An Analysis Of Human Smash DI and How To Survive Fox's Up Throw Up Air

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8 жыл бұрын

A summary of the speed of smash DI:
Standard DI:
14-16 SDI per second
Wank Di:
20-24 SDI per second
Burst DI:
??-?? SDI per second
(30ish?) (would need a 240fps camera to test)
Tap BPM can be found here: www.all8.com/tools/bpm.htm
Big shoutout to Kadano, and Magus, as they were the source of a lot of the small details about how melee functions.
I could be wrong on some of the stuff in the video, but I'll keep the description updated, and I'll add annotations to the video as necessary. I may also make a part 2 or a remake if I feel the need.
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Пікірлер: 100

@Golden_Magikarp 8 жыл бұрын

"if you move your right hand up and down quickly a lot you might be able to do this, personaly i'm quite good at this..." ROFL

@bobsaget9894 7 жыл бұрын

Got Karpal tunnel just watching this

@Prilosac 8 жыл бұрын

Dude. Why don't you have more subs. These videos are amazing. Very complete, very informative, and very digestible. I subscribed and will advocate for your channel when people ask me about concepts you have covered. Great work dude.

@zabimaru1000 7 жыл бұрын

This is the video I needed when I was starting out. I had vague understanding of SDI, but this simplifies things while also explaining how it works. Time to actually practice some SDI muscle memory on some moves!

@vaderex1 8 жыл бұрын

Dude, the amount of high quality content you're putting out is insane. Great video again, thank you for making all of these.

@Exl6243 3 жыл бұрын

I just watched a video that had the term "wank di," and I had no idea what it was. Thanks for the explanation!

@bongloiny4314 3 жыл бұрын

These videos are by far the best that cover these subject

@3rdJan 4 жыл бұрын

This is some good shit, perfectly explained, visuals that help make your point, performing it with a handcam... thank you so much!

@cillee997 8 жыл бұрын

dude ur a legend, smash di is such an integral part of high level melee, its nuts

@MrGameAndToy 6 жыл бұрын

You have 100% earned my sub. Amazing content.

@Nahoc 8 жыл бұрын

Great video, incredible that smash players actually use this in real-time. I subbed.

@Bretaigne 7 жыл бұрын

oh hey

@RemixSSBM 7 жыл бұрын

+Bret Hiya

@danielchristensen3657 3 жыл бұрын

Melee players

@auroragqp 8 жыл бұрын

Wonderful video! I really appreciate it. You got a new subscriber :3

@smugcat6938 3 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much! I was having so much difficulty sdi'ing before this

@r0flcopter 6 жыл бұрын

most amazing video ive ever seen

@SrgntLoveGaming 8 жыл бұрын

Awesome, thanks man. Great content.

@grenncandy123 8 жыл бұрын

Damn son these are pretty solid

@Hulka10 8 жыл бұрын

amazing video

@APhishyFish 8 жыл бұрын

Amazing

@TetraShot 8 жыл бұрын

Dude, your videos are fucking great. Keep it up!

@stevensihota1901 6 жыл бұрын

Thank you so much

@jensvide777 4 жыл бұрын

Super good video! You explained everything perfectly! Only thing I would criticize is that the method you used to test the amount of wank SDI-inputs isn't necessarily accurate

@TheDanielradio 5 жыл бұрын

Nice!!

@montesideacc 8 жыл бұрын

good vid. Your voice kind of reminds me of starkiller/carter from bc smash.

@DoomJoy666 6 жыл бұрын

I've been doing up throw shine turnaround uair so they di into my second hit

@cameroncole858 6 жыл бұрын

How do I make it so 20XX only shows the hitboxes and stuff, like in the jigglypuff up air demonstration

@DjaliGoatShow 4 жыл бұрын

I've tried to di out of his up air 1000 times and can't do it, what am I doing wrong.

@chocolope7575 6 жыл бұрын

May PPMD bless you for this video

@danielb7744 8 жыл бұрын

Re 0:54, the effect of ASDI is applied on the first frame of hitstun, not on the last frame of hitlag.

@RemixSSBM 8 жыл бұрын

+Daniel Baggerman Right, but if you're following Kadano's terminology, the input is "on" the last frame of hitlag, which is what I used here. If i used the term "at" then i would have said the first frame of hitstun.

@kevinyoutube8365 8 жыл бұрын

For the lightning fast 2 SDI input, you only need to go 18 degrees I think, not a full 45, right? I think wank DI could be argued to be better than the lightning fast method because with wank, you're guaranteed 1.5 input, whereas with lightning fast, you can miss the timing and not get any SDI input. By the way, loving the videos man I'm really learning a lot.

@RemixSSBM 8 жыл бұрын

Yep, 18 degrees is why its possible to do it double frame perfect or close to it. While wank DI is more consistent, 1.5 SDI isn't enough to escape uair to the side with most characters

@scepkile 7 жыл бұрын

Do you have to hold the c-stick on the very last frame of hitlag for ASDI or can you hold it for the duration of the hitlag and it'll still be registered??

@RemixSSBM 7 жыл бұрын

Yep, doesn't matter what you do before or after. It just checks the C stick position on the last frame (or your control stick, if C stick is neutral)

@MrJ3ly 8 жыл бұрын

wow mate you're a credit to the smash community!/ I think your waveshine combo on peach is totally unrealistic in high level tournament play but the rest of your vids are godlike. Subbed

@RemixSSBM 8 жыл бұрын

I'm glad you like my videos. Not sure why you don't think waveshine combos are viable outside TAS. I think the exact opposite actually. In TAS, you can SDI so much that fox is way too slow to get a second shine, even on peach/link. Meanwhile in human terms of SDI peach/link are very doable. 9 shines is like 30% damage with 0-2 JC shines, with a very reactable window of 29 frames to react to SDI and line up the shine. I feel it's definitely easier than it looks and probably the only reason people don't do it much yet is because there's no good way to practice vs. SDI. Regardless of if you agree or not, glad you've enjoyed the rest of my videos

@MrJ3ly 8 жыл бұрын

I meant the humble crouch cancel, best used by sheik and peach - it's pretty rare to see players flawlessly manage to react to the varying distances without the shined escaping behind the shiner.

@RemixSSBM 8 жыл бұрын

+MrJ3ly You can't crouch cancel mid combo, so all you have to react to is SDI. I'll cover reacting to that in detail in part 2.

@MrJ3ly 8 жыл бұрын

I thought a crouch cancel was just SDI downwards, which is what I mean.. ferociously hard to react to. Looking forward to the video

@RemixSSBM 8 жыл бұрын

+MrJ3ly I'll be covering this in depth in part 2, but crouch cancel != SDI down. SDI down doesn't do anything for shine, but if you are able to get a crouch cancel off, you go much less distance and there's very little hitstun

@antoniobanda9404 7 жыл бұрын

any tips on how to KNOW when to sdi? i can never react and sdi in time ya know? unless i absolutlely KNOW its coming like fox u-throw u-air. help plz

@RemixSSBM 6 жыл бұрын

Unfortunately, no. You have to read it every time, since the longest hitlag is still shorter than we can react to. With time and practice you'll start to learn the timings for certain things, and a lot of times you can even just guess that you might get hit, even if you may not. When it comes to the timing on something like Fox's uthrow uair, it's really hard. I'd recommend paying close attention to their technique each time they do it, and see if you can catch onto their timing

@antoniobanda9404 6 жыл бұрын

Remix, thanks

@jdog_7599 6 жыл бұрын

For SDI, do you have to hit the joystick all the way? What will happen if it is only hit part way?

@RemixSSBM 6 жыл бұрын

SDI is analog, so if you move 85% of the way to the edge, you'll get 85% of an SDI. As long as you get out of the dead zone, you'll get at least some movement. I think the dead zone might end at the 50% mark, though I'm not sure on that.

@chasehayesstandup4253 4 жыл бұрын

Can someone give me the tldr on what to do with my hands? Seems like it dosnt require 6 minutes

@quesote20 7 жыл бұрын

I have this eternal doubt. Does ASDI and SDI sum up? or the distance you can travel with SDI overwrites the ASDI? I heard one time that you couldn't ASDI and SDI to the same side, is that true?

@RemixSSBM 7 жыл бұрын

They do sum up. I believe SDI moves you 6 units, and ASDI moves you 3 units, so if you press a direction during hitlag, and hold it until after the end of hitlag, you will move 9 units in that direction. That second rule you listed doesn't exist

@TastyCarcass 7 жыл бұрын

awesome video! could you explain the technique at 4:00? I thought that the c stick overrides the analog. Does it only override on the last frame of hitstun?

@RemixSSBM 7 жыл бұрын

The C stick only matters on the last frame of hitlag. It does nothing the other frames. Let me know if you still have any questions

@TastyCarcass 7 жыл бұрын

I see, so is the analog stick going up after going right only there to allow for another input of SDI?

@RemixSSBM 7 жыл бұрын

Yep, and preferably you only go to 45 degrees upwards, because if you go full 90 up, you risk getting a DI that doesn't move you horizontally enough to let you escape

@FP-ih1lu 6 жыл бұрын

You said that by smash di'ing falcon knee, you can live 10% longer than if you didn't. I thought smash di just changed your character position slightly while in hitstun, so I can't see how it makes that big of a difference for surviving hits like this. Does it reduce knockback or something?

@RemixSSBM 6 жыл бұрын

+Panda Nope, it just changes position. It might be more like 5℅, idk ,never actually checked what the number exactly is

@dawudrahman4779 6 жыл бұрын

1) At 4:30 how do u get another smashDI from the diagonally up and right direction? I thought u had to pass one of the cardinal directions as shown at 00:36 unless your control stick is at neutral already. 2) For the first smashDI, when you transfer the stick from neutral to a direction, does this direction have to be a notch of the controller? Or can it be any angle in between?

@RemixSSBM 6 жыл бұрын

1) The points on the "cardinal" directions you have to pass are not exactly 90 degrees. Check the blue tick marks on the diagram at 0:37. Passing one of those in the indicated direction is what gives you a new smash DI. 2) It can be anywhere on the controller, outside of the deadzone. Doing it to a cardinal notch though allows you to get your first 2 SDI very quickly, and typically you want SDI to be directly cardinal anyways.

@dawudrahman4779 6 жыл бұрын

Remix / Ok just one more question. Thanks for that response btw it clears up a lot of confusion. Question: For steps 2 and 3 of quarter circle smashDI, do you need to rotate the stick all the way to those 2 notches shown at the end points of the arrows? ( 00:52 ) Or can you just go far enough to pass the blue tick marks shown at 00:37 without reaching all the way to the notch?

@RemixSSBM 6 жыл бұрын

For TAS, it's actually be better to go exactly to the first angle that smash DI can register (the blue tick), but it's hard for humans to be that precise while maintaining speed, so I just use the notches as touch feedback for when I've moved far enough to reach past the blue tick.

@dawudrahman4779 6 жыл бұрын

Remix ohh ok that makes a lot of sense thanks. This was a big help

@IssiBang 8 жыл бұрын

asdi counts as smash DI for one frame then u have to control stick smash di in another frame?

@RemixSSBM 8 жыл бұрын

+IssiBang Ah, sorry if that wasn't clear. When you do the C-stick input doesn't matter, and it doesn't get in the way of control stick SDI. You just have to be holding it by the last frame of hitlag if you want to overwrite the control sticks direction for the ASDI

@HoXanna 7 жыл бұрын

does it matter which direction you smash DI the up air? or does both right or left direction work?

@RemixSSBM 7 жыл бұрын

Assuming the Fox has no aerial drift, they both work. If the Fox realizes you can SDI out of uair, they may start to drift to the side that you last SDI'd to, at which point you should mix it up and SDI the other way, to easily escape the uair. It basically becomes a mixup game, and the fox could even go for single hit uair, in which case SDI up becomes really easy if they mess up, but then if they hit the second hit uair correctly, it doesn't matter what you do. tl;dr: both

@HoXanna 7 жыл бұрын

Cool! Thanks! Great video

@sean4850 7 жыл бұрын

so to smash di fox upair as marth, i wait tell i'm in hitlag from the upair then i mash left and slightly up with analog stick and c stick as i'm getting hit or can i do this preemptively to the attack?

@RemixSSBM 7 жыл бұрын

Mashing the SDI will almost never get you out of Fox's uair. You have to time the input. Marth sometimes only needs a single sideways input on the control stick, so you can either time that input, which is pretty easy, or you can go for the double SDI input as explained in the video, where you press sideways and roll 45 degrees diagonal up (or down) on the next frame. Let me know if you have any more questions about it

@sean4850 7 жыл бұрын

Remix so i press sideways and roll up or down while im holding c stick to the side for asdi aswell?

@RemixSSBM 7 жыл бұрын

+sean Yep.

@sean4850 7 жыл бұрын

+Remix can i preemptively hold c stick to the side and time my input for the control stick sdi?

@RemixSSBM 7 жыл бұрын

+sean Yep

@fartonaut2291 6 жыл бұрын

"Take the BPM shown, divide it by 60, and multiply it by 2" OOOOOoooorr, stay with me here... divide it by 30.

@shmurdy 8 жыл бұрын

so is 2nd hit up air timing, spacing, or both?

@RemixSSBM 8 жыл бұрын

+Minimu5e Both. You have to space the double jump based on puff's percent and DI (DI affects the height) and time the up air after your double jump. Eventually I'll make a video on it, but not sure exactly when.

@R3ap3RGirL 7 жыл бұрын

zero made a video where he said you should sdi fox upair up.. ?

@RemixSSBM 7 жыл бұрын

Personally, I think you should DI it to the side. Hungrybox SDI's up, but I think this is a lazy approach, and its success rate has fallen off recently (watch Smash Summit 4) as Fox players have been getting better and better at up throw up air. At most percents the Fox can place the up air deep enough to where you can't SDI up to escape it, so SDI to the side is preferred

@R3ap3RGirL 7 жыл бұрын

ya that makes sense, ty

@Anytime99 8 жыл бұрын

So which method would be the best to avoid fox's up air as puff?

@RemixSSBM 8 жыл бұрын

if it wasnt clear, press left or right on both sticks and then slide up to diagonally up, while still holding c stick to side. You have to do this really quick. Let me know if you have more questions

@Anytime99 8 жыл бұрын

ok so essentially a quarter circle up motion. does the location of the stick(s) matter dependent on which direction the fox is facing?

@RemixSSBM 8 жыл бұрын

I think a 1/8th circle is probably a bit better, but a quarter circle is probably just as good like 95% of the time. While fox's uair comes out slightly farther behind him, don't worry about this when SDI'ing his uair. You still escape with 2.5 SDI regardless of which side you're on. Even if DI'ing in front of fox allows your character to escape with 1.5 SDI, you still need to mix it up or fox can drift into you making the uair connect, so you need to be capable of 2.5 SDI anyways. TL;DR: doesn't matter which way fox is facing

@Anytime99 8 жыл бұрын

Thanks man!

@dlm766 5 жыл бұрын

dont play puff lol

@myboy_ 3 жыл бұрын

i can not fucking hit this sdi. im in unclepunch using your method, i get 3 sdi on nearly every upair, but i havent escaped the second hit a single time. im getting seriously frustrated

@ayeeitsluke 6 жыл бұрын

i think some of the sdi characteristics are incorrect, or at least contradicts what hax has in his b0xx video

@RemixSSBM 6 жыл бұрын

What doesn't align with what Hax has in his video? Pretty sure both videos are correct

@ayeeitsluke 6 жыл бұрын

So this is the hax b0xx video im talking about kzfaq.info/get/bejne/abhjla9hmZOwcX0.html Assuming hax is correct, you can't sdi on the first frame, but you can on the last frames, not the other way around like you mentioned at 3:22 And the diagram at 1:35 would be incorrect, since you can't move from diagnal to cardinal to get a sdi. You want to start at a cardinal like you have at 4:13

@RemixSSBM 6 жыл бұрын

Both videos are correct I try to use Kadano's terminology of "on" and "at" for inputs, but it's kind of confusing no matter how you word it, since Kadano's terminology isn't widely known. Still, since it's the only clear set of definitions I've seen, and since it was defined by Kadano, I go by that. So, for the way Hax explains it, I'd use the word "at" whereas he uses "on". Regardless of how it's explained, both videos are correct, and what's important is that you only can only SDI 1 time less than the number of hitlag frames. The diagram at 1:35 in my video is correct. It doesn't have an optimal angle for the first smash DI input, because I was explaining a basic technique for SDI. You and Hax are right, that a diagonal to cardinal input does not produce SDI, but that's not what I'm showing in that image, I'm showing a diagonal to diagonal input, which does produce SDI. Your first SDI can be any angle, and while starting at a cardinal is preferred, it's more difficult.

@ayeeitsluke 6 жыл бұрын

ty for the clarifications :D

@IcicleTFL 7 жыл бұрын

Is there a proper way to practice smash DI on 20XX?

@RemixSSBM 7 жыл бұрын

In 20XX v3.02 you can set the CPU to uthrow uair you by pressing R+dpadup. Outside of that, most can be done without 20XX. You don't even need to plug in your controller if you're just trying to practice SDI mash speed, for example. You can do a few other things in game like drop a motion sensor bomb near ledge and up-b into it, wait on peach's castle for the bullet bill to come, side-b into flame walls on Falco target test, and maybe a few others... Is there a specific situation you are looking to practice this for?

@IcicleTFL 7 жыл бұрын

Not in particular, that about answers it. Thanks a bunch!

@grenncandy123 8 жыл бұрын

I give you 1 grenn candy