But they've had 10 years. Age of Sigmar has had a DECADE to do what they will to make these core factions their own. And they haven't. I'm sorry but look at the model lines. Outside of Chaos, Death and Destruction, there's very little thats actually unique to AoS. I suppose a follow up video could look at the change in landscape for AoS once these model lines have bee returned. But massive spoiler alert, Fyreslayers / Idoneth / Kharadron all remain The Same. And that's the problem, isn't it. The factions you have made, are ignored with token releases, and the factions that you favour swell with developed ranges. Night Haunt Are the measure all AoS should be compared against.

@@jhminiatures7867 Yeah and in that 10 years they've made what I would consider 21 high quality miniture ranges which I would consider very impressive compared to it's contemporaries and it's not like they've been slowing down, this year alone they refreshed 4 army ranges along with a wide variety of releases and started the trend that not even 40k had until now that every faction should get at least one release an edition. Also I'm a KO player and while I would like new minis that would be me wanting more variety than actually thinking that my faction is incomplete. And the reason for that is because a lot of AoS armies have very dynamic playstyles that compliment the army range. I would take playing KO any day of the week than any flavor of WHFB dwarfs and I don't hate fantasy I just find the aesthetic and playstyle much more enjoyable. Also once again that logic doesn't hold when you point it literally anywhere else in Warhammer. Oh yeah 40k doesn't deserve to make Exodites, Dark Mechanicum, or Emperor's Children in the future. They've had all this time to make their armies but haven't taken the chance until now so they don't deserve them. What about Cathay and Kislev? Warhammer Fantasy never did anything with them but TWW have fleshed them out into their own factions with units, characters, and lore so TOW doesn't deserve them. Honest to goodness I love both games and I would have liked to see collaboration between the two games and I would go to bat for every TOW player who wants to use AOS minis for their armies or even vice versa. But people like you make it really hard to keep justifying it for me

​@@jhminiatures7867 Outside of Chaos, Death and Destruction? Kharadron Overlords, Stormcast Eternals, Idoneth deepkin, Lumineth Realmlords are 100% unique to AoS and order factions!

​@@gstellar96 The comparison with 40k or any other game system is false. There has Never been a situation like this. Where a game was retired, it's 16 factions absorbed into a new franchise, and then 10 years later brought back, with a careful carving out of content to return. This is uncharted territory, and there just isn't a comparison we can make. My point is that AoS as a game system has been given a 10 year head start. To make new factions, develop pre existing ones, and clearly identify the ones it does not need and can be returned. I will always be biased to WHFB and the old world, and see no reason for AoS to hold onto legacy factions when you have quite adequately made your own. It's ironic too, that out of all of it no one bats an eye at the cities of Sigmar being dismantled for the high elves, dwarves and empire to return. But skaven and ogre kingdoms strike a nerve. Because they were already well fleshed out to begin with. Skaven in AoS have the same motives, characteristics, warmachines and yes Models compared to any of their previous incarnations in WHFB. They really haven't changed, at all. You added almost nothing in a decade, and have fallen in love with them. Wonderful, but they aren't Yours. You didn't make them Yours like you did the vampire counts or the daughters of Khaine. There is one last video I could make, where we examine what an AoS line up would look like if All WHFB models vanished. Honestly, I don't think it would change as much as some of you may fear.

@@jhminiatures7867 It's a very reductive mindset to tell someone who maybe has never even heard of fantasy but enjoys these factions in aos because of gameplay or lore "No you don't deserve them, they don't belong to you, you haven't done anything with them" when people who build armies, paint them, and play with them are as valid as anyone else and are welcome to play whatever the hell they want in whatever game system they want. I see where you're coming from, it seems that internal management problems have caused rifts that are restricting a lot of TOW factions and I sympathize with that. I honestly would be fine with every single mini from whfb being removed from aos because I know eventually they'll be replaced with something better. But factions like Chaos Dwarves, Skaven, and Ogre Mawtribes. I do have a problem with being told that the AoS team don't deserve to do their own takes on these factions because I feel that as a base concepts they already fit very well in AoS as factions and it would be a shame that people who are excited for those factions to not get the treatment of quality that the AoS team can provide that I honestly believe TOW team doesn't have the resources yet to do.

P.S hope you feel better soon from the COVID stuff! Never fun to deal with that.

It's day 3 of having COVID, and I won't say I'm enjoying it 😂 however, I'm sure I'll recover in due course. Thank you for your concern my friend. I couldn't help myself with the Spartacus intro. It makes a lot of sense. Ultimately, for all the bitter animosity between WHFB and AoS, the reality is both games Can and Will exist together in some kind of harmony. It is now up to us to decide how that harmony is shaped moving forwards. The old world did, after all, only come back into being 2 days ago. (By the metric of, actually having a presence on the website again, and being able to spend money on TOW products.) First can I say thank you for your analysis of the points that I raised in the video. I think you have some very prudent comments there and I'd recommend anyone who has watched the video to also read through your comment fully. However there are areas I disagree on. The idea that both systems must share lines, with for example skaven or chaos warriors/Daemons. This I feel is false. AoS hasn't developed these factions into their own element, not nearly to the scope of the vampire counts / night haunt and so on, and because of this I feel would lose nothing if taken from AoS as a system. An argument in favour of this stance is that GW is working on new products for these factions, which justifies their remaining in AoS. But until we see evidence of this, this remains speculation. Chaos Dwarves received Nothing, and as ForgeWorld no longer exists, you can't even get the "old" models anymore to enjoy in AoS. So why keep them. Although you have a valid point with GW being able to put two sets of bases in each box of kits. Simply choosing whether to use them on squares or rounds as appropriate. I...actually want to say that for the first couple of editions of AoS that basing didn't matter at all. Certainly from the 1x A4 page print that was it's initial launch, that had no restrictions at all. It's really more WHFB / rank and flank games that care about models being able to stand base to base. I disagree with returning ApS characters to TOW willy nilly. Nagash as a prime example, in the time period TOW is set I'm fairly certain he's dead after the 3rd time he was murdered. I identify Lord Kroak in the video as one that would only need minor adjustment, but the brutal irony is there are other character models that AoS inherited that just became "generic dark elf assassin" when in WHFB they were a special named unit. If anything, the fact WHFB has returned means we can have these discussions, and the irony that it is WHFB, 2 days after the game's return, making the first move to rebuild bridges with it's attempted killer is not lost on me. Age of Sigmar Delende Est.

I'm alright 😂

Bonesplittaz look horrible thats why. If GW wants ppl to buy their overproiced plastic then make it at least look pretty.

@@jhminiatures7867 Maybe it's the bitterness that's making you ill - funny how we've got this game back and some folk still can't find joy in it. Doomed to be miserable I guess.

@@makeytgreatagain6256 Agreed!

Is there a tinge of irony with your username being "do not respond". 10/10, I took the bait.

So I have seen this posted around a lot but there are two sort of glaring issues with it. Beastmen and warriors of chaos. They both are in AOS with nearly all their old models or a refreshed range that could easily cover for their old models. I mean warriors probably gets away with the fact you can't do warhammer without them...but beastmen aren't as necessary.

@@2009VandA The fact beastmen have a new range is why the old models are now free. The same goes with Chaos Warriors. But they are setting this game narratively just prior to the Invasion of Chaos. Why do we not also have Chaos Demons? Because the range is not been updated so the old models are sold in AOS

Which is the 3 army problem. They can get away with Daemons split between AoS and 40k, or WHFB and 40k, but they cannot do a 3-way split

you are correct. Two competing studios, Citadel runs AoS and Specialist Design Studio runs Old world. They have different sales sheets. So SDS doesnt want anyone to buy the new Seraphon models to play Lizardmen, as that would increase sales for AoS.

I too look forward to developing psychic powers and being able to read the future.

Because it's baked in. If you were here a decade ago, you'd understand.

@@jhminiatures7867 I was here a decade ago, and 2 decades ago, and I'm not seething. But to be fair, I've got other things to care about in life than just Warhammer...

Been around since 3rd . I brough the edition still played them past the end times. I understand, I felt the hurt, not the first game they paused support on and will not be the last, but depends on the narrative you wish to push I suppose. It would be good for the community if people where promoting that both games can exist and the benefits as we all just like pushing little toys around a table to chill out @@jhminiatures7867

And I'm not advocating for both games to live, side by side 😂 you clearly didn't watch...what, the first 60 seconds of the video?

Why not? There are examples of models happily supporting multiple game systems (once you buy models you can uses other games systems GW is not going to knock your door... or are they? ). I did watch 80% of it, to be fair I got fed-up and skipped to the end to see if you back tracked on this narrative@@jhminiatures7867

I mean, they could have done that at any point in the kasy decade. But they didn't.

...Because that's where they came from. At its height WHFB 8th edition had 16 factions, with potential for a further 2 in the form of Kislev and Cathay, which we sadly never saw. So yeah, they can handle them With Ease.

@@jhminiatures7867 Your argument doesn't make sense tho. WHFB died because it was unprofitable. These armies are now part of a presumably more profitable and ever expanding and updating game system. Now we're supposed to rip these armies out of the hands of their many AoS fans and give them to another game that already failed once? I am all for Old World succeeding and cross-compatibility between game systems. I draw the line at totally removing armies from AoS for the sole purpose of putting them in Old World.

I love, Love how AoS fans are offended at the thought of having anything taken from them. When 10 years ago, not only was that what happened to the Warhammer Fantasy fan base, but more! The game was killed dead and replaced! You will Never understand sigmarine.

@@jhminiatures7867 That is a false equivalency. Fantasy died because it was not profitable, not because of AoS. AoS emerged to pick up the pieces. What you're suggesting is denying armies to AoS for the express purpose of giving them to Old World.

@@jhminiatures7867 I don't have a problem with Fantasy. I played Fantasy for a long time before I started with AoS. I now prefer AoS but I still like Fantasy. I am glad Old World exists and I hope it succeeds. I would like to see cooperation from the two fanbases and model ranges. This does not have to be a conflict with petty insults like "sigmarine," we are all here because we like fantasy (concept not just the game) and toy soldiers.

Sure.

That was a lot of writing to say "I disagree."

It's not that they can't co-exist, it's that GW have initially stated that they Won't be coming back to WHFB in the old world, and when you look at the AoS line up, well, after 10 years you've done nothing with them.

@@jhminiatures7867 I think your comment partially answers your own issue here. Yeah they said they wouldn't return to WHFB so they focused a lot of effort on developing the new stuff unique to age of sigmar, letting the existing kits live on while they built a wide base of many factions. They in essence tried to speedrun in a decade to get as many (now more even) factions on it's roster than it's contemporaries in 40k and other games got to leisurely produce over twice or even more of a time frame. Not the smartest decision IMO they could have dialed in back by 30% so less factions felt anemic in second edition but here we are. It's only been in the past 3 or so years (so likely longer given a lengthy development pipeline) that we've seen major revisions and additions to old model lines. That lead time on development is likely also why the release of Old World feels so... small. It likely was only in the past 4-5 years that the decision was made to put some investment into the idea after some successful video games brought fresh interest into the old setting. And now in that short timeframe they've (hopefully, tho we've yet to see it meaningfully manifest) invested time and effort into developing two factions that only got some brief model runs and lip service in Kislev and Cathay. So in five years they've developed two potential model ranges and I think 6 kits between Brets and TKs between FW and the plastics teams. That's actually a fair bit of output for a smaller team. I think it's important to remember that in spite of it feeling like not much has been done in a decade we're actually seeing the most output GW has ever had with them pushing out new releases almost monthly betyween two flagship games (40k and AOS), three secondary games (Old World, HH and MESBG), and multiple smaller projects (Legio Imperialis, Titanicus, Necromunda, Bloodbowl and Warcry and killteam which feed into the flagship games) I think it's important to look back and realize that even when GW just had a handful of games to support and WHFB was in it's hay day, armies like Brets and Beastmen would go entire editions without even getting rulebooks. Shit, even 40k is only recently starting to put effort into some degree of model release and revision parity in it's factions and it's the golden goose of the company. I think the biggest mistake GW is making right now is releasing OW undercooked, taking the time to at least give the poster boy factions in Brets and TKs some more love and bring all the old kits up to a modern plastic standard. Some of the models being rereleased are older than some of GW's current playerbase, shit I wouldn't be shocked if there are models still for sale older than I am. It's put off some of the younger folks I know who'd rather get into 40k or AOS because the models look nicer and they don't need to paint as many, which fair enough I was a VC player and the idea of getting my hordes built and painted was daunting as a guy fresh out of high school. AOS kinda saved me in that regard, didn't have to scrounge as many skeletons as a broke college student and ended up liking the game once second edition came around. TL;DR: I think we're taking for granted 30 years of development and comparing it to a game that's trying to hit those milestones in a third of the time. They've clearly reached a place where they are comfortable enough to retouch old factions and the word around the water cooler is CD and DE are getting their AOS debut next edition. Let's give it a little more time before calling anyone lazy or undeserving when the drawing board to store shelf pipeline is a long one and taking someones toys away just because the developers had other priorities is just a gross and anti-hobbyist stance IMO even if this was just a think piece. I've been playing AOS now longer than I was WHFB and I think now that both games exist simultaneously the new bloods and the old heads gotta wake up and realize we're all buying crack from the same dealer and should be supporting eachother instead of trying to get the other cut out. Because lets face it, if AOS got canned you'd start seeing stormcast and KO and all these other high fantasy concepts leak into fantasy because clearly the designers like making, the passion is obvious in the models. Same goes for the reverse of more grounded sword and board that doesn't fit the high fantasy aesthetic. I personally am looking forward to Cathay both as an opportunity to try a hobby project outside of the sci fi or european aesthetics and an excuse to dodge dated kits when I finally buy back in. Still a little peeved about my VC getting axed but in fairness given the stated time period VC don't really have any active characters or much going on in the lore. Sucks but clearly the guys responsible for death designs are on a Castlevania binge and want to push the boundaries more than generic undead given the new sculpts tht came alongside the resculpts. This ended being kinda long and rambly but I hope this shifts your perspective a bit on what a more reasonable standard to judge the two games by might be. Cheers man.

@@tylergoodyear9797 Ironically we, in many ways, are on the same page. I think the difficulty comes in with the fact that a lot of what we take for granted now, with the return of specialist games and the wealth of hobby development, was only possible Because of how disastrous AoS' initial launch was. After all, they replaced the CEO with the Accountant. But we do not live in 2014/15 anymore. We live in 2024, and AoS has changed considerably in the 10 years of it's existence. So too has the company, not so much the player base. One topic there however, that you've touched on, I feel merits a video. The idea that were the tables now reversed, and AoS was actually cancelled, where would the model lines go? As you point out, it is highly doubtful that they would all go the way of the Chaos Dwarves and just cease receiving any support at all. Thank you for your input. If nothing else I have enjoyed how the return of ToW has sparked new conversation and debate.

I mean...the Moot from the Empire? Yeah I guess 😂

@jhminiatures7867 yeah where are the halflings. Halflings lived in the moot with the gnomes (the gnomes lived under the moot I think it is in the warhammer fantasy roleplaycbooks) and dealt ins egret with the halflongs but where are the halflings.they have just gone poof!

As much as this is a meme, there was a Chainsword that one time...

This is correct. But this is a What If video.

Yes we do

I care because I’m going to be converting AoS stuff into old world armies lol

Age of Sigmar players don’t care much for the Old World either.

Most don't, but seems like there's a vocal minority who check under the bed at night in case an horrible Stormcast Eternal's waiting for them 🤣

Grognards always lose

It will be a cold day in hell that I go to bat for the Daemons players 😂 you had an easy ride for years with your ward saves and war shrine to Tzeentch, and conveniently ignoring the entire strength-based, armour save reducing mechanic.

I am an AoS khorne player, soon Tzeentch maybe. I will not be "insulted" for a mechanic that make no sense to me!

​@@Scarycrow89 then it was before your time 😂 you need not worry about it.

🙏

And in the senate I end every speech with "-and I am of the opinion, that Age of Sigmar must be destroyed." Age of Sigmar Delende Est.