It's really odd how many people seem to act like reliving a war where hundreds of thousands of people were killed is something that we should just casually accept and do nothing to prevent.

This was absolutely riveting. No doubt one of the best podcasts you guys have ever done. The undertone of disagreement only made it better, too, especially since everyone kept it respectful. Thank you!

Guest recommendation: Barbara F. Walter, from UCSD. She studies civil wars academically.

You guys have probably forgotten more history than I will ever know. I respect that. That being said, as far as the history of the period of 1960 to the present day, I lived it. I was born in the late 1950's. I saw with my own eyes and heard woth my own ears, what you have merely read about with apparently a certain degree of detachment. I'm gonna read Marches book, because from what I've seen, like it or not he's pretty spot on.

Secularism vs Christianity is a big part of the divide; cultural norms and aspirations as well the role of government. The difference between other decades and now is the promotion of secular culture over Christianity and the amount of non white people in the country, making unification almost impossible.

Good debate and nice work Saagar. Impressed with your debate skills.

I like Marshall and Saagar talking about how they felt about the interview/conversation during the show. If you don't do it at the beginning, could it be shifted to the end of the podcast maybe? That might flow more easily (as a way to wrap the show), it won't bother the people who just want to watch the interview, and those like me who want to hear just Marshall and Saagar discuss the topic and discuss the interview itself will still get that additional insight. Love the show, love the topics, love Marshall and Saagar

The idea that Massachusetts can't get what it considers reasonable gun laws is on its face ridiculous. It's one of a minority of states with an AWB, magazine capacity restrictions, safe storage laws, and a may issue licensing scheme. Add to that an AG that has no problem enforcing, or at least threatening, measures beyond the scope of the written law as it was understood (and let's be honest, if the 2016 enforcement notice or the de facto ban on online / mail order ammunition sales were put before the MA legislature, they'd sign it into actual law in a heartbeat), and you have a recipe for gun laws, and worse still norms, which go beyond what's reasonable.

Gun ownership is obviously common in the US. However that 400 million gun stat can be misleading. That gets skewed by owners with huge collections or simply people who own more than one gun. I've seen stats that claim the average gun owner has about 5 guns. "Gun ownership in the U.S. 1972-2021. The share of American households owning at least one firearm has remained relatively steady since 1972, hovering between 37 percent and 47 percent. In 2021, about 42 percent of U.S. households had at least one gun in their possession." Dec 1, 2021

National divorce does not have to result in a civil war.

The culture was slave/no slave; the war started to feed Lincoln's greed for Empire. Lincoln supported slavery prior to and during the early part of the War Between the States.

Also please interview JJ McCollough as an antidote to this guy's ridiculous Canadian nationalism, please.

1:01:22 Earl Grey had a tea named after him, so I’d say he’s pretty memorable

I love the intro jingle to your show.

Big time conversation, handled well.

Poor Saagar frowning for about an hour straight.

Oh I’m halfway in and this one is 🔥🔥🔥

Left unsaid was the issue of race and the legacy of slavery and antisemitism. The Canadian perspective is always looking in from the outside. Marche has done his academic work and more importantly brought his journalism to the fore. The issue of R vs W in the last few weeks and the erosion of respect for institutions was born out by his astute observation and research. The subtitle of the book should have been Dispatches From American Failure. The hate filled halls of Congress are igniting a powder keg that will make the 1st Civil War mild in comparison to what awaits everyone on both sides of the political divide. Having spent my working life in the U.S. I can appreciate the work and passion of the author. He has led two lives and witnessed the failures first hand of the American dream. Canadians are not disinterested but mostly terrified at how the events of January 6th showed the fragility of the American Republic. Most Canadians watched January 6th in absolute horror. That one police officer saved the most advanced industrialized nation from spiraling into complete chaos is mind numbing.

Got a lot to say about this one: First, Saagar and Marshall put on display why they are my 2nd favorite duo on YT. Saagar was clearly annoyed and PO'd, but he keeps quiet with the exceptions of a few challenging Qs. Marshall meanwhile kills it with super thoughtful debates. It was really fantastic seeing a guest that they both seem to have fundamental disagreeements with. The guest.... well, i actually tend to side with his premise, but jesus he did an awful job arguing it. Constantly derailing discussion with hedging and qualifiers - which is great and essential for academic resesrch but terrible in a more grounded discussion. Even worse, despite this being a full hour, this episode was the first time it felt like someone came on only to sell a book. I know all the others did as well, but this guest was always deflecting Qs in that way - "i dive into this a lot in the book *changes topic*". Enjoyed the topic, and the discussion. Part of me wants more discourse on this bc i find it fascinating, but idk if it would add anything. Happy new year fellas!

Myths aren't lies, they act as integrative meta-stories. They enable a country to situate itself in the global order, link various groups together and define a common identity. What used to hold america together was a common protestant faith, the fleeing of tyranny in europe and the founding of a novel socio-political order, legal and political egalitarianism, the belief in progress, etc. Once the story is gone, who are we collectively as a nation ? Hence tribalism and fragmented identities.

Jesus Christ. People still don’t know the autopsy concluded there was no blunt force trauma to the Capitol cops body?

He lied about not having a dog in this fight, he's clearly coming from one side and his facts and figures are off.

Where's this guy getting his data and information from? Buzzfeed and MSNBC?

Would love to see Peter Turchin on the show

I feel like America needs new modern institutions and or organizations that represent what this nation needs now

The capitol was Literally bombed by the weathermen in the 60s.. But "its not even close" lmao.

I got to give this guy props on that bar “Countries can only live by their dreams”

You needed to push him a bit more on the data side. "1 million Oathkeepers". Lol I'd never even heard of Oathkeepers.

Uneven interview but really got me thinking about what sort of myth really _could_ work for everyone going forward. As much as I personally don’t like the “vibe” of it I do see the oft-mentioned “barstool republicanism” as a possible compromise. Is the myth of BR as simple as “leave me tf alone and I’ll do the same for you”? Is that actually a good enough summation of America’s past to go forward with? I think it could be if properly espoused as such without any of the culture war baggage from either side.

One side grew up in woodlands trained to live off the land with a skill set of hunting, fishing, growing food and sport shooting while the other side can't figure out which men or women's bathroom to choose. Hmm, wonder who has the edge?

What about residential schools in Canada?

Stephen's case is a bit of a cartoon version of what's happening on the ground. Sagaar is correct in his point that this animosity is much heavily felt on the elite/ progressive left.

"All countries end" Japan: Am I a joke to you?

I think the whole point is that the US has managed to survive so far without a strong, universal, national story or myth.. at least in comparison to what say France has.

have often wondered how lincoln justified the war when the south said hey we don't want to be in this 'union' and abe says no you're going to stay and pointed a gun at their head to 'enforce' it .. how do you sell that policy forcing states to remain when they've had enough .. ????

Sagar has some great points in this

“Oathkeepers in the millions” lol gimme a break

Just listened to this via podcast. Marche is the king of red herring and straw man arguments… I’m sure he is popular with the LARPers of America, but it all seems so dishonest. Thanks to Saagar for pushing back. Great work.

The biggest factor here that distinguishes this time period from previous ones that was not discussed is the internet and ease of travel. Those 2 things have changed the world forever. Like minds can connect and grow in their viewpoints via the internet and can travel to see each other even, but still live dispersed throughout the nation. Those people want to live surrounded by like minded people, but don’t feel like they are - hence increased antagonism. The strains of continual recessions (as mentioned) only exasperated this. With remote work taking over for some and those people being able to move to like-minded centers (think the flux leaving Cali for northern Idaho), I think there is a real possibility that america only becomes more divided.

Interesting points in this conversation, but I refute a lot of what's being said

Subsidiarity is what we need here people, keep government as local as possible, what can be handled locally needs to be, our Federal government has gotten far too centralized over the past 100-150 years, and we are paying the price for this. Put the power back into people closer to the problems. We're doing too much top down and it's a large part of our polarization.

31:00 There's nothing "reasonable" about MA's gun law asks when compared to almost anywhere else in the country. Using the guest's own analogy, MA is basically that husband or wife that tells everyone that they "let you have your hobbies, but keeps it sane" while putting nonsensical restrictions on it because they hate your hobbies.

Lot of these author who are writing about american dissolution are canadians. He is a dilluted Canadian

Somehow Saagar seems to miss the obvious "what's different this time" point made in the discussion - younger generations are not exceeding the opportunities of their parents, and haven't for about 50 years now. There are millions of pissed off people out there that feel they are 'owed' something better, and want to find someone to blame for it.

Texas has no state tax…seems alluring.?.?.🤔….then you realize they are 93 percent privately owned. 93 percent folks. Just not worth it. Also wood privacy fences everywhere and no trees. I’ll stay here in Michigan with 5 National parks, 101 state parks, thousands of city parks, trees and fresh water everywhere ❤️🌎✌🏼

Ok, I was listing to the podcast on Spotify and will continue, but had to come here to comment because Marche’s assertion at the 16:00 mark that there is more violence and violent rhetoric now then on the 50’s and 60’s is wildly incorrect.

I love this podcast! I will say that Saagar's dislike and bias of liberals or liberal elites might be blinding him a bit on this subject. Yet I really appreciate his push on the subject matter.

Interesting perception. What is most interesting is that the US is Republic, so quite honestly, it's already much like each state is its own little country (decentralized) as a national context. ....but I see how you can identify some states in certain lights. A Political Identity, Economic, Values TYPE. Primarily, your grouping of the Cascadia, Texas, and the Northeast... Although, I'm not sure parts of Michigan and Wisconsin would meet your type definitions. Perhaps a governance model that administers these TYPE categories/entities as separate administrative entities. I would break it down more, with Texas taking on a larger portion of the south....Arkansas, for example. The Midwest. Southeast. (Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, South Dakota, Utah)...sounds like a good like type. (Colorado, Arizona, Nevada, New Mexico).

This interview just made me realize we’re not nearly as divided as we could be. It’s sounds like this guy has rotted his brain by living online.

I enjoed the discussion. One thing I found intersting, that it was referenced about removing statues & the story/myth. Unfortunately America refuses to the ugly truth of its history. I feel accepting the truth & together work to address real issues vs playing the political blame game. I agree we need to be real & elect people who authentic in making America better.

Scary Prescience. Very good interview btw.

If you look at the geography, it is not actually that bad. If you take Texas, there is a blue swathe going from El Paso to San Antonia to Houston, and even Austin isn't that far out of the way. You could pretty easily make all that its own political entity. Blue Dallas would have to stay in a Red Texas, but that is a much smaller problem than having all those other parts of Blue Texas too. If you look at the rest of the U.S., it's very similar. There are some blue islands in the center, but mostly the blue areas are pretty severable.

Excellent guest and conversation. Excellent questions from Marshall. Sagaar seemed peeved for much of it - interviewer shouldn’t take things personally unless the interviewee personally attacks them and I didn’t see that happen

I don't think a civil war specifically is the issue. I think a general collapse really is likely. It might look at times like a civil war, but general decline is going to increase.

Seemed liked a lot of arguments were based on "you know?" kind of arguments

Great pod cast lots to pine over. Understanding where America 🇺🇸 is at in this moment. Just to share my politics I’m an independent who is socially moderate and economically progressive . What I’ve observed in my 55 years is the consolidation of Opportunity for the top 10% and loss for the 80% more Americans need to have the ability to participate in the promise of the Dream without being subjugation to the elite thru debt traps. Education home ownership small loans etc. two classes in America wage slave or elite class for whom the wage slave is Subjugated too.

excited to listen. imo the country is less so divided upon partisan lines as much is it is divided via a culture war amongst elites and everyone else. the majority of us want economic reforms, not the implementation of afropessimism and forever masks in schools/life. idk what the answer to this issue is other than people getting together and advocating for their rights in solidarity regardless of race or partisanship.

I'm only 18 minutes in, but so much of this is just ridiculous.

We need a Divorce not a war.

lets try to stay in reality: btwn dissolution n alignment

Not sure I fully agree with Stephens viewpoint on Quebec separatism. It was then, based on cultural dentity; specifically language. Maybe even religion. The catholic church held a tremendous amount of power and authority over institutions; health, education, etc. (And in my opinion, kept Quebecers idealistically isolated)....and ultimately cost them greatly economically when businesses moved out of the previously infamous Port geography. As a kid, every major product listed: Paris, Montreal, New York. By late 90s, you could rent business or residential real estate for near nickles and dimes. Sad, really. Today, the polarization in Quebec is still based on cultural identity, language...separatist party, BUT the right conservatives are fueling a whole other political economic identity discord. I think even the separatist are significantly to the left of the People's Party, which I can only compare to the Republican far right freedom caucus.

What about the economic angle? Seems to me that a lot of the ridiculousness socially can be resolved with common sense. The economy on the other hand is a whole different cup of tea.

Americans used to have a national identity; this started to dissolve with promotion of secularism, promotion of diversity over freedom, race over unity and the idea that centralized government is a goal by at least one party on items that give them control.

Riveting nuanced discussion.. you guys are great. I worry about us as a united nation.. the Right has parts of it jumped off the spectrum of critical rationality and empathy- the elites too have become aware.. Educate educate n inform our citizens- halt the hyper privatisation of key Public Sectors- ie Education, Health, Child Care, Aged Care, Transportation Great show..!

Scottish Nationalism has been around since Reformation....and well, many of the Scottish Anglicans (Catholics) came to the new country to avoid religious and political prosecution, and embrace enlightenment Quebec, Appalachia to the Mississippi (New France) a century prior to the American Revolution. I think the protestant Reformers might have come later, and settled in the colonies, but not sure. I know New France was very much France Catholic/or Anglican Scottish settlements..... There is a difference between protestant non conformists reformers and protestant Anglicans. (Anglican being closer to Catholicism sacraments). The Book of Common Prayer.

This is awesome. I haven't faced this many facts since I dumped my ex

19:20 Didn't Ashli Babbitt die on Jan 6?

How does his example of ever changing tribes creating death and destruction not gang warfare in cities like Chicago ? How does he discount that?

This guy lost all credibility after he said there was an officer killed.

I think Stephen’s perspective on how the American identity isn’t as strong as in other places is misguided because he himself is a foreigner. The American sentiment is vital to the identity of almost everyone in this country. Being an American is important to many people, it runs deep to who they are as a person. Recent immigrants might feel slightly differently, and we have a lot of those, but the truth is that most people on both sides love this country and wouldn’t accept or couldn’t even imagine being something other than from the United States of America. A foreign perspective on American politics provides many benefits, but also lacks important understanding in some aspects

A woman WAS shot and killed by a officer at the Capitol, it was livestreamed and that comment that no one died is bs.

I started out being closer to Sagar's position, but towards the end I could see some of the points made by Stephen, the biggest of which is the lack of national story and the inability to come up with one that's acceptable to all citizens. So I'm still skeptical of possibility of large scale civil war, but I think there's no doubt that various segments of American population will continue drifting apart and will probably start forming identities among their own communities. America in the end might end up as a collection of enclaves, either governed by a very loose central government, or in a more darker scenario, in the state of hostility and low-grade conflict.

This interview make me to buy more Bitcoin :(

Be Afraid, be Afraid, be very Afraid!! Sell that book. Divide and conquer, that’s the gimmick being played by “leaders” who have nothing to offer us. “January 6th”? Ridiculous power grab.continúes to unravel. Thank you Saagar!

Ok he is on Tim Pool and saying he's words not mine that Tim knows more then he dose how? What kind of resources and where did he get he's Information from? Just asking?

Sounds like more fearmongering to sell his book.

Like most - was always taught the Civil War was fought over slavery MANY years later it was pointed out the real reason was a fight for states rights - PRIMARY of those was the right to choose slavery or not. At the time - the south countered - isn't the industrial base used a form of Wage Slavery? I understand the human rights view of this but isn't there merit in seeing the counter the south was using? Isn't it one of the primary reasons we see today the focus on corporate greed / influence?

We need to get out and vote in person! This will provide more confidence in our electoral system. Mass mail in ballots have to end. results from elections in this day and age need to be fairly immediate! No more than 10% absentee ballots. Does not matter if last election was rigged or not, it was a complete mess and we cannot have a repeat of that! Only way democracy can sustain itself is by consent of the people. Please everyone go to your precinct and vote next election!

CNN also has guests who (irresponsibly) say it's inevitable.

We all think our opinions are the RIGHT opinions and other's are wrong. The media both left and right are horrible and greatly contribute to the divide. I live and let live, I respect other's point of view and right to live as they choose as long as they respect my rights as well. As an independent voter, most Americans are moderates and do not like either party. However, after watching the down fall of the left, my values are more supported on the right as of now. White liberals constantly tell me I have trouble voting. The reality is that I have never had any problems voting and I've had several forms of ID since I was 14 years old. As a Black business owner and investor, I'm not interested in "food stamps", I want access to capital like everyone else to expand my business and employ more people in my community. Black American women are the fastest growing group of entrepreneurs in the country, we don't want welfare, we want to build wealth. My husband and I vote for policy that will help us build wealth and protect our household.

This Canadian should learn the hard truth that American politics is better left to Americans! Then maybe his cherry-picked arguments would be something to consider. . .

had to stop watching, to say we are going into a shooting civil war like Iraq is ludicrous..........thanks guys, hope others enjoyed it

A stretch to say the least. I feel like this guy only lives in history books and on twitter. His points seem completely out of touch with reality. I would challenge him to actually sit down with the people he’s claiming are so irreconcilably polar opposite that they’re willing to kill their neighbors for it. Step away from twitter for one minute and you might find most people in America have more similarities than they do differences. There are more people in the center than there are on the far ends of the political/social spectrum.

" tried to stay close to the facts I believe in"... Uhhh

This author doesn’t seem to have his facts straight on many points and it calls his entire conclusion into question. He doesn’t sound credible.

Pretty clear Marche came on to sell a book and for publicity. I was pretty disappointed in his analysis. Saagar and Marshall keep helping him by pushing him to think about how he defines the present vs other times in history. But live he keeps making up statistics throughout. He really doesn’t deserve the platform of this channel.

I appreciate Saagar exposing his bias at the beginning of the conversation, and handling himself cordially, but I can still smell the simmering through the whole convo - which kinda undermines the ability to feel open about the discussion.

I think it's probably more likely that Canada will no longer exist as a unified country than for the US having a 2nd Civil War.

Stephen Marche is unconvincing.

We are a Republic ; we have checks and balances; other nations see things through a democracy lense. We hash things out over time. How oblivious can he be ? He knows not America. Vive la Quebec! What a white tower pencil pusher! eh....

Very interesting. I think the reason you both were slightly defensive was that it was honest thoughts from an outsider's perspective. Like someone saying you and your wife don't have a good relationship, here's why. Like, woah, who the fuck are you to say that? I felt a little like that too, but then I actually thought about it. The 2020 riots were honestly, quite scary, and across America. The helicopters hovering near the white house protestors, it got really out of hand and made me feel like we were "those other countries" and I hate to see continue. I recall a politically motivated shooting in the streets of portland. Shit was going completely insane. They were the worst and most wide spread riots since like 1960. The main differences today is, lots of communication with technology so this division can flourish faster/people silo easier and also mobilize easier, no common outside enemy (no real cold war Russia to unite against) maybe people wake up against China soon, and economic stratification. No degree, your not making much unless you go into a hand full of industries. Nursing, Law enforcement, etc. There's no good paying job for non educated workers. All this does really spell a bad time if things keep going the way they are but how the hell does it get fixed? I visited family for Christmas and while I was able to discuss and felt like I was convinced on some topics and convinced my mothers in law on others, my father in law and brother in law completely disagreed and became aggressive from just questioning their source or asking for clarifications (on the Alec Baldwin shooting and gun rights, not even a topic like masks or vaccines lol). They were going on about how he mentioned wanting to kill her and she wasn't supposed to be in front of him, he aimed it off to the side at her. I walked outside to just hang out and visit. I instantly felt the division between us. This is just my family, the whole country is like this. You know, I never though about the statues and their narrative for the country. That's a really good point and removing them without something to rally behind after they are gone/taken down is leading to lower unification for everyone. We should have new figures to raise after them. The attack on Jan 6th felt like a much bigger attack on our national identity though. The militarization of DC afterward. If our capital/seat of government isn't safe from out own citizens, are we even a country? A lot of people give obama shit for losing so many political seats, but I think that was going to happen no matter what. He was the FIRST BLACK President. In a country where people of his skin color used to be subservient to white people. In a country were people with his skin color are believed to be "up to no good" at all times and on drugs. Of course that are would a HUGE motivator for people to go out and vote against him. I do believe the silent majority is a thing. I would of hope that Obama being the first black president would show to us as a country that if your poor, middle, rich, black, white, mexican, asian, etc, that with self determination you would be the president one day. All it did was motivate people to vote to do away with the progress that was made and go back to racial slurs/racial memes (also happened over Christmas that caused issues LOL). The minority having power over the majority will be an issue in the future. Especially with a lot of old republicans dying off with covid. The difference in votes will be greater and greater. Another thing that will sow doubt about out institutions. I recall in poli sci I asked, why do we have peaceful transitions of power? My teacher basically said because they agree to have that transition of power and not everyone has to agree, but we've been lucky no one has tried to seize it. Well, Trump showed that you don't have to step down/transition you can just deny and rally a mob. I - HOPE- that if there ever was a civilian conflict where a President doesn't want to relinquish power, that our military would stand idly by and not listen to orders against either side and not take a side. Let it be worked out like it was via courts. I'd hate to have a Military coup or the military to have power to say who is and who isn't president. That's a very dangerous precedent. Thanks for coming to my Ted talk. Have a good day.

This is like listening to a 9th grader who cribbed his current affairs report the night before from an Alex Jones podcast.

Lost me with his opinion on are constitution.

This guy has brain worms. “A police officer was beaten to death” I believe things are bad. But I think we know it’s bad and we are worried about it which is good. How many other era’s were there actual car bombs and assassinations yet now is the worst it’s ever been. Come on man!

Im a huge Saagar fan. My beef with this author is he circles back to how our Constitution is outdated, but lacks the effort to make a point that we are in this bad place because of deviating from the direction of the document; federalism, small federal govt., States rights, national culture, Bill of Rights, European identity.

I don't like that snarky Saagar. He's acting like a civil war/insurgency is unthinkable in the US. No one wants to believe it can happen here. He did the same thing with Michael Moore, shaking his head, scolding him for even mentioning it. Has he been asleep for the last two years?

As Americans, when did we start listening to Canadian, elite, liberal, academics preaching to us about anything?

This dude sounds like he would love to see America break up.

Host has an agenda other than simply reporting the facts!

I can understand Sagaar’s optimism in the American system to right itself, but I don’t think he’s contending with the primary issue. People have always had disagreements, and sometimes those have become violent, but political rage stems from political impotence, not political disagreement. When people feel like they have zero control over the institutions that run the country, they become angry and violent. This is what Marche is talking about and it’s also laid out by Hannah Arendt and Chris Hedges. Societies that collapse do so because people lose faith in their ability to influence the system. There was plenty of outrage leading up to the civil rights movement, but there was political movement on civil rights which allowed people to move past it. With the current system of campaign financing and government corruption, I don’t see the US getting that political movement to quell the rage. Instead, it looks a lot more like pre-Nazi Germany where the government was completely gridlocked except when it came to policies that helped the owner class.