Indeed, first CDs vere extremely poorly made. Also the DACs weren't at the level of todays DACs. I have really hefty set of 4000€ headphones and 4000€ DAC plus 1500€ headphone AMP to really make the room disappear. I took the set to friend who has 15.000€ turntable. I made him to sit down and listen to the DAC. Then we plugged in the turntable to the AMP. He just could not believe what he did hear. The sound from DAC was just so much more detailed and the instrument separation was "of the hook". And how clean the sound was to compared to the turntable. He did next day order the same DAC that i had.

Thanks !

My father is 91 and his music source is a $100 portable DAB clock radio. LOL He loves it. @@OCDHIFiGuy

Thanks Tom !!

that was great lol

Rock on!

Not to mention the amount of terrible vinyl pressings these days.

So much easier.... THX

You are the exception to the rule Louis !

Thats what he said, if you like the collection angle then its for you

I totally get the vintage allure and collectability aspect and I love it for that... again, like my title states, there is NO Argument... There is NO Better way.... They are BOTH great.... One has a lot less liability time and cost involved.

Doesn't the digital gear he is talking about that is so much better than vinyl cost like $25k? At those cost levels, everything better make you smile and rejoice, but it won't. Obviously, you still cant make a bad digital master great. So having digital and analog is still certain.

Oh yeah, some recording in a bedroom actually sounds more authentic to the live performance than when there are a bunch of people who don't play involved in every aspect of the recording and mixing. It may technincally sound better, but then it sounds similar to other produced muis and no longer sounds like what the band actually sounds like. Over production is still serious crime

Well there it is again... from someone with professional experience... These are interesting conversations ...

@@OCDHIFiGuy I would suggest that if people want to get into the live vs recorded format debate, acoustic music would be the reference point. Anything with amplification is a whole different ballgame. Acoustic recording in digital and tape at the same time would be a fair comparison.

Glad it was helpful!

Which APL DAC ? Plus my point is its not necessary to do both. For instance my Tape sounds best, but Id never take it serious for listening. Too much time wasted..

I'm all about no listening fatigue.

@Mike Genmati Your post fits into my position with Jay... My DAC is like Vinyl, in that you can listen to it for days with no fatigue...

@@OCDHIFiGuy yeah mike but your dac costs 24k.. not many people can afford a dac of that capability. And vinyl is about the tangible experience of listening and enjoying just like folks still buy books and magazines despite them all now being online.

100% agreed I have a really good dac stream a lot in tidal but whenever I put on vinyl it just takes me into a different emotional experience

I agree, the fatigue factor nails it. I still feel something gets lost in the AD/DA process. There's something much more relaxing about something that's all analog, even if the digital is closer in sound to the original analog master. Bernie Grundman explains it pretty well. It's about the digital having trouble with the very hi freq. super lo level harmonics and transients, they get lost and it makes it feel very different.

Your human ears are not perfect either. And limitations on vinyl is what makes the engineers actually do their fuckin job. Maybe that's why people like it so much. Maybe because the mastering engineer can't simply crank up the volume as loud as they want. Maybe we don't need bass that a guy with 12 subwolfers in a truck wants. Maybe we don't need to hear a soft passage being so exposed to our ears.

Great name ! AND you ride bikes too ? Doppelganger ???

​@@Brian-qg8dg Can see a nerve was pricked there. Mastering Engineers literally take away octaves from instruments because the needle/pre-amp of turn tables can not read them properly. They do it so you can hear what the playback mechanism is capable of producing. You can love vinyl all you want. I love music and if a conductor wants an oboe to play I want to hear what it is playing not 7/8 of what it plays, or piano/violin/bass/clarinet etc... There are many instruments which get octaves taken away when mastering for vinyl. Obviously everyone's ears are different; everyone wants different things from their systems. To each their own; I shared the reason why I (repeat I) didn't bother with vinyl. Where did I tell others do as I?

@@michaelpowell4823 however, modern (digital) mastering that’s really, really bad and probably the biggest problem with modern mastering and has hurt digital is over-processing, over-multitracking, dynamic compression, over-plugin, loudness wars, etc, etc, etc you name it. At least in the analog days there were limitation to the mastering and now it’s kids who grew up on MP3 player mixing and mastering on protools and clipping the 💩 out of their music to push the limiters and compression to the top of the 0 db. That’s one advantage of vinyl now is that it’s mastered “better” since the needle would skip all over the place if they over-processes and over-produced the mix and masters. This is why people today believe it “sounds” better than digital which it doesn’t but do to the crappy mastering it doesn’t sound as good. That’s my two cents anyway!

Awesome, thank you!

LOL, You win comment of the day !! ROFL...

True, any path to the hobby is great..

Sums it all up... THX FF !

To each his own... I dont agree. Too much liability, lost time and cost involved IMHO. Fun if you have time to shop, collect, try different pressings, clean records, flatten them, set up a TT, Flip Records, clean records, dont bounce the needle, did I say clean records ?

My God, it ain't that hard.....I'm astonished how good some vinyl sounds, and I'm talking playing it on a 2k turntable. The record dr is the only record cleaner u need, 300 bucks. A relatively cheap cartridge on a good turntable is the way to go. The ortofon bronze, Hana el, and denon dl103, all terrific. My freaking thrift store records, once cleaned, sound awesome . It's really not all that difficult to achieve great sound with vinyl, not as tough as you make it sound. And you actually OWN the music.

Thorens Is putting out some killer turntables today. The td 1500 sounds fantastic.

Tom port will give you a good argument on virtues of vinyl.

Digital is the lazy man format of listening to music.

Ill ask...

Derek, you have good instinct and you trust your intuition. You hit a core principal truth with your awareness. No matter gow "Good" a system sounds, if it does not connect you with the music, it has zero value to a true Music person. People are not taught to "feel" for the realism or to connect to the music on an intimate emotional level, but rather be enamored by bright lights and shiny buttons and otherwise outward displays of material acquisition. It's the De evolution of society right before our very eyes. It shuttles part of our beloved HiFi to the Whore house...as there are manufacturers that understand this digression... problem is it sells .... so it proliferates. I prefer to stand against mainstream narrative and speak and sell to the people who want thier spirits fed.. Holler and say hello anytime. I can answer any questions you may have.... Best !

@@OCDHIFiGuy Thank you, nice to hear validated in my instincts. Interesting connection you're making between the hifi world and society, I suppose that's inevitible with any industry if the people within it are part of society. Crazy, but we must stand for good! Thanks for offering to answer questions! My living room in my condo is 11 ft or so one way with walls. The other way is about 12 feet with windows on one side, and a kitchen island on the other side. I currently have Wharfdale Denton 80th bookshelves, and a Yamaha CA-1010 integrated. It needs a bit of channel work, but the aux works much better than the phono. This was a 'get me by' set up after I downgraded from primaluna dialogue tube amp and usher be-718, Rega dac. It was really nice, but it was too bloaty and made the room chaotic and I needed some cash at the time. Now I'm trying to plan my next rig. I like the idea of a SET amp considering my room and from what people and yourself say about it, sounds like it's more for people like 'us' who care more about the soul of the music. I could be romanticizing it lol, I haven't heard. Based on what you know of me and my room, what would you suggest for a $4000-5000 budget? Ok, the other thing that I've learned about my love of hifi is how I like the looks. I like it to look great in my living space. My previous setup did that for me too, which really adds to the joy of the whole experience. So looks really matter to me. It's similar to the connection to the music, I have a connection to design.

Thats a very low price... Look for used Esoteric or TEAC

@@OCDHIFiGuy Thanks, Mikey. Any particular models? The ones I see around used are from 2009-2012 -- are those still better than, say, a brand new, Marantz 30N or McIntosh 350?

The proof is in peoples actions, not the blabber, right ?? THX for the feedback..

@@OCDHIFiGuy Many people’s actions is to prefer vinyl. If someone like Paul does a DSD comparison to vinyl and prefers vinyl can we call their opinion bullshit?

There you go !

OY ! Tudo Beng ? Virgilio, Pretty much any streamer that is $4K or less will get the job done. The key is to get one with does NOT put noise on to the data line. So look for one with a USB output card, rather than USB off the motherboard (Noisy) Software, Im not so sure about. ROON is most popular, but I dont like the company. I hear Daphile is very high quality ... I still use ROON because its ease of use but its not the best sounding one. I still connect with the music however, and thats why I keep using it for now.... Hope this helps !

Thanks for watching!

Thanks Frank, please for the record.....Ive got some close Chinese Clients/Friends and they HATE their government with a fury.. I back the People of China NOT the Govt, so I do not support the Communists that hurt the people and pollute the globe.. This is my contention... not anything more.. I am about UNITY between cultures, races, creeds, religions, etc... I dont support countries with Human Rights horrors... Thanks for the support !!

a@@OCDHIFiGuy We are perfectly aligned. Thanks for responding.

@@OCDHIFiGuy If your talking about nations with human rights horrors, go no further than the USA. I support the people of USA but not the Govt, either Dems or Republicans. They are both bought and paid for by the same organisations and have led their nation (and mine, ie. Australia) to a series of potentially catastrophic situations we really could have avoided. The mainstream media is also bought and paid for to the point where judging other (eg. Eurasian) nations is inevitable but generally misguided.

@@frankpic You bet Brother ! Cheers !

Glad it was helpful!

Very True... ;-)

Great point. Comparisons with photography are very appropriate!

Vinyl is a waste of time.... CD's beat Vinyl and Cassettes back in the 80's

They are cool to me, just like vintage cars or motorcycles... I love to look, listen (and smell in some cases) these old masterpieces of technology... I skipped Vinyl after asking several people in the industry for their recommendation. It was unanimous .... If you have not started, probably better just not to...

@@davewin1792 Well if CD quality doesn't do it for you, 24/192 will cover it.

Not that I know of. The worlds top Recording engineers no longer record in Analog. At all....

Dude ! What a chore its become !

@@OCDHIFiGuy 😆 But you're just the guy for the job!

Its nuts what people think Im saying .... I think many of them simply read the title and comment without watching... its pretty obvious...

Great idea... 👍 I would if I had those circumstances...

There it is from Another guy with professional Audiophile experience... Thank you !

LOL... Dont make me bring "The Dude" back.... :-)

I'm a Scrapper bro.... lol. You haven't figured that out ?? I built this channel on my rant. I'm mellowing out now. But yes, it's not about sound, it's about WAY more and I applaud vinyl enthusiasts for that.

Can you Whats app me ?

@@OCDHIFiGuy Sorry I can't

@@jazzbass6246 then call me. There are questions to ask you first. But they are $15K USD entry level...

@@OCDHIFiGuy My room: 15 S/M dedicated to music My rig: dac: Denafrips Ares II + Iris Streamer: HifiRose RS 150B Amp: AGD the Audion Speakers: Unison Research Max Mini In France the MPD-6 is at 17000 euros and the MPD-8 at 27000 euros As the Edelweiss is new we cannot find any review so far

It sounds more "real"... more lucid. Better presence. Wider seemingly limitless Soundstage. Shimmer on cymbals that sounds like brass not just a splashy sound. Ability to play very busy, complex musical pieces and delineate every instrument individually with no smear. Hope this helps... I've had Perfect Wave in here....

@OCD HI-Fi Guy Man, I really want to get into the dsd dac world, but it's so damn expensive. All I have is my phone and my blue-ray player that play dsd. But I'd like dedicated stuff one day.

@@380stroker Sell one of them kick ass Chevys brother !!

@@OCDHIFiGuy lol

OK, we can be friends... LOL. You are a level headed strong communicator. I absolutely agree.. With most of it.. For me at my age, time is precious and I love to be outside. I wish to listen to music and not spend time with the media and playback apparatus. Ill "waste" my time on a Motorcycle or on a hike, fishing, Scuba Diving, Golfing, on and on.. Plugins = Yuck.. I dont use DSP to tune my rig either.. I prefer passive analog tuning in the room. I get the Vinyl thing.. Just not for me..

There ya go.... I get that from all the recording guys..

Of course the digital catalogue is not complete and never will be. Then again - starting from the 80s - there is a massive amount of recordings on cd which will never be released on vinyl. Standard cd absolutely wipes the floor with anything vinyl has to offer - when it comes to preserving the purity of the original analog signal.

No, theres not everything Vinyl on Digital. If this is important to you then you buy a TT and collect records. ;-)

@@OCDHIFiGuy thank you!

I know Glen... Schick ... he bought 2 of my Amplifier designs for use in his studio and used my Silver foil cables because he "had to EQ less" for his masters in his words.. Glen moved away and Colin Leonard (his old business partner) of Sing Mastering is now my Local mastering guy.... :-)

What type of music do you listen to?

@@elitetrader5468it’s eclectic: rap to classical and everything in between ergo I went with a DAC.

I mean all Playback Designs DACs including mine, convert incoming PCM to DSD. DSD is played natively (no DoP)

There it is .... U bet my friend !

PS audio do something very similar but with DSD & Vinyl at Octave Records. They record in DSD & create vinyl from that recording. Paul McGowan has stated that for some unknown reason the vinyl always sounds better.

@@damonsbest vinyl wouldn't even be part of the equation in the theoretical experiment I'm talking about :) Octave would be a cool place to do it though!

@@damonsbest LOL, I call BULLSHIT on Paul..

@@OCDHIFiGuy maybe, but who knows. One thing, he doesn’t sell turntables, he sells digital. Yet still responds that vinyl sounds better doing that comparison.

For sure, its what makes conversations so great ... I think we need to stop making it about right or wrong however.. If people didnt have varying opinion, think how boring it would be...

Rock on B !!

Rock on Nick !!

Thats great, probably really nice pieces im sure... lets compare.. so for $3K you get 100 records... thats 10 years of Hi Res streaming service with a million records at your disposal..

Its available online from Audiophile music companies.

I believe you answered my question in the video at around 14:30. The person cutting the album had to do their magic in that process in order to make it sound good on the vinyl record, and that was the equivalent to the mastering process today?

Oswaldo, Thanks for your reply.. Jay just sent me a link to his vid and I watched one where I take it you are a turntable dealer that knows his shit according to Jay. This is great and you get my total respect for what you have done. In common form here on YT, you are assuming many things. Let me clarify for you. By the time I swore off Vinyl, It was after several years of asking people in the industry at shows. Both people I exhibited with (VPI was one) as well as other exhibitors. Remember, I can buy at accommodation pricing and I also have clients that would sell me stuff for a song. Ive had many opportunities to trade for extreme Turntables over the years but I know its a deep hole and I was always leery to go down that path. I share this Audio hobby with several others and I love to be outdoors, so my listening time is precious and I want the listening time for time spent to be high. In other words, little to no time consuming ritual. I also have Vinyl sellers that are clients and friends. In several countries. Not only could I have a sick TT setup, I could get "proprietors stash" of the best rare pressings, etc. This is from guys that make a living selling records. I asked every and each one of them, "If I dont own ONE piece of vinyl and Im about to start this Vinyl thing, can you recommend it to me. The answer was unanimous for several years and many professionals. "If you havent started, I would probably NOT recommend you start. " I heard this for years and had not decided. GEOFF POOR of GLEN POORs Audio in IL, who is a second generation dealer who is a very well respected gentleman in this industry, who sells both KRONOS and Playback Designs and was OWNER of Balanced Audio Technology told me MPD-8 beat the KRONOS. This was the straw that broke the back of my decision to stop considering Vinyl altogether. Your comment about this takes me for an idiot bro.. Im farther ahead than you think... I did not get this far from being a bozo just bumping my gums. Give respect where its due. So if "shoddy" research is 5 years of asking industry pros from recording guys, to tracking engineers, to my nutty Vinyl customers telling me of broken needles and the chore of cleaning, to professional vinyl sellers telling me to get the best pressing, I buy 5 of the same album, keep the best pressing then sell the others , to Turntable manufacturers going in to all the variables between arms and carts, to industry moguls like Mark Levinson laughing at Analog as a current format, finally culminating to a High level well respected decades long dealer of BOTH Brands telling me Playback sounded better than his Kronos..... my decision was final... Screw Vinyl.. Not for me.. YOU keep it.... Next off, my talk here threatens your income stream, so its no wonder you would try to cast shade. If you truly thought this would worsen my cred, you would rejoice as it would drive people your way. Instead you are here trying to denounce my credibility which is far greater than you know yet. I understand this and I dont hold it against you OZ. Just because we stand for different ideas in HiFi does not mean we cant be civil.. I cant see myself ever selling analog and Ill have to send my clients somewhere if they want it .. Perhaps Ill pick up an entry level TT brand, just to cover it for people that want to play back the family records or whatever.. But I personally think the money for the expensive stuff is better spent on digital... Analog to me is like collecting vintage HiFi gear... cool but Id never want it as my daily choice.

@@OCDHIFiGuy Hey dude! All well put and I am not offended at all! Also, I did not mean to offend or discredit you. I was merely suggesting that the most effective or conclusive way you can write off vinyl as a viable format if is YOU yourself had a great turntable in your arsenal and YOU conducted your own shootouts against your digital. That is all. Getting data from all manners of audio acquaintances, industry insiders and even audio dealers and/or manufacturers is all well in good. But nothing, I repeat NOTHING will beat doing your OWN research by owning the actual gear yourself and using your OWN ears. That is all. Cheers mate. Glad we can keep it civil. I really did not mean to offend you even if it sounded that way. I totally respect why you will not embrace it however. It is not for everyone and I even admitted that I agreed with your main point: vinyl playback is NOT a smart investment for getting into the audiophile game in 2022 as a newbie. Peace! Oz LTBS

​@@OCDHIFiGuy UPDATE: Your audio acquaintance Geoff (of Glenn Poor's Audio Video) is not currently a Kronos dealer, nor it appears he ever was 🤔 I am being told he sold a Kronos turntable but that was 10 years ago(!) but that he never officially became an authorized Kronos dealer. So there's that, if you will, in the interest of offering full transparency. So this begs the question... Is this a case of your buddy Geoff arriving to his conclusion based on "a remembrance" of what that one Kronos turntable (from a decade ago) sounded like vs. what current Playback Designs MPD-8 sounds to him today? Hmmm interesting! Oh and I am not asking you to push the issue and get me more facts. Please don't. We're best letting this dog lie. No one else cares except ODC people like you and me 🤣

Yes buddy ! Soy Latino !

Thanks Tommy !

Better yet, lets go see a show !

@@OCDHIFiGuy 🍾

GOD FORBID !!! The Cardinal sin !! Glad you enjoyed the Ride the Sketti dance

That sounds like a blast.. I would attend even though I dont do Vinyl...

@@OCDHIFiGuy Theres others that are held throughout the country, you may have one happening closer than you think.

Thanks Tex

The slow folks bug me, Im going to stop trying to make things clear for people..

Thanks Ron !

You must prefer only old recordings then, because all todays vinyl is just a digital recordings mastered differently to comprehend the various flaws of vinyl. None listening to vinyl recorded in the last decades are really listening to analog.

@@HASHEAVEN nope I buy up to date records I just like the way vinyl sounds digital isn't perfect no format is, as I said I also use digital have both tidal and qobuz and enjoy them but to my ears vinyl sounds better something I thought I had made clear in my comment, every person has a different option on what sounds good to them, we all interpret music our own way if someone likes digital over tape or vinyl that's their choice not what someone else thinks, I use my own ears not someone else's not someone on a forum or on KZfaq I hope this explains my comments above and in the past thank you and please stay safe

THX Pete, I had over 1000 CD's get stolen at one point. Plus my stereo system. I stopped listening for many years after that ....

Actually your digital files can get corrupted if you take good care of your vinyl the information on it can never be lost. One corrupt block on your disk or a power failure etc can render all your stored music useless. Happened to me before terabytes of music corrupted during a sudden power cut.

That was my point. There is no comparison. ;-)

YES

Thats all thet matters !

Thanks Man ! I appreciate your feedback !

If you were a teenager in the 90s, everyone had a discman. Then mp3 and loudness wars came and more or less stained digital for that generation for perhaps 20 years. It shouldn’t be a surprise that people believe vinyl is superior which has plenty of its own issues, but none of them were as egregious as the digital problems during that time.

A client has been recommending Daphile as a player... Im going to check it out ..... Id love to bail on ROON..

@@OCDHIFiGuy Check out Euphony Stylus also

@@OCDHIFiGuy roon sucks, the search function is appalling.

I just use a mac mini with Audirvana and 16GB RAM … USB from ifi zen streamer into a reclocker, then I2S into Venus II. Does anyone out there think a cool $2-4K streamer is going to give me better sound? I just can’t imagine it …

@@bdmcn well the Philosophy is this. Computers have noisy motherboards because they are not made for audio specifically. Neither is MAC OS nor Windows. So a purpose built computer designed for music duty, using an OS designed ground up for music duty ONLY, using a seperate USB output OFF the motherboard on a high end Audio Card powered by an outboard, low noise power supply will yield better results. This is confirmed in all my tests. HOWEVER, if I was using a Denon receiver as DAC/Pre/amplifier, it may not yield great results...

Thats great Daniel, I hope it keeps developing !

No one says it sound like digital because they are full of prejudgment about it, "It sounds like analog" its just a catch phrase people first read in hifi mags. And just because first digital recs werent as nice as people were used to with analog. But this doesnt apply now although catch phrases like these still used...

@Johnson Adekunle, "Analog" IS the reference because there is no actual sound of Digital other than hisssssssssss. Sounds like "analog" is actually a silly thing to say because we can only hear in Analog.. What people are trying to say is it sounds like real life..

There's mote than just money. There's pain in the ass factor... Burning valuable listening time factor. How much of the 10K is allotted for records ? There's lack of unlimited content factor.. on and on... No absolutes in this hobby... except digital is far more efficient and comprehensive

Couldn't get much Higher !

Go to 11stereo forums .. I allow members to sell thier stuff there..

EXACTLY ..... You got to the root TRUTH.... THX David !

And man who fart in church sit in his own Pew... 😆

@@OCDHIFiGuy ...not if he wear Charcoal Filter Briefs.

Yes, you said it. you had a record collection when CD's came out... Makes perfect sense !! ;-) Its a great thing !

Thanks Steven ! Youre pretty great yourself !

Telarc is a great example of killer vinyl....

There ya go !

This makes sense... I buy tickets to their shows. Dont know 23 envelope.. Ill look.