Good point

my point exactly

Agreed. Classic tube amps can often be repaired and fixed but a digital Tone Master amp may not be so easily repairable. Warranty is absolutely needed on these.

I've had my tonemaster for about 3 and a half years. Still an absolutely amazing amp that blows people away every time I gig with it. I always get tone compliments. As you say, it's only fallback against the tube amp is longevity because if Fender decides to stop supporting it, it will be unrepairable. However it is technically more durable than the tube counterpart and requires no maintenance. To me the conveniences of it far out way the slight possibility that I break it and Fender no longer supports it. I think I've already gotten more than my money's worth in usage out of it because of all the situations I could use it, where I wouldn't have been able to use the Tube version. It's a better amp and you are getting it for less money.

Literally a tonex pedal cost 1/3 the price andcan do exactly this plus so much more

Yeah, it's literally a better amp for less money. Have had the Tonemaster Deluxe for years and I'm really happy with it. It's one and only downside compared to the Tube Counterpart is the possibility that one day Fender Stops supporting it, or maybe they go out of business and then some accident happens and your amp breaks. But I honestly think you can get your money's worth before that happens. Especially considering how much the amp costs compared to your cell phone or laptop, which will definitely expire sooner.

​@@TheDilliganthis is what sunk cost fallacy looks like lmao

Yeah you can spend $200 more and get a quad cortex and have everything, including multiple studio quality captures of almost any iconic amp. Not as bad as gibson but they're definitely missing the mark with their modelers.

yeah but thats not a real bassman with direct out... and you need an frfr box

@siitan83 no you don't. Just pick up a powered speaker that's all you need.

@@SlyRyFry yeah, but I dont want every amp (+an frfrcab)... I just want the best fender. (right now owning a twinreverb - the newest version). The new bassman really gets my fingers itching

@@daniellowry660 yeah..thats what I said. Frfr speaker.. is also a speaker

you could argue they have to recover development costs. If prices plummet after these costs are recovered that would demonstrate this. But my gut says your assessment is probably spot on

​@@nihilistlivesmatterit's built in to the price.knowing that's possible. However, tone master is a tried and true product now, they know what they can expect out of it

I own a TM Twin Reverb, so I'll tell you exactly why: because I don't want to scroll through infinite menus on a computer screen after staring all day at a computer screen at work and a smartphone outside work. I also like owning a high-quality, cool-looking clean amp I can use for practicing in the living room without pissing off my neighbors. I also like having few options because it keeps me practicing instead of messing around with settings. If I want Helix or Fractal level tweakability, I have a whole DAW-based operation upstairs with a pedalboard and a tube recording amp in front of it.

@@revolead the thing you and other people with the same mindset always got wrong is that you don't HAVE to "scroll through infinite menus on a computer screen" each time, every time. You make a sound exactly the same way as you would dial in an amp, save the patch, and then all you have to do is turn on a switch, plug in a guitar and start playing. I would say it's even easier, you don't have search for and acquire the amp you want to try out in guitar shops or 2nd hand market, you don't have to lug around dozens of guitar cabinets, you don't have to change out speakers to find the right one - it's all in there a couple of button presses away. I don't really believe that someone who says that he has his amplifier there, and that he can plug his guitar into it at any time and it sounds amazingly good at any time, is being completely honest with himself. He just subconsciously accepted that it sounded like that, and his brain learned to like that sound. Because he knows very well how much it sucks to be able to achieve any kind of development in your sound, how much it costs, how much time and energy you have to spend to find the right equipment, etc. You can't compare the amount of time it takes to find your own sound on physical stuff and to find the same on modeling stuff. I know very well, because for 25 years I searched for sound using tube amplifiers (all kinds of models from Laney, Peavey, Mesa, Engl, Marshall in that order), then I switched to modeling stuff. I learned the ins and outs of it in a couple of weeks, made 5-6 presets for myself and that's it, I just plug in my guitar and play (in my opinion and also according to the members of my band, my stuff sounds the best so far). So at least don't lie to yourself with the excuse of "endless menus" :) Also the fact that you prefer to messing around with settings instead of playing is not the device's fault...

@@Zool2107 I understand that argument. I have, in fact, owned equipment with "endless menus" or other things that need to be programmed. I even have a desktop studio setup upstairs where I have a Two Notes cab sim, a few rather complicated digital delays (with presets), and plugins so infinitely tweakable they make Fractals and Helixes look limited. That said, I know what I prefer. I'm not lazy. I'm not some incompetent old fart (I'm not even 40 and I run a Linux system on one of my laptops). I just don't like sifting through menus to dial in a sound. And when I do want that much tweakability, I prefer my computer mouse and plugins on a DAW. I also tend to only use one or two models of anything on programmable systems with 120 different options. I've learned that after owning a bunch of delays and reverb pedals and cab sims. Fender's design is for people like me. If you prefer 120 different amp models, go for it. But don't join the chorus of people crapping on Fender for not building a Fractal.

They don't update the software on their tube amps either.

yep, once they get it right there is no need for another update. My TM Deluxe Reverb Blonde has been a workhorse and after the last update it just works.

that is correct. An old 65 fender bassman still runs fine today, but a 2024 tone master will not be around in 70 years. Spend your money on things that last. Spend as little as possible on digital.

The industry, in general, has done a really poor job at explaining how their products work. This amp, and others just like it from different brands, have 3 parts to them. You have an analog solid state power amp, an analog solid state preamp and a digital effects section, all in one box. So, when you say "all this digital stuff", you're just talking about the effects processor. Remove the effects and you have a regular, fully analog combo amp. If you bought a multi digital effects processor, like Line 6 or Headrush, and plug it into a regular analog combo amp, you're doing the exact same thing that this amp does. All they're doing is moving the digital effects from external to internal. Most modeling amps give you the option to bypass the internal signal processing, and plug in something external, like pedals, into the preamp directly. If you get a modeling amp with this option, (I know Line 6 Catalyst has this feature), you can use the internal processing and upgrade to better effects down the road. There's no need to buy a new amp unless you want to. Also, I know there's some confusion about this, but the only thing digital is the effects. The amp and preamp are always analog. They can't be digital. Its impossible to amplify a bunch of 1's and 0's. The signal has to be converted to analog before it gets to the preamp. I just want to make it clear that I'm not faulting you at all. The industry is responsible for making this mess, not you. Also, I know at some point the effects processor will stop being updated at some point. I don't see a problem with that. As long as your amp is working right now with current software, you can still use it for as long as you wish. You can still use your older versions of Xbox and PS even though they are no longer supported. Same thing with this amp.

@@t0msie Yes, but they get it right the first time; even if they don't because the "code" (schematic) is open source, built on known process, if one willing to or have some money, they can modify it, hot rod it, etc. If you want to sacrifice some stuff, change from tube rect to solidate rect. Same with "analog modelling" ala FET circuit and SANSamp clones. My Blues JR Rev B have the cathode follower mode and the reverb fix mod, without needing to get Fender involved. Digital not only rely on algorithm mimic characteristic of an amp, they are propreitery; when it needs to be better, or maintained, you have to involve the manufacturer; if there are bugs and it's no longer maintained, there are no way to change it. You can't hot rod closed source algorthim either. Now if they make an open source version? Maybe.

VERY misunderstood amp that. My friend has one and it's bloody good.

couldn't agree more.

Can confirm. I have a Blues Cube Artist and it rips. Anderton's did a blindfold comparison of a bunch of tube combo amps and a Blues Cube as a wildcard. I highly recommend watching the video.

It has issues with the switching power amp repeatedly failing. I had mine replaced a few years ago and it's starting to fail again (and based on what I've seen online, I'm not the only one). Sadly Roland has also fallen into the expensive disposable amp scam.

I have the artist model and am very satisfied. I have played through many tube amps in my 67 yrs and the BC artist sounds as good at least to my ear (blues mainly) as any high end tube fender I’ve played through. Great amp imo.

Man... I remember one of my first amps was a GDEC-3 lmao

@@natearchuleta2003 How about the CyberTwin, remember those? And they were like $2000 !! I think that was their very first modeler, maybe?

Reading through the comments, I see so many people saying pretty much the same thing as you. Your concerns are valid. However, if you look at the overall picture, this problem is not nearly as bad as you guys are making it out to be. But, I'm not faulting you in any way. The industry is at fault. I can't respond to everyone, so I'm just coping a response I just wrote for someone else. If you read through it, I think you'll find some of the information useful. "The industry, in general, has done a really poor job at explaining how their products work. This amp, and others just like it from different brands, have 3 parts to them. You have an analog solid state power amp, an analog solid state preamp and a digital effects section, all in one box. So, when you say "all this digital stuff", you're just talking about the effects processor. Remove the effects and you have a regular, fully analog combo amp. If you bought a multi digital effects processor, like Line 6 or Headrush, and plug it into a regular analog combo amp, you're doing the exact same thing that this amp does. All they're doing is moving the digital effects from external to internal. Most modeling amps give you the option to bypass the internal signal processing, and plug in something external, like pedals, into the preamp directly. If you get a modeling amp with this option, (I know Line 6 Catalyst has this feature), you can use the internal processing and upgrade to better effects down the road. There's no need to buy a new amp unless you want to. Also, I know there's some confusion about this, but the only thing digital is the effects. The amp and preamp are always analog. They can't be digital. Its impossible to amplify a bunch of 1's and 0's. The signal has to be converted to analog before it gets to the preamp. I just want to make it clear that I'm not faulting you at all. The industry is responsible for making this mess, not you. Also, I know at some point the effects processor will stop being updated at some point. I don't see a problem with that. As long as your amp is working right now with current software, you can still use it for as long as you wish. You can still use your older versions of Xbox and PS even though they are no longer supported. Same thing with this amp."

Nevertheless, even if the amp still works as a solid state amp $1500 is a lot of money for an amp that turns into an ordinary solid state amp at some inevitable point in time. M Maybe it won’t be in the rubbish but you still no longer have the amp you originally purchased

The cabs look too nice to ever throw in the bin if they die. If mine dies, I'll probably buy a tube conversion kit like Mojo Tone sells...

That’s what I would do as well. I use a boss floorboard and an frfr in this way.

Try the Roland Blues Cube if you like fender tweed vibe. I love mine and is much cheaper. Such a great amp.

@@onlyguitars When I was looking for a Tweed I ended up with a very clean 1957 Gibson GA-8. Which is Neil Young but more highs. I'm more remiss about how this Bassman should've been the 2nd tonemaster & it'd be exciting. But here we are.

Yeah, I chose a Supro Amulet over a Fender Princeton Reverb (tube version) because of the attenuation and price. I haven't played a Princeton, but I don't need to now. Sorry, not sorry Fender.

I’ve been super happy with the Tonemaster Twin and Deluxe Reverb. They sound great and the DI out is fabulous. I like that Fender has updated the firmware to give players different flavors / options to get the most out of each. Glad to see them doing more of these. Plus I don’t need a modeller to support moving between multiple amps.

Helix >fender tone master

Yep. Live is a different scenario, but in the room at home they’re really not close. I really wanted to like it too. These really are made for hauling to gigs, but as you said you could get a katana for way less and it’ll do just as well. I hate solid state amps I play a 63 brownface Vibroverb, but live the utility of the katana can’t be understated. Nobody in the crowd knows the difference regardless. Greatest $400 amp ever made imo.

Exactly

​@ScottsGuitar I'd say of the gig, if it is music focused bring the tubes, but if you're background music for a party/event then bring a solid state for comfort. But, this requires time and money.

Your comment demonstrates perfectly the misconception people have about modeling amps. The tube amp in the room SHOULD NOT sound like the modeling amp in the room with you. Put the tube amp in another room, mic it, then listen to it on a studio monitor in the room with you, and then do the comparison.

@@joeltunnah I would argue here that Fender is advertising it as an exact replica of a Tubeamp. They even put it in the same case and price it like this was the case. I own other modelers and modeling amps and would compare them the way you suggest, but Fender is puposefully marketing it as a replacement and then it should be compared in the same situations. It has nothing to do with people not understanding how to compare a modeler...

You think a modern tube amp is any more reliable? You’re fooling yourself. I can’t tell you how many tube amps I’ve had fail on me.

@@Unusednickname_1970 handwired =/= modern aside from new valves every so often and occasional rebias they're bulletproof

@@nihilistlivesmatter not in my experience. Amp manufacturers are charging a premium for tube amps and the quality is at an all time low, unless you’re willing to spend thousands on a point to point, hand-wired amp. Ever looked inside a modern Fender, Marshall, Vox tube amp? Garbage.

@@Unusednickname_1970 OP & I both specified handwired

@@nihilistlivesmatter fair enough. Sorry I missed that detail. However, I think hand wired tube amps make up a very small percentage of the market. It’s just not realistic to say that they are an option for most players.

Tonemasters are different and they are very much the real things. They just have better highend sound.. every amp is different..

@@siitan83 That's the beauty of music as art, we can all decide what we enjoy. I found the highend harsh on both TM's... I would play them with the Bright switch down and mine with it up. Been a Twin player 30 years, so it could just be the two I had had a smoother high end.

No kidding! The amp seems fine, but I want to jam with this dude for a while.

Sounded like digital tone to me

I'm pretty sure its going to be coming. Modeler through a power amp and a cab is the way to go. If you have a prepackaged combo or something similar I'm thinking its going to sell once people realize how much better it is than playing through an FRFR.

I've been playing my iridium rig through a behringer KXD15 keyboard amp for a couple years now and love it. Never played an FRFR but the keyboard amp sctaches my itch for the "amp in the room feel"

I did a variation of this and bought a Superblock UK that I run XLR'd into an alto busker. It's hodgepodge but my options are wide open for buying a cab or frfr or just an actual decentish PA to run XLR into.

To be fair, unless you're happy with headphones, you still need to plug the HX Stomp into a powered speaker or monitor of some kind. So an HX Stomp + something like a Yamaha HS8 is about $1050 USD. But still cheaper and more versatile than this Fender.

I sold my tube DR after getting a Tonemaster DR and haven't looked back. The only thing I felt was missing was the reverb, but an Oceans 11 pedal took care of that. My back really appreciates it too.

Exactly what I was thinking

I have the Fender FR12 since January and rotate the two rigs I run through it: Boss IR-2 with pedalboard and a Ampero 2 Stage. I'm very happy with this FR12 considering nearly every Fender amp I've tried, I either returned or sold.

Fender, like me, doesn't see the TM series as a Helix or Katana or Fractal alternative. They're a Fender tube amp alternative (hence, you're paying for the aesthetics), and, in my opinion, come closest to digitally sounding like a Fender tube amp. I played a Katana multiple times in the store, and they suffer from a cheap speaker and cheap ADA converters. The Katana Artist is absolutely worth the speaker and converter upgrades, but it's really more of a rock machine, not a Fender emulator. A much better comparison for the Katana is Fender's Mustang GTX series. I had one as a practice amp for a few years. That amp's strength was its Fender emulations, the same ones that made it into the TM FM. Its weakness was no attenuator, so it was loud as hell or practically silent, same issue I had for years with my Fender Deluxe tube amp. I can't stand not having that middle ground because I live in a big city in a condo with neighbors against my wall. Another better comparison would be the TMs with Boss's Nextone series. I own both a TM Twin Reverb and a Boss Nextone Special. They are much closer in price and quality, and they can be dialed in to be nearly indistinguishable. The Nextone takes pedals much better, however. And obviously is far more versatile, being able to also emulate EL84/34 amps. It's easy as consumers to dismiss products for their pricing and not realize someone else will pay the premium. If the TM isn't worth more than the Katana to you, that's fine. But it is to me, for reasons stated above.

​@@revoleadFair points, beauty is in the ear of the beholder

Love the mustang GTX100❤

That's a very good point

Or

I'm one of those plug and play guys, I have a pedal board, I brought a gx100 and just keep a crunchy edge of break up tone for practice on the sofa with headphones, bassman is my dream amp but for half the price I could buy a silver jubilee and an attenuator, choices, choices

@@pads-zr9ln Yeah I just have a Peavey Bandit and it works for me. I was running a bunch of pedals but went back to basics and am happy with the results. I'm sure if I recorded it the way it's set up now, no one would know or care that it's a solid state combo.

thats why im stockpiling tubes. the tube shortage is coming

You made the statement, that "just cuz something sounds good now, doesn't mean it needs to be expensive because it sounds good" which is true. There's plenty of great sounding stuff sitting on shelves now that'll be expensive later. But we've absolutely been sold out by all the companies and KZfaqrs, because "it sounds good so it should be expensive" is definitely a thing.just look at jhs and that stupid DigiTech pedal. Ppl got that mentality from somewhere, and so when something turns out to be good, ppl think expensive means it is good. Ppl want their choices validated by grown men who are impressed/envious over the internet. It literally is like school still, all ya gotta do is look

@@NintenDub I hear you I basically got my amp second hand it sounds great, and it's a tube amp. personally I like the sound of tube amps. Because for a long time they were obviously better than digital amps. But even now, there are plenty of amps that are tube amps that sound amazing, that are not $4,000 or $3,000 ya know? I like nice things too, don't get me wrong, but personally, at what point are you just paying for the idea of nice instead of actually nice.?. At the end of the day if you got that kind of money and you want to spend it, go ahead. But at the same time I just wish people would be mindful that when they do go forward with a purchase like that, there are actively ( and unconsciously of course) screwing the little guy who can't afford it. Now once again, I'm not saying they're doing that Intentionally I'm just saying that it happens without their realisation because now the company says, "hey guys look can you believe it,? We can actually charge this and people will buy it, crazy huh?" I mean really, just imagine if everybody started paying $1,500 for a tonemaster style of amp... How long before every digital amp cost $1,000 or more before the little guy can't afford it at all anymore? And really how much of a difference do you think there is in technology between something like a boss katana and a tone Master series amp? In my opinion probably not a whole lot of a technological leap. Just saying. What vendor is basically saying it's a big enough leap that you should now pay an extra $1,100 to $1,200.?. I don't know I just don't buy it that's all I'm saying.