snares, kick bus with 4 kicks, feeding a drum bus feeding an instrumental rear bus feeding a mix bus into last but not least a master bus with processing on all busses is creating a really big mess. Been there done that and when I studied how my favorite records were mixed, it was mostly on an analog console without much bussing only with some parallel busses going on like you described your template. I went back from using no busses to using them only as folders (like you your vca faders) without mostly any processing on them because in the DAW of my choice (Reaper) you can print out stems with just one go when you select more than one track. So that I get stems out quickly for the next recording session, feedback session or different versions like an instrumental, loud, normal version etc. For me the real reason why busses are bad is that if you have anything on the bus, changing a bit inside the bus on a single track will often have less impact than the move on the bus, but when you change the move on the bus ever so slightly after you made some changes inside too everything will fall apart really quickly as those small changes could go a really long run when you change it on the bus. best example is a compressor on a bus. if you raise the volume of a track inside the bus where the compressor is on, the compressor will work harder on this track pulling it back down, but if you raise the threshold afterwards because you see that the compressor is working to hard and is pumping the imbalance will get bigger and bigger the higher you put the treshold. Also if I understand the engineering part correct behind phase correlations, as long as it is not a really low frequency overlap phase shifts dont do much on channels that arent correlated (eg. a vocal and complete separated guitar part) but the masking effect will for sure. and on busses the 2db eq move will go a much longer way than the 2db move on a single guitar either making more space for eg. the vocal or clouding it more. but this is happening anyway, it is just a bit more obvious on whole busses. But nonetheless you have inspired me going deeper in the engineering and also getting more involved in mastering, way before this video! Thanks!
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
This is spot on too! I think I did that entire discussion a real disservice,
@5875839225 ай бұрын
Agreed, except for the busses, unless I'm missing some kind of specific context. If you do something that actually causes a phase shift, that may or may not actually be a problem. If it is a problem, you'll hear it....and you'll naturally not do that thing. Dan Worrall has a series of videos about parallel EQ techniques that are worth a watch as well as some responding to people who made that exact criticism. Everything else is gold, especially the bop test. I guess I don't read the comments enough, but the closest thing to a criticism I have for you doing that is that very occasionally, it seems forced. But, even then, it seems like you're "feeling it out" to see if it's there yet. And that....I totally agree with.
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Fair enough, thanks for sharing!
@G_handle5 ай бұрын
I’m unconvinced about your “no sub-busses” rule. You’ve mentioned this before, calling it (derogatorily) “food-group mixing”. Have you done a video explaining exactly What you think is happening, and exactly how you think VCAs are solving a problem most of us don’t know exists?
@alphabetsoup0025 ай бұрын
I agree. Personally, I find that having so many parallel chains / auxes and VCAs clogs up my session and doesn't work for me. This is not advice that is going to "change your life" as the title of the video states. If it was, then guys like Jaycen Joshua, Andrew Scheps, Zakk Cervini, CLA etc would be doing this. This type of advice confuses beginners.
@Maskaradas5 ай бұрын
Ive seen somebody talk about using groups and they told it causes transient smearing. Im not sure about that, I'm still about to graduate from noob zone.
@alphabetsoup0025 ай бұрын
@@Maskaradas Ignore that advice. The workflow in this video with using VCAs etc is advanced and not really suitable for a beginner. If you're not super experienced, I'd argue there is more risk of phase issues with using parallel auxes for everything than mixing through a sub-bus.
@G_handle5 ай бұрын
@alphabetsoup002 Precisely. Advising against Sub-Groups because of "Phase Issues", and Then advising for Parallels all over the place, without regard for actual Phase issues (dual paths being processed differently, like double micing, Can indeed result in time/Phase differences), this seems, let's say 'counterintuitive', or unconvincing.
@G_handle5 ай бұрын
@alphabetsoup002 I wouldn't advise Against VCAs though, or relegate them to 'Advanced Only'. VCAs are just another tool, that solve a different problem, or rather give you another way to control your mix.
@9Hansi35 ай бұрын
Great insight! Thanks! #9 is actually so important. Some engineers forget they are mixing music!:)
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Yeap! Need the bio!
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
*bop
@peterbondmusic5 ай бұрын
The sound of modern mixing is often very much dependent on that idea of sub busses, especially things like processing across a drum buss where you want it reacting to the whole kit as a submix. Often yes people overdo it and have too many sub busses or too much processing going on for each (e.g the audio KZfaqr obsession with 'top down mixing') But your phase argument about busses is just as true for individual tracks too (see video "Mind-Blowing Mixing Concept - Fader is Equalizer" by Andrew Zeleno). At the end of the day we're creating an output of 2 tracks (Stereo) and any one change in balance and eq on a single track or group can radically alter the whole mix...
@alphabetsoup0025 ай бұрын
Exactly - well said
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
You’re on point. I think I owe the discussion a more comprehensive and balances (pun intended) take on it. Because I don’t use sub buses and it’s served me exceptionally well
@G_handle5 ай бұрын
@@panorama_mastering Fair enough, but if you’re Not using Sub-Mixes because you think something is happening that isn’t happening, then you’re handicapping yourself for no reason. However, if you Are on to something, then as a KZfaqr if you could demonstrate that, you would be enlightening the entire mixing community and have a highly promoted video on your hands. I’ve been doing this since the late Eighties, and I’ve never heard anyone advise against using Sub-Groups as detrimental to your mix due to phase issues. I’ve also read a ton of Mixing Books and never seen it mentioned. So if it’s true, and you can demonstrate, you’ll be an Audio God. If you investigate further and discover, as we all occasionally do, that while there may be something to it, your takeaway from whatever Is there isn’t supported by the evidence. And you still win, because you gain a fundamental mixing technique back into your arsenal. I suspect that this is similar to the paranoia over Parallel EQ, once someone “sees” what’s happening to the phase on a scope. But your Speakers and Ears will tell you if there’s Actually anything wrong, and your fingers will follow your ears and find what sounds right. If it sounds good, it is good!
@peterbondmusic5 ай бұрын
Fair enough but there are some results you simply won't get without submixes. I should say that have sometimes used none and often very few... all depends on context /style / genre, but you shouldn't have it as a hard rule. @@panorama_mastering
@jghollowell45 ай бұрын
8:10 woaaah man you just blew my mind; I’ve been keeping a personal journal wayyyy before I started mixing, but I’m now doing this same practice after I get a track done!
@kimseniorb5 ай бұрын
also, if you’re using parallel busses as a solution to the phase rotation issue - its not a solution at all. it could potentially lead to even more phasing issues
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Any processing will cause a change in the waveform, having it in parallel allows you to control how much of that you’re blending in (yes there’s wet/dry nobs on plugins) but having a fader makes things easier
@richertz5 ай бұрын
Great video. I just don’t like mixing into busses but my technique just doesn’t rely on it. For the curious below I wonder if it’s something you can show?
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Yeap, I plan on it!
@kadiummusic5 ай бұрын
Rather than saying don't use busses, wouldn't it be better to say don't eq the busses? 🤔
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
I’ll dive into this deeper on a future video. I failed to present this in a balanced and constructive manner
@drumphenom114 ай бұрын
How do you know that issue with sub bus mixing isnt just a pro tools delay compensation issue? Or a problem of both the mix bus and subs being too heavy handed (i think it helps to let one or the other do more of the work)
@panorama_mastering4 ай бұрын
I owe this topic a proper deep dive; it isn't a delay compensation issue because even with plugins on but at unity I can null test with precision; Bear with me might be a little while out but will do a proper video diving into this;
@django31085 ай бұрын
ngl... If you're at all producing and mixing electronic music, I think phase issues are an overblown problem... I wouldnt be saying this if I mixed rock albums though. I literally just mix hip-hop/pop/R&B, stuff with drum samples and whatnot. So I guess I'm saying I disagree with the no sub groups cuz of phase issues point... I just flip polarity on kick to see if it hits harder with the bass, and move on LOL. Sometimes flip polarity after aggressive EQ to see if it sounds better... Thats about it.
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
The flip is king with kicks and 808’s!
@Themosaicsound5 ай бұрын
Phase is everything for a tight low end.
@django31085 ай бұрын
@@Themosaicsound it is really unlikely that ur picking bad drum samples if you know how to produce well... Those won't have phase issues, off jump.
@timbranniganmusic34585 ай бұрын
You’re the best! I really appreciate you. Thanks for your work. Don’t change a thing. Best wishes - Tim
@Phat-Monkey5 ай бұрын
Good channel, but strongly disagree with your opinion against sub busses, use ears not science....
@aceshigh0255 ай бұрын
Also, just mix into them…
@coledd94875 ай бұрын
Agreed
@audionerdlilcuz5 ай бұрын
Idk, I understood what he meant. Will try it once to see.
@thesourabh26725 ай бұрын
Yes agree
@konaritoikka5 ай бұрын
Could you please make video about the rule 2 it was really interesting but I did not quite understand it
@wdkbeats2 ай бұрын
Cool video. I don't agree with Rule #4, based on my 20 years of experience in mixing. If a mix takes more than 5-7 workdays to finish (which is already A LOT) - it's not going to work, ever. If you're an advanced, experienced mixer, your first approach to a mix is always the best, you follow your gut, your taste and guidelines given by the artist. If that doesn't work - you're not the right man for the job. Tell that to the artist straight away. Of course you can waste another 3 months going back and forth with the client - the mix will suck anyway and the artist won't ever come back to you.
@IvanoIcardiOfficial5 ай бұрын
the idea of not using sub groups/Bus is not so wrong, often the biggest problem is introduced by the plugins and the processing used on the groups. it's a problem of micro calculation errors, we are all used to believing that the mathematics and programming behind the DAW and the plugins are perfect, but this is not the case. How many times have you heard your mix getting more and more foggy? and you don't understand what it comes from... it could often be derived from phase and synchronization problems of the audio that passes through the plugins on groups. Unfortunately this also happens with parallel path
@bostonbul5 ай бұрын
Hi! I do enjoy your videos and learnt a bunch. But could you, please, explain how does adding a parallel channel does NOT affect the phase realationship in a group of channels? Say, i want to add some 4kHz to my vocal and i use parallel technique to do that. Are you saying that would not create new phase relationship between my vocals and my guitars?
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
It would create a new phase relationsip. I think I got a lot wrong on the way I presented this. Expect an updated video soon!
@bostonbul5 ай бұрын
@@panorama_mastering I wouldn't have beat on it if I first checked the other comments...
@bostonbul5 ай бұрын
@@panorama_mastering Nevertheless, I'll still watch your new videos
@Fire-Toolz5 ай бұрын
i am allergic to people's squeamishness around limiting or compressing or clipping more than like 3db.
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Yeapp!
@Tom-tv4ok4 ай бұрын
can you do a tutorial on your bus processing, with how you are explaining in rule 2,
@panorama_mastering4 ай бұрын
Will do
@cbrooks09055 ай бұрын
You should’ve known you’d get a fuck ton of backlash for the sub mixes rule. I’m with everyone else. Sub mixes are a must. Even if I only have a limiter or a clipper on the sub I find it super necessary.
@williammindreaders10294 ай бұрын
Hello I read some comments you said you'll get another video on sub groups (#3 don't use sub groups). I saw a lot of video but it doesn't seem to be done for now... isn't it ? or if it is what's the name of the video where you extend on that point ? thanks for your amazing content
@daveannis22805 ай бұрын
A whole video on #3 please! The why and the how
@cainomusic5 ай бұрын
This channel is phenomenal! Always valuable information. These small improvements have absolutely taken my mixes/masters that extra few % . I really appreciate everything you do. Keep up the great work! 🙏🏼🎛
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Great to hear! Keep up the great work!
@walshythemusician5 ай бұрын
Thanks for the video. I'd be very interested to learn about what your workflow for dealing with harsh resnoances in a vocal is. I have one client whose voice has tonnes of this stuff - pointy whistle tones between 1kHz and 2kHz, harsh scratchy stuff at 3 - 4.5 kHz, buzzing wasp sounds at 5 - 7 kHz and brittle stuff from 8kHz and up. Dynamic eq cuts and plugins like soothe can't seem to satisfactorily fix these issues without making the vocal sound terribly unnatural. So, I end up having to automate cuts and each of these frequencies every time they appear. I sometimes end up with 20 - 30 eq bands being automated! This doesn't seem right but if I don’t do this, the vocal will sound really unpleasant and if I take a shortcut (like soothe), the vocal sounds weird. The singer is great and maybe i just need to accept that that's how his voice his . Any thoughts?
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Dynamic EQ or ozone stabilizer. A lot of people have great success with sooth too!
@jeancelloroy67135 ай бұрын
I dont want to be silly, but have you tried ribbon mics for that particular case? I use several AEA model and they are so great with 'difficult' voices.
@walshythemusician5 ай бұрын
@@jeancelloroy6713 interesting. I'll check with the artist to see what he's using. Thanks
@ralphverdult5 ай бұрын
I get all of the deliverables except the TV mix. I'v heard you mention this a couple of times. Is it just a clean version? Different vocal level?
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Tv mix is full mix sans-lead vocals
@bygonebotanical5 ай бұрын
I’d love to know if anyone is using the no subgroups rule in Ableton and how they go about it? 🧐 super interesting!
@RicherPodcast5 ай бұрын
All this insight is so helpful, thanks so much fella! Quick one, are you (the industry pros) being sent mixes with the limiter left on? E.g. I mix through a clean pro-L2… if I like the sound before sending it to mastering, should I ever really be sending an unlimited mix?
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
They send me what the producers and labels and signing off in. Usually that means mix bus processing left on, sometimes including limiters!
@Maskaradas5 ай бұрын
Hey! Could you please do a video on best learning materials for those who might not be able to afford classes, but could buy and study books. I've read most of common ones recommended online, but they didn't work for me!!! 🎉🎉a
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Great suggestion! I may do so!
@djvoid15 ай бұрын
On Sub Busses, is there not an argument to be made that phase-linear processes are acceptable or that momentary changes such as a limiter that just catches occasional peaks due to summing or sidechain ducking are not going to be destructive enough to be a problem?
@heyimdalton15 ай бұрын
Excellent video and food for thought! When I first saw the list at the beginning of the video, I thought rule #5 was "No Limiting" as in "No Limiters" and was looking forward to seeing your reasoning haha. "No Limits" is much better though :)
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
No limits to what you doo!!
@tomburden5 ай бұрын
The problem with no bussing is your can't glue tracks together with the same compressor.
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Is that a problem? Is it a must do?
@tomburden5 ай бұрын
@@panorama_mastering I would say it depends what you are trying to achieve. I would say mix buses offer a lot more control. You can choose not to apply any effect to them as well and just use the bus empty.
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Fair take!
@bennetjackson89285 ай бұрын
The sub bus thing only applies cause he's using protools. Also you're so silly for saying unlimited revisions. A workman is worthy of his hire ( commercial law maxim). You give good advice generally but I think you're over philosophizing yourself. Somethings are really not that deep man. So many clients don't know what they want, you have to be able to help them understand their own vision. My clients trust me and if you're really that good then you won't need to do 100 revisions or work long hours or do the most. You'll just perform.
@ChristianBoragine5 ай бұрын
people really don't get summing hahah guys, it's just that: a sum, there is no magic voodoo behind it. doing 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 or doing (1 + 1) + ( 1 + 1) it's always going to be 4, surprise surprise.
@9Hansi35 ай бұрын
the way you explain it only applies if there is absolutely no processing on anything. In reality it’s more like: 1 (EQ‘, comp‘) + 1 (EQ‘‘, reverb) + 1 (EQ‘‘‘, clipper) + 1 (Filter, widener) instead of (1+1) (EQ‘, comp, reverb) + (1+1) (EQ‘‘, clipper, filter, widener) Not saying I agree with the video. But it is more complex.
@ChristianBoragine5 ай бұрын
@@9Hansi3the point is, summing per se does not introduce phase shift or random distortion. if you eq a bus it's like eqing a stem. a bus it's only a summing process, if you get problems from eq you will get them with single tracks anyway.
@ChristianBoragine5 ай бұрын
@@9Hansi3just to be clear, if you have two tracks with an eq with a 500hz cut of 3db on each it is exactly equivalent to having the two tracks in a bus with the same eq in the bus itself. in fact if you have the two tracks and the bus in the same session and you invert the phase of the bus you get perfect silence. That's why I talked about summing in my original post. You can do the exact same test with delay ie.
@9Hansi35 ай бұрын
@@ChristianBoragine yeah summing doesn’t change anything on its own. I guess the argument is that you treat 10 tracks differently than one bus with their sum. By the way I‘m not arguing for avoiding busses, I use them in every project. I just think it’s an interesting take from an actual mix/master engineer:)
@ChristianBoragine5 ай бұрын
@@9Hansi3i agree, but I honestly don't understand his point of view. grouping in a bus doesn't mean not being able to act on the single track, sometimes it makes sense to do one thing and sometimes the other, putting it down as he puts it without a valid explanation seems more like a dogma to me and makes me question his undestanding of digital audio.
@jorgedejesustejedavaldez52835 ай бұрын
I get so many heat with the loudness theme lol. I always get to the conclution that good music and good mix can be loud pettry easy lol. is not about they need it or not, but can be loud easily.
@kgmusic705 ай бұрын
Enjoyed this! Just need you to do a step by step idiots guide and I'll be ok!
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Haha lovely
@kgmusic705 ай бұрын
Nic could you point me in the right direction to your video were you explain your RX Audio Editor setup please, I can't seem to locate it?
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
kzfaq.info/get/bejne/qMiHqapmy9u6YIU.htmlsi=TTFZn2t7CjZrHnu1 here you are!
@kgmusic705 ай бұрын
Thanks Nic, you're better than you are!
@DrBuffaloBalls5 ай бұрын
Everything else you said is very on point, but your argument against sub busses was in contrast poorly founded. Everything sums together eventually, and the summing being in stages through buses isn't what is going to make or break it, and if you know what you're doing with the processing you add on these buses, you're probably helping your mix come together more than hurting it. Just the action of busing things doesn't affect anything without processing applied. You stated that you change EQ settings on a sound and hear the effect elsewhere. What you're describing is just the biggest central challenge of mixing, because everything affects everything, with or without buses. We have to somehow get all our sounds and their most important characteristics to be clearly present through a couple of vibrating cones, in a way that is not only clear, but musical. That's easier said than done, especially since we have to also account for the tricks our ears play on us, psycho-acoustic phenomena, etc. I personally find sub buses to be invaluable. A slight touch of compression on a drum bus can be the difference between a kit sounding like a decent but disconnected group of sounds, and sounding like one cohesive unit working together to give a pulse to your track. It is true that you shouldn't always bus process just because, but if you have a legitimate justification for the purpose of doing it, go ahead and do it. If you're just looking to link volume fader movements without need for bus processing, that's where VCAs come in to play.
@panorama_mastering5 ай бұрын
Thanks man. What you’ve shared is a very fair judgement. I think I failed myself to clearly contextualise and showcase my justification. Which in turn isn’t good advice because it leaves too many holes in the discussion and confuses people
@happyshadow5 ай бұрын
😂 well you got my interaction. "Rule no2 NEVER use EQ's"
@huberttorzewski5 ай бұрын
Actually sub busses are the best thing ever and I use it daily. Want to compress and clip acoustic drums before the go into the mix bus compressor? Boom, do it on your drum bus instead of inserting a clipper on the master bus only or on every drum track individually (which doesn't even make sense). When I want to ride all the drums volume across the song I do it on my drums bus fader, the same with vocal harmonies grup etc. Never had any issues.
@kimseniorb5 ай бұрын
gotta go tell tchad blake, michael brauer, jaycen joshua, andy scheps not to use busses. they are noobs ya know
@patrickalphenaar5 ай бұрын
What! No Sub busses! Nah I totally disagree to be honest. I dont use eq on sub busses so phasing is not an issue and if it is we will hear that. I also need busses to be send to my Neve Orbit to be summed with analog flavor……….. but having phasing issues can happen everywhere in the mix and you need to learn how to hear that to prevent it from happening…… Cheers