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Are ARCHAEOLOGICAL DATING METHODS accurate? | QUESTION TIME

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The Prehistory Guys

The Prehistory Guys

Күн бұрын

LIVE - Thursday 20th October, 2022 at 8:00pm BST
We answer a question from our Patreon member Simon Caulfield: "Are the current methods of dating entirely accurate or is there potential for certain structures to be older or indeed younger?" It's a great question - and we hope to do it justice as well as illuminating a few of the nuances of archaeological dating techniques along the way.
If you'd like a chance of having your own question answered by Michael and Rupert in a future show, please leave it in the comments below. (Not in the live chat during this show). Please bear in mind a few guidelines to improve the chances of your question being considered:
1. While providing a bit of context is good, please ensure that the essential question is distilled down to 70 characters or less so that it can form the title of the KZfaq show.
2. Try to bear in mind what sort of question might have appeal for a general interested audience. Esoteric or obscure subject matters probably won't help the click-through rate!
3. Play to our strengths, if possible. Anthropology questions are a bit outside our remit and - of course - the question must be about prehistory.
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Пікірлер: 44
@BeforeCaledonia
@BeforeCaledonia Жыл бұрын
Rupert/Michael, I have just completed three films on Earth-House/Souterrains, they are supposed to be Iron Age cellars but two of these sites have Neolithic rock art incorporated into them. Thanks for the shout out, it is much appreciated, Martin.
@abisu5273
@abisu5273 Жыл бұрын
Great new format. Had to watch Eric Morcambe's immortal delivery of "I'm playing all the right notes, but not necessarily in the the right order" 😊. I think you meant Accelerator Mass Spectrometer.
@doculab3d
@doculab3d Жыл бұрын
QUESTION TIME: Why do earthworks in America have the same form/shape as in the UK? Massive circular outer ditch and inner bank, with gateways solstice/equinox aligned. Some with an interior mound, others with parallel embankments 120'+ wide, miles long leading to a henge. I'm mostly referring to Adena/Hopewell in the Ohio Valley, but there's also timber circles, or wood henges from Louisiana to New York. Megalith Passages in New England. Standing stones and stone box grave cist in the Cumberland Valley. There's Red-haired, plaid-weavers buried in a bog in Florida. The polished greenstone celts are found across eastern North America. Sound familiar? I'm just curious what you two have to say about it, if anything. I've devoted too many years to understanding the monument builders to come up blank. I need an outside perspective for a sanity check. 'Standing With Stones', and your channel is excellent, by the way.
@AmyBee4
@AmyBee4 Жыл бұрын
Really enjoyed your video version of Monday Moot, and excited to watch this broadcast later tonight!
@janmulcahy1458
@janmulcahy1458 Жыл бұрын
Yay! Am a little late but am watching from the start. Always loving the show 😁
@samgreen9389
@samgreen9389 Жыл бұрын
Hi guys, thanks for the informative videos and interesting chat. I have a question and wondered if you might be able to shed some light on it for me. My girlfriend and I were at the South Tirol Archaeological Museum to see Otzi and while we were marvelling at the amazing preservation of his part-made bow and arrows, she asked me "How were bows and arrows invented?" I am aware of spear throwers and the like but what is the immediate precursor of the bow and arrow and how did it develop to the indispensable hunting tool and weapon of prehistory? Thanks again!
@markashdown1314
@markashdown1314 Жыл бұрын
Most interesting chaps.Thanks.
@1916JAD
@1916JAD Жыл бұрын
Really enjoyed this, gentlemen. Keep up the good work!
@jimmyviaductophilelawley5587
@jimmyviaductophilelawley5587 Жыл бұрын
Thanks Guys
@ThePrehistoryGuys
@ThePrehistoryGuys Жыл бұрын
Heeeyyy, thanks Jimmy, much appreciated:) R
@dianespears6057
@dianespears6057 Жыл бұрын
Very interesting.
@evanhadkins5532
@evanhadkins5532 Жыл бұрын
Thoughts on questions. Did neolithic / bronze age people play sports? Did neolithic / bronze age societies use money? Evan
@jimmyviaductophilelawley5587
@jimmyviaductophilelawley5587 Жыл бұрын
Hi Guys. Is this the place for my question? "What Is The Evidence For Stone Circles Being Used As Multifunctional Spaces?" Thankyou
@moreach13
@moreach13 Жыл бұрын
Not a question, perhaps an answer. You guys don't need fiber-optics, you need to check the focal-length of Rupert's camera. I've noticed this in many places now that so much is emanating from peoples' homes. Different cameras have different focal lengths. I can read the book titles on Rupert's shelves. I can't read Tim's. I suspect Rupert's camera has a greater focal length? Perhaps he needs to sit about a foot further back? Perhaps he needs to buy the same brand of camera? Experiment! It's the heart of science... Oh BTW, love the show...
@1v1thousand
@1v1thousand Жыл бұрын
Think I rather longer videos with a few questions but this was good too
@grahamking1242
@grahamking1242 Жыл бұрын
What are the prehistoric origins of the traditional Martial Arts? You have had many discussions on violence in prehistory and there are plenty of videos on the origins of the warrior class in the late Neolithic and early Bronze Age but there seems to be a gap in the record in explaining a warrior tradition that survives to the present in a very tangible form?
@medievalladybird394
@medievalladybird394 Жыл бұрын
Two nice looking guys giving advice on dating methods ...... Oh, wrong sort of dating 😊
@RalphEllis
@RalphEllis Жыл бұрын
The most frequent problem with C14 dating is limestone environments. The carbon in limestone is C14-ancient, and so any contamination from limestone will make the sample look older. R
@Sgotrojan
@Sgotrojan Жыл бұрын
Hey guys, love the video, you can go as long as you like, I watch on 2X speed 🤣 Couple questions, so c14/c13/12 historical data is updated regularly, and the last time it was updated, a lot of fossils ended up being dated 1,000 years off... So is the accuracy range of c14 dating, when there is lacking contextual evidence, still considered to only be accurate within +/- one thousand years? When the next data update happens could things shift drastically again? And do we know how close we are to being confident we've mapped the historical c14/c13/12 ratio accurately? Thanks again!
@ThePrehistoryGuys
@ThePrehistoryGuys Жыл бұрын
Hi @Sgotrojan, I'm not sure what you are referring to when you mention the dating of 'fossils'. The problem with C14 dating increases over time. The C14 isotope has a half life of around 5700 years, so is not useful for anything older than 60,000 as very little remains. The more recent the item being dated, the more accurate the results. A study in 2019 showed that C14 dating of specimens 3,000 years old gave an accuracy of within 50 years and the entire calibration system was refined in 2021. For the purposes of Neolithic and Bronze Age artefacts, dating is probably accurate to plus or minus 30 to 50 years but this does depend on the quality of the sample. Hope that helps:) All best, Rupert
@Sgotrojan
@Sgotrojan Жыл бұрын
@@ThePrehistoryGuys hey thanks! When I mentioned the 'fossils' I'm referencing the video at 16:20 when you day the c14 data was updated in 2020 and a bunch of human fossils were found to be dated 1,000 years off. Can we expect more c14 data updates like happened in 2013 and 2020?
@ThePrehistoryGuys
@ThePrehistoryGuys Жыл бұрын
Yes, the C14 calibrations are refined and updated fairly regularly, about every seven years or so I believe. It's hugely time consuming and involves testing large numbers of specimens for which precise ages are already known. R
@simpleiowan3123
@simpleiowan3123 Жыл бұрын
Some constructive criticism: Try not to prattle on discussing what you will or might be talking about later. All the elements of the intro (including the obligatory 9 mentions of Patreon) can and should be done in under 3 mins (max!) or risk losing chunks of the audience.
@douginorlando6260
@douginorlando6260 Жыл бұрын
Martin Sweatman (Prehistory Decoded) did a comprehensive analysis of all the published papers about dating the Younger Dryas Event and comparing it to evidence of a comet impact. He did an excellent job of explaining the various dating techniques and how dating errors arise.
@aliaed6054
@aliaed6054 Жыл бұрын
sorry, I missed the live show. Would someone tell me why the so-called Dinosovans are regarded as being true branches of Hominids when such a tiny number (of bits) of relics are found, when so many primates' share similar DNA with humans ?
@ThePrehistoryGuys
@ThePrehistoryGuys Жыл бұрын
Because Dna was extracted from those few pieces of bone and those genetic links are still present within modern day humans. Depending on the evolutionary line, we may or may not be able to interbreed. We could breed with Denisovans but not, say, with gorillas. R
@AmyBee4
@AmyBee4 Жыл бұрын
No Monday Moot yesterday?
@ThePrehistoryGuys
@ThePrehistoryGuys Жыл бұрын
Yes, the moots are on Patreon. We broadcast our 50th on KZfaq as an 'anniversary' show for the wider public.
@taurasmussen1000
@taurasmussen1000 Жыл бұрын
I would do much like if you could get Eske Willerslev on the show. He knows a thing or two, and he's Danish 😎
@TacDyne
@TacDyne Жыл бұрын
The only method of dating which is even remotely accurate is tree ring dating. It is not a guarantee of the age of the area where it was found, just of the date that particular tree died. All other methods are highly inaccurate, entirely too susceptible to tampering and interference from outside sources.
@michaelpacnw2419
@michaelpacnw2419 Жыл бұрын
The luminescence techniques are what have me excited... particularly the one that will tell us the last time a stone was exposed to sunlight. We could absolutely get a hard date for the building of the pyramids (and other megalithic sites) with this. Simply go deep down inside the pyramids and drill a core sample centered on one of the tightly fitted seam joints between two massive stones... drill in a foot or so then pull the plug and test the deepest part of the two faces that rested against each other. Somehow I doubt this will ever happen though.. Too many people have too much to lose if they come back significantly older than current archeology dogma dictates.
@wendychandler8304
@wendychandler8304 Жыл бұрын
waffle
@RalphEllis
@RalphEllis Жыл бұрын
Dendrochronology is pseudo-science. a. Tree-rings are hopeless as temperature sensors. Tree-ring thickness is determined by moisture, nutrients, canopy cover, disease, pests - and lastly by temperature. To say that tree-ring thickness is directly proportional to temperature is a complete nonsense. A very hot but very dry summer will produce thin rings (ie: cold dendrothermology temperatures). The best tree for dendrothermology would be the willow, but they don’t use those. b. Furthermore, you can find thick and thin rings within different radii ON THE SAME TREE. The 4 o’clock ‘temperature' data may well be completely different to the 12 o’clock temperature data. The core-borers that provide the ring-data are only 1 cm in diameter, so they only provide a small snap-shot of the tree circumference, and cannot see nor evaluate the fat and thin ring segments within the same tree. The methodology is so unreliable, that any climate research including dendro-temperatures should be thrown out. (Note: The IPCC removed Michael Mann’s dendrothermology hockey-stick graph, because it was shown to be fraudulent - they hid the 20th century decline in temperatures that the tree-ring data gave….! This was known as the ‘Hide the Decline’ scandal in the Climate-gate emails. I can show you the email.) c. However, this unreliability also calls into question Dendrochronology. If tree-growth is effected more by local conditions - moisture, nutrients, canopy cover and pests - then you cannot compare an ancient ship’s timber to a reference tree that may have grown many hundreds or thousands of miles away (ie: the Californian bristle-cone pine or Irish bog-oak dendro-data). There can be no comparison, because you cannot even compare two cores from the same tree! Take a look at the full circumference of a tree, and you will find rings of all shapes and sizes, around the full circumference. And all kinds of ring widths even in adjacent trees. So how can you compare a ship’s timber with a bristle-cone pine in California - when you cannot even compare that timber with a timber taken from the very same tree?? Dendrochronology is snake-oil science, and always has been. That is why they always ask for a rough archaeological date, before they date a sample. Ralph
@AmyBee4
@AmyBee4 Жыл бұрын
I wouldn't call it pseudo science. It's pretty reliable.
@lenabreijer1311
@lenabreijer1311 Жыл бұрын
I am sure that dendrochronologists are amazed, and grateful that you can explain all this about trees! Do you think they have never seen a tree in the wild? Or maybe you think they only ever looked at one tree? Maybe you can link to your peer reviewed published study where you debunk thousands of people's work for the last 40 years. You know of course that it is done with only specific kinds of trees and is usually limited to specific geographical areas or no, probably you don't.
@RalphEllis
@RalphEllis Жыл бұрын
@@lenabreijer1311 …. Your mention of specific localities is the problem. You might, at a pinch, get consistent tree-ring reference data from a specific location - say from an Irish bog oak (although I doubt that). But your archaeological sample data is probably from a completely difference location, with a different micro and macro climate - which will give different ring widths (and therefore different dates) The fraudulent dendrothermology climate data has proven that trees cannot record climate temperatures. That is why (in climate ‘science’) tree-ring data eliminated the Medieval warming period and the Little Ice Age - because tree cannot measure temperature. Likewise climate ‘scientists’ had the so-called ‘Divergence Problem’, where tree-rings indicated that the 20th century was progressively cooling. Ooops…. Again it is apparent that trees cannot record temperature. So they cut off the tree-ring ‘temperature’ graph after 1960, and spliced in the thermometer data to produce the hockey-stick graph. That was scientific FRAUD, which is why the IPCC eventually deleted that graph. (Do a web-search for “tree-ring temperature divergence problem”.) The problem this gives is - if trees cannot record continent-wide temperatures (ie: climate), then your sample log cannot be compared with a reference log that grew hundreds or thousands of miles away. Dendrochronology depends on trees recording climate over large regions, but climate scientists have (reluctantly) proven that they cannot do so. Ergo - dendrochronology is pseudo-science. It has to be. If dendrothermology falls, then dendrochronology falls with it. Ralph
@lenabreijer1311
@lenabreijer1311 Жыл бұрын
@@RalphEllis I don't see the link to your peer reviewed published study.
@RalphEllis
@RalphEllis Жыл бұрын
@@lenabreijer1311 …. An appeal to authority does not answer my concerns. But please do see: “Modulation of Ice Ages by Dust and Albedo”. E
@thehoarsewhisperer1929
@thehoarsewhisperer1929 Жыл бұрын
Read the title and thought to myself “prehistoric tinder 🤔!?!?” - but genuinely interesting topic - how has dating changed over the eras and between cultures.
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