I didn’t see any bubbles but without a doubt it did impart hydrogen in the weld, but infinitely less than that 6010. 6010 has a high level of moisture in it when it’s packaged, 7018 doesn’t. For the 7018 to hit the point it had as much hydrogen as that 6010 I think the flux would fall off the rod lol. On mild steel it’s not a issue, but on higher strength steel it definitely could be. One of the most confusing things about picking a stick rod is the common thought that people should use 7014 or another rod instead of 7018 because 7018 has “storage requirements”. The truth is, 7018 can safely weld higher strength steel and 7014/6013/6011/6010 cant. Even a 7018 that was outside of a container for months will still likely be safer to use on high strength steel than any non low hydrogen rod. With MiG and tig they don’t have flux that can pickup hydrogen so they aren’t really affected.

This is amazing to learn! 💜🤯

Awesome 😀. Hopefully it chews up those nasty logs 🪵 lol.

So the thickness of material can play a roll, the probability of it happening goes up as the material gets thicker, because of how fast the temperature drops near the weld pool. It could happen on thinner material as well. It’s somewhat uncommon to be welding on higher strength steel below 1/4inch thick but ar500 and many alloy plates can be 1/4 or thinner. Welding those with MiG or tig would mostly remove the risk of hydrogen embrittlement. Or of course a properly stored 7018. 6011s potassium is used to aid in arc stabilization on a/c. Since a/c welders have a point of 0 volts as it crosses the wave form, the arc will go out. Potassium will keep the arc lit. I didn’t know 7018ac had that, it would make sense because many ac transformers will struggle a bit with 7018s. I had a old Lincoln buzz box and it would run some 7018s despite them not specifying AC, but most 7018s it would struggle with.

@@makingmistakeswithgreg "technically" regular 7018 is supposed to work on AC but they never seem to.

​Interestingly enough, I had a Forney AC buzzbox that hated 7018 on AC, but recently I upgraded to an old school Lincoln Idealarc 250/300, one of the round top 1960s models, and of course I use DC for most welding, but for shits and giggled I tried 7018 on AC, and this machine runs 7018 on AC fairly well. So maybe machine is a factor as well. These also weren't 7018AC electrodes, standard Lincoln Excalibur 7018-H4R and some Hobart 7018-1.

@@yurimodin7333. Yeah, a lot of the normal 7018s that say ac run poorly. My dynasty 210 has a ac stick option and it will run any 7018 rod on AC, but it is the exception (I think it may have a pilot arc to help keep it lit). Older buzz boxes tend to not like non ac rods that’s for sure.

@@robmurphy806 So I owned a ideal arc 250, it’s quite the beast. I even opened mine up to figure out how it worked. There are probably a couple of reasons it was capable of running 7018 rods on AC where is the normal tombstone wasn’t. It has a giant output choke (they call it a reactor), a giant transformer, and it has high open circuit voltage. Basically as the voltage crosses zero during the AC wave there is so much electrical “push” combined with voltage that it is able to maintain a useable arc. The normal tombstone is far more limited due to much smaller components and lower voltage it is capable of. The biggest limiting factor of the tombstones vs your ideal arc is on DC the dc capable tombstones can only output something like 120amps. Your ideal arc will output 250, which if you’re into light dimming and running big rods is perfect lol.

Thanks 😀. I have seen the test done before in videos but never in person. The amount of escaping gas off that 6010 is pretty crazy in person, definitely more than I expected.

So I have a bunch of thoughts on this. The 6010 root 7018 fill/cap makes sense for in field pipe welding. The fitup on infield pipe is often poor (aka wide gap, too narrow of a gap, high/low fitup where the bevels don’t line up, and poor material condition. The 6010 rod is so much easier to weld a poorly fitup with, 7018 tends to just drip or get out of control when welding a open root of varying gap size. So the 6010just makes it easier to make a solid defect free root pass. Being that the root pass is very thin, and will be backed up by a bunch of 7018 passes, the hydrogen in the welded area will likely be baked completely out. The first pass after the root will have the root glowing red so the hydrogen is pretty much gone. It’s also such a small area of the weld itself that a crack in that area will likely not cause complete weld failure. It is also common for 7010 and 8010 to be used as a root pass on pipe in the case of higher strength steels. They aren’t low hydrogen but they are higher strength than 6010. On mild steel pipe you could do 6010 all the way out without much issue.

The hydrogen problem mostly affects stick welding and certain flux core wires. The issue is the flux absorbs moisture from the air which becomes diffused into the weld and area around it. For a lot of stuff you might weld it’s not really a huge issue, however if you happen to weld something susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement (think high strength, high wear resistant, or high impact resistance steels) your welds can fail because of it. The safe bet on welding such materials is to stick with low hydrogen rods or processes to avoid issues. This video I made a while ago: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/rahmga2HrKqZiWQ.htmlsi=-puIyRHU2lOIqbXf covers everything you need to know dealing with this. It’s a lengthy video but it will give a lot better of understanding. As always if you don’t understand something feel free to ask questions 😀

You’re welcome 😀. That mineral oil in the container was baby oil, and when you throw hot welding plates in it the smell is sort of like a cake 🎂. Not one I would want to eat though lol.

I will be doing a bunch more strength comparisons 😀. I can do a hardface rod test, however it’s hard to say if the weld will make it through cooling. Hardface produces very strong welds but they are brittle. To actually weld a fillet weld with them would dilute so much filler into the plates I bet it would break at less pressure than 7018. I will test it though 😀

If you look up hydrogen cracking or underbead weld cracking you can see pictures of what happens in real life welds. A significant loss in ductility means it will fail at reduced stress. Some welds fail when stressed and others fail just after welding. Basically 7018 and other low hydrogen rods exist to give the ability for a person to stick weld higher strength steel and eliminate the risk of hydrogen embrittlement. 6010-11/6013/7014/etc all put far more hydrogen into the weld, which is why they aren’t substitutes for low hydrogen rods. You’re better off using a improperly stored 7018 over other rods all things considered if that’s your only option.

I knew the application an use but had the wrong preception how the embrittlement occurs. I use oerlikon fincord and overcord (6013) for general purpose and böhler spezial D (7016) for more critical application. Thus I'm quite sure my cheap welders can not handle 6010 and these are quite expensive here I dont have them. Mig I use the most, because my MIG welder is the only really serious I have (and I like it because of speed - and my limited skills with stick)

You’re welcome 😀. 6010 can weld a lot of things, but when it comes to higher strength steels it’s best to avoid it. It’s not a guaranteed “it’s going to fail” but anything you can do to avoid failure is best lol.

You’re welcome 😀. 6010 can weld a lot of things, but when it comes to higher strength steels it’s best to avoid it. It’s not a guaranteed “it’s going to fail” but anything you can do to avoid failure is best lol.

i welded a cake one with stick uhm it was like the worst looking cake one y becouse i was runing a stick, arkks arehot so i mixed flour water and sugar put on metal then weled till the bater was done 😂 ( i have a hard time tring not to break into tears laughing ) and it " worked" uhm but it hade to much rust in. it

Excellent thoughts and question. I have heard well respected pipe welders on KZfaq and online talk about exactly what you are. It’s common for them to say the metal “sweats” and you need to get the hydrogen out of it. I think this is a classic case of someone seeing something happen, and make the wrong assumption about the cause of what they are seeing. There is a huge difference between condensation forming on a metal surface being heated and hydrogen escaping from a metal. What those pipe welders were seeing was condensation (much like if you breathe on a mirror) and not “sweating hydrogen” out of the metal. Hydrogen can exist in metal, the atoms are so small they can pass through the material likes it’s not there, that is my understanding. The amount of hydrogen atoms would likely be minimal, because over time they would escape. Preheating the pipe before or during welding would be done for a number of reasons. 1) the material being welded has preheat requirements to prevent fast cooling and hot short cracking. 2) it’s common to weld pipe with 6010-7010, which both impart a massive amount of hydrogen into the weld. By preheating the pipe along with maintaining elevated temps, the hydrogen from the rod will escape faster. The first root pass will likely have all the hydrogen completely escape before the following passes because of the elevated temps. If you weld on a cold plate with 6010 it can take a long time for all the hydrogen to escape. If you ran say a 6 pass weld on cold thick steel pipe it’s possible hydrogen escaping multiple passes below your final passes is diffusing into your weld pool along with what the rods flux is putting into it. The heating of the pipe will limit the hydrogen to only what the rod puts in and not combining other passes as well. 3) the slower cooling due to preheat will likely change the weld favorably towards more ductile or softer, basically it will effect the grain structure and heat affected zone properties. The desire for specific results (which are found via testing) could require preheat. Yes preheat could force hydrogen atoms out of the base material, but this would not be visible to the naked eye, and the welders that say the pipe is sweating simply don’t understand what they are actually seeing. The preheat and maintaining of a specified temp has more to do with prevention of the buildup of hydrogen from multiple passes (that was put into the material by the welding rods) than it it does to dry out the base material. Hopefully that makes sense and clears up what’s going on.

I think they get around spec for 7018 when it comes to non sealed containers by generic labeling stuff. Let me explain: like everything with the AWS there are multiple layers and a lot of confusion. Something labeled as 7018 must meet code for 7018, but what that code specifies may not be what you think. 7018 is known as a low hydrogen rod, but that level is not specified in a normal 7018 in many cases. All 7018s have low hydrogen from the factory because the flux doesn’t contain the moisture virtually all other rods have. So they are low hydrogen in comparison to everything else. Now when you get into specific 7018 rods like 7018H4R, the additional H4R means it met testing spec of less than 4ML diffusible hydrogen for the test and the R stands for meeting absorbed moisture test requirements. The only way it’s possible for the rods to meet that requirement is to be hermetically sealed in a container. To complicate matters more sometimes you will find the same 7018h4r labeled rods sold in non specified generic 7018 containers instead of hermitically sealed packages (which is basically vacuum packed foil or metal pull tab containers). Pretty freaking confusing and that’s just scratching the surface. Based on what the AWS says the proper way to deal with the risk of hydrogen embrittlement is, the solution is to use code specified rods (H4R) in sealed packs and use them within the specified window (per manufacture). If you go outside that window you must put them in a rod oven to stabilize them. If they have been out for longer than the window of the moisture resistance specifies (manufacture specific) you must bake them at higher temperature and then keep them stored at a reduced stabilized temp. Sounds like a lot of work and it is, which is why the easiest way to deal with it is just buy small packs of esab 7018-prime and use a pack for a critical job, then store the left over rods in a sealed container with desiccant. They will still be fine for any normal jobs, but critical work you use a brand new pack. It doesn’t pay cost wise to keep even a small rod oven running over a pack of sealed rods for the average person. Not to mention the H4R rods are so moisture resistant (and low moisture from the factory) the chance of a failure due to hydrogen embrittlement is about 0. That’s where a lot of people get confused, they think you can just run 7014 or 6011 and “avoid” 7018s storage requirements. The truth is the storage requirements give the 7018 the ability to weld stuff safely. Due to the moisture resistance of the H4R rods and the zero moisture in the flux from the factory, they are infinitely safer to use to weld anything higher strength over any non low hydrogen rod, even if they were stored improperly. I definitely will have to test doing 6010 root with a 7018 full/cap. The results will be interesting I am sure. I did get a shop press and it’s all together. In a few days I will be working on testing with it 😀. I just finished shooting a video where I tested 7018 on beveled plates, that has some surprising results that will require further testing. 😀

@@makingmistakeswithgreg That was a fantastic explanation, and it really cleared many things up for me, and I’m sure others will also have a much better understanding of the whole Low-Hydrogen rod process and proper application. I like the idea of the smaller individually hermetically sealed packages by ESAB 7018-1 Prime rods. I wish the same was true for 6010 5P+, which runs really well on my Miller Multimatic 215 (despite Millers recommendation to NOT run 6010 rods with it - I’m betting the same would be true of other brand inverter weldsers), as the Lincoln 6010 5P+ 10 pound cans are the smallest quantity available costing about $80/can (which is fine for professionals and pipeline workers, but a little too expensive for us hobbyists. Perhaps your (this reply) of the 7018 clarification, would be worthy of its own video. I know it would have grabbed my attention when searching for videos about 7018, and would have been very helpful, and I’m sure it would certainly help others produce better safer welds. I’m really looking forward to both the beveled root pass welds and bend test with your new press. You probably won’t learn this kind of stuff in welding school LOL Thank you for your tireless efforts and extensive welding knowledge/experience to help us improve our skills as welders.

If I can get ahold some some, those are extremely uncommon here in the states. I will make a few phone calls and see what I can find.

@@makingmistakeswithgreg the 7027 i use are elga maxeta 5

@@makingmistakeswithgreg I've never even heard of 7027. Or anything ending in 27, lol?

So the flux of all rods can pickup moisture from the air/environment around it. Some rods (6010/6013/7014/7024/etc) are not specified as low hydrogen (meaning the flux does contain hydrogen). 6010 in particular has a massive amount of hydrogen (moisture) in it, and it is manufactured that way. By code you can’t turn a non low hydrogen rod into low hydrogen by baking it out. Also, Hydrogen present in the arc has a effect on the weld, it (in small amounts) is used in certain MiG welding gas mixtures. I can tell you that the book definition of what happens during hydrogen embrittlement of metal is the following: en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_embrittlement . From a standpoint of how it exactly functions as far as dissolves into the weld, (if it’s atomic, gaseous, or something else) that’s far above what I have studied, but definitely worth looking into. I have seen microscopic pictures of what happens to the higher strength steel, and combined with testing low hydrogen vs non low hydrogen rods you can clearly see bubbles escaping a finished weld only on non low hydrogen rods.

@@makingmistakeswithgreg So then that's what I was saying That's what I was thinking is that there was moisture in the rods and no hydrogen if it's in the if it's present due to the moisture The only way to get rid of it would be to ignite it with a some type of flame actually That's why drying it will not get rid of the hydrogen.. So now my question to you is because I actually I do understand the science on it and it is what I explained. Could it be that especially with 6010 rods them flaking off into the weld and it not solidifying be the reason why hydrogen actually gets trapped in there.. or maybe not running the 6010 rod as hot as it should be and so it flakes off into the weld? And I'm just talking very minute pieces something that we probably wouldn't even see when we're running running a bead

Per AWS code they allow one to bake a low hydrogen rod (7018, 7016, 7015, etc) rod at a higher temp for a extended time to remove any hydrogen out of the flux. This is acceptable to do one time to a rod that was exposed to the air for longer than it’s moisture resistance rating allows for. It is done at a higher temperature than the normal rod storage temp. The temp would be somewhere around 600 from what I remember. Normal rod storage is in the ballpark of 250-350degrees. You can’t bake out a rod more than once due to the flux likely failing. Normal rod storage temps aren’t high enough to meet the h4 designation (or less) of the rod. I will explain what is meant by that. In AWS and manufactures it is referred to as hydrogen and not H2O because the hydrogen is what is the problem. A non low hydrogen rod is manufactured with h2o in the flux, low hydrogen is not. The low hydrogen rod can be welded with directly out of a sealed container and meet low hydrogen specifications. The specifications in specific are often “H4” which means 4ml or less of diffuseable hydrogen per 100g of weld metal. They actually test the deposited metal from a rod and verify this. So literally they know how much diffused hydrogen is in the weld metal. They are not looking for diffused h2o, but hydrogen in specific. I understand what you’re saying about the electrolysis process splitting hydrogen out of h20. I am not sure that is exactly what’s happening in this situation. When stick welding you have a pool of molten metal with liquified flux that is in a process of solidifying. Whatever is in the flux is in the solidifying metal. Making things worse, the trapped hydrogen is often under the weld bead/driven away from the rod, which makes the effects (cracks and microscopic pores) not visible from the surface. The hydrogen itself is the issue and it’s possible it is being absorbed directly from the flux, from electrolysis, or some other means. Specifically it’s stated in a book I have about metals and how to weld them, that hydrogen ions are diffused into the weld, and can combine to form hydrogen gas. It’s stated that the hydrogen atoms themselves are destructive but when they combine into a gas they stress a material further. Again all of that stuff is way over my pay grade lol.

​@@makingmistakeswithgreg okay so after reading that Wikipedia page I'm almost guaranteeing I'm right The flux at some point is not melting or solidifying enough during the welding process. Or possibly due to short arc length or maybe long arc length even I guess but that slag cools so fast. That it does not have time to get to the surface. Because like what I said hydrogen and oxygen through electrolysis separate (so it's H2O) separate into two hydrogen and one oxygen gas and then as your welding you're igniting the hydrogen there (that's probably why you get so much spatter with 6010 and other rods of course I'm just using that as example) and when you ignite hydrogen it turns back to water. So like if you have a hydrogen engine the byproduct is 100% water that comes out of your exhaust, no gases. Let me ask you another question when you weld 6010 do you whip it?

​@@makingmistakeswithgreg4:15 when you get some time would you be able to do me a favor because I don't have any 6010 as of right now to do the same experiment with a different technique. I may be wrong but I think that you whip the 6010 when you're welding. I also used to do that until I was showing another technique which creates a much better weld and it's doing small circles. Almost like some people do with 7018 and turn the amperage up a little bit along with pushing your weld. And then try doing the mineral spirits experiment again. And if you're not able to do it let me know I'll try it I'll have to order some 6010 offline maybe cuz it's kind of expensive at my local welding supply store in the small town I'm in

Depending on the brush it may say “if you could weld you wouldn’t need me”. I have sayings on all my brushes 😅. Everything from “that weld is straight trash” to “dont use on teeth”. My bench grinders also say things on them like “grinder and paint makes you the welder you aint” and “all you do is dip the tungsten” 😅😅

@@makingmistakeswithgreg I like the dip the tungsten one... lol

So here is my thoughts on that: If you look at code for baking water out of 7018, it requires a fair amount of time, at a pretty high temp. Stabilizing ovens (lower temp) can be used to keep rods indefinitely stabilized (ones that haven't been out of a sealed pack or rod oven for long) and "bake out" ovens are required to bake out all of the absorbed moisture on rods that have been out for over their exposure time. Bake out ovens are often over 400F depending on rod manufacture requirements. The problem is the "water" stored in a rod is not easily removed like wringing a towel out and putting it in a dryer. The hydrogen will absorb into the flux and if there is enough of it without a lengthy (30+ min) bakeout at high temp you might not remove all of the hydrogen. For the most part this is of little concern because mild steel most people weld on (with rods like 6013,7014, 6011, 6010) is unaffected by hydrogen in the weld. Its when you try to weld high strength steel with a wet 7018 (or a non low hydrogen rod) that problems pop up. So basically a slight preheat to a 7018 will likely help it run better, but it won't remove all of the hydrogen thats in it if the rod was improperly stored.

@@makingmistakeswithgreg And if you try to bake a rod that was stored too damp, the flux just falls off like powder. I've had to throw away boxes of rods before that someone gave me, or found left out in a barn at a farm, and was nothing left of the flux was all turned into junk.

I generally use esab 7018-prime because it comes in smaller more useful packs than most other rods. Even atom arc can’t sit out for days and meet code for low hydrogen. Most rods are 4 hours out of the sealed pack and they have to be put in a rod oven. Some with moisture resistant coatings can go 8-12 hours max, and that’s it. In the video I used a brand new esab 7018 (bottom plate), and a part of a cheap harbor freight rod that was sitting on the floor(side plate that wasn’t 6010). Neither one of them showed signs of escaping hydrogen, however only one of those rods met code for low hydrogen (the 7018 prime that was fresh out of the pack 😀)

@@makingmistakeswithgreg Esab makes a good product.