As concise as possible. Is a 13 minute video. Classic Matt Easton

They should make a tournament where if you get killed you are disqualified from the tournament.

If quickly tapping an opponent with a foil or smallsword (like Arya does in the clip you mentioned) is scored equally to a solid cut from something like a saber or BHBS then we might as well call it lightsaber scoring, because (let's be honest) the only weapon you could be wielding that can move that quickly yet deal such damage with light taps is indeed a freaking lightsaber. We can make this work though and we can even still call it 'hee-muh'- we just make the acronym HEGMA (Historical Extra-Galactic Martial Arts) and tell everyone the 'G' is silent. There- I fixed it, problem solved! Seriously though, great video- I think anyone who is burdened with coming up with a scoring system that is intended to accurately reflect historical combat has an impossible task and is inevitably going to piss someone off and still encounter cases where the rules are being worked around or exploited (as other have mentioned).

We’ve been doing this for years. Thrust hits have a set point total. Cuts have a variable point total determined by blade profile, ie: point categories based on the width of the blade measured at half way between the cross and the point. .

What you are talking about is actually important. This take it's basis in game theory. For every set of rules, you find one (or a set of) optimal stable strategies (OSS) that end up winning more often than not. Now of course the question should be "how do we set up our rules in order that the OSS end being reflecting what we would like it to be", or in our case, historical combat. This is an important process to go through in order to have the game you really want.

I totally agree you. HEMA should be historicaly accurate

Really helpful. Articulate concerns I had that I wasn't able to put a finger on.

Thanks for the recent rapier videos

The question for HEMA rapier tournament is are we scorning the fight based on a duel? Is this duel to a touch, or first blood, or death? And while some rapiers are designed to cut, the styles are more point focused,and thrust based.. as I am sure you know,the evolution of rapier is thinner and lighter, and less cut based, as. More and more of the military sword are retired for more lighter dueling blades. So the heavier cutting blades were the military swords with more fashionable hilts on them. These in themselves are still “rapiers” but I believe they were not used for any of the more “dueling” styles we see in Fabris, or giangte. These swords, like the Sabre, were for military melee use, upgraded to be fashionable to wear.

Excellent and valid points as usual, it was a very interesting video to watch :)

@Scholagladiatoria Brilliant video & fantastic idea to encourage realism in competition. Thanks for all of your work. Btw, as a brand new practitioner, I would love for you to do a video comparing the differences between fencing styles such as saber, rapier, and small sword. Cheers!

Great clarification Matt! 👍

Been doing rapier since 2016 and helped marshal one tourney. So I'm not an expert in the matter, but here's my two cents. I like the idea of rapier blades dictating how much a cut should be worth. From helping with a tourney though, I can imagine that would bring up its own difficulties when keeping track of it. The rapier cut that bothers me isn't necessarily from light blades, but light cuts. I've done freeplay against some people from SCA and their cuts always seem to be at a 45 degree or less. Snap cuts from a rapier don't seem like they should count and can be frustrating to fight against. To put it in longsword terms, imagine an opponent hitting with their flat and insisting that it was a good cut. I'm not arguing that there needs to be force behind a cut to count in freeplay or tournaments, but there should at least be potential for a real cut happening. Whether that come from a rule dictating a minimum angle to hit or that there needs to by a scything action (which you can read about in Capo Ferro).

Great idea. Ive always thought that rapier tournaments turn into chaotic cutting brawls.

As soon as u write rules people exploit them

I totally agree with your assesment of the problem and your proposed solution. In fact, I thought of the same solution before you said you'd done that

Very interesting video Matt. To what extent do you think this could also apply to the use of (relatively) narrow and straight Victorian-style sabres in competition, as opposed to the broader and more curved styles of the Georgian era and earlier?

It would be nice to know what how did different pointing of cuts and thrusts affected your competition.

Thanks for sharing .

Your analysis of fast moving blades or slow moving ones and heavy blades or light ones vs. light and heavy/dense objects is spot on IMO, and explains a lot of what I had to intuit out manually every time with "X blade vs Y target." It's a good general rule/explanation. I think HEMA scoring could award points 1-5 for how good each weapon is at each task, rate each for it's cut and thrust damage etc. If a katana and tulwar are great cutters, they count for 4 points or 5 on a cut but only 3 on a thrust, while rapiers thrust for 5 points and cut for 2 etc.

Excellent point, thanks.

I know this is an older video but I find it exciting that the HEMA competition scene is going through the organization and standardisation phase other Martial Arts or combat sports like Olympic fencing Karate or Judo or BJJ are going through. At the end of the day it's about comparing the fencing skill and not about "who has more money to buy the better sword" . I am a life long athlete and Martial Artist and am excited to see what the future brings for this wonderful Martial Art

I absolutely agree with the mentioned point system (at 10:00).

We could add damage numbers to swords and health points to fencers: Rapier -2hp thrust -1hp cut (cup hilt -5hp on wearer) Sabre -2hp thrust -3hp cut (+2 to pluckiness if it's British)

3:21 I generally prefer it if people give me a blow without cutting me...

I like your cheerful attitude towards haters. Also the video look slightly different to usual , are you using a new camera?

same applies in saber tourneys, some shows up with italian dueling sabers with was a lighter basket hilt, while some with gynasium bowl hilts , some with military types stirrup/bars, the weight, length and protection varies ...

Unfortunately, when it comes to competitions, there always seems to be some people who are more interested in winning than anything else. Those folks often find the best way to exploit the rules for optimal advantage, even if it is unsportsmanlike, violates the spirit of the competition and isn't fun for anyone involved. And because those people have exploited a loophole, anyone else who wants to have a fair chance has to do the same thing just to be on a level playing field. It's a great way to suck the joy out of something which should be fun. Don't be that guy.

Matt, please do more rapier videos! I posted a question, maybe a year ago asking if a rapier could feasibly thrust through mail. It's more of a fantasy concern than historical to be sure, but I'd really like to hear your response.

I remember reading something about the nobles wearing ever increasing lengths of swords and 'ruffles', so much so, the power that was had to put an upper limit on both.

I have seen you handle the "English Coin Hilt Rapier" (my terminology for it, since I do not know a specific name for that style hilt) in several videos now and it is gorgeous. I am very very interested in who/what company makes that, specifically the blade. It has a very pleasing looking profile and most interesting to me the large tip. Also, a sincere thank you for all the great content you have put out over the years.

Is there an online document describing the different point breakdown mentioned in the end of this video?

I'd be interested to see more about diff types of rapier blades -- as represented by practice swords. Most of them, from Castille Armory to budget Hanwei rapiers, seem to have very narrow blades though cross sections defer. Be nice to see a practice blade representative of the several blade types...

I agree with what you said. My old fencing master does have some XVIII century short swords, we call them espadins de corte, and they do have edges. But, like you said they would not cut as deeply as longswords or sabres. However, soft tissue would be easy enough, so some points would be awarded. It would be hard to fight with a ripped muscle, an open artery or other soft tissue injuries... Even being tapped on the head can be unpleasant enough. Having blood getting in your eyes can't be represented in a tournament... But it would affect you performance. So... Point. Here in Portugal at some point there where rules made by the king to limit the length of dueling rapiers. Again, even though they were thin at the tip, the edge could still cut through soft tissue; I mean... Even a sharp tips can do that let alone a sharp edge, even if with little mass. And we don't need to cut through bone to kill or seriously injure a person with a cut. Even superficial cut can be a nag, imagine a cut made purposefully with a sharp steal instrument aided by a fast moving very sharp steel object, backed with some bodyweight application. It's always hard to fit the rules to what reality would be like because of all the variables. In HEMA you allow for afterblows within a larger time frame than in modern fencing. However, although those could happen, other times a mere counter to the weapon's arm could completely stop an stack and prevent any other, just to give an example. There can hardly be overall concensus unless everyone recognizes no set of rules can absolutely a account for every variables. Even the periodic changing of rules will just result in different adaptations to the rules of the different games. But that is what Is beautiful. We take techniques that were ment to kill and turn them into a game (or into an artistic expression when talking about artistic fencing and stage fighting in general). Neither is real nor should it be, for people died when it was real. They serve different valid purposes. So... I believe you shouldn't fret too much about the pontuation...any set of rules will always reflect a determined set of possible situations in detriment of other that were also possible. Like in the case of attacks to the hand that would sometimes stop attacked and, although not usually fatal by themselves, could leave the opponent opened to a death stroke. Anyway... Keep up the good work! Love you videos. Even though I've been working with swords and other weapon's since I was there in 1983, and I work with modern, artistic and HEMA fencing as well as several Oriental martial arts, I still sometimes manage to learn something from you. 😀 Cheers!

we have a single sword (generally rapier and sidesword) tournament where swords are categorized by length and width, which determined points value in the cut. Each fighter declares what category blade they had before entering the arena, informing the scorer so that once points are calculated at the end of the fight a correct point value could be scored. It worked well to draw out the individual properties of the swords and emphasise a fighting style that matched the properties of the blades they used. The lightest and thinnest blades literally couldn't score on the cut at all.

Soundly argued. Difficult to formalise in a way that will please all, of course, which is a great argument against a fixed set of rules for all tournaments. If one treats competition as another way of honing skill, rather than the goal of training, then that's all the better...

Try a topic where duelist used different swords one on one; on foot, and which sword was the most consistent when it came to victory? Perhaps a follow-up to your, "which sword is best in a dual to the death" video.

Prehaps limit rapiers to draw cuts only, to make them match the effectiveness of a sabre cut points wise? I do SCA (don’t really have any HEMA in my parts) and that’s how we deal with cuts in rapier, primarily. We just did a tournament the other day (I’m new so I was dead last, 0-2-4 in three rounds)... Matt you mention you have a rather long rapier, and personally I prefer shorter blades on my swords, what would be the maximum length for an early short sword / later transitional rapier? I’m thinking of maybe getting a 36-38 in blade for my primary practice sword...

VERY NICE! i agree with the scoring system. Should motivate people to use more weapons :) nice!

You would assume hema maybe test out different blades with various strikes on realistic targets to work out scoring.

And you echo my frustrations with FIE sabre fencing :)

Should tournaments be broken down by century to showcase more of the different styles?

What is your take on draw cuts, especially by lighter weapons?

At the last tournament I was in, a "strike without authority" disqualified a hit from earning points.

Matt would you say that the smallswords with edges ,were primarily their the discourage grabbing, vs chopping cuts ?

It is something to reflect on. How about using a sliding scale of points? Say 5 points for a solid thrust which would be fatal for any type sword, then 4 points for a solid cut with a sabre type blade, 3 points for a cut & thrust type rapier blade that cuts a bit weaker than a sabre blade, and say 1 or 2 points for a very narrow rapier blade for a push or draw type cut, but no points for slight tap cut for a blade that can't really cut. Perhaps before the tournament have tests for similar swords which are sharpened to see how well they can thrust through clothes and how well they can cut say through straw mats say. Basically agree beforehand which swords can actually do damage thrusting and which swords on a sliding scale can do actually do damage with cuts. Obviously not all swords are equal but that is the point. That way you avoid rapier becoming an epee/foil with a fancy hilt.

Would it be possible to agree upon a series of assessments of the blade chosen, and change the points given for different strikes accordingly? Alternately could the choice of blade be considered part of the participants' skill and knowledge? I'm thinking of someone who uses a nimble thrust optimized blade, for an opponent they know is more vulnerable to that style, but chooses a more cut optimized blade, for an opponent they have observed leaves themselves open to that kind of strike.

@scholagladiatoria: I think a fascinating topic would be a comparaison between a cut&thrust rapier VS. a smallsword with triangular section of the SAME LENGTH, say 90cm blade (like modern épée & foils). I think that such small rapiers and such big smallswords (especially colichemardes) did exist in the transitional era. I think that at equal length, the triangular section makes the thrust a HUGE advantage. Yet, some cutting capacity should not be overlooked. Sir Easton, what say you?

As a rapier lover, I wholeheartedly agree. Not acknowledging for the different capacity of different rapiers (or swords, in general) would turn HEMA into sport fencing 2.0. And that would be... Utterly ridiculous, at the very least.

100% agree. I have been using dark wood bated rapier blades for 15 years. Switching to a Castile rapier simulator has been shockingly different. The cuts are considerably easier but I can't see how they would injure anywhere other than the most sensitive areas of the body. Whereas the bated rapier blade would easily injure a person with a cut even if they are more difficult to pull off.

I agree with you, Matt.

I don’t even bother with cuts to the torso with my rapier. It’s so narrow that I use a 22 long rifle shell on the end to help blunt it. It’s a stabbing weapon that can certainly disable a limb and whack someone in the head.

Matt, I love your style and your work and listening to you has dragged into the sharp and pointy world. What is your opinion of the heavy rapiers of the the SCA? I was trying to find a local HEMA group and found them instead. I was going to walk away but they're really friendly and have really amazing fancy hats.

for me a solution for tournaments that allow long and light rapiers with blades that would cut deeply is to either to score only thrusts or to prioritize thrusts much more than cuts (like on swordfish). in this option people focus more on thrusts (which is ok with this type of weapon)

May I make a suggestion? Nowadays, it is more than feasible to make your own force-meter. I am talking about a small device and sensor you could place at the end of your sword, and it will give you an accurate estimation of the impact force. I am not sure whether that is all too interesting to you but it would make the judging of impact force objective. There is a very active youtube community behind this hobby. These youtubers would probably love to collaborate with you. I can suggest Andreas Spiess. He is a very nice Swiss man (shipping cost is lower!) who is always looking for new ways to make his youtube audience happy. Oh, and he is an engineer who understands physics.

Hey Matt, can you show us that Chinese sword in the background?

I think something that might help in tournaments is to have people focus on trying to get a hit on a particular part of the body without getting hit. For example, if I was running a Rapier tournament I would say only thrusts are valid and only thrusts to the head or center of the body would count. It would not only give people a greater focus on how to attack or defend, but also make scoring easier. In addition, it would also discourage annoying things like hand sniping or trying to get quick taps or the like. I realize this might not be completely historically accurate, I openly admit my knowledge on Rapier is limited, but at least from the tournament perspective it would make things a bit easier for training and judging.

How about standardizing the "tournament" rapier?

wouldn't hits to the face from any rapier cut the cheeks and nose, as its soft tissue, with dire effects? Or is the idea that even though it would cut, the cut from a saber to the face would be so much worst?

Surely 'can cut' or 'can't cut' is also very much relative to what you might be hoping to cut through? Being able to cut through an exposed neck to the jugular vein is a very dangerous and useful ability, and a lot less challenging than slicing through the chest of a tough jacket.

There is cutting. And there is chopping limbs.

Agreed, and it's happening.

Hey Matt, idea. State your desired conclusion at the start then make your case. If you started with I think rapier tournaments should score differently for the cuts of specific blades, then made your arguments that would make your videos flow a bit better

Are the built with tournaments in mind rapiers truly historical in their concept? If they are not what are they doing at a HEMA contest?

Idea: you can enter with saber or rapier or whatever, but you must use a "tournament rapier" or suchlike, provided by the sponsors, not any random mutation you bring. Spendy, but would be fairer.

Perhaps a weight-class system would help rapier scoring. Heavy rapiers against heavy rapiers and light rapiers against light rapiers?

Perhaps it could be dealt with in that way: each cut is a point, each thrust is a point, yet the nature of the cut/thrust is writen in the score. I mean, sc and st for saber cut and saber thrust for instance, or rc and rt with the rapier. Therefore, if both rapier user and saber user scores a cut and the dual ends there, instead of equalty, the saber get the victory, and if they both score a thrust, the rapier get victory. If each score the other type of hit (cut or thrust) than the other, they got equalty because either they scored both the advantageous hit, or both the disadvantageous hit . Howether, if one scores more hit than the other, the more hits scored still get victory. Does it looks like a good way to deal the issue?

Good man

Your idea could also be the base to introduce spadroons in sabre tournaments, less points for the cut compensate agility.

What did a Spanish Conquistador era "war" rapier look like? I recall reading they could lop limbs (thought I don't know if that was exaggeration).

I think we are confusing cut with hack. I sharpen my own knives/blades, they are razor sharp. If I had that sort of edge on a rapier, I would not need much weight or effort to CUT. It's really scary when you think about it. I think this speaks a bit to the metal technology of the day. Softer/brittle metallurgy would not hold a thin edge very well, so the styles best used would be to pierce and/or hack with mass. As metallurgy improves, strong, thin blades would hold a very keen edge that would require little mass and effort to cut.

Sadly in Olympic fencing this ship has sailed - with the rules being dictated by the equipment (most evident in the flick). The majority of Olympic fencers no longer seem to regard it as a martial art and seem quite content with these mechanical accidents dictating the form. But people get into HEMA with the idea of simulating the real combat skills I imagine. So it makes sense to keep updating the rules to keep giving a closer experience to real fighting in those weapon traditions.

I have a 37" Hanwei Practical Rapier that I rather like (and because I'm poor). How would it fall on your spectrum?

I guess the real solution is to give away the armor and fight to the death.................

More importantly; Is a Highcastle Rapier more effective than A Krondor Rapier or a Darkmoor Rapier? And how would they fare against the Keshian Inner Legions?

Are there any good single stick treatise written before 1750?

Maybe rule makers can set requirements on type of rapier and separate the different types into different events. So the heavier more historically accurate rapiers go against its equal, and same thing with the lighter and perhaps more floppier ones.

When an element of competition is introduced to any rules-based activity, be it business or sport, people suddenly become very good at adhering to the "Letter of the Law" whilst ignoring (or murdering in its sleep) the "Spirit of the Law". This is especially true of sports (like fencing) where competitors can bring their own, modifiable equipment to a competition. As a veteran of sport sabre fencing and a complete HEMA noob, I would hope that for HEMA, "Spirit of the Law" is held in as high regard as "Letter of the Law". In the context of HEMA, this entails respect for the art form, respect for one's instructors, peers and opponents, respect for tournament/sparring rules, respect for historical and archaeological sources, etc. It's not enough to follow a set rules. You should also try to 'live' them. These ideas should be a basic component of training. More so than the 'winner' of a tournament, I feel awe and respect for the fencer who holds up his or her arm in an important bout to acknowledge an opponent's hit, even when the presiding judges have missed it. To me, that embodies love for the "Spirit of the Law".

I kept thinking "why not just subcategorize rapiers?" until you mentioned you did just that. But maybe also take into consideration the style of the fighter, i.e. Destreza both uses longer blades and hounds the head and neck with cuts that are meant to be incapacitating. Those cuts should be more valuable than those of schools that adopted the longer blade lenght but with square or triangle section blades.

This seems like a hard scoring system to implement, espeacilly since in many of the bouts I've seen the judges and refs already have trouble awarding points.

Hi Matt, I'm a big fan of you and your channel. It's my dream to study HEMA, though I live in Japan in a city where there is no such thing. I did study sport saber fencing in college years ago. BTW, I am designing a TRPG... and I use your videos as inspiration for my design. My understanding is that you are not a role-player and do not have interest in that. But I would like to make a suggestion. I feel that you should find some good role-players - people who play D&D or Runequest (that's an old RPG, more popular in Europe, which came out shortly after D&D) who like HEMA. Sit down with them and hash out some rules, then iterate on the design to make it work-able and eliminate exploits. That's what RPG game designers do. Off the top of my head, you can create a letter classification system - say 4 tiers. A - thrust only weapons, B - thrust and light cut, C - thrust and power cut, D. cut-only. Then the real-world technical specs match to meet the class. Rapiers under X inches length with over X weight can be in group B. To assist you in the categorizing task, you can plot weight and length in a normal distribution graph (so... find an RPG nerd who like HEMA and knows statistics) to come up with normal weight/length for each class and define acceptable variance. You can then have hit target mods to the class structure. B-class (light cut) do standard points in cuts neck and head only. Full cuts negate counter-attack point scoring, as do thrusts to head. Some scoring mechanic that increases the incentive to protect ones' self from after-hit counters. And then, publish the rules. Make videos about the rules. I think you are quite influential; if anyone can push for rules-standardization it would be you.

Matt Easton: a rapier can't cut easily through a pig carcass Doug Markida: hold my sake

What's the difference between a military rapier and a sidesword ?

I was watching 2019 swordfish finals. I'm not into the judging. Slow motion cameras should be used and the judges should have to review the footage before deciding who wins or gets a point. I know this would take longer but if you want something done right.....

I think thrust only points should be scored for rapier tournaments. It would make the fencing bouts easier to score and will bring out better quality and more entertaining fencing.

My problem is that they don't use a actually rapier, when we see tournaments they use a tin rapier which makes the use of skill less necessary and the speed more deciding. A actually rapier is longer and heavier which you can't maneuver that easily without technique and skill unlike the wiggling stick they use, this is why "La Verdadera Destreza" focused on math and geometry, a actually rapier can be used to block attacks from a longsword although i doubt it can block a greatsword tho but yes the rapier can parry and counter attack and if a master of the blade that knows how to handle the rapier good they could do a accurate trust through the small openings on armor but every weapon has their pros and cons and it always comes down to who is the best fighter.

And this is how we got to modern sport fencing.

This is the one of biggest problems in HEMA. Referees score the rapier fights as if they are lightsabers. Most of valid longsword hits don't even cut through fabric in real combat.

Interesting dilemma. I have a fencing background but am interested in HEMA. Ironically, I think that making the scoring rule adjustments you suggest would lead you down the evolutionary road that olympic fencing has gone down. As HEMA grows more popular and tournaments grow larger and more mainstream you will invariably see participants who are not as fanatical about the martial aspect so much as the sporting one. Over time these and other competitors would naturally gravitate to the lighter, more flickable sword that would give them a competitive advantage at the cost of realism. If, on the other hand, the rules were changed to allow only the heavier style of rapiers, you would potentially stifle innovation in equipment and development of new techniques. It's a difficult balancing act staying true to a sport's roots vs embracing innovation. Olympic fencing and Formula 1 are some great examples.

This brings up a broader problem in HEMA scoring. Not all cuts are equal, even with the same weapon. A light tap with a saber isn't going to have the same effect as a strong impact. The same is true for thrusts. But there's no way to accurately score wounds in tournaments. There winds up being an advantage in delivering quick light attacks that wouldn't create serious wounds in real life. I don't know any way around this.

Maybe it would be good to have a test cut, in say balistic gel before. If you don´t get any damage to it with a cut. you don´t get any points for a cut.

May I borrow a few swords for a sabre duel for honor? I've been watching HEMA videos , so I am ready. hahaha

But is a rapier and sabre really similar in cross-section and size for the thrust? Not even the ones you were holding up had similar blade widths at the point.

Makes sense. Historically a variety of rapiers as well as other contemporary swords were used against each other with a reasonable equality of effectiveness so one type should not dominate HEMA tournaments. Perhaps there should be two or three classes of rapiers with different scoring and maybe a separate open rapier competition for tournament optimised designs. It all boils down to counting martial blows instead of sport touches.

When you've used these rules, have you had disputes regarding the performance of someone's favorite weapon? It seems like it would put the judges in the crosshairs of anyone with an axe to grind.

is that a jian in the back ground???

Imagine having this information on how too long rapiers / foils don't cut. Then parrying and grabbing your opponents blade and absolutely wrecking their, then explaining yourself to your opponent & referee's.

matt, you still haven't cleaned that spear

yes of corse a sword type should have performace related points, same as you have in gaming systems, a slow heavy weapon will do more damage vs a fast light sword doing less damage per hit therefore as you have the knowledge of sword types and combat with you should take into consideration the blade and attribute the points per hit

I suspect that the problem might lie in ascertaining precisely how debilitating the cuts would be - in the Arya vs Briene 'fight', none of the 'cuts' inflicted by Arya would have been fatal but the cut (if drawn) to Brienes' right knee would certainly have inconvenienced her. In a fight, each cut would handicap the recipients ability to both offend and defend, but then, so would adrenaline so unless it is a real fight then it's just a game with rules which can (and will) always be 'lawyered'.