204. Gone with the Wind

Рет қаралды 10,909

2 жыл бұрын

"There was a land of cavaliers and cotton fields called the Old South".
Tom and Dominic are joined by Sarah Churchwell to discuss the 'Lost Cause' myth that has pervaded American culture for 150 years, its embodiment in both the novel and film version of Gone with the Wind, and what insight it gives into post-Civil War America.
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Пікірлер: 64

@stuartmaise9230 Жыл бұрын

This was one of the best podcasts so far! I loved the guest, and the way she was actually able to answer almost all of the questions fluently.

@TrevorBarre 4 ай бұрын

Yes, very impressive guest. Must get her book.

@t3331157 2 ай бұрын

Almost all?

@parsahasselhoff7986 3 ай бұрын

There's no way any of the Jan 6ers have actually read a 1037 page novel lol

@janettewells4708 2 ай бұрын

The northern southern divide lives KO!

@gosiachaaban2484 Жыл бұрын

I watched it as a teenager in Poland. I didn't have the context of slavery and I only remember the love story, nothing else. Perhaps some people just love the two main characters... although if this was a story trying to glorify communist regime or Germany in 30ties I would protest like Black Americans did in this case.

@Ulyssestnt 4 ай бұрын

I have never heard of an "ideal slave plantation" in my life?

@neenaj365 Ай бұрын

Consistently high quality content. Many thanks.

@decimustv4257 15 күн бұрын

I want to express my sincere thanks to the guys and of course to the great guest, Sarah Churchwell, for enhancing my awareness of the despicableness Hollywood and of the people who like this profoundly racist book/movie. I am certain that many people are going to be enraged about this podcast and complain about how wrong the guest is or how disappointed they are with the guys for not countering her points, but that's only because they are racist themselves or because they are too attached to the story and hence can't face up to the unpleasant fact that it's a white supremacist fantasy that whitewashes the evils of slavery.

@kambrose1549 21 күн бұрын

I have lived in South Africa for 50 years and this podcast has lots of echoes. The disingenuous nature of racists was sickening under apartheid too. Much food for thought.

@jimbopumbapigsticks Жыл бұрын

The only part I disagree with is the comparison between slave-owning plantations and Nazi concentration camps. Other than that, great interview.

@zachrabun7161 Жыл бұрын

Agreed, both are barbaric and cruel, but there's a difference between forcing someone to work with the intention of keeping them alive to extract as much value as you can and forcing someone to work with the intention of stripping them of every ounce of dignity to inflict as much suffering as possible before executing them.

@adrianseanheidmann4559 Ай бұрын

Is there really?

@Crowderchowder689 Жыл бұрын

She had me till the end when she went all in on the “insurrection”genesis in the civil war. And know your enemy means she views people in the USA as her enemy does that mean in her mind there is still a civil with some large amount of people wanting to subrogate black people

@sohara.... Жыл бұрын

She... her name is Sarah Churchwell, and the book is: *The Wrath to Come: Gone with the Wind and the Lies America Tells*

@parsahasselhoff7986 3 ай бұрын

A small percentage of Trump voters stormed the capital so I don't think her use of the term "enemy" applies to 40-something percent of American voters.

@leehallam9365 2 ай бұрын

I don't know how much of an influence the book or the film were. Cherry picking that one or two rioters say its their favorite doesn't prove anything. The book reflected the beliefs that had existed for 70 years already, it didn't create or develop them, and there is nothing to suggest attitudes were altered by it, in fact 30 years later came desegregation and a steady flow against the story's perspective.

@toptester301 Жыл бұрын

The klan as an organization started to help reintegrate Confederate soldiers back into society that's why they came up directly after the Civil War had ending. It was transformed into a hate group by Southerners who saw the outcome of the Civil War as a federal occupation. For example the allocation of resources land, water, mineral rights Etc. I red a Confederate soldiers Journal one time and in it he talked about being forced to fight in the war because of the Union scorched Earth policies and he seen his town is being next. He also spoke of being displaced and in poverty because of slavery as an institution in which he derived no benefit only displacement.

@zachrabun7161 Жыл бұрын

This is the problem with any discussion that doesn't recognize that, regardless of the side you fight on, war causes wounds to all sides. Perhaps some people are more or less deserving of the consequences of war, but very few walk away from war without scars of some kind, whether you were on the battlefield or not. The Confederacy was wrong and I'm glad they lost. I say this as a white southerner who knows for a fact had ancestors that fought for the Confederacy. I don't know much about their motivation, but I do know they did not own slaves and were not rich. I don't know how much they cared about slavery, but I can fully believe and understand the desire to defend your state from what you view as aggression. Whether it was the reality or the just the fiction they chose to believe, many southerners saw this war as a defensive action taken against an overbearing federal government. The scars of Sherman's march still dot the landscape of Georgia to this day. The many chimneys standing forlornly in the fields where a family's home once stood, left for posterity so that people wouldn't forget the terrible cost of that war for those caught in Sherman's path.

@saphy45-uu8rd 4 ай бұрын

The original klan started to terrorize blacks. It committed night raids and pulled them out of their homes and murdered them, often torturing them first. They also killed white people who they deemed to not be sufficiently racist.

@fuferito Ай бұрын

The blinkered tunnel vision of some academics shows up, yet again. The film, _Gone With the Wind_ was an international sensation in many, many non-English speaking countries; countries that, although never experienced slavery, sympathized against it, yet were nevertheless compelled to root for people on the losing side of the American Civil War because the main characters (yes, Mamy included) were too mesmerizing to ignore. Another example of when the invited "expert" on the subject almost ruins the episode.

@adrianseanheidmann4559 Ай бұрын

This comment section is amazing. So many screeching about "mUh woKE prOpAgAndA"

@bnjmnwst 11 ай бұрын

This woman compared getting married at a former plantation to doing the same at Dachau. I'm out.

@catherinekennedy4064 7 ай бұрын

Plantations are attractive and make for pretty pictures. Concentration camps are grim and mostly destroyed.

@persebra Ай бұрын

I more compare it to a labor camp, but getting married at a pretty labor camp is still bad.

@adrianseanheidmann4559 Ай бұрын

It's seriously of bad taste to get married at a fucking plantation though.

@michaelbedford8017 Жыл бұрын

Can anyone explain why Americans say: ...dont GIVE a damn. while in British English we say: ...don't give a DAMN.

@gsdavis91 Жыл бұрын

I think that's more of an idiosyncrasy demanded by the censors of the time and the tone that the movie was going for. As you may know, there was some controversy as to whether the word "damn" could be used in the movie at all. Eventually the motion picture censors relented. Gable reads the line in such a way that expresses his contempt for Scarlett's behavior without seeming unnecessarily cruel or bitter. I don't give a DAMN would have emphasized the profanity of the final line (contrary to the censors' wishes), and made the character seem vindictive. I don't GIVE a damn, de-emphasizes the profanity and softens the line reading somewhat. Rhett Butler isn't saying those words to be cruel per se--it's just that he's fed up, exasperated and can't take any more. As an American, I can assure you that we emphasize words differently depending on the context and emotion intended, just as British people do.

@bnjmnwst 11 ай бұрын

Gone With The Wind is the difference. To the extent that Americans say it the way you suggest, it's because that's the way Rhett Butler said it.

@yankeegonesouth4973 5 ай бұрын

Because the British are wrong, obviously.

@nicolek.3614 5 ай бұрын

I ❤️ your podcast, but this guest is so wrong on so many levels that it’s scandalous. And shame on the two of you for nodding in agreement.

@user-qe5sv7vb9g 28 күн бұрын

Explain yourself

@CHAS1422 2 жыл бұрын

This interview is borderline 'Woke' propaganda. Agreed there was a lot of Southern propaganda in 'Gone with the Wind" but there was also a sense that the institution of slavery was doomed in the movie. The only person who had a realistic view of the Southern war cause was Rhett Butler who spoke with brutal candor to a band of arrogant, powdered wig hotheads, leading to his general ostracism. Regarding the prison as a substitute for slavery, the high rates of imprisonment of African Americans in the "free" north in 2020's is largely because crime rates are demographically commensurate with criminal violence committed by some unmentionable demographic. A person can be against racism, pro-14th amendment, seeking equality, and still realize this is true. January 6th was not an insurrection. This is more woke propaganda. It was a political riot no different than any other. We had a year of violent riots in 2020 endorsed by politicians. There were a smattering of 2 or 3 confederate flags among ten's of thousands of Yankee flags. Give me an example of any rioter other than the 0.1% who endorsed a racist confederacy.

@austinsmith3011 Жыл бұрын

What do you mean by Yankee flag? The American stars and stripes flag? Not looking for a fight, I do not know and am curious. ----------------------- IMHO, because the target of the political riot was the US Congress this makes it an insurrection. insurrection : a violent uprising against an authority or government. PS hehe.. small internet. I checked out your channel... I also mirrored philhellenes on my other channel : NYCAustinNYC

@CHAS1422 Жыл бұрын

@@austinsmith3011 Exactly what you say. There is a tendency to conflate confederacy with the modern right, especially the Jan 6th riot. A tiny fraction of them had racist motives or confederate motives. The flag they were waving was the union (Yankee) flag 1000's with maybe 3 confederate. The media focusses on the 3 confederate flags because it is better for narrative optics.

@austinsmith3011 Жыл бұрын

@@CHAS1422 Thank you for your response. kk, I am middle aged now but I never heard the Stars and Stripes called the Yankee flag before. But I have only been to the South once when I was a teenager for a week. hehe.. speaking of Yankee... I did live in the South Korea for years where I found it VERY strange that all Americans are called Yankee as an insult. So even a South Carolinian or Georgian would be a Yankee in South Korea. I grew up in Long Island, so I am a Yankee and proud of it.

@CHAS1422 Жыл бұрын

@@austinsmith3011 I have 3 ancestors who were union soldiers. 1 of them a blue blood Yankee. Appreciate your story. By the way, In my comment about Jan 6th, I am not condoning or supporting, I simply prefer to characterize the fools errand rioters by what they say about themselves. I am sick of 'woke' scapegoating, heaping all the western sins on these misguided people.

@austinsmith3011 Жыл бұрын

@@CHAS1422 I have at least one ancestor who was a union soldier. He was in Sherman's army and was there for Sherman's march to the sea. My family is still in possession of his saber and musket. According to what I was told as a child he was so horrified by what he saw after the war he became a pacifist. Fair point about the woke scapegoating. Politically I lean Left but I no fan of the woke and consider them a cancer on both American Left and on America in general. I should have mentioned above I was called a Yankee by a Korean in South Korea when exploring my new neighborhood I walked into a bar I was VERY unwelcome in because of my skin color or because they assumed correctly I am American. I was very confused at the time because I had no idea that the Korean was trying to insult me. lol.. I can only imagine how much more confused I would have been if I was a Southerner.

@maggiesimmons1084 5 ай бұрын

@54:11, the guest goes WAY left wing political, and implicitly calls Trump supporters racist. I am a Trump supporter! Half of the USA voted for Trump! According to her, we are like the KKK! I downvote this vid in total disgust!

@andrewthornber7783 3 ай бұрын

Hard as a European seeing the stupidity of Trump and what he says and does as anything but Trump being an old style confederate and racist

@stephenlight647 4 ай бұрын

As a quick postscript, I looked up her educational background…it’s so easy to spot these folks, Vassar and Princeton. 😂 She probably listens to Maddow reruns nightly and has met no one outside of the Left for years. Hey, obviously she is a real scholar and writes well, but she shows her hand so easily.

@Dahveed1982 2 ай бұрын

I’ve been loving dozens upon dozens upon dozens of your videos but wtf is this? I’m at your break and all you’ve done is talk about how this book is about racism. Talk about the book, not what other people say about the book.