How to NOT use Panning, Mic Positions & Reverb for Better Orchestral Mixes
Рет қаралды 37,286
5 жыл бұрынHere's three lessons learned from my mistakes with Panning, Mic Positions & Reverbs which will make your orchestral mixes much more clear.
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Original Song: "Thor The Dark World" by Brian Tyler
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Libraries I use most:
- Strings: Metropolis Ark 1, Cinematic Strings 2, Fluid Shorts, Jaeger
- Brass: Metropolis Ark 1, Century Brass, Jaeger
- Percussion: Damage, Rhapsody Orchestral Percussion
- Choir: Metropolis Ark 1, Oceania
- Solo Vocals: Jaeger, Vocalisa
- Guitars: Guitar Rig
- Trailer SFX: Juggernaut, Cinematic Trailers Designed, Scenes From The Multivere Vol.1, Shredders, AVA Instinct
- Mixing & Mastering: iZotope Ozone, ValhallaRoom, ValhallaShimmer, FL Studio Plugins
- DAW: FL Studio 20
@rgferreira78 Ай бұрын
I am an experienced musician but just a beginner in terms of orchestration with VSTs. I just realized a couple of days ago that I was losing the realistic panning AFTER applying my reverb effects at the Master track level. This video is helping me push the right button to get it right (or at least it has inspired me to investigate further). So, thank you!
@johndove343 5 жыл бұрын
Big fan of the more frequent uploads! keep them coming!
@Eaglevision69 5 жыл бұрын
i did the same thing about kontakt libraries and i do agree on that point. but for valhalla (specially "Room") in that setting you might want to go for "Early" reflection. how ever they are still super panned, that is why when you turn down "depth" on valhalla you can't hear the difference you except. it's because they are still clashing together and cancel each other (Phase-Cancelation or either just volumes in spaces) if you are looking forward to make a Solid sound (Pure middle sound) meanwhile wide without affecting other instruments i recommend you to go for early reflection and give up on "Late reflection" (unless you want to go for long decay reverbs) it will be a big discussion if i want to go through that part. but for long reverb here is a trick: reduce some mono information from mid-range using EQ will give much more space for your instruments (something between 500 to 1000 Hz will work) Btw you're doing a great job here. keep it u -Cheers
@joseph_burdock 5 жыл бұрын
What's the odds lol? I was just about to look up videos about panning and then I got a notification that you uploaded a video on this topic haha.
@symbolizeofficial1899 5 жыл бұрын
Joseph Burdock he works for Google, which means he knows your thoughts & feelings & everything you've ever searched for.
@joseph_burdock 5 жыл бұрын
@@symbolizeofficial1899 It's all starting to make sense now.... 🤔
@felixstephanmusic 5 жыл бұрын
same here
@LevellerBeats 5 жыл бұрын
Another helpful Video Thanks for that 👌
@WillemvanWyk 5 жыл бұрын
Excellent Video, Alex. Thanks for sharing your continued insight and discoveries. It's really fun and great to watch!
@guilhermevian4661 5 жыл бұрын
Another big video Alex ! Thanks for the knowledge sharing ^^
@gabsauvage 5 жыл бұрын
This is some actual good informations that i didn't saw anywhere else (the depth thing mostly), thank you!
@CarmenNgMusictoRelax 5 жыл бұрын
very practical useful tips!! really thankful for your sharing!
@peshtiwarbotanimusic 4 жыл бұрын
This is one of many things I wanted to know! Thanks for the video it clears up some confusions I've been having!
@DacianGradaMusic 5 жыл бұрын
very good info, thanks for these tips man!
@SantiRamirez92 5 жыл бұрын
Genial! Ya tengo un video para mirar despues. Estos son los tutoriales que necesito! Gracias Alex!
@tboorer 3 жыл бұрын
I think it depends on the library, but you still pan a little. How much depends on the library and mic placements. That said, your mix with only the pre panned samples sounds great. I'm no expert but I'm an orchestral player. I've been experimenting with the binaural panning in logic and that makes life very interesting.
@mattinnerfrost7415 3 жыл бұрын
Just discovered this channel and... wow, when I've listen the track wasn't panning but was prepanned in the library I was without words... I have discovered a world, thank you so much, I will follow you! I'm new in composing and production music so I hope to learn more tips like this :D
@gianlucamilani7001 5 жыл бұрын
Great Alex, very practical and useful tips!
@A991Project 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks ! Really good tips here. I just try use only close mic in one of my song and it's sound so nice now !
@Basementkid-music 5 жыл бұрын
Really love your Videos😊😊 thanks for all that informative stuff👌😊
@_thanksdavid_ 5 жыл бұрын
Technical explanation: Panning with stereo tracks doesn't work how you think it does. Rather than moving the center of an instrument left to right, you're lowering or raising the volume of the left and right channels. What this means is that if you're playing only high notes on the piano of a stereo sampled piano and pan the track hard left, It's just going to sound quiet rather the piano being on the left. You can solve this problem in 2 ways: Stereo imaging (might cause phasing issues if you're not too careful), or convert the track to mono with the closest Mic possible and add reverb after. You're going to have less problems with close or spot mics because those are generally recorded in mono where as the room mics are recorded to capture more of the room.
@Aurelleah 5 жыл бұрын
Huh, i knew they were prepanned but I didnt think about panning as moving the reverb too, that's actually a really good point lmao, I totally didnt think of that!
@eds5709 5 жыл бұрын
You just solved my "writers-block"! I centered all the tracks of a piece I'm recording, got rid of the reverb and it started to sound like it supposed to sound. I'll be more careful with panning in the future. Thanks (again) Alex!
@philbrown5723 5 жыл бұрын
Very useful! Great and to the point! I'm always blown away by your tutorials and I was wondering if it might be possible to show us how you might put together an epic track using only one library such as 'Metropolis Ark 1' or 'Albion ONE' for example. I think I often get distracted by feeling the need to buy new libraries and at times disheartened when I see the range of libraries you have at your disposal so I'd love to see you make a video where you explore the potential of a single library. Many thanks! I look forward to seeing more great content!
@MultiBelz 5 жыл бұрын
Very uselfull Alex. I appreciate that.
@zaharishtonov 5 жыл бұрын
Great job, Alex! The content itself and the way you are presenting it! (No “imitation” of instruments! 😅😉). All the tips are very relevant and keeping it short and sweet.
@bub777 3 күн бұрын
I was looking at pictures for panning in Google Images and the thumbnail for this video was there. I didn't realize it was going to be a video, but this was still a nice watch, especially being provided by you. While I'm unable to take your advice about the panning because I use Live's orchestra pack, I can kinda take your reverb advice.
@muhammadhangtuah9746 3 жыл бұрын
I spent my entire life learning how to pan the right way on a premixed libraries so alex you’re my hero
@scissorteddylou 5 жыл бұрын
That helps a lot:) thank you
@kofigang1697 4 жыл бұрын
On Jaeger (recorded in center-seating positions) i should definetly pan, right?
@trevan5035 Жыл бұрын
Hi 2 years later. I almost exclusively use Jaeger and I've noticed it does have panning. I think customizing mic positions would still be beneficial, though.
@nirshadchowthee7180 5 жыл бұрын
You can enhance the spatialisation by panning the close mics only and try to blend them with the Decca tree or AB mics depending on how upfront you want the instrument to be.
@epiczeven6378 5 жыл бұрын
The panning dilemma is solved :o! You rock Alex
@MingseChen_RevivalMusic 5 жыл бұрын
Wow, that's my mistake with panning, too. Thanks a lot for sharing the tips, Alex.
@JustXiox 5 жыл бұрын
Good vid, exactly what I needed as everything seemed a little off. EastWest doesn't usually come with mic positions unless you get diamond versions. I have CCX but neglected the extra mic positions, time to download 50 gigs again ^-^
@aaroncostello4845 5 жыл бұрын
Thanks for this Alex, this was incredibly helpful. I know iv messed up so many mixes by having the wrong mic positions in the past and just didn't realise what the issue was.
@AlexMoukala 5 жыл бұрын
Same here! In the end, it is by doign mistakes that we learn.
@erngkmn 4 жыл бұрын
I like your honesty.
@ToastedCigar 5 жыл бұрын
Oh damn, this video was super helpful! Btw just curious, do you ever use the Kontakt's factory library instruments?
@pjdahmen 4 жыл бұрын
Great tutorial
@marcusfranzen1255 5 жыл бұрын
You're amazing!!!!
@werner-de-jong 5 жыл бұрын
Great, I was almost in the next phase of my template setup, applying panning on all the tracks. :) Even had researched where instruments sit in an orhestra.
@paulomtts 4 жыл бұрын
Werner de Jong I think you misunderstood him: he didn’t mean no panning, he meant *no library pre-panning*!
@KBSKasyapMusic 5 жыл бұрын
Grt video!! when can we have a walkthrough of this amazing peice by Brian Tyler amazingly done by you?
@briankatona 3 жыл бұрын
This is very helpful! So working with a stereo instrument track using something like a spitfire sample library-do you leave the track's default pan setting (hard left and hard right) or do you move it dead center?
@darkdragon5848 3 жыл бұрын
Nowadays i understand you're toturials were the best
@storytimesymphony5395 5 жыл бұрын
Great idea with the discord server! I'll probably drop by soon ^^
@alexwhite9005 4 жыл бұрын
lifesaver.
@RodrigoTPHS 9 ай бұрын
Good to know
@5ammy13 4 жыл бұрын
Hey Alex, I was talking to Daniel Beijbom the other day and he told me that he pans most of his libraries, dry or wet. This helps open up and position the instruments. The panning is obviously minimal. Not more than L/R30, but I feel this does open up the sound a bit :-D Just my two cents :-)
@jaredcrown5812 4 жыл бұрын
Thanks alot for discord composer channel :) you're breathtaking ;)
@symbolizeofficial1899 5 жыл бұрын
Wow, my Composition professor taught me that I should pan things to create more space in the mix. I'm gonna have to show this to him
@berndg6631 5 жыл бұрын
In general composition, yes. Orchestral libraries are special in that they are recorded in relation to a point within a space so they are already naturally panned.
@Evangelionism 5 жыл бұрын
This may sound very stupid, but I've not really given this thought before. Though, I can't say it is particularly surprising. Gives me more to consider, specifically, that part about your friend and his panning feedback. Thank you, Alex.
@franky7103 5 жыл бұрын
Wow Alex, great video as usual, but I'm still waiting for your analysis on this Brian Tyler's Thor soundtrack ;)
@후프존 5 жыл бұрын
wow. This is what I exactly want to know. after reverb, my music sounds too far. wand clumsy, Thanks so much alex. I joined Discord.
@underthethrone668 5 жыл бұрын
NOW I have an answer...I have been trying to figure out that Panning mystery to me...I couldn't word a proper question to get my answer. VSTs for Orchestra...really don't need panning. THANK YOU ALEX.....And yes I am a subscriber now...you really are amazing. You are doing what I would like to do...even to be close to what I hear from you.ScottyMontreal CanadaNorthern Bordr Music(yes....BordR.....:D)
@E-MusicProductions 5 жыл бұрын
Hello Alex! great video! what do you think about freezing the track before panning (with no reverb at all or the closest possible) and control the reverb separately?
@MikeBurnsArrangedAccidents 5 жыл бұрын
I was encouraged not to do this with Cinematic Studio Strings and CS2 by founder Alex Walbank as the Decca tree and rear mics used were of higher quality than the spot mics.
@andrea7182 5 жыл бұрын
Gold.
@user-yt8bf5tz6y 5 жыл бұрын
Alex大师的混响的确经常给的很大，但是很好听，希望还能听到你讲怎么给你的pecussion加reverb
@stevenm.schwartz9420 4 жыл бұрын
Let’s say you have a plug-in like 2c audio’s precedence. If you’re using a pre panned library, like cinematic studio strings, is it still useful to then add precedence to it?
@Maorio 19 күн бұрын
What do you think about MIR 3D Pro?
@AllanGildea 3 жыл бұрын
I'm a bit late to the comments section Alex, but I wanted to thank you for the helpful video and superb music.
@RyanPL4 5 жыл бұрын
Hi! I'm still waiting for tutorial from start (empty project) to finish (with mastering) of making a cinematic song :(
@ahmadmulya_ 2 жыл бұрын
how about sidechaning the reverb like you do on vocal, rather than put the reverb in the track channel then pan your tracks channel mixer , is it gonna still gonna pan the reverb too🤔 ..cause it is sidechain from the track
@timovandervalk679 4 жыл бұрын
Good to know thank you. But i have a question. I am currently using the Sonatina Orchestra, since i am just starting out and it is freeware. Do u know if i should apply panning to it or not?
@-Duyutai 3 жыл бұрын
Hello Alex Sir... 🙏 God Bless you
@conduets4939 3 ай бұрын
Is logic pros built in orchestral sampler pre panned? I hear mixed things
@falkemusic4423 5 жыл бұрын
Great video. Thanks! One question: some libraries come pre-panned, but to a different degree. For example, in one library, the bassoon may sound like it is only slightly to the right, in another, it may sound much further to the right. When I layer such libraries, sometimes this yields poor results. So, I have started to use an imager to see how extremely these instruments were panned and then adjusted the others relative to it. So, I have panned most libraries used in my template, but only relative to the library which had the broadest stereo field or most extreme panning. I found this got much better results. Initially, I was wondering whether the easiest way to deal with it might be just to recenter all libraries (for example in VE Pro) and then pan them as desired in the DAW to get a more homogenous sound across different libraries. Do you think either of these steps would be necessary or are you generally happy with the way developers pre-pan?
@AlexMoukala 5 жыл бұрын
I'd try both. Take a track, and don't touch any of the panning both in VEP and externally so to use the exact pre-pan settings, and export the audio. Then take the same track, set up all the instruments in your manually panned way and export the audio. Confront the results and see which one you like best
@maxhighstein 10 ай бұрын
If you're using the NI Session Strings Pro 2 library, your point is correct, and it is also not correct. In that library, the "Traditional" selections do include panning built in. The "Modern" selections do not, and allow you to pan as you wish. The Modern selections default to having everything centered. It still sounds good that way, but you don't hear the violins on the left and the basses on the right as you would in a normal orchestra. I experimented with the Modern selections, and found that if I panned the instruments accordingly, I could get the same stereo image as the Traditional, and it did not distort or mangle the stereo image at all, at least to my ears. I'm not sure why anyone would want to change the stereo image of the orchestra beyond either the normal spacing, or a more mono sound, but if you want to you can.
@alexmuli 5 жыл бұрын
Priceless info.What library is that for the choir?
@AlexMoukala 5 жыл бұрын
If I'm not wrong, it's Metropolis Ark 1 layered with Performance Samples Oceania.
@alexmuli 5 жыл бұрын
+Alex Moukala Thanks a bunch!Your arrangements are quite something..if i didn't see your videos i would totally assume its some hollywood composer or something.Thanks for the value offer us.
@ultralooter 3 жыл бұрын
Why are these libraries pre-panned? The actual setup of an orchestra depends on the room and the instruments being used..?
@sabbiedati Жыл бұрын
thanks!! check out my last mockup kzfaq.info/get/bejne/g9xohtxi3sWsaH0.html CARMEN BIZET COVER
@Ricardo-ns5hl 5 жыл бұрын
After lots of thinking I bought Metropolis arc 1. DO you think you can do a tutorial on making epic music only using arc 1? Is this FL project used in this video avaliable to buy somewhere or something?
@AlexMoukala 5 жыл бұрын
My FLP Projects aren't for sale, but you can download the Stems & MIDI of all my published songs on KZfaq on my Patreon page if you support me there: patreon.com/alexmoukala Also, it wouldn't make sense for me to use Ark 1 only when I have other libraries that sound better in specific parts (Damage will always sound much better for Percussion than Ark 1). However, in my cover of "The Landing", all the main Orchestra (Strings, Brass, Choir) is from Metropolis Ark 1. -> kzfaq.info/get/bejne/odlimquVztSsaaM.html
@RedHeroe1 5 жыл бұрын
hey alex i always follow you but this is hard to belive cause if i have an ensemble of 8 or 12 tracks putting everything by default will collapse the middle to me panning it's works has anyone try this ?
@AlexMoukala 5 жыл бұрын
It depends on which library you're using. If they're modern, professional and thus nicely panned, you won't get that issue. If they aren't and they're all 100% centric, then you might want to pan a bit.
@stefandy31 5 жыл бұрын
hello, i want to ask something. what is difference between using pan in channel rack and using pan in mixer? is it same? or different?
@AlexMoukala 5 жыл бұрын
I may be wrong but I don't think there's a difference in sound. The panning from the channel rack just has effect before the one in the mixer. Also, you might route multiple instruments to the same mixer channel, in that way, if you pan that mixer channel you're going to change the panning for all the sound coming through it (a.k.a. pan all the different instruments together).
@stefandy31 5 жыл бұрын
@@AlexMoukala thanks for answering my question. also i want to ask something, i think this is stupid question. which is better? channel rack or mixer? i mean your opinion. thanks
@Adrian-ly7by 5 жыл бұрын
so you dont use your external reverb on all the instruments? or just mostly to emphasis certain instruments?
@AlexMoukala 5 жыл бұрын
No, as I explained, I personally use a combination of closed mics + external reverb. But I could be more precise by tweaking mics independently for each inatrument. I'd still use a bit of reverb in that case too though, a little it is never bad.
@maplefoxx6285 Жыл бұрын
if your libraries are recorded in the same space this is ok i guess. Do you still not pan at all? On twitter recently there was a discussion about this. most composers do pan.
@johnbandadesigns4605 5 жыл бұрын
finally hears that there is a discord server and decides to join
@botondfilo745 5 жыл бұрын
What if you pan the instrument inside the vst and then you add the reverb? I think the reverb should be centered this way because you don't pan the reverb in your daw but inside your vst.
@botondfilo745 5 жыл бұрын
I mean you pan the reverb if you pan it with your daw but not if you pan the instrument in the vst and then you add the reverb
@symbolizeofficial1899 5 жыл бұрын
Bruce L. Phillips I don't know of a way that you can add reverb to a panned instrument without the reverb being panned as well.
@PaulCassidyOrchestrations 5 жыл бұрын
If you have your reverbs on a send, you are not panning the reverb. The reverb remains central and the panned instrument will react with the verb naturally.
@AlexMoukala 5 жыл бұрын
The issue doesn't come from the external reverb you use on top of the sound, but from the internal reverb of the mic recordings themselves. Like Nirshad said in another comment however, if you can pan the close mics independently from each other, tweaking the closed mic will have less collateral effects than panning the stage mics.
@PaulCassidyOrchestrations 5 жыл бұрын
It makes sense what you're saying, Alex. But I do like to pan a little because I like a wider sounding field. Having said that I don't really use wet sounding libraries such as Met Ark. But I also don't like bone dry libraries such as LASS. Ideally I would like to use all close mics and have total control on the panning and reverb. But close mics alone sound poor, almost like a mono signal, and all the character of the instruments is stripped away. Personally I always favour room mics, but then I add an EQ cut around 200 - 400hz on all my intruments, to try and remove as much room sound as possible whilst not losing the character of the instrument. I can then pan a little without encountering the problems you mention here.
@nilstarlight 5 жыл бұрын
CSSS for example has realy obvious out-of-the-box panning, while Native Instruments Symphony Ensemble Series doesn't. That just what I noticed by ear recently.
@AlexMoukala 5 жыл бұрын
That's gonna be the case with some libraries, however I guess that for Soloist Libraries like CSSS it's much more noticeable than with Ensemble libraries.
@nilstarlight 5 жыл бұрын
@@AlexMoukala might be true. So or so a great Tipp to learn as a beginner who just started 4 months ago. Binge watched your channel. Multiple times. 🤷🏼♂️
@calvin311222913 5 жыл бұрын
Yes. Good libraries pan and reverb themselves. And that's why they are so expensive in the first place lol
@M4T 5 жыл бұрын
The famous less is more
@StarshipTrooper4231 Жыл бұрын
I didn't quite comprehend the part of panning..? Don't pan, pan, pan inside the library? Pan the track? And I never go with a bigger reverb than medium chamber when I work with Orchestral Tools porducts. Completely unessecary imo.
@b1wg_137 5 жыл бұрын
First
@darioborquez8753 5 жыл бұрын
Second xD
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