3D printed rim analysis: Chat with Stefan from CNCKitchen

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2 жыл бұрын

This is a complementary video for the project rim experimental videos in which Stefan from CNCKitchen shows his analysis. I was able to improve the design of this 3D printed rim thanks to his feedback! If you need some context you can watch these in which we:
- Do the first try to see if it holds the Mercedes: • Will this 3D Printed r...
- Blow it up to see how much air pressure it can hold: • At what Pressure does ...
- More to come!
Thanks a lot Stefan for making these calculations and your clear explanation! This was very insightful! Don't forget to subscribe to his channel if you haven't already! / cnckitchen
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Пікірлер: 84

@properprinting 2 жыл бұрын

The rim we tested didn’t have those threaded rods all the way through due to the lack of room between the edge of the tire and the brake caliper. Nevertheless, the points and calculations are accurate, interesting and insightful which helped with improving the design! Finite element analysis on 3D printed parts is a super interesting subject on its own, thanks Stefan!

@dreamcat4 2 жыл бұрын

i think you can do worse than read the following science paper: 'Simulation of Vehicle Pothole Test and Techniques Used' or it has other name '2016 Prediction of Aluminum Wheel Distortion under Pothole Impact' There they do try hard to calculate this stress conditions onto a simulated car wheels. and we can assume that is really the highest impact force typically found under typical everyday real world driving conditions

@arthurmorgan8966 2 жыл бұрын

@@dreamcat4 I’d think if it can survive a large pothole, it can be actually used as a car tire.

@glabifrons 2 жыл бұрын

What Stephan says at 13:48 reinforces my comment in the other video. The accidental over-torquing likely damaged the ABS around the inserts and contributed to the failure. Also, be sure you follow the old mechanics' method of tightening in a star pattern to evenly distribute the loads... never sequentially (I don't know which method you used). Also make at least 3 passes, torquing a little more on each pass to gradually introduce the stresses. This is commonly done on heads and wheel lugs to prevent warping.

@prohr4967 2 жыл бұрын

Another high end mechanics technique might be useful for torquing. As Stefan mentioned measured bolt torque and actual pretension are often two different things due to frictional properties often 20-25% off. In race motors it is common to measure pretension of head bolts using the bolt stretch itself. This is usually done by putting a dial indicator on the top of the stud and tightening the nut. If you know the tensioned length and the amount you stretched it you can get very accurate pretension loads in the +/- 5% range as I recall. Experience from race motors and a degree in mech eng. Hope this technique helps!

@glabifrons 2 жыл бұрын

@@prohr4967 You're talking about orders of magnitude difference between the strength of a nickel-iron engine block and an ABS printed rim though. You'll never get a (one-use) stretch-bolt to stretch torquing into plastic.

@jana171 2 жыл бұрын

24 minutes that just flew so fast... wow Stefan is a knowledgeable dude... Makes me so exited for the future of the rims.

@OldCurmudgeon3DP 2 жыл бұрын

"my plan for the future..." 😭😭🤣🤣

@Neptune730 2 жыл бұрын

Ooohhh that is so wrong!!! To leave us hanging like that. 😆🤣😂

@arthurmorgan8966 2 жыл бұрын

It’s a Hollywood cliffhanger trick 😂

@Vez3D 2 жыл бұрын

2 very smart brains discussing engineering stuff ..I love this guys! Makes me want to go back to school and learn engineering and mechanical. I love this stuff. That's what I should have done when I was young. Hehe. I love both of your channels. Keep it up guys! Thanks for all you do for everyone. Kisses from Quebec !!! And a rum and coke for you 2

@danilolattaro 2 жыл бұрын

My mechanical engineering thesis was around FEM simulation of FDM 3d printed parts. In the end, where Stefan said about the lack of literature about the topic, it is really true. What I did back then was to use the composites module for Ansys, and simulate the parts being printed solid with the infills oriented like the fibers of composite materials. By using this plug-in it was possible to consider the anisotropy of the material and account for it having a different strength per layer orientation. It is obviously a lot of work, as one has to built the FEM model layer by layer just like a slicer.

@properprinting 2 жыл бұрын

Very interesting subject for a thesis and interesting approach! Thanks for sharing! Are your findings published somewhere?

@danilolattaro 2 жыл бұрын

@@properprinting seems like I can't post a list here

@Mrpurple75 2 жыл бұрын

I’m glad there are people like you two that think about this stuff because it’s way beyond me

@Meerchi 2 жыл бұрын

Wow, I clicked that and expected some rather dry discussions and binge-watched 24 minutes without stuff blowing up or any finished product. Just really interesting how knowledgeable both of you are!

@CarpeLink 2 жыл бұрын

Stefan is 9001+ IQ so brilliant . I'm from America and the way we measure tightening bolts is either Gootin tight or 3 ugga duggas with impact gun.

@Eluderatnight 2 жыл бұрын

Want the exel chart for ugga dugas (bolt dia/mass, rotating mass, anvil mass to ft/lbs or Nm)?

@diterex 2 жыл бұрын

Awesome content from two of my favorite 3d printing influencers!!! Just wondering, since you have a heated chamber, would Stefan be willing to do the same simulations with a more engineering grade material?

@properprinting 2 жыл бұрын

The actual forces which the rim would experience wouldn't differ, but we talked bout some interesting experiments for the future ;)

@reinholdu9909 2 жыл бұрын

Thanks Guys. *Great Colab!* - _Impressive_ - Have seen the results already so a _Congrats_ is in order. _Hope to see more of both of you_

@dorianvincent2101 2 жыл бұрын

As a Mechanical Engineer, I work on the future Rim in aeronautics (the worldwide leader company) for years that are coming! I would be able to help for this project 🙂 I really like CNCKitchen and just met you know! I am really happy to follow your projects because I am also on some motorsport project too! (Reference to your car rim 😉) Sorryy my english is not that gooood Very interesting video! New follower🤝

@peterdocter4659 2 жыл бұрын

Love the collaboration here guys, nice stuff!

@ahmedal-modaifea4457 2 жыл бұрын

I am really looking forward to...

@MakerViking 2 жыл бұрын

Interesting information for sure! Great video as always Jón. :)

@SeanTaffert 2 жыл бұрын

Good analysis. Very well done. Dude! Why not print the rims at low density with a gyroid infill, then drill a port in the skin and pour epoxy (or something else) into the parts to cure fully dense. that would be awesome.

@theviperman3 2 жыл бұрын

What about using large metal ring plate on either side of the rim where all the bolts and nuts can react against? This will also allow the outer flanges to be supported when the tire inflates and reacts against the outer rim flange. With engineering, it becomes necessary to understand the capabilities of the materials used and also to use other materials to allow for high stress mitigation.

@avejst 2 жыл бұрын

Great Video And an Experienced guide Thanks for sharing your video to all of us :-)

@powersv2 2 жыл бұрын

When you pulled out the Giant spool it was the perfect camera and comedy angle

@Diegura250 2 жыл бұрын

Exellent speach Stefan.

@TheDillynator 2 жыл бұрын

Try Taulman alloy 910. I use it at work for functional mechanical parts.

@aimlessweasel 2 жыл бұрын

Stefan is the greatest. What about loading of the car in some of the other wheel orientations? I assume it would be fine, just curious about the redistribution when it isn't perfectly lined up with the default y. Also curious about how fast you can rotate the wheel before it bursts. Having the screws not going all the way through will probably have a major impact since they are relatively heavy and won't be supported by the tire bead. I agree with some of the other comments that creep will be the biggest problem (aside from heat and dynamic loads). I also think it would be interesting to line the outer cylinder and lip with a layer of fiberglass & epoxy (see Tech Ingredients excellent videos) to make it air tight and add some strength across layer lines. You would need an o- ring or gasket where they meet, and that would make the bolt pretension more critical. Great video and interesting series!

@tombyrne1 2 жыл бұрын

Stefan is owed a crate of beer!

@user-hp2eq1sh8h Жыл бұрын

Very interesting conversation and project but.. do you ever calculate temperature of working wheel hub with brake disc? I'm pretty sure your ABS plastic gonna melt starting from hub contact when you first try long brake. I hope I'm wrong and sorry if you already covered it in next videos - I'm only saw this one yet.

@BeefIngot 2 жыл бұрын

That's gotta be multiple thousands of dollars worth of free engineering consultancy right there.

@TommiHonkonen 2 жыл бұрын

where do you think the creality competition money went?

@callandavey3539 2 жыл бұрын

I get that this is to test out 3d printing but this seems like the sort of project that would work just as well if not better with injection molding. Its not like the part is hollow.

@arthurmorgan8966 2 жыл бұрын

9:10 Looking at this, I was wondering if your printed wheel was annealed?

@GlyphZero 2 жыл бұрын

you guys familiar with a ringfeder locking assembly? it's like two opposing cones in a doublesided cup locked together with bolts used for power transmission. i'm thinking for the hub bolts that you could turn that into a large chamfered cup to mate to the rest of the rim to change the total surface area that is sharing that torque force during operation. any knowledge i have is mostly practical as i only work on big old industrial machines - so when it works it works.

@agolac1980 2 жыл бұрын

To increase pretension of rim connecting bolts, you could remove bolt and nut insert slots, just let them protrude outside and then use larger shims. This would remove shear forces in slot corners and spread clamping forces over larger area. Steffan could add one more load case with braking acceleration (I know that for motorcycle it has been measured at aprox 1.4G on sportbikes, but should be checked for cars). This would be interesting to see as FEA results. ;o)))

@AndrewAHayes 2 жыл бұрын

Jon, for the initial drive test will you be using a rolling road? This was an extremely interesting video, Stefan is a wealth of knowledge!

@properprinting 2 жыл бұрын

We'll start in the yard and I live in an area with some roads where almost nobody comes. We'll drive to those places on the normal wheels and swap them at the location. He is!

@jackshett 2 жыл бұрын

Maybe you can get a metal ring across the whole rim on either side. Just like a typical washer but the whole ring.

@Etrehumain123 8 ай бұрын

Ahahah the cut at the end. Cliffhanger!

@Eluderatnight 2 жыл бұрын

@16:00 I wonder if adding a flange for all the bolts would solve the tq problem.

@TestTest-eb8jr 2 жыл бұрын

Stefan knows his business....

@kippie80 2 жыл бұрын

If you do another pressure test .. fill the innertube with water, then pump it up. This is how pressure tests are done. It is much safer because the water does not compress and therefore cant store much energy. AKA: no explosion.

@ryandurkin3295 Жыл бұрын

I bet a man like you could make the world first fully 3d printed E scooter .

@henry67278 2 жыл бұрын

Just had a thought, I would recommend mounting the wheel to the front set of the car If rear wheel drive and vice versa as to reduce forces in the wheel when driving and to disable the break for the 3d printed wheel to give it the best chance of working. After test if still working enable the breaks and mount It to the wheels with drive. Hope it made sense. I'd also love to see a discord server for the community to help.

@properprinting 2 жыл бұрын

I'm going to print four of them eventually😉

@henry67278 2 жыл бұрын

@@properprinting I am aware but it is still in the development stage. Destructive testing is good but the information gained upto that point is even better

@properprinting 2 жыл бұрын

@@henry67278 That's true! The next video will be still with one rim and place that at the back of the car because I think that steering will be quite a challenge for it to overcome. If that works we'll put it at the front. If we mange to drive, accelerate, steer and brake I'll print 3 more. Changes are that it won't survive this so I recon some improvement is still needed, probably at the part where those inserts are seated in. This will be an ongoing project parallel to the other projects I'll make videos about :)

@henry67278 2 жыл бұрын

Looking forward to it :)

@sporluck 2 жыл бұрын

Not sure what to say other than this was great. maybe I'd have something better if I had more coffee in my system. But Jon's faces to the camera pretty much the same I was making.

@kevincrawford6864 2 жыл бұрын

Wouldn't carbon nylon be a better material for this?

@someonesays8022 2 жыл бұрын

I believe that programs that I have used in the past, like Femap or Ansys, are capable of calculating non isotropic materials. Such as composites.

@Michallote 2 жыл бұрын

Yes you just need to define a coordinate system for reference to the printing orientation and define a material with different yield values and elastic modulus for xyz. When assigning the material just use what you want to be the printing orientation

@arthurmorgan8966 2 жыл бұрын

Come to think of it, if this was injection molded single piece from something like PC blended with carbon or glass fibers, damn. It would be actually usable, commercially available choice.

@krelis77 2 жыл бұрын

Wy don’t you use the 3d printed rim as a mold and cast the rims with alumium/steel/… yourself. I think its a more save solution if I hear the torque specs of your ABS Rim💪. Love to see this proces in detail by the way 😉. Software used is all been done in solidworks? Autodesk force? Tekla structures?

@arthurmorgan8966 2 жыл бұрын

I always imagined Stefan working at a CNC vendor.

@landlocked4771 2 жыл бұрын

You may have to print airless tpu tires. Wonder how much that would cost?

@properprinting 2 жыл бұрын

I do have a fun idea to approach this, but it would cost a small fortune xD

@gold-junge91 2 жыл бұрын

What’s the future plan ?!??? Maaaaannnnn why

@Engineerd3d 2 жыл бұрын

I think 260c is not enough at those nozzle diameters. Also consider putting double 40w heater blocks with a long heat brake and 0 retraction. I would go to 280c or even 300c so you get the absolute best layer adhesion. I find 260c with an e3d extruder is barely enough to accommodate a .6mm nozzle.

@properprinting 2 жыл бұрын

You're right. I did some thorough tests a while ago and ended up printing everything at 280 degrees C

@janetizzy6741 2 жыл бұрын

Oh boy, the only thing better than breaking things is blowing them up!

@Ddv1390 2 жыл бұрын

I love u Stefan

@johnnyjoseph1389 2 жыл бұрын

Wouldn't you be better off to go with smaller diameter bolts around the outside of the wheel so that you could attain proper pretension of the bolt itself without overly stressing the printed part?

@IronMan-yg4qw 2 жыл бұрын

i would do a test with a smaller scale rim/tire. :\ i would do a topology optimization on it too.

@properprinting 2 жыл бұрын

I already did a topology optimization, but this resulted in a more difficult to print part. This rim can be printed with almost no support material. The reason for this project is that I want to print large and strong things for future projects. I can only gain experience by doing just that ;)

@IronMan-yg4qw 2 жыл бұрын

some topo optomization programs can account for the least 3d print supports. like ptc creo which i use. :)

@jenshendriks9092 2 жыл бұрын

Damn you tease

@monstercameron 2 жыл бұрын

been watching rob dahm i see

@DarthTater5738 2 жыл бұрын

My plan for the future is to…..

@properprinting 2 жыл бұрын

nothing like a good cliffhanger😆

@el_mario_reus 2 жыл бұрын

Pp? 😊

@juergen5045 2 жыл бұрын

hi, wenn du eine felge machen willst,dann geht das nur mit einer form,die du mit 3d druck machst.und die formen mir resin ausgießen.nur so wirst du erfolg haben

@banknote501 2 жыл бұрын

Er wird es auch so schaffen. Der Drucktest war schon ziemlich erfolgreich.

@taattataattataattata 2 жыл бұрын

usw a washer

@mat7711 2 жыл бұрын

Don't get me wrong, I like your channel a lot but unfortunately a few significant mistakes were made. First, no convergence analysis of the solution (probably because the results shot off into space or due to software limitation of the number of nodes). Second, simulating an entire axisymmetric element for these loading conditions? WTF. Not to mention solving the contacts.... for a material with anisotropic properties. Third, the bolted connections were modeled in a way that is inappropriate in this application. It is not true that the analysis of the rim is complicated by the nature of the load transfer...., but that's another story. I suggest that you consider the loading condition during driving (e.g. acceleration/braking) and turning while the vehicle is stopped.

@dionysus7055 2 жыл бұрын

FIRST

@TommiHonkonen 2 жыл бұрын

I'll just pretend to believe everything said is correct and the simulation is valid and that it's possible to get any valid results out of 3d printed parts.