It’s entirely possible I took a nap on the table..

As a resident of Western Canada I can tell you that down doesn't need to be "wet" for its performance to be hampered, down is only good for maybe 2 months out of the summer and 2 months in the winter here when it's either too hot or cold to be humid. I switched to synthetics and they are way more consistent across all weather conditions.

I hear this a lot ... "why are you wet in the first place? Does synthetic insulation work as well wet as they say? Is it even relevant?" Ok so I'm not saying all synthetics are created equal either but yea it happens, it did to me. Yes it worked better than you'd expect. So yes it's a relevant argument. Here's the story. It was my first time doing a longer backpacking trip a few years ago. Up to that point I did short one night trips locally in PA. Then my buddy talked me into a 3 day trip in NH on the pemi loop. I had decent gear but nothing special. I had an osprey Atmos backpack that for some reason I assumed was water proof. Up to that point I only hiked in nice weather so I really had no idea. I had no pack liner. It had a forecast of cloudy. Pfft. It rained for 3 days straight. 50 degree days and 30s at night. Rain, sleet, hail, and crazy wind non stop for 3 days. My gear was drenched. Yup horrible rookie mistake. I know better now but still, it happened. So now I go to climb in my tent with me gear saturated and it's 30 something and windy. My sleeping bag was saturated and so we're my spare layers. I done fucked up. I thought I was gonna get hypothermia and die. So I put on every wet later I had, crawled in my sleeping bag, and hoped for the best. All my gear was sythetic. No down gear at all. Well next thing I know I was over heating, sweating actually. I pealed layers off. I was amazed. So yea it works. Or at least my fairly cheap marmot nano 25 did. I now do things smarter and use pack liners and such and I do carry down bags and a down jacket. But if i think there is a chance of crazy weather like that again I'll bring synthetic stuff just in case. It literally did save my life. I find it funny we as a community say "cotton kills" because it stays wet and makes you cold so don't wear it. Down stays wet and makes you cold when wet but it's the industry standard? Lol food for thought. Yea down is the most compressible and light so I use it too. But is it really that crazy or far fetched to say synthetic insulation is good for the same reason sythetic clothing layers are good? Why do so many consider this taboo? And if you can rock down in the rain safely then I guess you can rock cotton too... Just saying. 🤷

$150 for a budget sleeping bag bro I thought budget meant like McDonald’s budget not Red Robin budget 😂

ooh Dan thanks for the recommendations. You're the 1st who brought my attention to Western Mountaineering. Just picked up an Alpinlight and Kodiak. They're amazing and a tiny bit roomier for a bigger guy than me. I categorize them as "elvish made" the stitching is flawless. Can't wait to test em out!

Dan budget: $200 My budget: $20

I backpack in the CO Rockies. I've had high end +/-15 deg down bags 'wet out' (fail) in the 25-35 deg F range numerous times - it doesn't take "completely wet" to fail - and have gotten cold as a result . I have well ventilated tents (hilleberg, triplex). I'm not sure if I'd say synthetic is 'out' in that temp range. I think light down bags can be really bad in that range. For that range or colder, I've found Feathered Friends bags with WP material work much better than Western Mountaineering bags or like with 'less-than WP' outer material. I use a 0 deg FF bag with WP material from 40 deg F down to 5 deg (with a down jacket when it gets super cold). I use a Marmot bag with WP material for colder temps. There's a range there I'd be very cautious going with a light weight down bag. Just my experiences, and don't get me wrong - I like Dan a lot - just have to disagree a little on this one.

Here in Western Oregon we have a name for down bags: sponge. Roughly 8 months a year is rains or snows, and the snow is generally very wet. Down bags are fine for overnight, but they speak up the moisture over a the days or so. Synthetic bags don't some up the moisture as quickly and they dry much faster--sometimes just through body heat. Yes, I've spent more than one night in a wet bag, both down and synthetic, it's Type 2 fun at best. But a synthetic it's more reliable and lighter weight than a soggy down bag. Each bag has a purpose, there is no universal truth other than the ratings are sketchy at best.

First time I had chance to use my Kelty Cosmic 20 was during the Texas freeze when it was hi 30s low 40s inside my home. I found myself removing layers of clothes all the way down to nearly nothing and having to partially unzip the bag before I was finally comfortable and not burning up. I can confidently say this bag would easily do you well down to at least 30 with the right pad and proper clothing. I liked it so much that I bought the 40 recently.

I'm 6' 165lbs, and I've slept warm and cozy without extra layers in sub 20F in my Kelty Cosmic 20. I used the REI Stratus pad, 2.9 r rating, and wore only long underwear. Mid 30's is obviously super comfortable without even trying, but you can definitely be comfortable with it at 20 degrees and slightly below.

The synthetic is good for me in the summer. I live in the southeast in a swampy area. The humidity really kills the down. I just have a 50 degree quilt. I have an overstuffed 20 for winter

Super happy you included the kelty! I can vouch for it!

I love my REI radiant 20. Pro tip for smaller people: larger kids gear works for cheaper.

I have the kelty 20 and I can’t recommend that bag enough. It has some water repellent coating so if it’s humid it will not bunch up. It’s great for northeast 3 season backpacking. My friend also bought one and he absolutely loves it too. One recommendation I would make is wait till they go on sale and I promise you won’t regret it. I’m not an ultralight guy either so factor that into my opinion.

Good video, Dan. I can attest to the WM bag's quality - even has the employee's name who checked the bag attached. I bought the WM Sequoia (rated 5 degree) semi-rectangular bag and used it a couple of weeks ago in the ADK and the comfort was superb. But I'm gonna sell it because my future hikes will not require such a warm bag.

Hi I have the kelty two years now. On a therapist foam pad, I used it to 24f with my puffy on. I have a therapist air mattress now, made a HUGR difference. Down to mid twenties just normal bed clothes. It ways 40oz in a men's long like you had, compresses nicely too. For 200 bucks, I'd recommend it too.

Thanks for the breakdown. Looking to buy a couple bags this weekend for cooler weather down here in GA so this couldn’t have been better timing wise . Awesome content as usual . It has been so cool watching your sub scriber count climbing steadily over this last year. Keep it up 👍🏼

Good stuff Dan! I love my 5 degree Zpacks. So warm!!

I have the MegaLite, I enjoy the lighter weight since I usually go hiking when it is a bit watmer. Around freezing I use a warm liner as well. I love it.

Me: *Listens to the prices these sleeping bags Also me: *Remembering sleeping fairly soundly in freezing weather with a smoking jacket and a poncho liner.

Thanks for the video Dan. Hope you and your family is doing well.

I Owen the western mountaineering alpinelite - The last sleeping bag you ever need . I use it as a quilt when it’s warm outside and I take it in the winter easily .

I'd love to see a video like this be comparing quilts!

BUDGET BAG: Marmot Trestles 20 Eco. It's been discontinued but there are plenty floating around there in the clearance market. They weigh the same as the Kelty Cosmic Down 20, but are generally available for about $125 or less. It is a standard sized mummy. I'm 58" around the shoulders, so it's a little tight for me around that area, but foot area is fine and if you're built fairly normally, you'll be fine. I've actually started just using it as more of a quilt to some degree, just leaving the top area unzipped. It's worked fine so far.

I have that kelty. I used it when it got down to 35°F and I was chilly at times, but I was also only in boxers. My wife got it for me as a gift for $120! It’s great for a weekend hike, and it packs pretty small with a STS compression sack. Highly recommend it! That being said, your videos have cost me a lot of money in upgrades in the past year. I’m $600 poorer as of right now, and I’m panicking trying to think of an excuse to tell the wife why I replaced her gift with something better. I feel like I’ve cheated on her!! 🤣🤣😬

Western mountaineering company and their gear rocks ! Best zipper set up for a bag on the planet. I also have a North Face Blue kazoo that is a great bag too. It’s all about costs, vs warmth, vs weight. Personally I only chose these brands because they offered short versions in addition to long versions.

If you are highly allergic against down, it does matter immensely. I can only sleep in synthetic, and as long as my family shares a tent with me, they have to use synthetic, too.

Thumbs up for high-quality bags! It makes sense. Although, I woudn't spend 600 on this one... Cumulus Panyam 600 is like 1020grams and has similar comfort (-7°C, 20°F) for half the price.

I was completely and literally soaked in The Great Smokey Mountains in temps down to the fourties’. It rained for 2 days and I slept in a Coleman Qualifoil bag both nights and without a sleeping pad! It’s a terrible comparison but it was a little like sleeping in your own pee. This was my first backpacking trip! I believe that synthetic Coleman sleeping bag saved my life.

Love my Kelty Cosmic Down. I’ve had that down to 22 degrees F wearing thermals & with a bag liner and was toasty all night with it.

Great video and comparison! We are currently looking at sleeping bags for the family out on the trails.

I got the Kelty cosmic. The purple and white one . It is amazing. So warm and soft . It served me well for 3 years and counting!

I have not slept in a totally wet sleeping bag. However I have slept in low temperature, high relative humidity situations. Or, to put it another way, situations where the dew point is close to to the temperature. This is actually a fairly frequent occurrence in the Appalachian mountains. What happens is that you take your (totally dry) bag out of your pack and the imperceptible perpetration will condense within the insulation before it gets outside the bag. This can cause the down to collapse which of course degrades its value as insulation until it fully dries out again. Solutions: wear enough layers to pump out enough heat so that condensation happens outside the bag. OR use a vapor barrier liner. OR use a synthetic overquilt. With this last option you will still have dampness in the overquilt, however APEX (especially) and other synthetics as well are far less susceptible to down collapse.

Great video. And Western Mountaineering bags are a work of art 👍

I too have the Cosmic 20 and found it very comfortable at 24F, haven't had it lower. Very good Budget bag.

The Kelty Cosmic 20 has served me well.

I'm about to watch it..please keep all the bags with the same exact temperature range so its not apples to oranges more than it needs to be!! Sleeping bags are a little like hiking shoes maybe? Know what I mean?!! Love ya brother and I'm excited to watch it.. you cheer us up Daniel and thats pretty much golden in these covid 19 days. Dare I say it brother..your cozy!!! In a really manly way.

Love this channel man. Subbed with notifications on.... Good job on these videos guy. Lots of good information you're putting out here. Thank You. I'm looking for a winter bag for 10 degrees or so comfort....and it has to be a long. I'm 6'4" and 190 lbs....I have the correct pad(s).... Can be down or synthetic....don't care. Would like it to be packable somewhat....not ultralight though. I had a North Face Aleutian and I really liked it....it just wore out finally though....been using it over 10 years....and it's just time to get a new one. Any suggestions on something in the 100 to 200 dollar price range?

Always bringing the 🔥 videos.

My sleeping bag hoodie and foot-box sometimes come into contact with my tent wall when its raining. The bag will get a bit wet on the outside. It was never so much that i felt anything inside, tho im glad I wasn't in my summer down bag in those nights. Also one time I got surprised by rain and had to go to sleep with damp cloths and the synthetic bag dried them over night with me not freezing. I know that's more of a behavior issue or a bad tent but if you are new to the outdoor stuff things just don't go as planed and you get wet sometimes.

I've beem using a Montbell Down Hugger 900 fill 1-lb 9-oz (690g) $560. Comfort Rating 23°F. Its been a great bag for me with while layering. I was looking to shave weight and create more room in my backpack at the same time as my other 20° Degree 600 fill mummy bag was too bulky and heavy, weighs over 2 pounds... Tell you what thow, that Western Mountaineering Alpenlite bag looks super nice and has great features, that zipper! If it wasn't for my Montbell, I'd buy that one. There made in San Jose Calif., just 20 minutes away from me. 🇺🇸

For budget oriented people there are down sleeping bags on aliexpress for 60-130$. Brand is aegismax. The 10C° small green one, 5C° M2 and 0C° M3 are true to the comfort rating. The down is not the high end treated type but its still goose with good loft. Slept in the small green one rated 10C comfort in 5C with a liner and 2 layer cloths. Was warm. Planing to buy their 0C° one and combine with the 10C° for those rare german nights that are lower than -5C°. Negatives are long shipping time, 3-6 weeks. The bag smells when new, i read its actually good because its the oil that you smell and its like a natural treatment but I had to air it out 1 weak to make it ok. The smell is very little now. And last the down is good in quality but it is not sourced ethical I assume.

Outstanding AF video....Thank-you for the great explanation

I used your code a couple months ago to save a few bucks on the Sea to Summit TKii. Not the lightest but very roomy. I like that the give you a down certificate (my down was certified at 790 fill power). Thanks for saving me some money on a sweet bag!

I have definitely slept in a completely wet sleeping bag. It was horrible. The rain came gushing down one night and actually formed a NEW river that went right through the middle of my tent, and the water volume was so much it actually went up OVER the bathtub floor. I still carry down, because that experience was rare, but I am mindful of it's shell, and so forth.

I think with synthetic its more about its ability to dry alot easier then down ifnit does get wet. Also I dont think anyone would be comfortable in a soaking wet bag, but a few days in a dense fog and the down can start to lose insulation value. I like synthetic living in NY. We can get pretty humid in the summer with days of sustained heavy rains at times.

Western Mountaineering has baffles that allow you to shift the down from top to bottom depending on temperatures. If it is warmer, you shift the down to the bottom. If it is colder, you can shift down to the top. It also has a baffle that goes along the zipper to keep a draft out.

That was a great survey! Thanks.

Really great review Dan.

I got the kelty for my daughter at REI garage sale for $60. Such a steal for a great bag

I have two Western Mountaineering sleeping bags. I have the 20 ultra lite and I love it as does my daughter. We got ours on sale at EMS. Well worth the money. If you want made in the USA you will have to be willing to pay more. We spend most of our time in the White Mt of NH and the weather can be crazy. I don't like being cold and this bag has never failed us warm. Easy to back up too. Cry once.

Keep up the great work

I sell Western Mountaineering and all their bags are great. I’ve actually been to their factory, and the amount of thought they put into every detail is amazing, from the amount of down in each baffle to the cinch cord around the face. They also last forever. My coworker has a bag WM bag that his dad bought in the 70s. One feature you didn’t mention is the continuous baffles, which wrap around from the top of the bag to the bottom. This means you can actually move the down on the bottom to the top if it’s colder, or move it to the bottom when it’s warmer. Whether or not it’s worth the price is up to you, but you’d be hard pressed to find a higher quality bag at any price.

Wet performance is important as there are more options than just completely dry or completely wet. Also rain is not the only thing that can get your sleeping bag wet.

It is possible to adjust the down in the western mountaineering with the hollow tube design.

I have 2 of the kelty cosmic 20° bags and I'm happy. It had dry down. The women's specific bag is overstuffed and cut different for a women's body. I have both the men's and the woman's bag.

You are so right I love your videos don’t stop in don’t

I made a Climashield quilt for hiking and dinghy cruising, which I do a lot of each. Rolled the boat one afternoon, and the drybag the quilt was in leaked. After making it to shore, bailing the boat and sorting gear out, I ran the quilt up the mast. It was cool, overcast, humid, with moderate wind. The quilt was only a bit damp after two hours. I slept in it, in fleece that was a bit damp, and I was happily surprised that I did sleep, and well. Yes, the benefit of synthetic is real if there's any chance of gear getting wet. :>)

I bought a winner outfitter sleeping bag in June and i've hiked probably 300 miles with it in the last couple months. It's not super warm i was sleeping out at about 23 degrees and i put my whole sleeping bag inside an SOL mylar bivy and successfully did not freeze to death. Best part? Bag was $35

I have a Feathered Friends Raven 10°. I absolutely love it. Like you, I toss and turn at night. This bag is roomy and warm.

Loft on top of the user is the definitive measure of warmth. That, and the least amount of extra space inside the bag. Fill power affects the compactability of the bag as do the weights of the inner and outer fabric, size (tooth size, number 3 being the lightest, but most fragile normally used on ultralight bags). Two bags of identical design, with the same loft, but with differing fill power down will be equally warm, but the lower fill power down will make for a heavier bag. Did you mention never to leave them stuffed during storage? Stuffing compresses the down fibers, and the longer they stay compressed, the less likely they are to expand to their original size when allowed to loft. Hang or lay them out flat between trips. Down vs. synthetics: synthetic bags will be heavier, bulkier, and won't maintain their loft as long as down with repeated stuffing/unstuffing. Note: I used to sell this stuff at retail, so I'm just trying to help, because I like Dan's style (and first name, too!). 😁

Great video! would you say the kelty cosmic down 20 is roomier than the Thermodown 15? Thanks!

i have a Cosmic 20, at 20 deg, you are uncomfortable but not cold. it’s an excellent value

I'm allergic to down. Yes, it's a real allergy. So even though you don't prefer synthetic, I would appreciate your honest and knowledgeable assessment of synthetic bags.

The Alpinlite by Western Mountaineering is worth every penny. Simply the best. In fact, I just packed it up. Heading out this weekend.

USA Made, 20 Degree, 800 Fill Down, 1lb 9 oz, Heat Seeker by Hang Tight on the Etsy Website. $130.00! Good luck because he is always sold out but get in line and he can even customize it for you.

Bought this bag for my grandson on his AT hike. He began February 14th and he was always comfortable.

Have you tried any of Outdoor Vitals sleeping gear? I bought a Aerie 0 underquilt and it is very nice. I used it as a sleeping bag (with a good pad) and stayed very warm on a couple of mid 20 degree nights. I know it is an underquilt but if their regular sleeping bags perform like this underquilt they should be good.

Feathered Friends makes excellent sleeping bags as well as down clothing.

Was thinking of getting the WM Megalite with overstuff for PCT. Thoughts? Afraid Alpinlite maybe over kill plus would be super light still. Thx

Dan, have you tested any Montbell sleeping bags? Interested in the way it’s stitched for comfort in movement. Thanks

Overlanding noob here. I own that last bag... the Kelty. Couple things... I was cold in the 40's with this bag the first night I used it. On the second night we layered up with blankets in the roof top tent, which was cumbersome, cause well... the weight of all the blankets (and a 60lbs Shephard mix) was a bit much, even in a three person Tepui. On the third night, my wife and I made concerted efforts to zip up our bags completely, and even try and use the cranium hood. The effectiveness of the sleeping bag was tremendously better. Our body temps, kept in the heat, which helped make sleeping with less extra blankets manageable. Sure, we were still layered inside...but not as much as the first night. Suppose my point is, make sure you use the bag properly... regardless of the temp rating.

I got the Kelty bag but I'm pretty sure it has a manufacturing defect. Going to exchange it today for one that was made correctly as I'm fairly certain there's supposed to be a fill in the bag rather than just a zip up nylon sack, it's very light though!

When they test the bags for the EN ratings, do they factor in the R-value of a sleeping pad in any way? I realize each person is different but, generally speaking for the average person if you have a 20 degree comfort rating with a sleeping pad that has an R-value of 4 with merino wool socks, bottoms and top base layers would you be comfortable below 20 degrees? Generally speaking of course.

My dad has a story where he and his travel bud both got their sleeping bags very wet in Alaska bush. It does happen. New down seems to be much more reliable, and I prefer down bags. Point being YES, sleeping bags can get wet and you'd best have good equipment

Hey Dan. I like this video. I haven't got a sleeping bag yet. I think I might get one for Christmas this year.

Thanks Dan! I've got a gear budgeting question for you, as someone with lots of family members that I'm trying to get trail-ready. (And sorry if you've already done a segment addressing this question!) But I noticed some interesting-looking stuff selling in the "used gear" section on eBay -- at all different prices! I'm wondering if you've had experiences buying used stuff on eBay. Are there tips on making sure you don't get ripped off? Thanks again!

Feathered friends 30 degree bags are also good mid-range contenders for ~$400

Synthetic sleeping bag is good at winter when moisture from sleeper gets in bag and freezes there. You can use thinner down bag as inner bag and synthetic as outer bag. By winter I mean -30C (-22F). After few nights without ability to dry gear it would be miserably in down bag.

Western Mountaineering has an impeccable reputation. If maintained properly, people claim 20 years of unquestionable reliability.

I have the Hyperion 20 and I have to say, it is cold anywhere below 2-3deg Celsius. Always wear thermals because although it’s good at keeping you warm, it’s not that wind-resistant. Hard to say how you can’t have one without the other but you just do 😂.

You need to take a look at the carinthia defence 6 it's a very good sleeping bag

I am a slightly warm sleeper, not especially warm, and a male human, but I've certainly slept in the Kelty Cosmic 20 at temperatures below 20ºF at least half a dozen times in the Ruby Mountains, the High Sierra, and the San Rafael Swell. I wear a 100 weight fleece, wool socks, and underpants. Sometimes silkweight tights. Pretty light stuff for winter backpacking sleeping. And I use a Nemo Switchback closed cell pad with a 2.0 R rating. If I could upgrade one part of the system, it would be a warmer pad, not a warmer bag. Now I don't recommend the Cosmic 20 below 20ºF; it's really at its comfort limits there. But it's warm enough for good sleeping as rated. I wake up with extensive frost on the bag and my pack and partly or mostly frozen water bottles, so those are cold nights indeed. (Remember to keep a water bottle with you in the bag or store them upside down so that you can get water in the mornings whenever it's below 25ºF.) So I want to disagree with the idea from the video that it's good only in the mid thirties. I've slept in it many times in the mid thirties and it's nice and toasty up there, but it's plenty practical ten or fifteen degrees colder. Also, you can regularly find it on sale for $130. Try doing that with a Western Mountaineering bag!

First off I couldn't find you in my subscriptions and found out I had to resub. Bug? Tough question for you. What would the lifetime be for the NF rating? Things deteriorate over time so would a 20degree rated you bought today still be the same next November or would it maybe become like a 25degree sleeping bag?

I slept in a wet synthetic bag in a survival situation. It was wet but warm, like sleeping in a pool of my own pee. I did not enjoy it, but I was warm and got some good sleep in spite of the wetness. Synthetic really does work when wet. Had I had down in that situation, I might not have made it.

Great video and options! I currently use a MEC mummy bag and it's great. I only wish there was a pillow slot. My head always slides off the pillow or the pillow slides of my mat. Still need to figure that out

The other thing to remember about synthetic insulation: it dries tons faster than down does. So, if your bag does get wet, drying it out can be a factor.

Good bag comparison. I have 2 lightweight synthetic bags and they are comfortable around 40 to 50 degrees. I will get $600 WM one of these days.

I use a synthetic bag in the pnw where there is a ton of moisture which is why I went synthetic and have always been comfortable. I have not slept in it wet but I would hate to be in the situation where my bag got wet and couldn’t get it dry or it lost it’s function then.

Would love if you could do a "The BEST big 3 on a budget Canada edition" somehow. The options you show cost a lot more when having to pay shipping as well. Love your videos though and appreciate all the great info for getting into backpacking.

Outdoor vitals has so many budget options for lightweight bags.

Thermarest hyperion is my fav 😍

Would love to see a review of the North Face Green Kazoo that Backcountry has. I can't find a single review video.

Looking for a two person sleeping bag for truck tent camping?? Any help thanks

I love my UGQ bandit quilt.

So a situation where warm-when-wet is important might be if one's shelter is damaged in a storm, resulting in the bag getting wet. Or if the bag gets wet during the day from some mishap or another. A wet bag is going to take a long time to dry out.

Dan! You should check out Paria outdoor’s sleeping bag for budget sleeping bags

I'll toss a shoutout to the Paria Thermodown 0. Keeps my wife, who sleeps incredibly cold, toasty warm and without complaints. Incredibly cheap, packs up small, great loft, warm.

You perspirate while you sleep mate soon you Wet the down and it is less and less insulating...while you sleep. Also in the Winter the water/ sweat stays in the bag as you are packing and walking further.... does it make sense now? So Wet against waterproof up to you ... it also puts your experience on the weekend hiker park.

The Kelty cosmic down 20 has worked very well for me over the last 3 years. Was the WM bag 400 dollars more comfortable? Haha.