"It seems nobody competent is leading the Uruk-Hai army!" Well, to be fair, your Imperial Majesty, they were born _practically yesterday!_

In fairness to Theoden, in the book he sends the civilians to Helm's Deep and plans to meet the Urukhai on the field but most of his army is scattered by the Urukhai at the Ford's of Isen, and he is forced to divert to Helm's Deep with the survivors he can gather.

The pikes make sense when you consider that they were expecting cavalry, as they were facing a culture that had a large mounted contingent.

Speaking as an archer here: you seem to put too much emphasis on volley-shooting for effectiveness, both in the defense and attack on Helm's Deep and the Gondorians at Osgiliath. Films draw heavily on a modern concept of volley shooting - specifically, the massed volleys from gunpowder line infantry. That sort of synchronised volley shooting is possible with muskets because the troops are trained to load and fire by the numbers, and the impact of a massed volley can break an enemy unit. Massed, synchronised volleys are not good at suppression because there are large gaps between volleys. Additionally, because archers are _not_ trained to shoot by tempo, it's far more difficult to get an archer unit to shoot together in one volley. Nor would a volley of arrows have the same impact as a volley of musket balls. Most of the arrows will miss, those that hit will be mitigated by armour and shields, and you don't get the crumpling wall of dead bodies that will smash a formation. We have little evidence of synchronised volleys being used in battle. Sources that use the term "volley" don't refer to synchronised shooting, and at best we have sources that describe something that might signal the beginning of shooting (in which the archers would likely all shoot together), but nothing that suggest that archers deliberately timed their shots to be synchronised. The true effect of massed archers is in _constant_ shooting. Descriptions of battles involving large numbers of archers (such as Agincourt) portray arrows as a "rain" or "storm". This description is more accurate if archers are all shooting at their own pace, naturally staggered as each man picks his own mark, draws and shoots as his condition allows him to. Not a wall of arrows every 10 seconds. The constant whizzing of arrows from continuous shooting will literally push the enemy formation back form the impact of the arrows. Volley shooting is a video game mechanic, not a real life one. The skirmish at Osgiliath would be a proper depiction of a small-unit battle - the Gondorians are scattered in defensive positions, there is no packed formation of archers that can coordinate their shooting, and they are not shooting at a massed unit on the other side of the river. Each archer is identifying their own target and shooting at their own pace. I don't see anything wrong with this scene from an archer's perspective. This is probably the best deployment of archers in this context, and would have more effective for suppression than volley shooting as a unit, since the targets would not know when and where the arrows will come. Likewise, the Uruk-hai don't need _volleys_ of crossbows to suppress the walls. They need _continuous_ missiles sweeping the walls. Volleys are _less_ effective at suppression because you have to slow down the rate of shooting so that men are loaded, which gives a bigger gap for the defenders to shoot back. I wouldn't call the long holds a military command blunder. That's just movies being dumb about how bows work. What _is_ a command blunder is Aragorn ordering a volley to be shot into the breach *while he is standing front of the archers.* That's a good way to get a dozen arrows in the back. That said, there's probably good reason for Aragorn to call a charge into the breach. Remember that only a small contingent of Elves at in this battle (and in book canon, there are none), they have already been loosing arrows from the wall, and Aragorn would probably not be confident that they had enough ammunition to continue suppressing the breach (in the book, Legolas - the only Elf at Helm's Deep - does in fact run out of arrows and fights with his long knives in this stage of the battle). In a page taken from Agincourt, the archers would have joined the melee to turn the tide.

In the books, Gandalf is the one who suggests they go to Helm's Deep. The movies do a disservice to Theoden's character. He comes off as a bit arrogant and petty, which he absolutely is not in the books. The Urakai aren't there to raid Rohan, they're there to exterminate them. They will attack Helm's Deep because that's where the people are. The idea is to weaken the orcs and then defeat them, which they would not be able to do if they immediately attacked them in open battle, which already happened btw, the battle of Isen Ford where Theoden's son died.

Don't forget that these Uruk-hai were literally born within the last couple of weeks, and only armed within the last two. It is unreasonable to expect that they would have developed the ability to work in concert as experienced units might in that time. Frankly, it is a testament to Saruman's ability as a geneticist that they are able to use their equipment effectively at all, presumably acting mostly on the basis of instinct and ingrained magical programming. It is Saruman's fault that they were ordered to advance before having the chance to accumulate experience working in concert, and thus their failure to do so is a reflection on him and not them.

I know you said you wouldn't evaluate the motivations of the characters. However, I can say the reckless assault with no long-term plan does seem to justify Theoden's idea of sheltering while the orcs pillage. If he's expecting the orcs to turn on each other and the army discipline to break down and infighting to proceed within days, it makes sense. The army would literally start eating itself if they could just last a week

At 26:26 you say that the wizards magic is what blinds the Uruk-Kai but it isnt. Its the sun rising behind the riders. During the previous scenes we can even see the light of the sun shining lower and lower into the valley until it reaches the first line of spearmen just before the riders crash into them. Which I would count as a tactical wise decision as Gandalf did plan to arrive at dawn from the beginning.

No fire arrows. Let that sink it. No Fire arrows This is why it is a masterpiece.

As far as the pikes go, I think Saruman thought his army would fight whatever was left of the Rohan army which is mostly calvary out in the open field. When fighting calvary the pikes would be a lot better. The retreat into Helm’s Deep was a very late development that Saruman had to put together a bomb himself to try and get past the defenses. Saruman had Theodin under mind control, he could have been planning to have the Rohirrum army go into a trap with an army perfectly matched to counter them. But now the army has to put together a very quick plan to siege the fortress.

Don't sell horses short, they're REALLY mean in mounted combat. Horses would also maneuver differently, and pouncing would leave the individual warg/rider vulnerable. It's not as cut and dried, but the point of the different mount capabilities is valid, and a factor that's not delved into. Some of the things like the archers' long draw time are for cinematic dramatics, and don't work in real life, but work in movies to build tension. I would also argue that the Uruk Hai are very much an expendable/we have reserves army with a heedless commander in Saruman. And yeah, with all this silly parts, it's REALLY good.

About the bows, I think a rather good explanation for the early draw is available. Aragorn is commanding their forces. However, Aragorn is used to fighting with Elves especially. Creatures with supernatural grace and stamina. In the Lord of the Rings books and movies elves really are never shown suffering from weather or things like muscle stress. They seem to be able to hold their bows back as if the drain on their stamina is trivial. They do so twice in the movies and once more in the books. Even though Aragorn is human, he is a different breed of human. A Dúnedain, a kind of people who intentionally breed themselves to have lives and powers more similar to that of elves. He simply might not fully comprehend the limits of his fellow more base humans.

Happy to be commenting this sort of content. Regarding the skirmish between the mounted troops: you made the point that the wargs are the most dangerous mount and yet they won the encounter (though barely). Conclusion: the Rohirrim are the most dangerous riders (and rider>mount). Also, Battle for Middle Earth 1 was an awesome game.

I believe movies do this stupid "hold" maneuver for two reasons. 1: Dramatic effect 2: Because they think of a bow like a gun and don't think about the actual effort required in using one.

About the uruk-hai. In the films they remarked on their incredible stamina. Also since they eat humans, marching them near starving to a fortress full of basically food. Would be a good way to ensure they try their hardest to get in.

Our lord and saviour, hos most imperial majesty the KingEmperorPenguin has returned!

in defense of the orcs attacking during the rain it is probably advantageous for them to force the defenders out into the miserable rainy night so that the defenders have to suffer with them.(those pikes are crap for the siege but the were probably great for defending against cavalry while they were marching through the open plains)

27:10 The book actually depicts how Saruman had stored some secretive vats or furnaces that could erupt on his command. Basically, he had stored away fire-mines that would definitely burn wood very quickly, even that of an Ent.

Outside LoTR Trilogy, the only cinematic siege that´s seams cool enough and stays in my head is the Siege of Jerusalem in Kingdom of Heaven (2005).

This and the siege of minis tirith are my favorite parts of the films. I love them so much and I can’t wait for the next video.

Minor nitpick, the Uruk Hai carrying pikes makes perfect sense through a country known for its cavalry. Since they don't have a camp set up, what are they going to do with those pikes once you get to Helms Deep? You're gonna hold onto it till you have to go up the ladder!

In terms of rallying all of your Lords to fight again it's one of those things where it turns out that Isengard has Cavalry but is no match for yours and you have a nation of horse Lords that love horses like their own kin, so well it would take time to rally the men at the same time the fact that Theoden desn't even attempt this in the two towers but then does so in return of the King is definitely a problem. It's especially bad when you look at how Rohan basically has a minutemen style warrior society where there are always hundreds of riders ready to ride at a moment's notice to fight. You could argue that they need to defend their own lands which is a fair argument but the fact that he doesn't even try this is sad and basically only there to build drama. It does have the side effect of making him look stupid.

Okay, the thumbnail got me.

Great video! I'll defend the film's logic as best I can because I love it too much so max copium ahead: Theoden's decision to go to Helm's Deep is a sound one, as it seems like Isengard is already prepped for war while Rohan hasn't even begun to marshal its forces, save for Eomer. It also forces the Uruk-Hai to expend their superior numbers attacking a fortified position, one that is at the end of a narrow valley no less. Its position makes it a death trap for the attackers should any relief force arrive. Indeed in the books going to Helm's Deep is Gandalf's idea for this very reason. Theoden's only mistake is not sending out riders to marshal his own relief force while he hid, as he was able to assemble 6000 riders in the next film at relative speed. Assuming the enemy would raid and then leave might be sound if the enemy came all the way from Mordor, but Isengard is so close that they're not going to go away any time soon. The Dunlendings are absolutely going to settle the lands because they used to live there. But Theoden only says these things to bolster his men's morale. Sending riders to Gondor would be a waste of time because Gondor if anything is expecting Rohirrim relief armies, not the other way around. Even if they could send a large army to exterminate Isengard it would take far too long to assemble and get there. Aragorn's been smoking too much longbottom leaf if he's even suggesting this. The elves are from Lothlorien which is actually quite close to Rohan. Positioning them separately from the men avoids confusion between their commanders, and the elves are essentially on a suicide mission so they take the more vulnerable spot. I believe the Uruk-Hai attacking immediately is also in the books. They don't seem to want to wait and rest and are trying to speedrun the seige. Perhaps they are aware of how delicate their position is and how undersupplied they are. It is worth noting that Saruman cut many corners to assemble his army as quickly as he did, and that Sauron's army in the next one (at least in the books) planned their advance, encampment, strategies, and logistics much better. Additionally in the book Saruman believes there is a decent chance the One Ring is in Theoden's hands so he's in a rush to try and take it. But in the film he doesn't seem to dwell too much on losing Merry and Pippin so make of that what you will. The Uruk-Hai assumedly brought so many pikes in the event that the Rohirrim met them in the open field, where they could be used against cavalry. However in the siege there shouldn't be any pikemen anywhere close to the walls where they can't participate. They should be closer to the back in case a relief force arrives. The only time the pikes would be useful is potentially in fighting over the gatehouse, where a phalanx could push the clustered defenders back and allow space for the attackers to enter relatively uncontested. But wouldn't you know it this does not occur. Aragorn commanded his troops to charge to try to contain the breach in the walls. He only seems to take half his force with him, but we don't see any volleys from the remaining half. It should be noted that the stairs leading up to the fortress are close to the walls, so if the Uruk-Hai are allowed in even under repeated volleys the defenders wouldn't be able to escape. The main criticism is Aragorn absolutely should've ordered a general retreat at once; Theoden shouldn't have had to tell him to do so. Aragorn and Gilmi's heroics at the causeway are sound as such a narrow space permits them to fight so many. However Theoden allows them no means of escape. Additionally the repairs he makes to the door basically do nothing, as he gives up the gatehouse right after they are made. If an arrow can break the super-siege ladders then assumedly a sword swipe to the ropes on the hooks should also do the trick. The design seems deeply flawed but if they made Theoden abandon the gatehouse then I suppose they did their job. In the books the horn is terribly loud and disrupts the enemy for the charge to take place. It doesn't seem to bother the enemy much in the film so it's surprising the charge works at all. Not even one shot of the Uruks covering their ears? Lastly although the enemy is scattered by Eomer's riders the Hornburg itself (unsuitable for cavalry) is still filled to the brim with Uruk-Hai so it seems like clearing all of them out would be a very long and bloody task, unless they surrendered or something. Maybe they bartered passage in exchange for not butchering all the women and children still in the fortress that they had control over :) As for flaws in the design of the Hornburg, eh it's a terribly old fort so it's fine.

In defense of the Osgiliath scene at 26:44 is is clear that the city is not just some field or regular siege like Helms Deep and is more akin to urban warfare, due to how you can see arrows whizz past the screen the Gondorians are also being shot back at so perhaps taking cover is more favourable to fighting in formations and doing volleys?

The bright light shining on the Uruk-Hai is not magic, it's the rising SUN. Gandalf said to look for his coming at dawn. The sun is rising over the ridgeline and Gandalf times his charge to take advantage of that moment. As he once said, "a wizard always arrives PRECISELY when he means to". He apparently meant that one quite literally.

The Uruk-Hai having pikes would have been a very fair move by Saruman. Rohan was known for its horsemen and as Gandalf was with them, he would have almost certainly expected for them to attack his forces before they reached the Deeping.

I think a lot of the flaws in the Rohirrum's strategies have to do with the fact they're mostly a cavalry based military, and the Uruk-hai are rather young and inexperienced with logistics (who hasn't taken control of a large army in a videogame just to find out how important and difficult logi is?) and as wise and old as Saruman is I don't think he's every lead whole massive armies before and I also don't think he values the lives of orcs.

welcome back! Unfortunately the audio is extremely low on this video and out of balance, I had to adjust ~30% to the right for the first 5 minutes of the video before it equalizes itself and gets louder. I would suppose that the uruks have pikes because the army wasn't made to take helms deep it was made to fight rohan, which has a lot of cavalrymen, so the pikes would be very useful on the march there. I'd suppose the better way to show that would be to have a giant pile of pikes behind the Uruk army as they drop them just before starting the assault.

Three things: one the pikemen we're there to defend against the Rohan Cavalry. Which we see later when Gandalf charges down the hill, however, they are blinded by the sun light. You are right about the horde needing formations to properly operate this battle, to my knowledge this is the first time they have seen battle. Second the Urikah around the ballistas seem to be there for security, and if I'm not mistaken they probably helped puch the artillery into place. Especially since we see no draft animals, for food, transportation, or medical. Third it seems that they were planning to eat the dead defenders, and their own fallen comrades. Also I think you did a very good job with this video, keep it up.

Maybe so many of the Uruk'Kai were armed with long pikes because they were expecting to face off against mostly men on lightly armored horses during their long march. So, the columns of Uruk'kai presented a formidable and costly obsticle to hit and run tactics. Just a guess.

This is going to be directed more at the none book readers. Going to Helms Deep was the only viable option for Théoden King. In open battle he is heavily outnumbered against an enemy that was tailored equipped to fight a Calvary heavy army, A enemy army The three hunters and Gandalf have seen and got knowledge of be it through observation or battling forces from it. The Uruk-Hai are bred for a single a purpose of destroying the people of Rohan in one sweep, in open field or in Edoras the Rohan forces had no chance, Gandalf would know their desire and purpose since he Knew Saruman and well he can read him now like a book as Gandalf the White. (In the book a fact Aragorn and Gandalf heavily point out to Théoden, who wanted a Pitch battle at the Fords of Isen be it this was due to lack of intelligence about the situation than Ego or stupidity, once realising the situation he knew it was time to hold up in The Hornburg). Only The Hornburg had the strength and position to provide the needed barriers to make a stand even possible and it had it's own sizeable garrison to boot as well, the civilians were also left in Edoras as well, only civilians at Helms deep in the book were refugees from the Westfold who fled there before Théoden's arrival. Normally Your would be correct of course about the hiding strategy being just a delay at best, but in this scenario it's the rare exception where the Enemy will come for you even in your castle, since their leader does not want the land or pillage, but annihilation of your people, dynasty and your military first before taking the land as the prize. We must take into factor in this scenario that Sauron wants Rohan eliminated so they can't aid Gondor, and his underling (Movie only) Saruman will focus on that as commanded. Gandalf knows this being well Gandalf and warns Théoden so of this along with Aragorn. Théoden telling his people they will pillage and Burn is more for morale than anything else, if he told them they're doomed because of 10,000 Uruk-Hai are coming his people would panic and come to battle more scared with the idea their own King thinks they will not win. Aragorn and Legolas should also have never had their conversation among those worried, scared men and children, it is quite an out of character action really for either of them to perform likely a minor slip up of the writers for tension in the film. Why the Uruk-Hai attack in the rain at night? Well discipline, planning and generally self control ain't traits I would apply to them. they're blood lusted, very obedient order followers, and likely wanted to fight as soon as they arrived. A very typical Orc/Uruk behaviour backed by by the previous film and this one. (In the books the Uruks/Orcs and dunlanders were smarter in their choice of battle and tactics, and it was not raining either If I recall). And this Isenguard army unlike the Mordor armies lacks human soldiers, Orc officers and the Nazgul to keep the troops in line and obey advanced orders. We must remember Saruman made this army fast, and while they got fancy equipment, they're are poorly trained and rely on pure strength and savagery than actual tactics or training to win their fights. This movie showed how Orcs fight well a proper commander or command system in place, a mass of chaos who know their job but their is no overall thinking or coordination, and we can see these issues are not so present in Mordor's army though. It shows off that cannon fodder mindset use of Orcs. quite well. For the people out there wondering why the light had such an effect on the Uruk-Hai spear wall; It's because Orcs (Uruk-Hai are still orcs but just bigger and more resistant to the sun) have a ingrained hatred of the Sun and it stings them and is uncomfortable for them to be in due to well events involving the higher beings of this universe. Uruk-Hai are resilient to this but when it's focused by a powerful being like Gandalf their immunity crumbles too it. Of course a lot of these issues are not present in the Books and the war planning is more deeper and better thought of on both sides in the books.

Rain makes bows less effective, which hurts the humans and elves more than the orcs.

About the food problem with the Uruk-Hai army, I do believe earlier in the film there was a line "Looks like meat's back on the menu boys!" said who I think was an Uruk-Hai, before they all started to cannibalize on each other.

Love you going back to your roots, man!

You’re one of my favorites KEP. Keep up the good work.

Loved this! Good job!

Excellent video your majesty, glad to see these videos!

I love these analysis videos!

The Uruks being otherwise poor military strategists is perfectly explainable by the fact that they’ve literally been alive for a couple months at most. They’ve pretty much only been taught to have been fighters, and for not long at that, and the formations they do pull off like tortoises and pike blocks make sense because they’re relatively simple. The Uruks bringing their pikes makes sense to me because they literally diverted to Helm’s Deep, they were expecting an open battle so they kept their pikes. The fact there are so many pikes and troops, means that realistically, there wasn’t much Theoden could do. Its either go on the battlefield and die, or hole up inside an extremely defensible position. A third option however is to basically gather all his forces made up of light or heavy cavalry, flee into the hills, and launch constant, incessant hit and run attacks on the Isengard forces made up entirely of infantry forces, and make heading into the countryside a terrifying experience for the conquering forces. But that would still lead to his country being conquered. Overall, it’s just bad options all around.

The extra troops standing around the ballista are there to pull the ropes and raise the main ladders.

I’ve been looking forward to this

Awesome, best content on youtube

to be fair about a few things -Theoden did order a watch on the surround and was focused on prepare the defenses. -Gondor was dealing with the attack on Osgiliath, and it doesnt help that they were under the rule of Denethor who is a whole 'nother can of worms -By fleeing to helms deep, Theoden was forcing the enemy to come to him, thereby dictating the terms of the battle, which gave them an advantage, if only small.

How does this not get more views? This was great entertainment!

Saruman the White's greatest weakness: Logistics.

It must be pointed out that Saruman being quite a long way around the bend from sane by that time is fairly well established. Military problems generally begin at the top and filter down, as in so many other areas of life.

Yes!!!! he's back

Yay, new content!!!

The battle of Helm's Deep took place during a rainy night for cinematic reasons. The darkness makes the orc army look more threatening. They are some what chaotically arranged to reinforce their villainy.

The loss of the ability to shoot projectiles in a downpour would hurt the defenders far more than the attackers. Also, I get the feeling that Huruk-ai don't get sick, so attacking in the rain would only hurt the humans, so even if the initial assault was repulsed, more humans would get sick and the siege could be concluded more quickly.

The Siege of Candia lasted just 21 years. Logistics is pretty important in sieges.

A New Video? Great! Hope you and everyone reading has a great Day!

Since orcs are not very selective when it comes to food, my guess is their provisions would have been replenished by the corpses of men and orcs slain in battle, aswell as any captured people. I could even imagine the orcs were kept hungry deliberately to make them more bloodthirsty (Uruks aren't human and are quite sturdy from what I remember, so they might not be affected in the same way by hunger as we are).

For the time of the attack: I would assume Saruman knew or at least thought that Gandalf wouldn't give up so easily and would fether the Rohirim, so if the Uruks would have waited for the next day to start, the chances would be good Rohan reinforcements are ready and there. In the movie we actually see that Gandalf arrives in the dawn, so imagine if we move the battle to after the night, then the wall of Helms Deep wouldn't even have breached before Gandalf arrives. Saruman wanted to defeat and conquer Helms Deep as fast as possible and had no time to lose

Some corrections: The dark rainy clouds come with the Orks, because they don't like the sunlight. The Uruk-hai have less problems with that (they can be in the sunlight at all without cowering in fear) but are still hindered by it, which is shown when the riders attack (they aren't only blinded by the light, they have a more visceral reaction to it, thus losing pretty much all effectiveness with the lances/pikes/halberds they use). That is a consistent thing with Tolkien (even though it is not explained here, but shown and sometimes talked about in the films). The siege went on for more than one day, you just can't see the passing of one day because of the dark clouds, Gandalf arrived at the first light of the FIFTH morning. The Rohirrim pretty much at no point in time use longbows. They are very clearly and pretty much always shown to use shorter rider bows (like what the Mongols, Huns or Hungarians used). Those are completely different to what an english longbow is. Actually only the Elves and Dunedain are shown to wield something that is a longbow, but that doesn't mean it must be an english one. The elves are shown to be able to hit the weak spots of the armour, for them it's simply a fact of knowing where to shoot, they will hit. That's why Legolas tells the other elves around him where to shoot, he has more experience with the Uruk-hai. And yes, Theodens decisions lack all the information that is given in the book and looks a lot more foolish in the films, but in the end was the right decision, because there is no way they would have defeated that Uruk-hai army in the open field.

I did give a critique on the volley fire but I dont want to make it sound like I disapproved of the whole video. It was one tiny point but I dont want it to get confused, I loved this video! As I do all of your videos and have agreed with probably all your other points in all your critiques. You clearly know what your talking about and always have the notifications on for this channel

well the strategy of hiding in Helm's deep would work if they had the time to do a scorch earth policy and get as much supplies in Helm's Deep. Even in the books it was a bit off that Rohan's main army weren't involved just those from Edoras and survivors of the Battle of the Ford, when it took less than a week for 10,000 soldiers to be mustered to Dunharrow. Yet only around 2 or 4 thousand were involved in the fight with Saruman. Movie made a little sense that Theoden being controlled would have prevented Rohan's army from mustering after his son was killed but even after he recovered didn't seem to want to rally his forces but took the city's civilians closer to where the orcs where instead of sending them to Eastward like he did in the book.

About foraging: There is a great account from the Russian-Polish wars in the 17th century, where a polish army of about 17.000 troops besieged Novgorod for almost 3 months, and a company of light polish cavalry was tasked with foraging to provide food for the army. During the second and third month, they foraged in areas as much as 200 miles away from Novgorod, but they actually did manage to keep the entire army fed.

i had no idea that ancient war horses or medieval war horse to trained to also kick, trample, and bite. Fascinating! Makes sense. I wonder if there is a standalone history video about ancient or medieval war horses talking about all that?

It's great they brought Boromir back to describe how bows work at 17:10

In fairness to Theoden, it is possible he sent out scouts but they didn't survive to return... or were incompetent. (Doubtful but possible). Maybe the wargs got em?

That titanic nod was great bravo!

For the sake of nerding out, I don't think attacking in the rain in this scenario is that big a deal for a few reasons, 1) if it hampers bowstrings then that works on the defenders too, who have an archers' advantage in position and skill (elves), 2) they would have no idea when the rain would stop, which could mean waiting for the ground to get worse before attacking (the rain didn't seem to last long at all anyway) 3) logistics aside (which just aren't mentioned, so maybe there's a baggage train in the back that wasn't included in a shot because it's not as visually scary as the army itself) it may be better to attack sooner if you think a relief army may come (which did in fact arrive), 4) the ground seems rocky and therefore not nearly as muddy to hamper siege equipment (the only wheeled equipment not just carried by hand anyway were a couple ballistas), 5) do Uruk-Hai GAF about getting sick? and wouldn't that apply to the defenders as well?

Just throwing it out there, a video breaking down the book's version of the battle would be very interesting. Especially as a contrast to the films version.

I am glad to see you back again this was another great video and analysis with good humor. On to the castle of Helm's Deep itself it has alot of design flaws and wasted defending potential as pointed by other KZfaqrs like Shadiversity and many others when you look it up. Helm's Deep's designs could have been alot better and made into a real efficient defending fortress then the too simple depiction design in the films. When it comes to tactics, strategies, and the circumstances surrounding military decisions of the war by the leaders I think JRR Tolkien had a higher level of extensive knowledge when it came to setting up the battles that would take center stage in his narrative. For instance there is alot more higher intelligent decisions made by Theoden and Saruman when it came to dividing and setting up forces and having external fortifications established. I still like the movie battle but book commanders make alot more reserve and strategic decisions and the reasoning circumstances surrounding them. Like the battle at the river and the external fortifications at Helm's Deep. If I may divert the topic of Helm's Deep to my analysis of Return of the King book's setting circumstances. The battle of Minas Tirith in films has a bit more set up but it's not as concrete as the book version of the siege. In the book seige Sauron's commanders actually make some pretty logical average decisions like securing the roads to Minas Tirith and sending smaller armies to garrison the flanks of the main seige and preventing immediate reinforcements and counter attacks to aid the city. Though I would say one problem Sauron doesn't do is that he didn't expand the front lines just a bit more due to how many reserves he really had. The seige alone is hinted that there were about almost a hundred thousand present on Sauron's side comprised of orcs, uruks, easternlings, harad, and maybe even some of his higher rank agents and servants like the Black Numenoreans were present managing the grand assembled host. The siege lasted three days and in my perspective I think this host may have been centralized into a single region just a bit too much. I would have adviced dividing forces a bit more and dragging the siege to paralyze the kingdom of Gondor and Rohan's ability to retaliate then just securing the flanks and roads. Don't get me wrong the strategic decisions made in the book are far superior then the movie's but pretty average tactics to a regular logistical military commander. There could have been more potential with the amount of resources Sauron's forces had compared to Gondor's at this time. The Corsair's raids on Gondor's ports were smart but their could have been more they could have been done to make it even more severe. Lore of the Rings did great presenting the battle tactics and describing the setting circumstances leading up to the battles themselves. Check him out he's very good. By the way 13:20 was very hilarious and true of what would likely take affect as a long term consequence.

The Wargs are also supported to be intelligent as well, making them even more dangerous

Volleys weren't used that way. There would be archers who couldn't shoot that fast and tired out and archers who could shoot faster but have to slow down for the rest of the unit. They were done in a fire at will type volley

Having the chance to watch the movie as it was meant to be due to the recent rerelease of the extended edition at the cinemas. It was so amazing, You get to appreciate details even a home cinema won't provide. Such soldiers nursing each other, orc movement on the other side of Osgiliath despite the distance, villagers on the daily lives, surviving Elves fighting alongside Rohhirim at the Hornburg or even orcs socialising during their free time while Frodo and Sam tried to enter the black gates......plus witnessing Balrog and Ganadlf's duel at the start of the movie on the big screen just hits different :) You don't really see it when they enter the fort but the elves send are supposed to be around 1000. You notice it more when they are spread out on the deeping wall and behind it. Of course in the books there never was Elvish help but the Rohan had an army of 2000 not 300+, with a re-enforce of 1000 more coming later.

The ents going WOOOOF when hit with fire arrows makes sense because the ents are old and covered in dry moss. Also that we only see this 1 or 2 times make sense, considering how difficult it is to make a fire arrow.

Best disclaimer ever!

this is my favorite battle thought the whole LOTR trilogy, I don't know why, probably because the battle of Helm's Deep is an epic siege battle

Obviously the video is based on the movies, but for sure after reading the books and experiencing the events on a more first-hand role thanks to Lord of the Rings Online it definitely felt strange some of the choices they made. Théoden DID rally his forces, but Eeomer and the forces of several other large houses were fighting on the western front and needed to be called back. You definitely get a better sense of scale of things as you progress deeper through the Riddermark, helping to fight a losing battle as each major house fails in protecting their own lands and must retreat to Edoras. The SCALE of Edoras is also, in my opinion, shamefully done in the movies after experiencing it differently. It looks like a small hilltop hovel compared to the large and open city with a massive Hall sitting at its hilltop.

Actually, in regards to the pikes, they have them for two reasons: they were expecting to fight cavalry on the way to Helm's Deep, and if you look closely in some scenes, they use the unique way the spearpoints are designed to actually assist in pushing the ladders upwards. However, beyond that, I do agree that the pikes would largely be useless up until the walls of the keep are breached.

I took the elves arriving when they did due to Elrond and Galadriel's fore-sight. Elrond informing Galadriel weeks or days in advance before the elven host showed up at Helmsdeep. Just my headcannon.

My take on the blowing up the wall while your own troops are there; orcs, even Uruk-Hai are fairly disposable; they receive only basic armour and training but are every effective against Men because they are practically wild animals with swords and armour; they make up for the lack of skill with brute strength and an element of psychological warfare, and the action of blowing up the wall is put of that same psychological tactic. The Uruk-Hai far outnumber the defenders so equal number of losses is a much smaller percentage of the overall force, but more importantly it's the message it sends; the Uruk-Hai will blow up it's own troops to breach the walls, and if they'll be that reckless with the lives of their own troops just to get inside the fortress, what will they do to the defenders and civilians inside... by killing a few hundred Uruk-Hai they can almost break the defenders morale (And we do see this as well). You also stoke the blood-lust of the Uruk-Hai; they see they have breached the wall, and so will be far more enthusiastic to get inside to fight, and quickly swarm the remaining defenders, which is probably where Orc armies are most effective.

Return of the King time!!!

Well, you didn't see them marching with siege equipment like the ladders, ballistae, bombs , casks of bolts, nor crossbows. Just what they were wearing, pikes and banners, so it's safe to assume there could've been some off screen supply wagon train at the rear.

Uruk hai are not men. They’re not even normal orcs. They’re superhuman. They’re extremely durable and strong, marching for days isn’t that difficult of a task for them. They were magically created after all

I like the rohan horses. They are strong enough to charge through hundreds of orcs without getting even slowed down, yet so fragile that a single hit by an arrow can kill them.

Actually uruk hai don't have to worry about casualties, just throw em in stew pot so they are ideal seige forces. The pikes were likely issued on the assumption the rohirrim would meet them on an open feild, which makes perfect sense.

Just a real life military note. The standard response to a *near* ambush is bum rush the enemy. You're already in the kill zone, you'll die trying to anything other than close with the enemy and try to kill them first

One assumption here that is erronus is that loses on the Ukuk side matter nearly as much as on the human side. Isengard committed as many troops to this one assault as the whole of Rohan was able to muster in Return of the King. Ork armies can replace troops at such a fast rate they afford to take disproportionate loses. This army only needs to win this battle. The next army can win the next one. This is basically what we see in Gondor wherein their forces are worn down over decades while the orcs just out breed them.

In fairness to the Orc commander, attacking immediately makes sense. To not do so risks more reinforcements coming to Theoden's aid, which in fact happens. The rain loosens bowstrings, which is a much greater problem for the defenders given their higher reliance on the bow for kills. The rain loosens soil, which makes undermining easier should they choose to do that. The rain limits collateral damage from fire-based weapons.

This was an excellent video! If you do a military analysis on Return of the King, I'll be back...

With all due respect your Imperial Majesty the Uruks bringing pikes actually makes sense given that the Rohirm are largely a cavalry based army.

Great Video, and I'll be sure to check out your Family books. The volume seems a little off though. The KZfaq ads nearly blew my ear drumbs! cheers

I think the reason so many Uruk-hai have pikes is because Saruman assumed he would be fighting a large amount of Rohirrim on an open battlefield, with pikes, in a phalanx formation, is usually a good counter to cavalry. After learning Theoden marched to Helms Deep for protection, Saruman must have thought that he could destroy Rohan in one battle. Also, with how quickly it took Saruman to build an army of 10,000 Uruks, he probably didn't care how many casualties it took to defeat Rohan since he probably didn't even see the Uruks as people, just tools to help him obtain the One Ring.

The Uruks are on a tight schedule; if they set up camp, build pavises, dig tunnels, that will use up precious time they don't have. They're likely aware that Rohhirrim companies like Eomer's could show up at any time. The assault has to happen now or never.

I do think that what had been done pretty well in this movie, militarily speaking, was the way Faramir and his Ithilien Rangers handled themselves during the ambush. They were sited to different spots of high ground which overlooked the pass that the Haradrim and their mumakil would have been forced to take to reach Mordor as part of the invasion of Gondor. They used their bows to inflict long-range damage against the Haradrim force, causing it to lose any cohesion and to stop it from making an effective response against their attack. Furthermore, Faramir and the rangers were able to panic a mumakil, sowing further confusion amongst the enemy host, which meant that their morale would be shattered and the Haradrim would be less inclined to fight for Sauron any further, which meant less men for Gondor to contend with during the climatic Gondor campaign.

The boys will throw rocks from the wall down onto the Uruk Hai. They are shown doing this in the film. In the ent attack on Isengard, the only ent that catches fire appears to be some sort of pine or fir which would have flammable sap. This catches fire first and is extinguished by the flood before much damage is inflicted upon the living wood.

"Hes acting like the captain of the Titanic" I had to chuckle a little cause it's the same actor.

To an extent, the Uruk Hai tactics were solid. I mean, when you come down to it, they were marching on a fortress manned by only 300 men. They invested in Pikes expecting the Rides of Rohan, and they were not trying to fight a long campaign in Rohan. The goal was extermination, not conquest. With the addition of the elven archers, and especially the flank of the Rohirrim with Gandalf, there were factors in the fight they could not have accounted for. As to rations.... they're cannibals. Their dead are the food. ("Meat's back on the menu, boys!" -The Two Towers)

While the ent did get lit aflame remarkably quickly, all it seemed to do was draw aggro. You can see he survived and extinguished himself later on in the battle. We may just be looking at a quirk of Ents. It's possible that Ent bark may be quite flammable, but the interior wood is not (being wet with sap) and it would take a very long time for a living and moving ent to actually burn to death.

Nice too see a self published author. You give me a LOT of hope for myself.

13:34 Elves move very quickly on foot. In Rings of Power (which Twitter reliably informs me is the most Tolkien thing ever), Celebrimbor walks from Eregion to Khazad-Dum and back in what seems like a leisurely afternoon stroll. Doesn't even bother to change out of his fancy clothes or bring a snack for the road. Now imagine what properly-equipped Elvish soldiers marching to battle at full speed could accomplish, it's no surprise they can show up at a moment's notice.

Helm's Deep is a badly designed fortress in the movie - 1: There is a culvert right in the middle of the wall. The wall is too low and is made worse by having no ditch immediately in front of it (which could be filled with water), 3: There is no inner defence behind the wall. 4:The ramp to the main tower gate is straight and of only moderate slope. 5: The gate in the tower is weakly built and quickly require ad hoc reinforcement after a few hits with the ram. 6: There is no provision for defending artillery.

The lack of logistics almost makes sense, Saruman might know nothing about how armies work as this is his first one. Previously he only had small raiding forces like the one led by Lurtz. As for other siege movies, it's obviously not nearly as good, but I enjoyed the siege at the end of Jack the Giantslayer and would be amused to hear your take.

The uruk are shown to be cannibals so they are actually marching with a lot of good and once the battle starts they will have food everywhere.

Watching the movie and then this AAR the uruks are actually very intelligent when you take into account that having your archers and other specialist spread throughout the army and hidden among the fodder ground troops provides excellent cover. Along with not having anyone special unit tight together and providing a juciy target for skilled elven archers.