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I've actually figured the people of Halloween Town age (Save for the Vampire Bros.) from the Oogie's Revenge game. If you click on the guillotine in the square, you get a bit of text from Jack saying that he had a guillotine "When he was a boy." And in the Vampire Bros. house, if you read the book in the room where you put the bats away, it mentions that they have served Hallwoeen Town by aiding "the Sovregin of Screams." AKA, the Pumpkin King. And I like to think that each Pumpkin King has a unique power thanks to this game and the movie. While Edger could control the wind, Jack's element is FIRE. He did not burn alive at the beginning of the movie and in his Pumpkin King form in Oogie's Revenge, he is able to breathe fire like a fire-eater. Most likely, whenever the Pumpking Crown is passed down, the new Pumpkin King's element is awakened and they have particular mastery over that element. But that's my theory.

Death probably was the pumpkin king before it was even a thing. It's far older than Halloween itself after all, so Edgar, being a pumpkin, was probably the first proper pumpkin king after Death decided to stop ruling the realm once Halloween became Halloween.

For some reason I feel like the Pumpkin King was also under the control of insects, specifically the spider. Maybe his tenure was coming to an end because the bugs were causing him to rot as evidenced by his head. He needs Oogie to be the next vessel because Burlap sacks don't rot like pumpkins do. He lays his body to rest so nonchalantly because even though it seems like he failed, he succeeded in transferring himself/his evil essence into Oogie.

Maybe the reson why Jack has been alive and has been the pumpkin king for so long is because he's not a pumpkin, and is a skeleton. Because, Skeletons don't actually wither away even after death. They can be broken and crushed but unless they are burned by fire than they can't really disappear (Aka turn to ashes by cremation) which is why he is has been the king for so long. It would make since if the past pumpkin kings have been actual pumpkins like Edgur, but pumpkins slowly rot away and become moldy and squishy after a long while of being laid out. Which, would mean that they are all basically gonna die at some point. Unlike Jack, who is, again, literally a skeleton.

I think Jack does have supernatural powers; immediately after he says he's a "master of fright" he adds "and a demon of light", which is highly suggestive. Then, immediately after THAT, he says, "and I'll scare you right out of your pants" while waving his hands down at the pumpkin patch, causing all the jack-o-lanterns to open up and moan, and the ghosts inside to fly out. Perhaps his "and they call him... Sandy... Claws!" moment at the town hall was not the Mayor sliding a red filter over the spotlight, but Jack exerting his control as a "demon of light" to alter the environment... to make it more spooky! And that could very well be the reason we never see Jack flexing his powers as the Pumpkin King: those powers are to scare people, and, for most of the movie, he neither needs to nor want to. Heck, the whole point of the movie is that he's tired! He doesn't like his job anymore, he's burnt out! The only time in the movie where we would expect to see him use his powers is during the confrontation with Oogie Boogie, and we DO see a number of tricks, though most of them are less mystical and more feats of strength and agility. Thing is, during that fight, Jack utterly DOMINATES Oogie; nothing Oogie throws at him causes Jack any trouble. Everything is easily avoided or dealt with, with only a second or two on Jack's part to observe and plan. Bear in mind, a "master of fright and a demon of light" doesn't NEED cheap tricks or cheats to win, and Jack doesn't use any, nor does he at any point have his back against the wall in such a way where it seems like he'd even need to consider it. I do think Jack, as the Pumpkin King, has powers... but I think he's the sort to use them responsibly. The only time he (potentially) doesn't is when he's lamenting that even powers can't bring him fulfillment.

There seems to be a general theme of characters from halloween town not being inherently evil, but being caused to become evil indirectly or causing evil themselves accidentally. For instance, in the original movie Jack himself ends up becoming a villain simply from the joy of discovering something new and wanting to experience it for himself, and is eventually regretful when he realizes what he's done. If we consider this story to be canon to the original film, it paints a picture of evil being something not native to halloween town and its residents, but rather something consequential in nature. Even this Edgar fellow seems to be a corrupted soul victim to the same curse he's passing onto Oogie.

The pumpkin patch being a graveyard of fallen pumpkin kings is actually a really cool concept. I love that.

Jack isn't just the Pumpkin King, he's the king of everything Halloween! He only had one true movie but his legacy stayed true, he has lasted unlike any other character in history.

10:57 Funntidbit of information here: since we're talking about the inconsistencies of the story of Halloween Towns portrayle in different mediums. In the Kingdom Hearts series Jack is a powerful Mage. He falls under the Final Fantasy jobclass Black Mage: nothing but offensive magic. He can call down lightning, a bolt coming down every time he swings his fingers downward, as if dragging the bolt from the sky. He can summon a frozen jagged snowflake that floats through the air and follows enemies, freezing and stabbing them as it floats about. He can summon 3 massive flaming pumpkins that surround his body then dash foward, engulfing enemies in his flames as he rams into them. And he can summon spheres of solid gravity above enemies which slowly lower towards thebground, crushing enemies into the ground.

I personally like to head cannon that both “The Pumpkin King” and “Battle for The Pumpkin King” exist at the same time in the sense that one version is the story that Jack remembers and the other is the way Oogie would tell it.

So, what if the beings in the holiday worlds are powered by belief? Edgar doesn't like that Halloween Town isn't fear based, but that's because in the mortal world, Halloween was becoming more and more a family friendly, less scary holiday. If we put TNBC in "present day", it would take place in the 90's-ish (the scenes in the mortal world look more like the 50's, but whatever). And by the 90's Halloween was just starting to get back its scarier side. So, at the time of this particular prequel, Halloween has become a "kids" holiday. Less scary, more fun. Edgar is losing his power because of this (hence the withered and rotted appearance). He wants to change this back to fear to hold onto his power. This would also explain why Santa has more magic than others. Christmas doesn't change much. It's very much the same as it was 30, 50, 80, almost a hundred years ago. You'd have to go back a while to see a very different Christmas. So, Santa doesn't change, or get replaced. Whereas Halloween goes through plenty of peaks and valleys. Horror, to fun, whimsy to macabre. Death and demons, to princesses and superheroes. Jack is more the current free spirit of Halloween. Edgar was the former cold and creepy spirit.

Honestly The Nightmare Before Christmas doesn’t need a prequel. Holiday towns are timeless. The residents don’t age.

Even though its not canon to the story of the film universe, the Kingdom Hearts series depicts jack as a master of Magic with elemental spells like Bolts of sorrow, Icy terror and Blazing Fury.

Edar must represents Samhain especially with the way he was able to use magic. So he was just the older version of what holloween once was. Jack must represent a new era of holloween.

I think that when they reach adulthood, the age reeeeaaally slowly. I mean in Sally book, we know she was a lil girl once and we asume the bogie kids died when they were kids (but because of their names ) I think they were assesinated, because abusive or poor parents, and its easier to end a baby that a kid who will fight back

This is one of my all time favorite movies and I NEVER noticed the grim reaper. Ever! How'd I miss that?

6:13 "i am the who when you call whos there" "and i am the wind blowing through your hair" maybe edgar is friends with the wind blowing through your hair?

Wait so Edgar was this evil but when Oogie lost he just laid down and gave up, sounding kind of relieved for a break?! Thats such a weird idea for an addition to the story of NBC! I always thought that the Pumpkin King title was more about the respect for your role in the holiday this town exists for, but now its an inherited title and this scarecrow has to have a successor but would have in theory been able to stick around and puppeteer them after retiring, yet when that option was taken he just goes to sleep forever?! What was forcing him to step down at all? Not to mention its just kind of weird that Jack barely had a part to play in the story, does he even know what his predecessor did to his friend by the end?! Like, thats weird to think about, right? Jack just kind of won this apparently powerful role as a kid bc if some silly competitions, and even all the years later that the film takes place he has no idea what Edgar was acrually like, why Oogie got corrupted, none of it!

On the note of jack's lack of magic: While the song Jack's Lament plays, he waves hands to pumpkings and they open up, light up and howl. So... he might have some magic, besides nigh industribility.

My theory is that each Pumpkin King is granted mastery over one of the four elements; Edgar was wind, Jack is fire and a past Pumpkin King (possibly Edgar's successor) was Earth. This is because of the lines in This is Halloween that say "I am the hoo when you call 'who's there? I am the wind blowing through your hair". Edgar is the wind blowing through your hair and the "hoo when you call who's there" is likely the Pumpkin King before Edgar who could use his Earth powers to control all the night dwelling creatures, owls in particular. Similarly I think the reason why jack o' lanterns are associated with ghosts in Halloween Town is because the dust of the previous Pumpkin King is mixed with soil and used to grow a pumpkin which is then turned into a jack o' lantern which houses the spirit of the previous Pumpkin King.

Wasn't the wind in HalloweenTown alive? Or is it just whispering the whole time? Also, I thought Oogie Boogie is the mass of insects/snakes in the sack, but this prequel makes it appear he IS the sack. Situation like with Sinistea and Polteageist.

I'm just glad we finally got lore on this series, Also I kinda like the idea of oogie simply being messed up due to him being broken

If i saw this as a fanfiction id just see it as very self indulgent fun for someone who really really liked Oogie in the film but also had it in their head that they cant like evil characters so they have to make up a way that its not his fault that he is the way he is in spite of how that pretry much ruins the actual character But nope, its official, or, as official as it can get when the people making the decisions for the franchise have nothing to do with the people behind the original film or poem 😅

I think oogie was going to do that to lock shock and barrel if you remember their song. He feeds them snake and spider stew like he was fed if I remember correctly.

This book is sort of based on the gba game released in 2005. In the game, oogie boogie is jealous that Jack is scarier than him, so he infests Halloween town with bugs and turns them into crawloween. Jack wins, orders oogie to stay in his lair forever and rescues Sally in canonically their first meeting.

When there is a new video of abitfrank, today is a good day

I think Edgar's real motives were to pass down his power and way of thinking to the next generation so they could sow discord in his place. Boogie becoming the pumpkin king would have just been a bonus.

The addition of Edgar to the world and setting was very interesting I found. Everyone being kids and Jack and Oogie being childhood friends feels kinda lame though. I always liked how Oogie came from a now dead Holiday realm revolving around bugs, snakes, and other creatures. He was like a link to a far older world and culture than modern day’s holidays.

Unless Tim wrote it &/or gave it his blessing I don't want to count it as canon.I loved your video and pacing!Watched it for its 30th anniversary in theaters at Universal Thursday.I never noticed there was a GateKeeper Character in Halloween town until the big screen. (;

Today is my birthday 🎉🎂🎉 and I'm so happy you posted a video on this day

I think the reason Edgar has magic is a product of his time. Magic was believed in back then and the more recent Jack Skellington with modern houses you have mad science as the culprit of horrors.

Holy crap i was binge watching your tnbc videos and caught this one right when it was uploaded damn

I saw this show live at the Hollywood Bowl last night. Danny Elfman is one hell of a drug. He was so hyper and energized and in-character. And then he treated us to not one but TWO Oingo Boingo songs, adding “No One Lives Forever” as a special treat for the full moon weekend. I wish my phone wasn’t nearly dead so I could record it but I needed to save it as my Greyhound ticket home and to call my aunt to tell her when to pick me up.

Anyone else getting Emperor-pulling-Anakin's-strings vibes from Edgar and Oogie's interaction? 🤔

Ah yes, the nightmare before the nightmare before Christmas

I think the games have their own time line and the books and the movie are another time line. That is all that makes sense here

It seems like the holiday figures with powers are always the oldest ones, if you take into account Santa's holiday magic... while he's clearly younger than this pumpkin king... he's still an old man nonetheless 🤔🎃✨️ -Adam

I'm glad the video games are taken seriously as official lore to this series and aren't just treated as tie-in merchandise, I really enjoyed Oogie's Revenge as it actually played into the musical side of the movie by making the boss battles involve both combat and rhythm QTEs, and actually expanded the lore of the holidays to include the concept of the Seven Holidays King - a title where a single person is in control of all seven major festive events - which, of course, Oogie plans to take for himself. It's not often you find multiple media formats to be all canon to a story's timeline as opposed to just sticking to one and treating everything else as a spin-off or non-canon event, but it's something I can really appreciate about TNBC.

Makes sense that people in Halloween Town grow and get old and so forth...we see families in Halloween Town, and we see kids too, and the fact that Jack and Sally can have kids is very telling... I always considered Halloween Town like Christmas Town, just like how every elf in that town has a life of their own, some with families and kids, well...Halloween Town is the same with its citizens, just, you know...with monsters, just as we never ask if elves in Christmas Town are dead or how they can have families...we shouldn't make those questions in Halloween Town...as I think is clear people in Halloween Town aren't actual death people...and I always think of Corpse Bride as a reference, were in her Death Town, we see skeletons, heads that talk, and decaying bodies, yet all look very "normal", you know? There are dead people, but we don't see witches, vampires, werewolves, or any monsters...at very best, the only weird thing in the world of Emily are the talking bugs (funny enought, in Halloween Town bugs don't talk, unless we count Oogie)... I have always wondered, if the Holiday towns are the representation of what the humans cherish, love, and think about the Holiday...Saint Valentine? Cupid, roses love hearts, sweets, candies, silly poems, Halloween, ghouls, monsters, pumpkins, tricks, pranks and frights, Chritsmas, snow, sweets, presents, ginger houses, Christmas trees, elves, raindeers, Santa and his wife (I think those two and the raindeers are the only real immortals out there), etc, you know what I mean...so may look weird and all, but are just that, reflections of how the humans fell and think of those holidays, therefor why is important for the Towns to keep their Hollyday alive and consistent and to them to not be forgotten...or would probably mean the end and destruction of their world...)

I had a feeling that Jack and Oogie used to be friends.

It would be fitting that the old pumpkin king would be darker and more evil considering the origin of modern Halloween was much darker. The king changes as the culture around the holiday changes perhaps? And if the holiday where to ever die out, what would become of the denizens of a dead holiday town? That could be an interesting plot actually, the denizens of a long forgotten holiday try coming back by trying to take over Halloween town.

I hope you have a happy Halloween 🎃

Now I kinda wanna see a sequel story where Oogie gets redeemed and Edgar attempts to retake control. That line of "for now I can rest" seems to imply he doesn't plan on staying down forever.

I love your videos so much! I hope more people discover this channel:)

Always happy to see you drop a new video, Abitfrank!

evolution of the boogie man 1 Oogie baggie 2 Oogie boogie 3 Uhgie buggie

I love lore, Halloween, and nightmare before Christmas and graphic novels so sign me up. Also Edgar slogan is definitely " let's Make Halloween town great again".

Since I'm writing a little N.B.C. story/fic it's always nice to go back to your old videos for insights, and suddenly find another one today!

What if the old pumpkin king became the wind from the line in the opening song “I am the wind blowing through your hair.”

I’m pretty sure he can control pumpkin patches to do his bidding. He also may have the ability to use grave yards as a direct access to Halloweentown(that could just be a thing where all things spooky lead to Halloweentown).

2:42 as I was watching this i found this to be an interesting question, I definitely think the Grim Reaper isnt in charge because honestly death isnt all that scary. Theres a ton of other ways your life can be ruined without you dying, and death would be a blessing during time of extreme horrors.

the movie briefly does indicate jack and oogie were friends in the past this could explain why they became enemies

I’d always thought the pumpkin king is more a less a mishmash of a monarchy and elective official in which one who hold the role is kept in power through how well they serve their people and the holiday they represent. But here it seem more or less just a title earned via pageantry

I dont know who else said to make a video about the manga preqel but i got so excited when i saw this recommended to me. I love your nightmare before christmas videos.

6:35 i’m not sure you played the games, but in the pumpkin king, the video game, Jack has the power of wind in that game in Oogies revenge, Jack had the ability to transform into a scarecrow and use fire abilities and transform into his Santa Claus, like form, and use ice powers so Jack does have powers. It just said he doesn’t use them that much in the film Jack apparently can stretch his skin skeleton skin, whatever so Jack has some probably shake shifting abilities, and since his dog zero is a ghost, Jack also has the ability to command the dead I think all pumpkin king has a lot of powers, but Jack doesn’t use them that much

My head canon is gonna be that the Pumpkin King is basically to Halloween what Santa is to Christmas, and whomever rules the holiday gets powers. In the video game, Jack gets fire powers when in the Pumpkin King form so maybe thats his equivalent of Edgar's "Wind" powers.

well Jack and Boogie have quite of a history.even in movie mention of the name boogie boogie to Jack, anger jack fair bit

The serotonin I get every time you say Oogie Boogie - so good.

I am the who when you call, "Who's there?" I am the wind blowing through your hair

The pumpkin king was able to control a whole character as a character in the Halloween song says "I am the wind blowing in your hair"

Jack has once mention that he was alive during the movie

Oddly enough, this past weekend, I came across a copy of this graphic novel at my local Walmart. I thought it looked very cool, but I didn’t have any money to spare in my budget in order to get it. This video helped explain the plot to me and I thank you greatly.

It’s interesting to note that while Jack never displayed any sort of wind related powers, it could be argued that Oogie Boogie does, given his usage of a vacuum breath ability similar to Kirby.

8:56 I suppose you could say... "he pulls the strings and makes them ring"

i am the wind blowing thru your hair in this is halloween, there are so many more references just to that song and lines throughout the movie

I would kill for a Nightmare before Christmas stop motion animated series or an animation style similar to the Tangled cartoon only spookier. The show could adapt the pumpkin queen book, do this comic in flashback, explores the other realms, and have recurring characters from each realm, and set up the return of Boogie, as well as set up an evil eviler threat. It would also be cool, in the cartooon, if they combined Nightmare before Christmas’ Halloween town with Disney’s other Halloween town just to see Marnie her family and friends return in animated form. (Or I suppose the other Halloweentown could be an alternate universe to Jacks only accessible through another door in the extended forest. Actually now that I think about that could be a better idea to crossover both franchises, with out contradicting either.) There could One season every October into November. Kinda like a Halloween special mini series every year. I think that would be cool though.

Oogie was originally Dr. Finkelstein in a suit but was scrapped because Tim who hated this idea so much that he kicked a hole in a wall

The battle for the pumpkin king being the sequel of nightmare before Christmas, with Jack skeleton and Oogie Boogey, be in a contest, they should turned that into a movie because the story feels like a sequel from the first movie

So, I got one thought, if Oogy was corrupted with bugs, then was he filled with something ELSE originally?

"If a demon hands you a cup and you drink from it, are you at fault? Yes. Yes you are.

I’m surprised you didn’t mention the line in the opening song ‘This Is Halloween’ while the camera pans over Sally: “I am the wind blowing through your hair.” This line actually occurs right before the shadow of what looks like Oogy Boogie over the moon singing “I am the shadow in the moon at night, filling your dreams to the brim with fright.” Perhaps Oogie’s shadow in the moon is all that is left of the real Oogie, or maybe a reference to how is merely a shadow of who he once was. Also, when Jack is singing on the spiral hill just after the opening scene, he leans down and wiggles his fingers with his arms outstretched pushing air through the Jack-o-lanterns that then seem to exhale ghosts. Maybe he has the power of the wind but chooses not to wield it, and that gracious restraint is what makes him so kind and beloved by the residents of Halloweentown.

Considering that Edgar can control the winds, does that mean Edgar could be the line “I am the wind blowing through your hair”?

Idea, perhaps Edgar being corrupt and dealing with worms and bugs,as well as gaining power possibly have a connection, perhaps in exchange for his power he had to give up his right to remian un aging.

Jack does use a some form of magic at spiral hill to make fire and light up a field of Jack’o lantern. It’s basic magic, but lighting a candle is how many magicians start.

one of the first things in the movie's intro that you see is wind manipulating the door open, blowing a sign so the pumpkin headed scarecrow points towards the town, and jostling some ghosts around as the vocals to the music begins. I'm now inclined to think that the first character we are actually introduced to here, is Edgar, and that we just never knew it. If ghosts can exist, then surely Edgar is somewhere in halloween town, no longer the pumpkin king, but a frustrated spirit. Maybe his spirit even still has a little bit of it's old powers. =) thatd be cool right? also it's pretty gnarly that Jack dresses up kinda like Edgar for his grand entrance. I wonder if this is some traditional thing or if Jack was really like 'hold my beer" XD

I admit that it kind of felt like a chapter was missing towards the end, like a confrontation of Jack and Edgar's philosophies.

6:40 "I am the wind blowing through your hair"

There is magic in halloween town. Jack's pumpkin king pyrokinesis, the witches flying on brooms, the confirmed magical bugs/ bag that make up oogie boogie (as well as the control over bugs), the ghosts/ undead just existing and possesing other things like jack o lanterns. Jack and the clown tearing off their face/ head (also the clown disappearing in a flash like teleportation), the innate magic of halloween town/ other holidays/ hinterlands/ holiday doors, the ability to travel to the real world during the holiday....

I’m an aging curmudgeon presently exhausted by modern nostalgia mining. I respect the analysis here, as I do understand that this universe is deeply meaningful for a lot of people, but I can’t help but feel that the new book is basically glorified fan fiction and a callous cash grab to boot.

I love the art pieces you do for all these videos!

Honestly i always considered Jack Skellington to have an elemental link to fire, ever since we saw him first loght himself ablaze in thr movie with that torch

Honestly I think the wind is a sentient thing as we hear them in "This Is Halloween" so I believe the wind is an old friend of Edgar's. It is similar to the grim reaper/death and does not interfere with the happenings of the town. At least that is what I believe.

Tbh I feel like the book is a thirdbase canon since it kinda contradicts the GBA game

I always imagined that the people of the holiday towns aged slower than mortals.

Brings a new idea to the scene where it says “I am the wind blowing through your hair”

Love this

Watching an analysis on one of my favorite movies with a voice as soothing as yours is a treat.

It's fascinating how after 30 years this series continues to grow and having more of its lore explored and expanded.

Very interesting! - i didn't know anything about there being a prequel. I have to wonder whether Jack himself is a pumpkin or a even a true skeleton as he is said to have originally been a kind of voodoo doll as seen in the background of the short film Vincent

People saying quotes it doesn’t need a prequel” can you shut the hell up. Give me all the nightmare before Christmas contents possible! But it has to be done, right. That means Disney stay away.

Never knew the grim reaper was in the nightmare before Christmas. That's such a cool easter egg

If I remember correctly, Tim Burton mentioned that there is no magic per se in Halloween Town. But since you mention it, considering that Santa Claus uses magic (to return with his reindeer sleigh and bring snow to Halloween), the residents must possess some sort of mysterious skill or characteristic that allows them to make use of supernatural powers (like something out of a nightmare or a horror tale), as how the clown who can remove his face, how jack can survive being burned for a few moments, the existence of zero (i know its a dog ghost, but does he "dies" of old age or will he live for more time than his owners?) or how the mayor can rotate his head.

Maybe Edgar isn't made of pumpkin and his true form IS the wind. In the opening song the wind has a part so maybe he is wind or some kind of wind spirit residing in a pumpkin and manipulating it like a body to play his part as the pumpkin king. And upon dying/resting the wind leaves the vessel and returns to its original state.

So he controls wind? I cant help but be reminded of the lyrics in the opening song "I am the wind blowing through your hair." Maybe Edgar still watches over the town in some way?

The wind is an entity from what I gathered from in the opening scene of the TNBC. Perhaps Edgar was holding the wind against their will and using them to give himself a “power”.

6:32 crazy idea but what if jack has the powers too due to being pumpkin king but doesnt see a reason to use tjem

Grim reaper is busy enough, he does not seek the top spot.

If someone hands you a cup, and you drink from it, It's 100% YOUR FAULT.

I had no idea there were games and novels for the movie 🤯