I know a lot of people won't notice, but the new setup with the lapel mics is really paying off. The audio quality in this episode compared to a month ago is night and day. Go back and listen to the Saint Kathrine episode in one tab then swap to this one, it's a glorious upgrade.

Haven’t read the books, but the summary of a friend of mine who read them all was „this should have been 10 books max“

This was really interesting as someone who hasn't been reading the heresy books.

I tried reading the Horus Heresy so many times and got so bogged down in the "bolter porn." I then tried to read a more curated selection and skip some of the worst reviewed books in the series and failed again. Then I started reading the Caiphas Cain novels, books about the xenos races, and really anything not involving Space Marines and haven't been able to stop. Guess HH just isn't for me

I was seriously hoping that the last line in the End and Death 3 was Loken saying "I was there the day Horus slew the Emperor".

I just recently read the first 3 books in the Horus Heresy and that was my first exposure to Warhammer lore. There were parts that I genuinely enjoyed but did not find them particularly compelling overall. So many pages about rembrancers that I didn't care about, so little actual characterization of Loken, Horus, or any of the other space marines who were key to the story. And the lack of any real motivation for the marines who turn against the emperor was jaw-dropping. Abaddon was particularly jarring because he went from being pissed that Horus wasn't exterminating the Interex in accordance with the Emperor's rules to joining the conspiracy with literally no explanation. I know that there are people who love the books, and more power to them, but they definitely aren't my cup of tea.

The real Horus Heresy were the friends we made along the way.

I read the Gaunt's Ghosts series + a ton of BL collections/short stories back in the early 00s, I read the ADB Night Lord trilogy just this year, I read some of the Mike Brooks Orks stuff... I don't think you could pay me to read all of HH. At the risk of elitism, Black Library authors, as a rule, seem to be extremely top-heavy in the sense there are 3-4 insanely good ones and not enough to go around for the rest. (Also buying all the books would cost like, 3 armies' worth of money, but I digress)

The one story line that I very much like because it explains a lot of the things that happen later - is the story of the imperial cult forming around Euphratia and (sort of) Sigismund. It wasn't the Emperor who broke Chaos, separated warp from reality and made traitors to run away and cry in despair. It was done by the millions of simple religious fanatics united by their reluctant leader. And that explains the fall of the Imperial Truth and rise of the Ecclesiarchy really, really vividly. And it also makes the Emperor vs Horus duel less significant. I am sure it plays a role in it not feeling as climactic as you (and I) wished.

This was a really good summary for those who are thinking about getting further into the lore! Would love to hear your thoughts on other series e.g. the talon of Horus etc

Great take gents, love the style and honesty

24:42 Kieran is spot on. This is why Half Life 3 should never be made.

I've only read the first 3 books back in the mid 2000's what would people say are the minimum required reading prior to the last 3 books?

I think Jaghatai being absent for half the siege is understandable but when hes gone in TEATD i felt there was a pretty strong lack of personality, everyone is dour and hopeless and Fair Enough it's the Actual Apocalypse but damn if i didnt miss him

good review. i get the jist how it can feel stretched out. im mainly reading this series for kharn lol. world eaters had a bit of a role in the siege. but yeh kinda not looking forward to the story as it can be lengthy in descriptions.

Enjoyed how forthright this was, gg guys

I enjoyed the Horus Heresy series. I read every single book, short story, novella, etc. since it started. I don't imagine I would have continued had I not gotten something out of it. There were definitely some stories I liked more than others; I don't know if I would call them 'filler'; but more like they involved characters/factions/storylines that perhaps didn't appeal to me as much as others. Still, I wanted the whole experience and I got it. If you want to earn your black belt in Warhammer Lore, you gotta put your time in with the books boys LOL 🥋 I enjoyed the SoT series although some I wasn't that into - Mortis and Solar War kind of fell flat for me while Saturnine is my favorite overall and by a pretty large margin, i loved that book. Of the characters in the SoT, I don't know if I can pick favorites; I really appreciated Perturabo and what he was able to do and I liked Dorn a lot too. The series was able to offer some surprises - I think the biggest for me was Corswain and the Dark Angels showing up. His entrance at the very closing of Saturnine had me jumping out of my chair, I was so shocked and happy to see him. Having him come up with the plan of taking the Emperor's own flagship and suicide running it through the blockade to get to the mountain beacon was the kind of Big D*ck Energy I'd expect from a favored son of the Lion; but even I wasn't expecting that kind of badassery. Having that whole story end with him and Sigimund fighting back to back on the mountain was epic and I loved every bit of it. As for the big fights, I was actually kind of put off a bit with Horus and Sanguinius. I think it was how Sanguinius was described as a 'golden mote of light' zipping around Horus with his wings a blur and all that - I hate to say it but all I could think of was a little humming bird or worse, Tinkerbell from Peter Pan and it ruined the whole fight for me because I couldn't get Tink out of my head. On the flip side, I still think there was payoff because Dan was able to do something that I always felt was a big shortcoming of the series - Horus, once he stopped holding back, absolutely curb stomped Sanguinius with the most convincing thrashing I thought possible. Yes, Sanguinius had his rightful time to shine, but Horus was so swollen with power now, there was no doubt that even a 100% healthy Sanguinius would have been destroyed - Horus was ascendant and it was evident that the Emperor was the only being with even a remote chance of taking him down (and most likely not). The threat of Horus was FINALLY on display. Throughout all the books, I never felt like we had enough time with Horus, despite his name being on the marquis. We mostly only knew Horus was great because everyone kept saying he was and I think this is a weakness that the authors no doubt wish they could go back and correct. My understanding is that this was originally only supposed to be a 3-book series. It was only after its massive commercial success, the decision was made to turn the story into, well, a setting where a mythology could be laid out in detail. In retrospect, we really only meet 'good' Horus in the first book. We barely get to know him before he falls and Istvaan happens. I bet the authors would love to have had the chance to build him up more - let us get to know him and see through deeds and time with him, just how great he really was before his tragic fall. After book 3 though, sure he shows up now and then for a scene or two, but considering the volume of novels produced, he's more of a threatening/shadowy character in the background. These final books at long last let us see just what he was capable of and it was magnitudes greater than what we were perhaps lead to believe. The Emperor and Horus was never going to be personal; especially after the Emperor cast most of his emotional self aside in preparation for the battle. Yes, it was largely esoteric in how it played out but I think both showed the scope of their incredible powers - I never once thought it was going to be a conventional brawl so I guess I wasn't so disappointed. I liked part 3 of the End and the Death most of all out of the 3-part series. As for lots of it being filler? Maybe - I felt so invested in it after all these years, I suppose I recognized it but didn't mind so much. I liken it to Peter Jackson's Hobbit movies - most people didn't like those films, but since I love his take on the world of Tolkien so much, I still enjoyed spending time there with the characters I liked. It's been a long journey with these HH characters and I sort of didn't want to let some of them go. And yes, especially Loken - that was suitably dirty but you know, I loved his final interaction with Abaddon. In those final moments; they were just speaking as 2 weary brothers with no hint at immediate violence between each other. I don't know why, but these last moments of something akin to peace between them was just nice and I appreciate it. As for the Scouring - is that series confirmed? I wasn't aware of it although I always thought it likely. I doubt it would be another 20 year journey; it didn't take THAT long to chase everyone down. It would be cool to see the aftermath: Guilliman mopping up , Lion and Russ wiping the floor with everyone they are able to get their hands on, etc. I suppose we could also go deeper into some of the other big things that happened in that timeframe (i.e. Lion returning to Caliban and his showdown with Luther). I don't know - I think we all need a bit of a break from it but for me, I'm a satisfied customer, I'm really pleased overall with the HH series. I have to say though, I'm ready to move forward - I'm actually quite enjoying the narrative coming out of 40k right now and I'm looking forward to new stories. I am hoping everyone can find enjoyment from what's ahead as we move on from what's behind. Thanks for the video ❤

Definitely understand why Mortis isn’t popular, but have to say that the scene where the soldiers on the wall start jumping off due to hallucinations, or where that one guard crushes themselves through a firing slit, are some perfectly unsettling moments that give very 40k energy

I love Dan Abnett, he's my favorite author.... he's terrible at endings. I'm not surprised the ending wasn't great, but the character building, world building and filler is great... it's his style.

As someone who has never read any of the books, listening to you guys saying the closure and payoff was underwhelming for a 20 year series makes me sort of glad I never started them. I really considered getting through them on Audible as well.

15:30 literally the last of us and bioshock infinite. not an insult, just you're right, "protect thing while going on a grand journey" is a hella concept

I’m a big Legio Mortis fan and was hugely disappointed with Mortis. No Mortis characters, no Mortis-perspective storyline, it should have been titled “Ignatum.”

I can't be bothered to read all of the HH, its just too long, too many things that I don't care about. I also didn't read all of the Siege of Terra books for the same reason. Basically I read the Dark Angels, White Scars, Space Derps (also known as Space Wolves) some of the Alpha Legion and most of the Thousand Sons books as well as the first 4 books...and the End and the Death (overall with primarch books and all I think I ended up around 30 books which sounds too much...). To me too many storylines were pointless - the whole perpetuals for me didn't pay off at all. It was just trying to give some depth to Malcador's long life and making Oll Persson more than just 'random redshirt at the final scene'. I hated every part of that story whenever it came up in all the HH. End and the Death was a slog. A lot of it was filler that didn't really do much. Maybe it feels necessary to follow all the established characters til the end and make the big encounters feel epic. But at the same time most of it was just boring endless example battles, Dorn endlessly playing in the sand or whatever else happened that didn't move the story or like the perpetuals moved the story only because it was constructed in a way to make them meaningful, but if we are honest could have been done with other existing characters that would have been there anyhow. I admit I also didn't care much about the final part because none of the legions and characters that interested me where part of it (except that few chapters of Dark Angels). So I wasn't emotionally invested at all. I agree absolutely that the book should have ended with the aftermath of the Emperor being place on the throne and the return of the other primarchs. Like you guys said - Closure. For the Scouring - I really, really hope we get a dozen books at most. I just want to see the Fall of Caliban and that's it. I want some damn closure for the damn Fallen storyline and I don't think we will ever see it until Lion and Luther face off in 30k. Also damn Cypher mystery... 30 years is long enough.

*orders 20 years worth of books

I have long held that Dan Abnett is the best author in the Black Library. Very disappointing to hear the final trilogy is so bloated, his writing rarely feels that way to me. I'll get to them eventually, but... 😢 I hope he can wrap up the Bequin trilogy sometime soon, now that his HH work is done. I thought the 1st 5 HH books were solid. Erebus is a total tool. It would have been nice to see more of the established Imperium before rushing straight into the fall. A couple of books of big E and Horus working together to claim the galaxy would have not only given more background, but would have invested us more in the characters. It would have made the betrayal far more visceral.

"actually the emperor has to kill sanguinius" was is and will always be a stupid idea

Unnecessary and redundant books, no literature value, just blatant merchandise. A shame, a true shame, considering the first 5-6 books of the saga were inspiring and, to some degree, innovative for the genre.

I thought the siege of terra was dogwater especially the end and the death I don't know why writers felt it necessary to add so much nonsense lore to the setting. Enuncia, perpetuals, John grammatius, the dark King The horus heresy dragged on so long and is an absolute mess of a setting.