Anne Boleyn & Catherine Howard. with Gareth Russell.

Рет қаралды 22,580

Күн бұрын

In this episode, I am joined by historian and broadcaster Gareth Russell to discuss the circumstances which led to the executions of Anne Boleyn and, six years later, her cousin Catherine Howard. Their fates may have been the same, an executioners block at the Tower of London, but by comparing and contrasting the events which led up to the scaffold we can learn more about how each got to that point.
Gareth Russell explores the events surrounding the downfall of each of the ill-fated Queens of Henry VIII in this new perspective on a familiar story and reveals a surprising fact...that Henry wrote a play about Anne Boleyn's "sexual misdemeanours" before her trial!
#AnneBoleyn #HenryVIII #CatherineHoward
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About Philippa
Philippa is a Historian and History Event Organiser
Philippa Lacey Brewell lives in Central England and is well respected in her field as a historian and tour guide. She is the owner and founder of British History Tours, a tour company for those who love British History.
Philippa entertains thousands each week with her videos and stories from across the UK and British History. This ability to engage an audience, as well as being an expert in travelling the historical sites of the UK, makes her your perfect guide.

Пікірлер: 91

@ElliotOracle 2 ай бұрын

I could listen to Gareth Russell all day and night. Completely brilliant. 😊

@nicolen.4538 10 ай бұрын

Fascinating interview! Loved it! I agree Henry did not think Anne was guilty, just wanted a solution to get rid of her. If he was a classic narcissist, he simply refused to take responsibility that he was infatuated, obsessed with her. He convinced (most likely) himself that Anne cast a spell on him, purposely manipulated him to pursue her/- causing him to break from Rome to divorce Katherine and marry her. In his mind,?he had to blame her for wreaking havoc, causing divisions in English and Spanish Royal courts and its society (splitting loyalties toward Katherine and Henry and Anne). In reality, if Anne just became his mistress (in a physical sense) from the minute he pursued her, she would not have lost her. head. But then, most likely would never have been the Queen. Henry never really loved her. The man was probably incapable of attaching himself, loving someone in a true sense. It seems to him, he can easily switch his feelings for someone on a “on/off” basis.

@maryw246 Жыл бұрын

I absolutely love Gareth’s passion.

@dukagardiner4280 2 ай бұрын

I have been reading for few years on Henry VIII, and still believe that living under his rule must have been a horrific and terrifying existence

@lisajadoobirsingh4007 2 ай бұрын

Henry 8

@richardpearce1114 Жыл бұрын

Fascinating so many terrific insights into the downfall of Anna Boleyn, the one thing that i think adds to the cocktail of Henry's narcissism and Anne's failure to bear a son are her unfortunate remarks while playing the courtly love game. "Dead men's shoes" was treasonous and she did say it and that i feel could easily have been a tipping point that would enrage Henry and be one storm too many.

@justme-tj3jt 11 ай бұрын

Cromwell needed something other than just adultry to get Anne out of the way. He needed a guilty verdict for treason. Adultry was a Church matter, and she would have been banished and sent to a convent and an anulment would not have been as easy. Henry wanted her gone completly as well as those who supported her in order to save face and also get any children out of the way for the son he wanted. It was a comment that was spun in order to have her executed.

@tesssanders7993 Жыл бұрын

I'm in my 70s now and watched Henry VIII starring Charles Laughton (great movie) and I got my degree in history, reading and watching everything I could find on Henry VIII (just finished Gareth Russell book twice! loved it). I think Catherine was just too young. Poor Catherine wasn't even given a handbook of "Rules of being Queen What you can and cannot do!"' If she'd only had a guiding hand..

@justme-tj3jt 11 ай бұрын

Cathrine was Henry's mid-life crisis and a way to stroke his ego, helped make him feel potent, and desired. She was a pawn of her family and the powerful Buckingham.

@hjahansouz 2 жыл бұрын

Just finished the Young, the Dammed and the Fair. Excellent book!

@juliedurden9479 Жыл бұрын

I am listening to the audiobook version at work and in the car. It is excellent indeed, and very exciting to see the author!

@maryw246 Жыл бұрын

Anne’s downfall rests squarely on the shoulders of Henry, however, the architect of said downfall was Cromwell. Henry neither had the legal skills nor the finesse to orchestrate such a complicated political and judicial farce. I see it as another English King demanding “ Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest (wife) ?

@kayteeart 4 ай бұрын

Just catching up on old videos! Love this one. I’m hearing the section on the British custom of sending pre teens to live with households of friends and family. I just realized the connection! My family still did that in the 20th century! My mother and great aunt were sent young to live with their aunt and great aunt (same person respectively) at the age of about 5-7! I knew this of course but just now made the connection that it was the same phenomenon from Anne and Catherine! From my mother’s retelling of the experience, I can only imagine how disruptive and emotionally impactful that was … for my mother, it was quite devastating. She took it in her stride though and understood the “duty” call. Great interview as always!

@BritishHistory 4 ай бұрын

Thank you Karmen and thank you for sharing your family’s story. x

@kayteeart 4 ай бұрын

@@BritishHistory great interview!

@maryloumawson6006 Жыл бұрын

Oh, WELL DONE! I've have had this question for years and years about the reason why Anne's execution was conducted by an imported French expert swordsman, and Catherine was not accorded the same consideration. Some people seem to think it's due to Henry's former devotion to Anne, and proves he really loved her. I have always thought that complete balderdash. But I could only speculate as to the true reason. Even when it is mentioned, it is never as a comparison to Catherine, only given as proof of his regard for Anne. So I was very excited to hear the question, and appreciate the historian's efforts to answer it. I must admit, I never thought about something so mundane and pragmatic as the weather, but I agree it is a likely factor. My own idea runs in the direction, as you also suggested, of Cromwell. Cromwell was a political operator, and a monarchist. He would have been aware of the "optics" of killing a Queen. He and Henry had upended the kingdom, the Church and the succession so that Henry could replace his queen with this woman. I think Cromwell wanted to show "proper deference" to the queen he had made, in order to legitimize his action. No one had ever executed a queen before. So he made proper plans for the result he knew was forthcoming.

@woowah32 Жыл бұрын

Yes, Catherine was basically a court slapper.

@redemptivepete 11 ай бұрын

Catherine was basically an abused child!

@justme-tj3jt 11 ай бұрын

Agreed. Once they had executed a Queen the other was easy.

@alayneperrott9693 3 ай бұрын

Great interview! Gareth Russell is always interesting. Not only is he very much in command of all the sources and their reliability, but he invariably has original insights to offer.

@edwinatonna9703 Жыл бұрын

I was so thrilled to come across this riveting podcast of Gareth Russell’s , although I’m not a historian, I love Tudor history. I’ve always had a belief that, although I don’t think Henry was a psychopath. I strongly believe he was a narcissist. with everything I’ve read and watched I’ve never heard this mentioned before so I was thrilled to hear that Gareth was of the same opinion. I jumped for joy when I heard this and can’t wait to buy his books. I was also enthralled to hear Anne Boleyn’s earlier Irish roots from one of his recent podcast . A million thanks Gareth 👏

@kayteeart 4 ай бұрын

This was one of my favorite interviews! So many light bulbs went off! Thanks for the thought provoking questions and responses!

@justme-tj3jt 11 ай бұрын

Of course, Henry VIII wrote this play. I think he wrote it to convince himself and others of Anne's guilt.

@Theturtleowl Ай бұрын

I wonder if the play survives, even if it is just a part of it. Most likely the biggest pity party ever put to paper.

@lisaamber1566 2 жыл бұрын

Great interview. Many thanks. I hadn’t really thought about the differences between the two wives. I think the person who brought anne down was henry due to his narcissism. I had no idea he’d written a play about her misdemeanours.

@YouTube4me 9 ай бұрын

I believe Katherine’s cheating truly angered and humiliated Henry. He gave her a quick ending without the same respect he gave to Anne Boleyn. He wanted Katherine to be gone quickly as possible.

@JJMarie3509 Жыл бұрын

This was a great discussion. I would love to hear more comparing the falls of Anne Boleyn and Catherine Howard. Also more about what the psychiatrist had to say about Henry!

@marshaprice8226 Ай бұрын

Comparing Anne and Henry’s relationship to Titanic’s voyage is a great analogy! I completely agree that Anne and Henry did not have “one of history’s great love stories”.

@Dee-mj3pu 22 күн бұрын

Love?? Hahahahaha!!

@lisawatts Жыл бұрын

I never really thought about that fact that Anne would have needed a lady in waiting to "help" her commit adultery. And there isn't one, yet Catherine has lady rochford helping her... I just don't understand why she would have helped Catherine knowing if it was ever discovered that they would be in serious trouble.

@NickMaybrick Жыл бұрын

Who knows? Maybe Lady Rochford had a crush on the winsome Tommy Culpeper and was carried away, living vicariously through Catherine. It seems crazy after Anne Boleyn but Anne wasn't really beheaded for adultery and the aristocrats at Henry's court probably knew that. Especially Lady Rochford. She was so close to events, being married to George.

@glen7318 2 ай бұрын

@@NickMaybrick Lady R seems to have been more than a little crazy, or perhaps she helped Katherine because she would then have a hold over her when Henriy died and K was a well to do widowed queen

@lelanixon3248 3 ай бұрын

Wonderful interview! Really gave me a fresh look and insight on a subject I thought I knew.

@pinkvivi9345 Жыл бұрын

Amazing interview. I could listen to Gareth Russell talk history all day long. I’m regards to Anne’s method of execution, I’m wondering if it had deep meaning for both Anne and Henry. Perhaps Anne’s education and grasp of French culture and language, which attracted Henry, as a common thread in their relationship… I think he was sending a message of some sorts. And he also wanted something dramatic too. Any thoughts?

@paulinemegson8519 Ай бұрын

Well, it actually WAS merciful, inasmuch as the method of death CAN be a mercy. A sword was clean and quick when wielded by a good swordsman. The axe tho was often wielded by someone with no expertise, and often very BADLY. Margaret Pooles execution is a case in point. It was horrific with this middle aged woman being pursued around the gallows by the axeman as he swiped at her!!

@brittany2372 2 ай бұрын

Absolutely fascinating! I never thought that Anne did anything of which she was accused, but I had wondered if Henry believed any of it. I usually sided on "probably not", but now I'm convinced. This really puts things into perspective! And I've never heard of the murder plot part of Anne's downfall! Young and Damned and Fair had been on my to-be-read list for a while. I believe it's just moved to the top! Thank you for doing this video!

@BritishHistory 2 ай бұрын

You’re so welcome Brittany and I’m really glad you appreciated the perspective. I hoped it would clarify some things. Oh yes, you will love ‘Young & Damned & Fair’. Gareth Russell is an incredible historian and brilliant writer.

@ChewingGums 2 жыл бұрын

Another really interesting listen thanks as always Philippa :)

@pbohearn Жыл бұрын

I don’t think Henry necessarily thought Anne deserved to die, but rather he greatly wished to be rid of her; he was done with her. She was already living on borrowed time, having been granted more time because she got pregnant. When the miscarriage occurred, he felt he was once again saddled with a woman who could only give him dead babies, or females, but he was in a tough spot, having gone through an extremely messy and unpopular divorce with his first wife, who never acknowledged its legitimacy for the rest of her life. it would hardly be a popular political move to seek to divorce now his second wife, so he had to be rid of her. There was no other way around it. He did not want to keep her. He couldn’t divorce her. He had to end her life. Enter Cromwell.

@BritishHistory Жыл бұрын

An annulment, however, had been completed before her execution and so he could have sent her to an abbey (we know they would go over the next 4 years but they didn’t). Also, we must not forget that to kill a queen was not a thing. This wasn’t an accepted even if appalled solution. It shocked people in the country and abroad.

@terryceulers3140 3 ай бұрын

Loved this!! Great discussion.

@RobinLynnGriffith Жыл бұрын

I had to pause this and just make a comment I'm somewhere around the 17 mark. He's a narcissist of course he's going to say those kind of things 🥰❤️

@rosanneifyoulike9546 2 жыл бұрын

What an awesome segment 🇺🇸❤️🍎 Thank you as Always

@michelleh8425 Жыл бұрын

Garett thank you for your views. I’ve read a lot of Anne and reached the conclusion that she did indeed look on her relationship with Henry was ordained and not some great love affair. She could not get away from him without damage to her and her family- so she made the most of a dangerous situation. And I do believe Henry had more wrong than narcissistic behavior.

@Dee-mj3pu 22 күн бұрын

It was just business (like the Mafia).

@JenniferA.Minnear-Salaza-jb4qf Жыл бұрын

I think before the execution was considered: Anne had maybe answered to him such question of how in theory, she'd 'like to go', and said that: was why he got the special executioner.

@lisagagnon1747 4 ай бұрын

Outstanding Discussion, Thank You!✨

@rycoli 2 жыл бұрын

Oh how wonderful! Just finished Titanic. My fav is YDAF 😉 Love your writing Gareth!!

@wednesdayschild3627 5 ай бұрын

Best quote: it was a great love story, just like titanic...I think Anne may have went to an astrologer and was told she would have a boy and that is why she thought God wanted her there. Imo Anne was a bit narcissistic too. Henry was certainly much worse.

@doriamurriola7188 Ай бұрын

She was narcissistic and self serving, but he fits the psychopatic/malignant narcissit boxes and he was king so he was much worse, but she enabled his madness to benefit herself, the whole tyndale book that said he was unanswerable to anybody, only to God and he took that advice to heart and became even worse, and once she was no longer useful for him, he vanquished her ruthlessly, she was playing with fire, it was just matter of time

@merylmel 3 ай бұрын

Thank you. Very informative and entertaining.

@bodacioustness5054 4 ай бұрын

Great interview. And, narcissism? Sure. But important to remember that he suffered a brain injury before killing Anne. That would have really negatively impacted any existing personality issues or created new.

@gabz9977 2 жыл бұрын

That was excellent! Adding YDAF to my to read list. xx

@rosemarygregory9458 2 ай бұрын

The hand of Cromwell seems to be missing from the aftermath of Anne's execution when they had to stuff her corpse into an arrow chest because no provision had been made for a casket. Does this possibly suggest that the great planner was not responsible for the swordsman? Hmmmm.

@NickMaybrick Жыл бұрын

Does anyone know exactly what Anne's uncle meant when he called her "a great night crow" ? Is it what it sounds? A noisy, pain in the arse? Or could it be like a fish out of water, a misfit; out of place?

@BritishHistory Жыл бұрын

Hi Nick, thank you for the question. I’ve not actually heard of this, where was the reference for this and i’ll find out.

@NickMaybrick Жыл бұрын

@@BritishHistory Thanks for the prompt response. I don't know the original source. According to Allison Weir, David Starkey and Claire Ridgeway, the Duke of Norfolk called her "a great night crow" in the early 1530s. They all speak as if it was an insult which it probably was, but even so, I'm curious to know. Like was it a common way to describe somebody or a description her uncle just came up with?

@MEAJJEKL 10 ай бұрын

@NickMaybrick it was a dubious nod to her very dark complexion. "Brunette" in that century (and as recent as the 1930s as per a 1937 Webster's dictionary) meant a woman with a dark brown complexion of skin, particularly in the face. It described her skin, as she was "swarthy" (Germanic word meaning "black") and brown of face, moreso than her contemporaries who bore a generally lighter skintone than hers. I had heard of that comment being made about her before, but I don't know why I thought it was Wolsey who said it 😅 Anne's dark complexion and features are famous to this day, albeit inaccurately portrayed...

@cindyschell6870 2 ай бұрын

I believe that Gareth thinks it was ultimately Henry himself who brought down Anne. And i agree; Cromwell could only do what Henry gave permission for. And I don't believe that you could convince Henry VIII to do anything he didn't ultimately want.

@TheLucyluwho 5 ай бұрын

31:36 I’m curious if Henry didn’t mean like a physical actual poisoning. Maybe he was talking about poisoning their minds in a way of having them being head over heels hanging on her every word in the way of her ideas and ideal. At the time what she’s been accused of her “loose morals”

@michellehaynes2429 3 ай бұрын

By dancing Anne by saying she plotted to kill the King it also throws doubt on Elizabeth’s parentage. Making clear the way for another heir.

@Min61449 3 ай бұрын

This was the first time a Queen of England was to be executed. The authorities wanted to make sure this was not a botched job. This would have made Anne’s scandalous death even more outrageous if execution went badly and a worse horror story ensued. Six years later when Catherine met her end the death of a queen by execution had now already occurred. Catherine declined a trial ( thank you Gareth, I didn’t know this before reading your book) and was found guilty by Act of Attainder. Henry, when he was finished with someone, wanted them gone ASAP. Out of sight out of mind. Henry wanted to move forward with the disposal of Catherine. Hence no delay for a French swordsman. My humble opinion.

@wednesdayschild3627 5 ай бұрын

The reason I think Queen Anne went to an astrologer is the Ester story. The astrologer told her she would have a boy. Anne sees herself as the righteous queen Ester and Catherine as the rebellious Queen Vashti. They think that the rebellious Vashti had no sons. Ester allegedly had a boy that followed King ahasuerus.

@gonefishing167 3 ай бұрын

Great video, thank you. I think Henry wanted rid of Anne. She’d had a girl first ( he was sort of o.k with that and it’s said he doted on Elizabeth ) but , then Anne had a miscarriage followed by the second one bought on by , I’d say, the jousting accident . It’s said Anne was feeling ‘uncomfortable’ by then anyway. Her position demanded she give him a boy. In Henry’s eyes she was going down the path of Catherine of Aragon. No way could he admit any fault and he’d already started dallying with Jane Seymour. She was also younger than Anne. If at first you don’t succeed, try, try again. As for Catherine Howard, she was a silly girl who had ‘needs’ that Henry, by that time, couldn’t live up to. That ulcer must have been awful and surely made ‘performing’ difficult. 🙏🙏🙏👵🇦🇺

@wendychavez5348 3 ай бұрын

Cromwell is the one he holds most responsible for Anne's downfall, and i tend to agree.

@csmtcqueen Ай бұрын

This is what I think too that Henry is a narcissist (I used this term on a previous video). First historian Gareth Russell to use that term that I have heard.

@blackwidowspider9852 4 ай бұрын

Catherine Howard by committing adultery it is treason Because her child if she had it during this time would have been questioned who was it? Secondly anne Boleyn did not give him a son he did not want to try again he was impatient So they got rid of her !

@otma2011 3 ай бұрын

It is almost universally accepted now that the woman in that portrait you used as cover is NOT Catherine Howard...

@Dee-mj3pu 22 күн бұрын

Anne Boleyn witnessed what Henry would do to his long-time wife from Royal stock (Catherine). Refused to heed the warning!!

@debraturner4559 11 ай бұрын

Feel much sympathy for Catherine Howard, who though privileged, never had anyone to guide and watch her back. Her beheading makes one hate Henry VIII all the more, who'd only be a footnote in history if not for his messy personal life including how horrible he was to his 2 young daughters, scaring them both for life in their emotional life. Anne, I don't feel as much sympathy for since she with her ambitious family ruthlessly played the court love game to advance their positions, but lost because she wasn't as clever at it as she thought and her prize was a narcissist absolute king who wasn't going to be any kinder or loyal to her than his first wife, boyhood friends whom he executed or his own children.

@alexandramil4067 2 ай бұрын

Henry the 8th, according to the interviewee. Henry was the common denominator in both executions…

@SusieStanton-vf4he 3 ай бұрын

Jane Boleyn, George’s wife (AB’s brother.

@ArtbyKatina 3 ай бұрын

Henry and Cromwell, I know this is a year late and I’m not in the draw, 🤷🏻‍♀️

@ralphl7643 3 ай бұрын

I wonder why Henry married four English women instead of foreign royalty as was the norm (except for his grandmother Woodville). Because they were there?

@BritishHistory 3 ай бұрын

He did have a tendency to chase one of his wife’s ladies in waiting, that’s for sure.

@paulinemegson8519 Ай бұрын

Because English brides were relatively disposable. He couldn’t just decide to execute a foreign princess, without risking war. Note, BOTH foreign brides, Katherine of Aragon, and Anne of Cleves, were put aside, not disgraced and basically bought off tho Katherine’s situation worsened because she refused to bow to Henry’s will.

@erichstocker8358 3 ай бұрын

The issues with sword and axe beheadings let to Dr. Guillotin to invent a more humane method of execution. I guess Louis XIV would need to speak with Ann Boleyn to see if it was more humane.

@thepaulaec Жыл бұрын

Wonderful discussion. Garret believes Cromwell was responsible for Anne Boylens death

@BritishHistory Жыл бұрын

Thank you. I’m so glad you enjoyed it and thank you for taking the time to comment. - Philippa

@ellenyoung8283 Жыл бұрын

I got the strong impression Gareth felt Henry was directly responsible for Anne's death and knew she was innocent Cromwell was Henry's the Kings man and followed his whims and commands.

@hollycourtney221 Жыл бұрын

@@ellenyoung8283 Agreed!

@janismathis1020 7 ай бұрын

Henry

@janismarsh3232 10 ай бұрын

King Henry is responsible for the death of Queen Ann.

@Dee-mj3pu 22 күн бұрын

Anne Boleyn was no match for Henry. Silly girl!!

@jardon8636 3 ай бұрын

could you do a video about agnes tilney , 2nd duchess of norfolk... daughter.. Lady Katherine Howard, Countess of Bridgewater married twice... and her 2 children the *rice dynasty* Agnes Rice had a much-publicised affair with William Stourton, 7th Baron Stourton, and in defiance of the rights of his widow and children, she inherited much of the Stourton estates after his death in 1548. She later married Sir Edward Baynton, and had children with both William and Edward.

@paulinemegson8519 Ай бұрын

Simple. Henry wanted rid of Anne to marry the next in line and he wasn’t going to take her word that she’d leave quietly, AND she was smart, so execution seemed expedient. Catherine tho was careless….and let’s be honest, she was a child who had been used and abused her whole life….and she got caught out in her infidelity. SHE really hit Henry where he lived tho, his “male pride” so she was NEVER going to get away with what she did poor girl. As to using the swordsman for Anne, Henry was very keen on getting rid of her but with plausible denial as to his responsibility, keeping him as the untouched, regal sovereign who HAD to do this in spite of his own feelings….”see I gave her the honour of a French swordsman, in spite of her plotting and cuckolding of her King” whereas Catherine, he hated plain and simple….she humiliated him FOR REAL, and for that he just wanted her DEAD.

@jkgannon1049 Ай бұрын

I think the swordsman was called for 2 reasons, one for a public display of Henry's 'mercy'. The other (and here this may just be wishful thinking) it was either Cromwell &/or Henry's nod to Anne's innocence, whereas Henry's anger toward Catherine Howard dictated she must suffer. Question: At a Beefeater led tour the Tower, the Beefeater said Henry ordered Catherine's corpse covered with lye so as to alter it in an effort to deny her entrance into Heaven. It was stated it was a popular belief at the time. He also said Catherine was physically beaten by Henry. I have never read or heard those two pieces of info anywhere else. The Victorian era opening of the resting places in St Peter's Ad Vincula doesn't seem to mention lye being used on Catherine's corpse, although I've no idea if one could determine that in those days.

@paulinemegson8519 20 күн бұрын

@@jkgannon1049 yes quicklime WAS used on at least one of the bodies that were disinterred(or at least the space where they WERE placed) from St Peter Ad Vincula during the Victorian era as part of the renovations.

@jkgannon1049 16 күн бұрын

@@paulinemegson8519 Thank you