I would pay a pretty penny to witness a conversation between Gabor Maté and Jordan Peterson.

This bloke is new to me and as someone with PTSD I think he’s really nailed the flaw in Peterson’s behavioural worldview. I approach the dilemma by having Peterson as the guide but in practise utilising a trauma therapist, a positive psychology support group and a lifecoach. It takes a village.

I was very influenced by Mate growing up. I thought I'd found all the answers to life and the human condition when I first stumbled upon him. In some ways, his work was very beneficial for me; but in others it was a hindrance. I have a natural inclination towards agreeableness and reflexive empathy. Gabor teaches that compassion is about the most virtuous and constructive emotion to deal with suffering in yourself and others. So I strode to always empathise whenever someone I knew was going through pain. The problem was, since I already had a disposition in this direction, I could not help but feel and get wrapped up in everyone's pain around me. It got to the point where someone would tell me a problem and in stead of helping them come up with a constructive solution, I would immediately try to placate their suffering by telling them what they wanted to hear, or giving them what they wanted. This left no room for my own sense of self and my own needs and it wasn't in any way helpful to the people around me. It wasn't until I discovered Peterson a year ago that I heard someone say "empathy isn't always a virtue". As well as espousing the benefits of controlled aggression. And that reflexive empathy past a certain age can do more harm than good. I admire both Peterson and Mate. I feel that perhaps Gabor over emphasizes the importance of compassion, while JP does the opposite. One hole I see in Mate's idea of trauma being the main cause of human suffering is this. Different people can have the same experience and one will be traumatised and one won't. This tells you that a human can grow to a point where they can deal with an experience that others might find traumatising. Gabor's answer to this is to make damn well sure your child doesn't experience anything that may cause trauma. While Peterson's answer would be to make damn well sure that if and when your child comes across something potentially traumatic, they have overcome a sufficient number of challenges that has strengthened their character so they *can* deal with the experience. Studies showing the damage of helicopter parenting support JP's position. Though I imagine Gabor would say that "helicopter parents" are not genuinely connecting with their children but are simply attempting to placate their own anxiety about their child's potential misfortune. I think both of their perspectives are helpful and, in fact, complimentary. Don't let your child do something that'll make you dislike them. Make sure yo condition them with incremental challenges for the world to come. But also, give yourself time to have a genuine connection with your child and try to understand the world through their eyes.

"The less it meets your real needs the more addictive it is" 8:45. This is a great quote.

Having been an avid listener of Peterson for a couple years, and having completely tuned out from him due to his behavior and words as of late, Mate's perspective on him has aged like a fine wine.

Don't put either Mate or Peterson on a pedestal. Both men utilize their time, knowledge, experience, with the intention of helping people the best way they know, and believe they can. There is nothing more admirable than what they both are doing. I absolutely appreciate both perspectives.

This channel does a great job on actually interviewing people without interfering with what they have to say!

Thanks! I’ve listened to him before, but he’s not as prevalent as I’d like. He has some of the most relevant and constructive approaches to addiction that I’ve ever heard. And it was so refreshing to finally hear an articulate and logical criticism of Peterson while still appreciating his strengths. Most commentary on Peterson is either blatant misrepresentation or blind acceptance of everything.

"If you have no meaning in your life, ideology gives you a pseudo-meaning" - Gabor Mate

Holy smokes this guy is amazing

I've always felt Jordan peterson needs better conversation partners. and i dont mean "debate opponents" . Its always either people who already admire him and already agree with everything he's saying just placating him through the whole conversation, or people openly hostile and ideologically opposed to him trying to misrepresent him the whole time. So I would indeed love to see them speak.

Ideology is addictive, I think because we like to see patterns, and Ideology puts a kind of patterned template on reality. If you have already decided what the solution is, every problem that arises will reinforce your decision. Every question starts to have the same answer. Our perception of reality is very flexible. As the saying goes, when your only tool is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail.

A simple comment, here: I could listen to Dr. Maté all day.

Besides the content. Gabor's use of English makes me just want to listen to him all the time. Major fan. I attended a 3 day event he did in UCC in Cork Ireland. Best use of my time ever.

Can I just add something that I think was missing from this otherwise intelligent and considered appraisal of social media? Humour. The only social media I engage in is; live streams on KZfaq and comments sections of KZfaq videos. (I'm not on Facebook, twitter or instagram.) And oh my goodness, the humour, the fun, the riotous brilliance. I live in a deracinated London. My natural community long gone. My neighbours are utterly unreachable for a variety of reasons, all awful. I'm old and not fantastically healthy. My new 'friends' don't know that I'm an old woman. They don't know anything about me except for how we communicate and laugh until we hurt when we connect through humour. About issues ranging from anthropogenic climate change to what's going on in the mind of a two year old. I am so grateful for this. I really cannot describe what it has done for me at this stage of my life. I have lived, worked and had a career, bought up children, cleaned rooms until my hands became arthritic, had life threatening health problems and survived. And if anyone had told me, twenty years ago, that I'd be having this much fun, at my age, in the condition I am in...I'd have laughed. I am still laughing and that, for me, is a miracle. Thank you social media.

I love listening to this guy. His words are poetry to my ears.

Regarding Gabor's critique of Peterson's "subscription" to "a murderous religious ideology" - Gabor should watch JP's one or two biblical lectures. How Peterson interprets those biblical stories is nothing I've ever heard during religion classes at school or in church (where my mom would drag me over when I was young, I'm not a believer/churchgoer now). Those lectures are incredible. They don't make you want to wear a cross on your chest, it's something different, it opens eyes to some universal truths, "walking with God" is essentially believing in your highest potential and promising yourself to try to realize it no matter the obstacles while caring to add value to your family and community... I particularly recommend the lecture on Abraham. I have even no clue if priests would agree with Peterson... he said in one of them he doesn't even go to church because priests show no substance, no passion, there's nothing there for him. And when asked "do you believe in God?" he usually replies "what do you mean by "believe" and what do you mean by "God?", and he adds that tries to behave in life "as if God existed", so I would never say that Peterson is encouraging people to blindly follow an ideology, he actually discourages people from all ideologies.

As I get older it is easier to see who is really genuine and who is un balanced or on cloud 9. I love the genuineness of Gabor Mate even within crowds he does what he feels is right even though it maybe un popular. He will tell you that he don't buy what you're saying, and I'm not just referring to Jordan Peterson but people who attend his talks as well and I love that about him.

My wife is a long-time big fangirl of this guy. She's a street nurse who deals with junkies all the time.

One again guys, thank you for the work you do and this podcast. Aho!

I am an admirer of both. And it would be really great to see their concepts collide and find further meaning. Looking forward to such conversation. 2019?

I have found my addiction and it's my Ideology. It seperates me from most people and some family, but my ideology is quite frugal and impoverished, I work but hate money, I give most of it away to family, I over pay my bills and give to the street people, as I struggle. But I feel so strong, resourceful when Im poor, so free when I have nothing.

Well said on Peterson! Gabor captured exactly what I feel when I listen to Peterson’s incoherent rambles: self-serving, reactionary, repressed rage at his own position in the world. A dangerous person to gain fame/notoriety among young men who flock to him because of their own repressed rage, which he (hopefully, inadvertently) provides a platform for it to find expression in an unthoughtful, crass manner. Mate - in stark contrast - articulates a deep understanding of human pain and suffering, alongside a pathway for healing.

I love Mr Gabor Mate's authenticity and ability to have these fierce conversations, calling out humanity on what we need to do to take responsibility for, and ask for, to find health and harmony; within and around us.

This is a very insightful conversation. Thank you for doing what you are doing. Keep it up

I am a great admirer of Peterson's intellectual rigor and his insistence that we adopt a moral code given the failure of religion and state ideologies, but Mate was on the mark with his observation of Peterson's repressed rage and its genesis in early childhood. Children need to be encouraged and nurtured towards altruism but if they are coerced from their natural greed and selfishness through guilt, threat or violence then you end up with a partial adult - someone who chooses perhaps to do the right thing but through fear of sanction and not through natural, spontaneous human altruism.

The fantastically thought-provoking stuff just keeps coming from you guys. Congratulations on another.

For someone that claims to know a lot about curing addiction and cultivating self-critique and self-awareness, jp sure does love two things: Lecturing people on topics he knows shit about... and his benzos.

I personally consider Gabor Mate to be a gift to mankind

Please do a talk with Gabor Maté and Jordan Peterson. It would be so damn interesting!

I have started thinking the same about myself right now. I am so grateful to have become fully healed after I was in a rollover accident at age 63 6 months ago in addition to loosing my sister and my uncle within only 3 months of my accident as passenger in a defective car. I was close to my sister and close to that one uncle more since he lived with us until I was 8 years old. However I have fallen in love so much with discussing ideologies, philosophies, politics, religion etc. online that my closest relatives are getting more than just a little annoyed on how much time I am still spending online.

This Man is on it....How refreshing and peacefull it is to listen to him speak...the tone of his voice resonates with my Spirit..i think Tesla came from the same region this Gentleman is from....I learned so much from this short interview. Thank you and I ll be looking for more on Gabor.....

He says many profound things. I don't think I've ever seen a human being who seems to be functioning this effectively who looks as depressed as Dr. Maté does, though.

Gabor Maté has helped me understand my darkests longings.

I am very impressed by this interview and I can’t wait to read his book. Outstanding.

Fantastic interview! Dr. Mate's work is so important.

I am not a liberal or leftist by no means but I think Gabor has more depth and understanding than Jordan Peterson.

Great interview, such an insightful man, and entirely balanced and spot on regarding his evaluation of Jordan Peterson.

Wow, this is great! Indeed, it is time for this man to have a conversation with Jordan Peterson

I agree with Mr. Mate's brief views about social media completely. It's no permanent substitute for face-to-face communication. To the extent it is , it is a road to addiction. The trumpets of triumphalism for KZfaq, twitter, and the rest are premature .

I wish Pablo Picasso was still alive to paint Dr Gabor Matte

A lot of good work dealing with societal and peer pressure that manifests and accelerates addictive behaviours is being done as we speak by many men's groups around the world bringing the concept of community. What a beautiful interview!

A wonderful interview, thankyou both.

I would like to have him as a therapist. He could really help me out. He got it.

Gabor Mate's work exists within the mythological garden. Peterson explains the whole territory, not just the part that is edenic. We live in a society that is capable of being edenic for large swathes of time, unlike most of human experience. I am capable of providing an eden like experience for my children (I can make the time to attune to them, to titrate their experience of danger and evil) maximising their ability to live life on the edge of chaos and order, and I would do this most effectively in a way that is beyond how Peterson writes about parenting, but I believe wrapped up within it, toward what Gabor mate talks about - neatly articulated by one of Piaget's students, Aletha Solter: in recognising just how often children experience fear, hurt, and frustrations that need to be processed, first by the body's natural means: crying, trembling, thrashing, laughing, yawning in a secure attachment, and then evermore integrated through the more advanced and elaborated means of action-based play and language. Gabor on his own, does not provide a broad enough psychology, peterson on his own does not provide an intricately detailed or idealistic enough set of goals for dealing with our emotions, and he fails to elaborate the beneficial purposes of compassion. Gabor will punish his children, wether he likes to admit it or not, Peterson gives you a way of acknowledging this and harnessing this, however Gabor picks up on something the mainstream of research based psychology tends to ignore, which is the possibility of processing the vast majority of these dysregulating experiences and returning to a state of neurobiological harmony with ourselves and with those around us, our tribe, and accessing a greater degree of our natural intelligence. However, I very much doubt that this was the norm or even common through out human history even in tribal societies. I like my children alive thankyou very much. So both is good. Gabor as the idealist within Peterson's eden. All of Peterson's warnings about eden (or at least most of them) still apply to Gabor, and especially as Gabor attempts to make claims about human systems and society's which is where his thinking falls apart, as both tribal, and historically inaccurate, an idealism that is noble, but if not placed within the mythological garden, and attempted to be applied broadscale, is just as deadly as communism and all the other acts of revenge against being, humanity, and reality.

Great interview. Always pleasure to listen to this wise and humble man.

Thank you so much for this. New book on my shelf.. I mean in my hand!

As someone who's appreciated a lot of what Jordan Peterson's had to say, I'd be really interested in a conversation between Gabor and Jordan. I think some of what Gabor said here wasn't a fair representation of Jordan (and his audience), but I really want to see all of those points gone into in more detail! As a young guy, I've gone through a lot of the more "spiritual" side of things online, trying to absorb ideas; and I gained a lot, but it wasn't really until Peterson that I started hearing about aggression as a productive and controlled thing. I actually feel like Peterson does the opposite of teaching repression when it comes to things like aggression. Most other people in our culture seem to indirectly teach repression of aggression, I'd say. I like Peterson's passion and disagreeableness. I'm naturally quite disagreeable, and I'd say it's only since I've found Jordan that I've seen that trait as a tool to be used intelligently, and not something I just have to repress

I’ve been trying to come to some sort of resolution between the more behavioral and the more attachment approaches to psychology for years. A conversation between these two would go a long way in helping lots of people make sense of the discrepancies between these two approaches. Both very knowledgeable, both highly respected and I get the sense both would be very respectful of the other.... Rebel wisdom... you guys have been stepping up your game. Kudos to you!

Bravo! Will communicated… Thank you for the insight!

The issue of trauma, both personal and collective, definitely needs ongoing attention. It would be great if a discussion could be arranged about this topic between Maté and Peterson.

Well this interview has completely transformed the interviewer for one lol😁

He's right about Peterson, pure rage

3 hour podcast with Dr. Maté and and Dr. Peterson and I’m willing to pay!

Deeply, highly accurate. Love it!

Yes, the ultimate conversation! Gabor and Petersen!!

This is definitely one of your hits.

Gabor Mate is an incredible man. I first found him on the Tim Ferriss show and I listened to it probably 3 or 4 times.

As always incredible depth and eloquence from Gabor Mate.... thank you. I particularly appreciate the emphasis on trauma. Trauma is what has us split off from our Self (capital S), it is what creates polarisation, and thus addiction... it has only one origin... a disconnect from 'true' Self. If we take a top down and bottom up exploration between trauma and true self, we will both close the gap, and ultimately return to a singularity expressing from the absolute..

I am a fan of both Mate and Peterson. I understand Mate's criticism of Peterson. It isn't hard to detect the anger in him. That said, I'm not sure I would call what Peterson does with his anger repression. I get the sense that he has set up pop-off valves for his anger, oriented in the most productive ways he can manage. I get the sense that Peterson attempts to harness his ager and aggression toward the service of of well thought out aims. And that, to me, is commendable. That said, perhaps the line between that and repression is a thin one. Maybe it's a slippery slope. Maybe Mate has a sound criticism. I do feel Peterson undervalues compassion. But I also agree with him that compassion, at least in the immediate, isn't always a good thing. Empathy is extremely useful and its intentions almost always praiseworthy. But it's often very myopic, failing to see the long term handicaps it can cause. Often, compassion is more about feeling good about ourselves; more about making us feel like we did something good rather determine what might actually be best for the other person. That said, we are rarely in a good position to know what the best thing for someone else is. However, often, neither are they. So, perhaps the best thing to do is react with empathy, but channel that energy into cooperating with others to find productive solutions. Man... Too many thoughts and questions on this topic. I'd love to see the two of them sit down and thoroughly discuss these ideas.

To use a JP example, Almost all child abusers were abused as children. But only a tiny % of abused children grow up to become abusers. Trauma is only one peice of the multicausal puzzle but there a many others.

What an honest person.

Excellent interview!

It seems this guy has something special to contribute to this dialectic, even if he doesn't really understand the excesses that Peterson is reacting to

Wilber, " they are both so wonderfully Teal and with more meditation, they will both soon embrace the glorious splendor of Turquoise":D

Thank you for doing this interview! Now I know something new.

This was such an interesting interview. It felt as though it were a 5 minute clip! And I loved how Maté was open with his sharing of his shadow self. I relate with the anger deep inside, that desire to hurt and tear down. I sometimes feel that I need to put a lot of effort to reel it in, to not let it affect others. And so interesting how he talked about the world's most powerful nation, how two deeply traumatised individuals ran for presidency is a sign of a deeply traumatised society. As well as the other ways it manifests in culture. I am eager to read his book after watching this interview. 😊

Wow, that guy grew a beard during the interview!

Gabor maté, your assessment of addiction is compelling, and I align with a lot of the ways you articulated understanding it. However, I don't agree with your assessment of Jordan Peterson regarding him pushing Christianity. He is using the history and culture of Christian religion to illustrate the importance and connection to a unifying force in nature. He is trying to figure out the point, which the Cross refers, an individual, a group, and a civilization should aim to survive and suffer the least. In addition, other genuine religions seek the same ends. Marxism is an ideology that has no over arching structure which keeps it's people and leaders accountable. The final point is regarding meaning in life. I have a proposal which I would like to vet. What if meaning in life is to realize one's self, and then through that realization manifest what is best for the world? That's the short of it. Thanks for the talk.

Wonderful. I have felt the same things without being able to articulate them. Wish I was as sensitive and aware as Gabor.

Very good observation of Jordan Peterson here! Thanks.

I wonder how much mothers going back to work before their babies are 9 months old contributes to the emotional immaturity we are seeing in our society.

Gabor might be Jordan's missing piece. He's one of mine

Beautiful analysis.

Excellent!

Dr.Gabor/Jordan Peterson/Sam Harris/Robert Sapolsky!!!!!

I can see that addiction and acting out of aspects of the shadow CAN be (and maybe very often is) symptomatic or coping with trauma. However to say that ALL shadow manifestations are repressed / unresolved trauma is an over-reach. Mate has found a gem of truth but sees it everywhere. We have consciousness and choice (when we are awre of it). We have some automatic programming hardwired from different evolutionary eras - shadow. Sometimes our shadow comes out unwares without past trauma, merely from specific situation /stimulus. Sometimes we reject it, sometimes embrace it, sometimes unaware of it. I wonder if Mate has had children. Nothing quite like them to make the shadow evident, in them and in a parent. A child might bully a younger sibling because of trauma, or because of unresolved confusing emotion, or revenge or jealousy or dominance or .... just because he can. Understanding the difference between these would be helpful in dealing with that behaviour and socialising them. But putting all to trauma and coping with confusing emotions is not helpful. As for his analysis of HC... sociopath is a more accurate description..... empathising with a sociopath is not a useful strategy.

This man is AMAZING ❤️ WARMS MY HEART AND SOUL LISTENING TO HIM

I love it when a respectful inspirational man criticises another respectful inspirational man, this felt even more real than the Peterson vs. Harris. But what it really felt like, was knowing that we're all human...even them

I'd love to see a Gabor Mate', Jordon Peterson and Richard Wolff square off in a 3-way debate!

I disagree with JP about some topics. He is not perfect, but you take the good with the bad and you move on. In his defense though I genuinely think he is trying to help people, despite any shortcomings. This is where I draw the line with other intellectuals. If I smell a hint of disingenuous in someone, then I don't trust them. I trust JP .

Wow, so sharp focused and articulative expressing viewpoint of. J.Peterson. It is very truth. Gabor´s voice is on the opposite side almost always calm and peaceful and he seems to know himself better than anyone. I think Peterson´s work is complex-motivated also.

Wow, wasn't expecting to see Gabor's work here.

I feel addicted to listening to Mr. Mate

It is very ironic that Jorden Peterson just recovered from a serious addition. Hope they two and have a conversation on this topic.

Very interesting, thanks.

Great interview

Thanks Gabor! for the boost up. And the importance of meaning! Love this guy (my impression: Jordan Peterson is a neo-Narcissist )

Chomsky - esque !! With a little touch of Tonya Harding thrown in !!

Thank you!

Gabor nailed it right on the head, extraordinary!!!

Dr Mate you said you would like to talk to Dr Peterson , we all would love to see that on youtube please arrange that with him . I see his anger when he speaks and it must be repressed anger like you said . It seems your diametrically opposed in every way . Both politically , and your thoughts on how to deal with patients . it seems to me people need both compassion and someone to show you how you can take responsibility as an adult but in small steps in a compassionate way.

While I certainly share Maté's emphasis on trauma work - I think he himself is supressing anger. He reveals it by wanting to smear Jordan Peterson for being authentic and open in his anger (which is completely legitimate given the state of the world) - however Jordan is being himself and conciously using his anger as a driving force for sharing ideas and knowledge that can inspire responsible action. Gabor is simply saying that everything is about trauma and anyone expressing anger is somehow on the dark side and bad. For me he reveals his own supression and un-natural "calm" as nothing more than a mummified mask of intense self-suppression for decades. I see no sparkle i Gabors eyes....

Gabor Maté observations on JD are spot on, JD’s recent comment, ‘Act like there is a God’, with the implied ‘be/do good, you are being watched/there are repercussions you will not like and can’t get out of’ is probably a fall back from his prostrations’ on Christianity post his contact with Sam Harris and co… What is the meaning of life? What we mean to others - that’s all… …and that is why/how we built societies across the world - we can make up Gods if we want, but save for the stereotypical hermit (very rear, and usually ‘troubled’) what we mean to others is the ubiquitous and omnipresent key to sustainable societies, because, in the final analysis, we are all a ‘we’ and all an ‘others’…

Great interview and interviewer as well.

Lol Gabor is soooo right about Peterson ! Absolutely full of rage ! Spot on !

Okay every time someone tries to justify their negative stance on Christianity they all ways bring the crusades up or a Spanish Inquisition, and I gotta call bullshit. You don’t morally compare medieval cultures with modern ones and say they “both had problems.” Not only are the body counts absurdly different, but the real question you can ask anyone who says this on the spot is “name the conspirators who ordered the killing and who was it that died” I’ve never gotten an up front answer. Stalin and Mao killed around 130 million of their own people, not even counting their wars. That was 70 years ago. Comparing that to a coalition of medieval nations treading a war path 600 years ago isn’t “fair”. People are still currently getting shot by their government on behalf of communist ideals today.

we can take from both Mate and Peterson

I can listen to this man all day long.

Mate is completely wrong about Freud and Trauma, The Oedipal complex , central to Freudian dynamics, is based on the trauma of the loss of mother's love and rage against the father. Or am I missing something here, or is he defining trauma differently from Freud?