A Dialogue on the Argument from Mathematics w/ Physicist Alexey Burov

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ReasonableFaithOrg

ReasonableFaithOrg

Жыл бұрын

Ukrainian Chapter Director Mikhail Abakumov interviews Dr. Craig and Mathematical Physicist Alexey Burov on the applicability of the argument from mathematics.
Special thanks to Mikhail Abakumov for this interview.
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Пікірлер: 103
@matthewmortensen7792
@matthewmortensen7792 Жыл бұрын
Wonderful video Dr. Craig ❤
@adarshiyer4805
@adarshiyer4805 Жыл бұрын
This is an excellent video that truly showcases the importance of aesthetic considerations on questions of our own existence and metaphysical ontology.
@marlonfrometabarreto888
@marlonfrometabarreto888 Жыл бұрын
Great video!!!
@paulkelly1162
@paulkelly1162 9 ай бұрын
Wow! This may be the single most convincing piece of natural theology I've encountered.
@ultramarinechaplain88
@ultramarinechaplain88 Жыл бұрын
Dr alexei gives off the vibe of the smart scientist genius in hollywood movies who the american government is looling to recruit
@serginfl
@serginfl 9 ай бұрын
he is already recruited ;)
@justaguy328
@justaguy328 Жыл бұрын
You hear about great mathematicians that "create" new fields of mathematics like calculus or trigonometry, when they actually discovered them. We can discover, but think about how mind blowingly awe-inspiring it is to think of the one who actually created mathematics in its entirety. That is just so crazy! God is so good!
@matthewmortensen7792
@matthewmortensen7792 Жыл бұрын
All glory to God forever and ever, amen 🙏
@therick363
@therick363 Жыл бұрын
It is still a debate if we created or discovered maths
@leandrormor
@leandrormor Жыл бұрын
Thanks for Sharing Dr. Craig, it's a hard dialogue to grasp though
@ricksonora6656
@ricksonora6656 Жыл бұрын
People with thick accents need to speak slowly. Except when Dr Craig spoke, this was a waste of time for me.
@danieltemelkovski9828
@danieltemelkovski9828 Жыл бұрын
@@ricksonora6656 Not only that, he needed to be more concise. He ranged over too much disparate (to me) material and far too quickly for me to be able to follow his argument. Perhaps he misjudged the familiarity his audience would have with the topics he was discussing.
@tommackling
@tommackling Жыл бұрын
Temporarily stopping around 11 minutes into the video, I think Dr. Craig's summary argument "If God does not exist, then mathematical effectiveness is just a happy coincidence. Mathematical effectiveness can not be just a happy coincidence, and therefore God exists", might be (essentially) alternatively stated as follows: "God is the meaningfulness of reality, and therefore if God does not exist, reality is meaningless. The effectivemess of mathematics demonstrates that reality can not be meaningless, and therefore God exists." I mean these "God exists arguments" really rest on what one might possibly mean by "God", and, well I think it is possible to conceive of "God" in such a way that the existence of thought which encompasses and yet extends far beyond one's own thoughts, immediately implies the existence of God, - that God can essentially be regarded as the all encompassing (or all envelopping) consciousness which exists.
@danieltemelkovski9828
@danieltemelkovski9828 Жыл бұрын
@@tommackling I think your use of the word 'meaningless' is a bit ambiguous here. On a purely naturalistic/materialist (ie godless) account of existence, we would presumably still ascribe meanings to various things, but the main function they would serve is to keep us alive; the meanings themselves wouldn't have any necessary relation to reality at all, or at least we could have no assurance that they bear any relation to reality. Donald Hoffman's recent work, if I have understood it correctly, claims it is overwhelmingly likely that evolutionary processes would have selected for minds that distort or misapprehend reality to the point that any conclusions - including scientific ones - we draw about reality are completely illusory. That is a very strong claim, but in his telling it is grounded on empirical findings (which I have not looked into).
@tommackling
@tommackling Жыл бұрын
Now 58 minutes in, I can of course now appreciate that these gentlemen are evidently much more specifically interested in compelling evidence that our universe was created by an intelligent designer, and in a creator God, than simply in being able to understand why they are necessarily emersed within God themselves... and it seems they want to be able to admire God through an admiration of what they believe must be His creation, and thus seek, perhaps, a kind of grander theology, or conception of God, than the one I had earlier suggested. Whatever, I'm not saying anything very significant here, I think, but just wanted to say that yeah, I do realize that they seem to be interested in a rather more specific conceptual hypothesis, (that of a creator God) than I had initially appreciated, and um, I'm writing this now just to say, yeah, ok, I do now realize this (and no, I am not entirely obtuse). I also found Alexey's presentation to be interesting and impressive. I enjoyed watching this presentation and dialog. Thanks
@ricksonora6656
@ricksonora6656 Жыл бұрын
I understood little of what Dr Burov said. I wish people with thick accents would slow down. Playing the video at reduced speed didn’t help. I think Dr Burov comes close to a systems design approach. That would identify requirements implied by the anthropic principle and verifying whether life and the universe fulfill the requirements. It is a robust argument because the requirements (and their fulfillment) branch into every discipline of science. Together, they correlate to creation having a designed purpose, and therefore, creation having a Creator possessing unimaginable intelligence, power, and, I would add, craftsmanship. If that’s what he’s saying, the cumulative argument is more robust that any other argument by itself. As I understand, biologists have begun benefiting from a systems design approach to organisms. It has potential for understanding the creation and for supporting theism, as well.
@v216
@v216 Жыл бұрын
You can turn on the Subtitles/closed captions. They are not 100% accurate but close.
@thecloudtherapist
@thecloudtherapist Жыл бұрын
I find your first paragraph utterly prejudicial. The man is speaking as best a second language as he can. What do you think he would say, if he heard you try speaking his language in your accent? Oh, yes, I forgot, you can't even speak it! I wouldn't be surprised if you are from the US - you are so insular when it comes to accents - I typically hear this all the time and unfortunately, even WLC has stated this in the past, when he's done Q&A with audience,. ALL your programming is American!! And you have adopted, twisted and destroyed a perfectly good language!
@John777Revelation
@John777Revelation Жыл бұрын
Modern Quantum Physics has shown that reality is based on probability: ​ A statistical impossibility is defined as “a probability that is so low as to not be worthy of mentioning. Sometimes it is quoted as 1/10^50 although the cutoff is inherently arbitrary. Although not truly impossible the probability is low enough so as to not bear mention in a Rational, Reasonable argument." The probability of finding one particular atom out of all of the atoms in the universe has been estimated to be 1/10^80. The probability of just one (1) functional 150 amino acid protein chain forming by chance is 1/10^164. It has been calculated that the probability of DNA forming by chance is 1/10^119,000. The probability of random chance protein-protein linkages in a cell is 1/10^79,000,000,000. Based on just these three cellular components, it would be far more Rational and Reasonable to conclude that the cell was not formed by un-directed random natural processes. Note: Abiogenesis Hypothesis posits that un-directed random natural processes, i.e. random chance formation, of molecules led to living organisms. Natural selection has no effect on individual atoms and molecules on the micro scale in a prebiotic environment. (*For reference, peptides/proteins can vary in size from 3 amino acid chains to 34,000 amino acid chains. Some scientists consider 300-400 amino acid protein chains to be the average size. There are 42,000,000 protein molecules in just one (1) simple cell, each protein requiring precise assembly. There are approx. 30,000,000,000,000 cells in the human body.) Of all the physical laws and constants, just the Cosmological Constant alone is tuned to a level of 1/10^120; not to mention the fine-tuning of the Mass-Energy distribution of early universe which is 1/10^10^123. Therefore, in the fine-tuning argument, it would be more Rational and Reasonable to conclude that the multi-verse is not the correct answer. On the other hand, it has been scientifically proven numerous times that Consciousness does indeed collapse the wave function to cause information waves of probability/potentiality to become particle/matter with 1/1 probability. A rational and reasonable person could therefore conclude that the answer is consciousness. A "Miracle" is considered to be an event with a probability of occurrence of 1/10^6. Abiogenesis, RNA World Hypothesis, and Multiverse would all far, far, far exceed any "Miracle". Yet, these extremely irrational and unreasonable hypotheses are what some of the world’s top scientists ‘must’ believe in because of a prior commitment to a strictly arbitrary, subjective, biased, narrow, limiting, materialistic ideology / worldview. Every idea, number, concept, thought, theory, mathematical equation, abstraction, qualia, etc. existing within and expressed by anyone is "Immaterial" or "Non-material". The very idea or concept of "Materialism" is an immaterial entity and by it's own definition does not exist. Modern science seems to be stuck in archaic, subjective, biased, incomplete ideologies that have inadequately attempted to define the "nature of reality" or the "reality of nature" for millennia. A Paradigm Shift in ‘Science’ is needed for humanity to advance. A major part of this Science Paradigm Shift would be the formal acknowledgment by the scientific community of the existence of "Immaterial" or "Non-material" entities as verified and confirmed by observation of the universe and discoveries in Quantum Physics.)
@ricksonora6656
@ricksonora6656 Жыл бұрын
My initial reaction: Mathematics is a human language used to describe the natural world. It should not be surprising when mathematical equations describe real-world behaviors, since they are massaged until they do so. It might be surprising that natural behaviors happen consistently or happen congruently with each other. And it might be surprising that man can invent a language to describe natural behaviors. But that would say as much about man as about nature and math. I’ll have to listen to the 7-point and 3-point explanations again, perhaps several times, to make sure I understand them.
@navienslavement
@navienslavement Жыл бұрын
Cringe take. Learn calculus.
@chrispaige8880
@chrispaige8880 Жыл бұрын
Respectfully, I think you're missing the point of the argument: there's utterly no reason that we should have evolved the ability to invent something that predicts the natural world so well. After all, everything about us is supposed to be the result of selection, meaning it somehow allowed us to get food or get babies (to oversimplify). How did this ability help us get food or babies? Do math whizzes get all the girls in your school? Do they get all the food? If we didn't waste calories on math/didn't waste space on those abilities, wouldn't we have been BETTER off? Wouldn't we have beaten our math peers? Especially as we evolved in ancient past, where math was super useless.
@cheemsburmger6289
@cheemsburmger6289 Жыл бұрын
@@chrispaige8880 have you heard of the idea of memetic selection?
@ricksonora6656
@ricksonora6656 Жыл бұрын
@@navienslavement My degree in engineering and career in aerospace used quite a bit of math, but I guess I’m not smart enough to tease out an explanation of your comment. Maybe you could condescend to help out a dummy like me by clarifying your point.
@ricksonora6656
@ricksonora6656 Жыл бұрын
@@chrispaige8880 I think our intelligence is a product of God’s design, but I can also argue from an evolutionary perspective. Living in collectives increases ability to get food. Math supports collective life. For example, to pick an apple for each family member, one must be able to count the members and then the apples. The complexity needed for the math increases with size of the collective. Math nerds may not get the girls in school, but possessions resulting from business success certainly attract them in adult life. A second factor is that what comes into being for one purpose can serve other purposes, such as the proverbial hammer to which everything looks like a nail. Surely, the intelligence that could invent a branch of math could also find ways to advance it or to apply a previously invented branch in new ways. Like biblical theology, technology is built “line upon line, precept upon precept.” But I don’t see the relevance of origin of math ability to the correlation of math to physical behaviors being “surprising.”
@emmanuelbeaucage4461
@emmanuelbeaucage4461 Жыл бұрын
we created mathematics as part of our tools to describe the world... so of course it's effective at describing the world....
@junacebedo888
@junacebedo888 Жыл бұрын
One must BELIEVE in Arithmetic so without faith math is useless. Faith is a gift of God
@chrispaige8880
@chrispaige8880 Жыл бұрын
Again, you're missing the point: why did we evolve the capacity to describe the world accurately? Thinking is very calorie intensive, so someone who didn't waste time thinking about useless things would outcompete those who did. Sorry, describing the universe accurately doesn't make babies or get food, so it's not worth the calories. Heck you couldn't make a living off math until pretty recently in human history, so it doesn't work.
@junacebedo888
@junacebedo888 Жыл бұрын
@@chrispaige8880 No universe no you
@chrispaige8880
@chrispaige8880 Жыл бұрын
@@junacebedo888 Can you clarify your point? Thanks!
@therick363
@therick363 Жыл бұрын
@@junacebedo888 you don’t need to BELIEVE in arithmetic-we can see it works and happens.
@emmanuelbeaucage4461
@emmanuelbeaucage4461 Жыл бұрын
well... i did get to 11min...
@chrispaige8880
@chrispaige8880 Жыл бұрын
Atheism suffers from a simple fallacy: they look at skills/traits that are useful today & assume that those skills/traits would have been useful in the past because how else to explain that we have those skills/traits? But it doesn't work that way. If you want to claim that we developed the ability for math or the ability to make music etc., you have to explain how that ability would have been useful 100k years ago while we were evolving. Look, thinking burns calories, lots of them. Calories are hard to come by. Thus, people who don't think tend to outcompete people who do. How would a penchant for advanced mathematics get our ancestors laid? How would it get them more food? Tell me that or you're not really responding to the argument at all. The argument from math is that we humans have lots of skills/traits that only make sense if our CREATOR wanted us to have those skills/traits in order to know Him. From an evolutionary perspective, they'd be losers. Persuade me differently but wouldn't you rather spend your calories on, say, getting stronger or having better eyesight? Wouldn't those traits have been more useful to our ancestors than the ability to compose music or do math? Honestly, with whom would you prefer to be stuck in the wilderness - Einstein or the Rock? What skills would really keep you alive? Einstein wouldn't just be useless in the wilderness; he's be a liability - esp. compared to a great athlete like the Rock. My problem w/ atheists is that they're always telling me about evolution, but ignoring the implications of their own theory. If evolution is real, there are no genetic gays or genetic trans people (as those genes would be bred out). There's no math or musicians etc because they'd lose out to other skills that would better use the same calories. The best attack on atheism, therefore, is really the indirect proof - the implications of the theory are wrong, so the theory is wrong.
@therick363
@therick363 Жыл бұрын
Wow where to even begin. Atheism-not believing any gods exist. That’s it. That’s all it says or does. Our maths work because we have created it to help describe what we see. If it didn’t work we wouldn’t use it. Also, who is saying math was used to get laid? The problem with throats is they want to misrepresent things they don’t like or can’t understand and think it’s okay. _if evolution is real_ It is real. That’s why it’s a theory.
@johnrussell4788
@johnrussell4788 Жыл бұрын
Completely childish. mathematics, like religion, ls a human invention.
@navienslavement
@navienslavement Жыл бұрын
Cringe
@Glockenstein0869
@Glockenstein0869 Жыл бұрын
@johnnyRussell So what you are saying is that you believe in God.Correct? Since the physical world did not come from nothing, then there are only 2 options; either numbers or from an intelligent designer. Since you reject religion and mathematics, then you agree that there is an intelligent designer. Awesome! So you believe in God, you just happen to reject religion. Jesus loves you!
@danielltorres5895
@danielltorres5895 Жыл бұрын
average 2015 athiest
@combatcurtful
@combatcurtful Жыл бұрын
You need Jesus to save your life.
@nikokapanen82
@nikokapanen82 Жыл бұрын
How is mathematics a human invention? Do you really think that if there would be another alien civilization living somewhere in our galaxy they would invent that 2+2=7? Of course not! What foolishness is that? They too would DISCOVER that 2+2=4 So mathematics is ingrained into the fabric of reality itself. Yet how can this be? mathematics makes sense only to the intelligent mind.
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