@benjatronic Thanks for your thoughts. We thought about this a good bit before naming it. I fully agree it would be ideal to teach these skills to beginners, especially because the techniques can save lives! And I feel that climbers shouldn't rappel unsupervised until they understand these techniques. With that being said, we felt like it's impossible for a beginner to absorb all the prerequisites to employ these skills in 1-2 days. The other reason we decided to call it 'advanced' was because we use terminology and techniques in the video that wouldn't make sense to a total novice, i.e. shock loading, friction hitches, etc. If I taught a full day rappelling class I probably wouldn't get through all of these techniques if the students had never climbed before. Thanks again!

Josh Beckner thanks for the respectful response! I feel more than a bit pedantic now 😢 and you're totally right, there is a bedrock of knowledge in there that I probably took for granted when watching.

This video just showed an interested party (me) that rappeling can be both dangerous (withoutl) and safer with these techniques. I agree with others this should be titled.......Before you rappel

what do you mean, i always make a knot at the top and jump the full lenghth of the rope down. its good that i saw this video, wont do it ever again.

Yea I am inclined to agree. If you don't know the setup and techniques necessary to prevent 85-90% of the rapping accidents that occur (outlined in this video), you probably should NOT be rapping because you're going to be way, way more likely to kill yourself.

Good to hear, I like it!

Kyle H what is a me loop third hand method. When you put a sling though a prussic to climb on?

Its when you tie a prusik or auto-block off of the leg loop. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ZteXrMqYndbed30.htmlm9s

Although it's fine if you have extended the belay device as he did in the first part.

@@davidcross30 If you extended the belay device then there is no reason to have your backup on the leg loop, you can put it on your belay loop. Also, the belay loop is rated, a single leg loop is not.

scuba3steve3 the failure they are talking about is the prusik contacting the belay device. The prusik is there as a third hand in case you let go of the brake rope (for whatever reason) and the force required to hold the brake rope and stop you using the friction in you belay device is next to nothing. You can hold it in your thumb an fore finger (I don’t advise doing that but it shows how little force you need to operate the device). Like many things knowledge of different techniques is like tools in the toolbox. Understanding the use and limitations of each tool is more important though. Otherwise it is a case of all the gear; no idea.

Kieron Desmond I fully agree. We could only fit so much into one video though. Thanks for your important comments.

Thanks, glad you got something out of them!

I know Im asking the wrong place but does anybody know of a way to get back into an Instagram account?? I was stupid lost the password. I would love any tips you can offer me.

@Chandler Rocco Thanks for your reply. I found the site through google and I'm in the hacking process now. I see it takes a while so I will get back to you later with my results.

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@Deangelo Kendall glad I could help :D

Glad it was helpful!

Some gyms teach some funny stuff...I'd recommend checking into your instructors credentials before you put your life in their hands.

Thanks for the thoughtful contributions, Tony!

Grzegorz Soczomski That's great to hear, thanks!

Red eternet

@@JoshBeckner plooo po ooooo ol ploooooplbooooolopllpplpllookoopppoppioi wE÷eee÷÷÷e÷e÷÷÷ee÷÷÷÷3is e DeHose you 33

Yeah this is not "advanced", this is "basic" stuff that everyone should be doing before rappelling.

Yes indeed! I also use that PAS as well. Petzl calls it the Connect Adjust Duo.

Agreed, definitely a good idea to try out the fireman belay from the bottom while the person rappelling has a 3rd hand backup before using this method as the only backup. You have to pull surprisingly hard if there is a lot of rope stretch, and be well aware that if an accident occurs in which the rappeller is knocked unconscious, the person doing the fireman belay on the ground will need to hold the rope constantly until a rescue plan is decided. If falling rock or ice has hit the rappeller, then it will very likely fall directly onto the person doing the fireman belay, as well, which isn't an ideal backup. The one benefit that a fireman belay has over a 3rd hand backup is that in the event of an accident, the person below can easily lower the rappeller to the ground and avoid having to ascend the rope.

You're welcome! Glad you got something out of it!

Thanks, much appreciated!

Glad it was helpful!

Thanks for the comment, John. It's good to hear that the backup systems are saving lives!

@@sietschoolforinternational5234 I always prefer direct attach ATC device to belay loop, long prussik to rope above device. If lose control, slip onto prussik, and they move apart, not come together. Rapell with left hand on prussik, right on braking end of rope. Can always stop, use left and right on braking end if you need to, then resume. Why only consider long friction device and prussik / auto bloc below? Guess your objection might be tying up left hand on the prussik to make forward progress, but was never a problem?

Peter Boyle if you slip and engage the prussic above the atc it would put all of your weight on the prussic. If the prussic is below (auto-block style) the prussic only has to handle braking tension.

@@PB-sk9jn Similarly to what Chris said... I had a friend (an experienced abseiler, trained through a rescue group) using this technique accidentally load the prussik while on descent. He was unable to unlock it even with assistance of his mechanical ascenders, and ultimately we had to cut it - not ideal!

@@angusdalton1 fair enough then, I'll switch.

Yeah, I think that's another totally legit way of creating a reliable third hand. Thanks for the question.

Por nada!

Glad you think so, we try hard!

T B For sure! That would be a great method if you had a longer friction hitch than what was demonstrated in the video. Thanks for the tip!

its a great video :D

Claudio Yañez Were scheduled to have 6 more published by the fall!

Claudio Yañez Were scheduled to have 6 more published by the fall!

Thanks!

That's a really good question. In theory it could, BUT if this were to happen, our first instinct would be to grip the rope harder which would likely keep the friction hitch from grabbing the rope!

@@tonyjewell478 That seems likely! But I'd hope that maybe we'd realize what was happening and let go fairly soon, letting the hitch catch. I'm going to try this scenario out near the ground soon...

It's just rappelling.

Great, glad it helped!

Seems like it would use up alot of the sling and make it shorter and thereby a bigger PITA as rap stations. Also a trick for getting knots out of dyneema slings, put the knot on a rock and use your open flat hand to roll the knot on the rock. Works like a charm and loosens even some pretty stubbornly tight overhands.

Hey Graham, good to hear from you! If you stack the rope carefully into the saddlebag you can go with just one. One on each side is more complicated and thus slower, in my experience anyway. Generally speaking the friction hitches have less holding power in the following order: prussik (the most holding power), kleimheist, autoblock. The garda is for hualing or fixed line ascension, it's not a friction hitch. PAS's made of dyneema don't absorb any energy so critical to have a rope in the system if it's going to be dynamically loaded, like with an extended runner. Even if you're clipped to bolts and tethered with a dyneema sling and you shock load the anchor (factor 1-2), this wouldn't be good! You're probably not going to rip the bolts but you might seriously damage some internal organs or jack up your back pretty good. Petzl has a dynamic tether (the Connect Adjust) that would be a good alternative to other PAS rigs that don't have any dynamic capabilities. Thanks for the comments and hope to see you out there sometime soon! -JB

Yup, thanks Andre!

You guessed it- LCC!

That can work great, but in many situations the partner isn't competent enough to figure out what to do at the next rap station. And if you might lower them too far, especially if communication is impaired due to wind/distance. Thanks for the comment!

Kiwideano, thanks for the anecdote, it's always great to hear first hand stories of things (almost) going wrong. Be safe out there!

The butterfly would certainly be easier to untie if it receives a huge load. I generally teach the overhand because it's faster, easier to visually inspect and can also be loaded in all directions. The strength is nearly the same as the butterfly and in practical applications, the strength doesn't much matter since no one is breaking modern ropes in the field in 'regular' climbing applications.

Does anything speak against using a clove hitch to fix the biner for the rappel device? Easy to tie/untie, multidirectional and even if it were to slip it would be stopped at the end of the extension sling.

@@robertkrug5865 Clove hitch works fine. Many people prefer the extra security of a real loop knot that's easier to inspect.

That's more than adequate.

Thanks for the thoughts Kevin. This topic is still debated in the recreational community. In the professional community the debate is long over. Here's why- The belay loop is the single strongest part of your harness. if it's in good condition (ie doesn't need to be retired), it won't fail. If it does fail, the forces that created that failure were likely so great that you were killed anyhow (or you wish you were :-/ ). Many people often quote facts from Todd Skinner's accident because his belay loop failed. However, that was an exceptionally old, worn out, retired harness that he never should've been using in the first place, plus he had daisy chains fixed to it in a way that allowed the leg loops to wear most of the way through this belay loop! So, it's like saying that you should always use two ropes because 20 years ago someone incorrectly used their rope and it got cut over an exceptionally sharp edge, or a rope broke because it was exposed to battery acid, etc. In all these cases the problem was user error, not equipment failure of *reliable* equipment. It's also worth noting that Skinner's accident was/is the only report of a belay loop ever failing. In climbing courses we often try to drive home the point of redundancy. However, this is not a 'rule.' There's many components of the system that aren't redundant. Think about what happens when you catch a lead fall- single locking carabiner, single belay device, single belay loop, single rope, often big forces, and those components never fail (unless of course it's user error, ie letting go of the break hand, loading a grigri backwards, etc). So, the take home point...the belay loop is plenty strong and doesn't need to be questioned unless there's reason to believe that it might be time to retire it...in which case you should just retire it. Hope that helps.

@@sietschoolforinternational5234 i have heard such a perfect explanation of how to apply redundancy in the climbing world. Wow

bourquejocelyn exactly, spot on mate!

I was going to ask this exact same question. Also Dyneema CAN be shock loaded and it'll hold, The problem is when you put a knot in the system. The knot significantly weakens the sling. Nylon slings don't suffer this issue quite as severely as Dyneema. They are thin, and when you shock load a knot, they heat up. The friction at this point generates enough heat to lower the fall rating and the sling will snap. DMM have done extensive tests showing exactly this happening!

Tying the ends together also ensures you don't forget to untie before pulling the rope.

​@@taylor1315never thought of that - great indeed

Great point, just make sure you don't have twists, they can get BAD in the scenario you're describing.

the rope absorbs the shock

Yup, what weisseseis said!

4 mm cord. Determine the length by experiment (something like 70 centimetres, also determined by the way you tie it.)

I'm guessing as long as you are stopped it would lock up both strands but as soon as you tried to progress down it would start slipping through.

The third hand holds the brake side of rope so below. Above the device you would be putting all your weight onto the friction hitch. The reason it's called a third hand is because it literally takes the place of your brake hand if you let go.

Yup, what gimme' said.

Fabio de la Fuente looks like 120cm by 11mm. 8cm wide would be massive

120cm x 10mm.

Cheers, glad you enjoyed it. We should have another one out in a couple weeks...stay tuned!