Ape Answers 002: Off Center Fed Dipole Distinctions (OCFD)

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TheSmokinApe

TheSmokinApe

2 ай бұрын

Ape Answers is a short format video series where we answer Ham Radio related questions from viewers.
In this video, we cover some questions that were asked on my videos. Whether you're a beginner or an experienced user, we've got you covered with detailed explanations and solutions to common issues. Tune in to get your questions answered!
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Пікірлер: 66
@gfodale
@gfodale 2 ай бұрын
I like the new format. Just don't stop the old format. You have been a wealth of information on the technical end that we can count on for good information. I may deviate a bit from time to time, but your info is solid. Much appreciation and respect.
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
Thanks gfodale. I don't plan to change any of the old stuff, I get asked the same questions ofent which is understandable, so I wanted a way to share be able to share answers with a wider audience. Glad you like the video and thank you for watching 👍
@temporarilyoffline
@temporarilyoffline 2 ай бұрын
Dropping The Knowledge!
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
Thanks TO 👍
@WECB640
@WECB640 2 ай бұрын
Very well done son. Keep the lessons rolling. 73
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
Thanks Hollywood 👍
@MikeN2MAK
@MikeN2MAK 2 ай бұрын
It’s nice to see the OCFD getting some love. I like using them but also need to learn more about them.
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
I do like them and hope to get a build done at some point, just a bunch of stuff on the list. Hopefully soon...
@Bdub1952
@Bdub1952 2 ай бұрын
I once had acres and acres of land and at the suggestion of a friend I built a 160 meter full wave loop. It was a worthwhile project, the loop really delivered the DX. I'm back in the city now and employ a Rybakov (4:1 UNUN), a 135' EF (9:1 UNUN), and an OCFD (4:1 Balun). All three work well, and have their own plusses and minuses.
@bassmanjr100
@bassmanjr100 2 ай бұрын
I'm the one who asked the first question. So, would you recommend the loop? An 80m skyloop may be an option. I don't have much interest in 160m. How did you get the loop antenna in the air? How high? I am trying to pick between long end fed random, OCF dipole and a loop. End feed seems easiest due to putting the connection by the house.
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
I’ve been using a Rybakov style antenna for a few months now and love it 👍
@Bdub1952
@Bdub1952 2 ай бұрын
@@bassmanjr100 Thanks for asking. I lived on a hillside with some deep ravines and I supported two corners of the delta loop with 2 10' chain link fence rails stacked on each other. Elevation below the loop was admittedly variable. Not really ideal. The feed point was at my ham shack above the detached garage. If I had to choose between my 135' EF and the OCFD, I'd choose the EF, in spite of it requiring a tuner.
@Bdub1952
@Bdub1952 2 ай бұрын
@@TheSmokinApe I've been shocked how well the Rybakov gets out to Europe from Idaho. I've done a few side by side comparisons and it smokes the EF and the OCFD with DX multihops. And such a small footprint. Low angle radiation really is a thing, hi, hi. 73, and thanks so much for what you do.
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
Hey Bdub, I have to say I agree. I have been blown away with the CaHRtenna Poseidon, very similar to a Rybakov, and it's ability to get DX. I'm sure part of it is the favorable conditions with Cycle 25 but the easy of setup, small footprint and simple design can't be beat. Thanks for watching the videos, glad to hear you like them 👍
@BigJohnsHamShack
@BigJohnsHamShack 2 ай бұрын
Excellent format! Love what you’re doing!
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
Thanks BJHS 👍
@kc8wvg
@kc8wvg 2 ай бұрын
A very good explanation of the OCF dipole. Due to my lot size I have been using a 66' Wndom in an inverted vee for several years. It has served me well on 80-10m. Thanks for doing this type of videos. KC8WVG 73
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
Thanks KC8WVG 👍
@KK6USYHamRadioAdventures
@KK6USYHamRadioAdventures 2 ай бұрын
Great info Ape, most just roll over the fine points
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
Thanks Chuck 🍻👍
@davidwilcox9110
@davidwilcox9110 28 күн бұрын
I used a 40 meter commercial off center fed dipole for one reason: there were two trees in my front yard 70’ apart and a right angle feed to my upstairs shack was right at the 1/3-2/3 portion of the antenna. So it fit between the trees and the coax feed came straight into my shack. I used a tuner on 30 meters but the other bands were matched quite well. It was not objectionable to my wife and worked well until we moved a few years later.
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 28 күн бұрын
That's awesome David 👍
@MrMudsHamRadioRadioTime
@MrMudsHamRadioRadioTime 2 ай бұрын
I like pictures so I will give you a 👍. Excellent job Ape!
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
Thanks Mr Mudz 🍻
@bassangler73
@bassangler73 2 ай бұрын
Cool series you got going Ape!
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
Thanks BA 👍
@James-ci3lx
@James-ci3lx Ай бұрын
You can feed a half wave dipole anywhere along its length. The feedpoint impedance is lowest in the center, and highest at the ends. If it fed with coax, there will generally be a mismatch and therefore reflected power. The main issue is that coax is lossy. At low HF frequencies losses are small. Something to remember (this can be found in the ARRL Antenna book) - an antenna does not have to be resonant to radiate well. When we say an antenna is "resonant", we are inferring that reactances cancel out on the antenna and the feedpoint impedance becomes totally resistive. This does not infer that the feedpoint will have a perfect match with coax, and with a half wave dipole there is a a 1.5:1 mismatch at resonance. Does this matter? No. Losses will be a fraction of a dB and undetecable to the receiving station. Design issues are mostly concerned with feed lines and feed points. An OCF dipole works extremely well when fed with balanced feedline, which is lossless at HF, despite seeing very high VSWR levels. It makes a great multi-band antenna (HF) with a minmum of cheaply sourced materials. Here's a tip to help understand what's going on. Visualise a halfwave sine wave superimposed on the wire. This helps determine the feedpoint impedance. An OCF dipole does not need to be resonant on any frequency, and works on any HF band, provided you use balanced feeders. These feeders are high impedance, therefore high voltage/low current which keeps I squared R losses to a minimum. Their velocity factor is also close to 100%. You must use a tuner at the transmitter end, preferably a high end tuner containing a roller inductor and proper balun and balanced outputs. The reflected power is not "lost", but travels up and down the feedline, and because of the low losses, pretty much most of the energy will be radiated by the antenna. I used a simple OCF doublet way back when, and had excellent results with it, especially on QRP (5 watts or less). There are various designs of the OCF dipole using different proportions, but generally the two thirds/one third point works well. You can determine the radiation pattern using popular free software. The general rules about installation height and ground conditions, porximity to metal structures and objects still apply. I construct HF antennas with cheap insulated speaker wire, using the wire for both feedline and radiator, and whatever I find for spreaders. This arrangement will allow a bit of power because of the high impedance, so it saves a few bucks on expensive high grade coax and connectors.
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe Ай бұрын
I think we are on the same page, thank you for the details 👍
@WR3ND
@WR3ND 2 ай бұрын
Thank you, sir! I appreciate it. Cheers. That inverted L configuration you mention gives me some more ideas to play around with too. That's always a good thing... (just don't ask my wife about it). 🍻
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
Haha, good luck with the antenna 👍
@robertmeyer4744
@robertmeyer4744 2 ай бұрын
nice job. a lot of end fed with a counter poise can be a off set center fed. just depends how you look at it. most do not count the counter poise. but it is part of the antenna system. solar weather crazy. getting buffering on internet a lot lately during the day. even noticed the GPS lock in car nav system was off the outher day. ham bands been messed up. farmers having trouble planting crops with GPS needing a good lock for precise seed planting. getting high noise 80/160 meters making un usable in NY for me. this is common . their is a random wire center fed. that uses a 9:1 Balun . still needs tuner. same wire lengths just 2 of them. still prone to common mode current. have not tried that yet. Walt made one with speaker wire and worked great . the trouble I had with off set center fed di pole was tunning. and keeping feed line at right angle to antenna. 73's
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
Yeah, those flares really messed things up 👍
@robertmeyer4744
@robertmeyer4744 2 ай бұрын
@@TheSmokinApe waiting for 11 meters open back up. big JEEM on 11 meters ! I herm his area to NY before. heat up that green toroid in 11 meters SSB 12 watts .
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
@@robertmeyer4744 haha, he is all in on the 11
@DaDitDa
@DaDitDa 2 ай бұрын
Indeed, a random wire with counterpoise is essentially a random OCF dipole.
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
Yeah, they are pretty much the same 👍
@fm71450
@fm71450 2 ай бұрын
Dear Ape, As always time very well spend watching/listening to your videos. Thank You. FM KQ4IXD
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
Thanks FM, glad you like the videos.
@DonzLockz
@DonzLockz 2 ай бұрын
Good stuff Apeman. I like this new series. I was just looking at a VK seller for an OCFD and may buy it for my QTH. I asked him for a pic of the toe-roid and he sent me a pic.... I need to show it to you. Dual core, both with different windings. May send you the pic on Discord but just don't share it just yet as I'd need to ask for his permission. I think you'll be interested to see it. It's new to me anyway. :)
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
Thanks for sending the pics over Don 👍
@James-ci3lx
@James-ci3lx Ай бұрын
Try making your own! It's cheap and works great.
@dandypoint
@dandypoint 2 ай бұрын
Good video of a complex subject! I prefer single band antennas and have several. Actually I prefer single band dipoles broadside on the direction I want to work. A good Yagi may be a S-unit better but is much more costly and takes a lot more effort. I have had them and they work but the dipoles do almost as good. Regardless of the antenna, no one antenna does it all! I like fan dipoles as they give single band performance off one coax. My 20/10 meter dipoles are not much more effort to build than a single dipole. Trying to do a 40/20/10 fan dipole takes more patience but the results give me excellent results. I use spacers between the dipoles so all the dipoles are broadside to the same direction. Since I cut my antenna for the CW band, my 40 dipole covers 15, but the pattern is not broadside as with the halfwave dipoles. I frequently hang a temporary 15 meter dipole broadside on Europe for DX contests. All halfwave horizontal antennas will have essentially the same pattern. They are resonant and can be fed anywhere. Center fed presents less problems but OFC can give easy multiband coverage. The transformer ratio and location varies and are a compromise to accommodate the various bands. If coax is good and inherent loss is small, the built in tuner in most radios can fix a lot of mistakes. Height above ground determines the peak radiation angle for a horizontal antenna. Usually the lobe is rather broad between the 3 dB points, for moderate heights. Higher antennas have multiple lobes which results in deeper nulls and sharper lobes. Great for extreme DX, not so much for everyday use.
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
Hey DP, thanks for the insightful comment. I do agree a dipole is hard to beat.
@James-ci3lx
@James-ci3lx Ай бұрын
A 3 element yagi will give you less than 1 S-unit of gain over a simple dipole. Not worth the money IMO. You can get what's called a log-periodic antenna for HF, these are big monsters that cost a king's ransom. If you're serious DXer or contester it would be a good investment.
@dandypoint
@dandypoint Ай бұрын
@@James-ci3lx yes you are about right. The two element Yagi gives the most gain at about 4 or 5 dB over a dipole. To get even 3 dB more gain you have to double the number of elements and the boom. Adding one element does not do much after the first parasitic element. I think the log parasitic arrays are not for the serious contesters. They are just broad banded with not enough gain compared to mono banders. I think of guys like W3LPL who have really super stations. I have visited him and he has given many presentations on Contest and DX antennas. Myself I am happy to work 1000 QSOs in a DX contest and 100 plus countries on two or three bands with my dipoles. I have had 6 element 10 meter Yagis and 4 element 20 meter Yagis at 70 feet and that was a lot of work plus a lot of expense. I have just about as good luck with the dipoles now. Last time I did a 10 meter contest with Yagis I could not rotate them fast enough and decided three dipoles on a switch would do it faster even if I gave up a couple S units!
@slappomatthew
@slappomatthew 2 ай бұрын
I’m currently running a 80m ocfd with a balun designs 4:1 balun and a atu-100 tuner. The antenna works well even though feed point is only 22’ high with ends tapered down slightly. I would love to be able to dial it in better but I don’t know how to adjust it.
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
You would need to measure both sides to determine the ratio from Element to Ground leg and then when adjusting add or remove the same ratio of wire 👍
@James-ci3lx
@James-ci3lx Ай бұрын
Probably the best thing you can do is get the antenna up to at least a quarter wave on your operating frequency, which in this case would be 20 meters, or 66 feet. A good bit of the energy is coupling to ground. Adjusting the lengths won't help much in this situation. Also make sure you have a good quality balun, not an el-cheapo from across the pacific.
@MacksCurley
@MacksCurley 2 ай бұрын
A dipole antenna has a centre feed point impedance less than 50 Ohms and the legs of the dipole are fixed. How do you increase the impedance at the feed point to match the 50 Ohm transmission line? Why is the impedance of the HAM radio typically 50 Ohms.?
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
A dipole mounted 1/2 wave above ground has a feedpoint impedance of about 73 ohns. You can adjust this by changing the length of the legs or raising or lowering the antenna. 50 ohms is a good compromise impedance for low loss and maximum power.
@MacksCurley
@MacksCurley 2 ай бұрын
@@TheSmokinApe If the antenna was fed slightly off centre would the feed point impedance increase? Is 50 Ohms the output impedance a radio's RF amplifier?
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
Yes and the impedance of most radios is 50 ohm
@timmc135
@timmc135 2 ай бұрын
I'd appreciate advice regarding HT rechargeable batteries. I have TYT TH-350 (LB-75L) batteries that will not fully recharge and deplete very quickly. Any suggestions? Thanks and 73! Tim VE3TCS
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
It’s probably time for new batteries, sorry to be the bearer of bad news
@timmc135
@timmc135 2 ай бұрын
tnx! I was afraid of that. Very quick reply noted and appreciated.
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
good luck with it 👍
@404aladdin9
@404aladdin9 2 ай бұрын
Is there a radio good for listening to police calls?
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
Yes. But the particular radio will depend on the band your police use, whether they use trunking or not and if they use encryption. Your best bet is to check out Zip Scanners, they have a database that will tell what is needed for your area 👍
@404aladdin9
@404aladdin9 2 ай бұрын
Thank you
@VeteranInThePhilippines-uy6uc
@VeteranInThePhilippines-uy6uc 2 ай бұрын
So you said you don't really like fan dipole are you saying you don't really like the dx commander because it is basically a fan dipole put up vertical direction
@TheSmokinApe
@TheSmokinApe 2 ай бұрын
Hey VTP. So, its not that I don't like fan dipoles, I'm just not a fan of them... tuning them can be difficult and the elements do cause interactions with each other. When I look at a DXC, I see a fan vertical monopole and not a dipole. It's a muilt-element vertical with a ground plane for capacitive coupling to Earth. Given the vertical is good for low angle take off, which is good for DX contacts, I think the compromise of multi-element interaction is more than acceptable. Also, with the DXC you do not have the height above ground issue I covered in the video.
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