Gets invited to an official ACC event and days later a negative video on rF2. Hmm. These exploits are well known. As are the ACC exploits. Why not just get Marcel back on another call and ask him about these? I guess the ACC fan base is so huge and appealing you have to make them feel better about their lap times. 👏🏻

I've never been invited to an official ACC event.

@@Ermz OK not an official ACC event, but you've gone from "ACC feels lifeless" to a far more accepting position. It should be noted you only partly answered the comment. Why not just get Marcel back on? Why the provocative video title? It's OK if you are trying to expand your subscriber base by being kinder on ACC and less forgiving of S397/Luminis.

@@spellcaster39ify Not sure how changing ones opinion from "ACC feels lifeless to a more accepting position" is a problem. All these games evolve over time so it's quite natural for opinions to change over time.

@@gross4784 I am naturally suspicious of KZfaqr motives. If you have a critical (negative) view of ACC, you alienate a huge % of the potential "sim racing" subscriber base. Suddenly racing competitively in ACC, making a video about it, posting a gushing video all about the C8R and quickly following that up with a negative video about rF2 is no accident. EH has been repeatedly criticized as a fanboy of rF2 and ACC die-hards do not like these kinds of content creators. He's far more likely to get to that elusive 100k sub goal by embracing ACC and the YT algo knows which ACC fans respond well to videos that knock rF2 off its pedestal. The balanced thing to do would have been to offer Marcel a chance to respond to the criticisms, rather than just post the exploits that forum-goers have long known about. Why did he ignore that part of my question? We know why.

i c8r what u did there

Yeah it's a JOKE

@@Cagefighter you cant wait 1 min for something to load?

turn replays off. it helps.

@@ricardomascorro509 The newer tracks take longer to load also because there is tons more details to load up.

Man, thats is a simracing...

Welcome to sim racing eSports. One of many reasons it's just not popular.

Best comment. And to you guys, just swallowing it with: 'Well, it's simracing'. Consider races with fixed setups. Where the best driver wins. I don't get why fixed setups are not way more popular. If you're slow in such a race, you know you have to improve your skill. Full stop. You are not left head scratching where in the vast net you could possibly find some witch-craft setup work.

Happens on all the platforms. Welcome to racing sim or not. The aim is to always game the rules to get the best advantage be it tech regs, bop regs, setup tweaks to take advantage of sim platform nuances etc etc etc

@@MikiLaggard Yep, I much prefer fixed setups, I have no intention/desire to spend hours working on setups, especially if the fastest ones are basically hacks, dissapointing and affects all sims

true now I know wy you and Erhan are so fast :P:P:P

@@roydemuinck5001 we got caught, oh no

🤣🤣🤣

@@fener488 We all know you're a cheat anyway. #shadowplay. ;)

Downforce on any car? Rear downforce? Thanks

there are some mods which the lower the camber the more grip it has, but none of the official content is like that from what i know. certainly not the S397 paid cntent, that I assure you. go to low, and after 3 or 4 laps the outside of the ire will overheat and you will either lose time or the car

Absolutley 100% true mate.

Ayy Raceroom chads rise up!

Let me categorically assuage your concerns: My 'hacked' setup is as much a qualifying setup as the default setup is a race setup. The hacked setup will actually give you better performance in both race and qualification applications, and across the majority of tracks. The neutralized tyre camber and toe actually provides better long-term race performance vs the more maximized toe and camber of the default, so in fact my setup is a superior race setup as well. Those tweaks were not specific just to Sebring. If I were to make it Sebring specific, I would've spent a far longer time tweaking the car's height, rake and dampers. The carl-level ABS on the GT3 cars is in no way realistic. Most eSports-grade setups have it maxed because, as with game-level ABS, it gives you all the positives without any negatives. You simply stomp your foot on the brake and your braking zone shrinks. I agree the game-level ABS should never be used in competitions, but it was allowed at the last invitational I took part in.

@@Ermz 'but it was allowed at the last invitational I took part in.' Isn't this the fault of the organisers though? It does seem like fixed setup competitions are the way to go, as there will always be exploits. Seems like fixed setups will get more interest from people who actually like driving, rather than just 'gamers'. That world's fastest gamer guy in your recent video stated the time taken to find all the setup quirks was a big negative, and he can't be the only one. Maybe many more are just put off completely from getting into the scene.

​@@Ermz especially the neutralized camber "hack" is a thing, that only works on midrear and rearengined cars like Ferrari, Vette or Porsche, because you´re going to prevent the rear tyres from overheating permanently, starting from the inner edge. Fast setups on a BMW or Bentley, are always using "normal" camber for slicks

It works on EVERY CAR in rf2 these days. Every GT3, GTE and even the prototypes are similar.

I've seen people do essentially the same thing over ACC to GT3s and getting better results.

I agree with you. the only fix is start developing rfactor 3

Absolutley rigt mate. The new R8 GT3 is a blast!

@@memoNo1719 sure is, the GT2 and GT4 variants also feel very authentic and super fun to drive

@@Driftuner Indeed. I also have all of them. But the GT3 is my favourite of the new releases. Best stuff is the Group4😎😁👍👊

kzfaq.info/get/bejne/Z7Wpfa6CscfFdps.html

@@memoNo1719 wow that is one impressive video! You nailed the mix reality! And Bilsterberg is just one of the coolest tracks ever

I thought it would be self-evident, but you're right, I probably should've reflected on the absurdity of how I was taking some of the corners.

Tell that to Alonso and the others. They've been doing the same things in F1. Pulsing with brakes, throttle, or inducing oversteer with hard flicks at the steeringwheel just before midcorner to open up the limit and vector the car just right for a slightly faster corner exit.. Yes it's outright terrible style and dangerous but when you have the feel for the car it's really rewarding and gives you great results. Doing everything by the books only takes you so far. That being said it shouldn't be possible to do so on each and every car... I will try the technique in ACC to see if it's possible there too. EDIT: Just tried ACC with the 2019 488 gt3. No ABS, No TC, Aggressive setup. It does the same damn thing. Just like in RF2. Only it's a bit harder to gauge the weight transfer and feeling less means easier to overshoot and harder to catch uncontrolled slides. Apart from that it's a perfectly valid technique if executed correctly.

@ And there is the Senna stuff with digital throotle control (meaning 0->1->0->1...) mid-corner... They all use exploits in car behavior 😁😁😁 (oops, Dávid just comment on this)

@ Alonso did that on corner entry and for creating understeer. It is very different from turning more for better grip. Actually it's exactly the opposite. You can see how much more rotation you get by turning way beyond realistic slip angles.

ACC on a track like Silverstone is the worst at this. Understeering scrub city.

I agree here with Jeff. I was going to ask this same question. Try the Audi 2020 DTM model and compare! Great graphics, realistic handling and sounds.

@Da-zed Stiffer anti-roll barre helps springs and outside tires to handle the weight transfer better especially at high-speed corners. for Spa for example stiffer antiroll barres are better :)

@Da-zed I think there is a small confusion; the main topic here is about rfactor 2 so the real engineering doesn't apply at 100%; what I'm talking about is antiroll bar impact on rf2 cars handling. in rf2 you can use the lowest static camber (less negative values) + softest antiroll bares without any issues. and the impact on the body roll is not as you expect. soft antiroll bare generates higher initial body roll (tun in) but generates less body roll on exist (understeering); this is about rfactor 2 and not real-life physics. When dealing with sims I personally spend 90% of my time on the track and 10% on the setup and telemetry, because even the basic law of tire physiques can not be verified on those videogames

@Da-zed I have only tried the recent Dallara P2 at Daytona (high speed track) and ended up with detached front anti roll barre and soft rear antiroll bare, and softest springs possible; so for me it is not different; the FFB and tire model do but the rest is very close.

@Da-zed for me they are just video games and I enjoy the competition. I don't think technically Graphics engines and hardware support advanced physics.

@Da-zed Happy new year Zed; my personal view and my favorite sim is rfactor 2; it has a realtime tire deflection model, engine, brake and water temp; more sensitive aéro dynamics

GT? really? LOL. ummm no

Fortunately, physics specialists such as you are here to enlighten us...

@@oxymore4190 you don't have to be a physics expert to figure out how bad these cars are. The optimum slip angle of the tyres are far far far too high and the drop off after the peak is almost flat, meaning you have to drift and slide in and out of every single corner to be fast. The setups we can run are completely dumb and the way the cars react to the to dirty air and many other things are also very very poor.

@@bamy546 of course and as you are a professional driver you know how a GTE behaves...lol

I refunded Rf2 as it wouldn't load into VR. Bought AMS2 instead, runs great, lovely UI and enjoying it so far. Plus the devs seem to be constantly improving it.

In the past, they started with rf1 physics, but it has been massively developed.

@@ThePape78 True, I don't think it's on par with rFactor 2 but it's far better than rF1 ever was, simracing hardware has also come a long way.

@@fastfolky What raceroom lacks is a weather system. But otherwise it's my favorite. The new DTM 2020 are the best I've driven so far in simracing. With Rfactor2 everything takes just too long. The terrible new Ui for which they need years again as an example.

My concern with RR would be which content to pay for. There's so much of it that you need to be selective or miss out on a lot of events.

Nothing I've competed in is as insane as RF2, running rear wing at minimum with no roll bar to be competitive.

@Wrap Wiggle Potential is one of those words that don't mean anything. Potential is nothing more than a rose tinted hope of the future. A hope that through a miracle something bad turns into something good. Like a broken coffee maker that randomly fixes itself. Sure it could be the best coffee maker if it just worked. But it doesn't.

I always wonder how this statements can be made. Who has every information needed to understand and sum up which physics engine among the sims out there is the best? I think even Heusinkveld is claiming he can't give any serious answer on this, but parts of the community can? Interesting...

@@patrickfireball5188 just listen to some interview, dennis lind for example who is a big rf2 player (high level) and also gt3 driver, he just say it like this "ffb is good, car handling and setup are complete nonsense"

​ @Patrick Fireball I think in the end it is also a question of what you like. Some people just like certain kind of feel and then just interpret that feeling of liking it as it being the most realistic. We also like things we are good at so if we play one sim all the time we are going to learn to drive like it drives. So then when you go from one sim to other you have those same habits and expectations which may not be realistic or could be just your own behaviours you have learned over the time. So when you then drive a different sim (or even a different kind of car) it can be difficult to interpret if the sim is the issue or yourself. But at the same time some things are easier to spot. Niels made some good observations about the engine and throttle modelling of acc. Similarly other people have noticed the unrealistic bouncyness of ams2. Easy to spot without doing a ton of telemetry analysis and interpretation. So there are definitely things that are easy to spot as obvious flaws. Not to mention a flaw can be many things. It can be a bug where a wrong is inserted in a text file. It can be bad math or just missing physics component. It can be bad data creating bad outcomes in certain situations, too much pitch sensitivity on aero or too much drop of grip at higher slip angles. Or the physics engine not having high enough frequency to calculate some stuff in extreme cases. Or it can be just a different opinion. For example, are cars driven faster or slower in sim compared to real life? Some people say there is no difference, other say there is. Who is right? Overall we as end users can rarely tell which of those is happening even if we can spot an issue. And then there are things that are much harder to interpret because it is a complex combination of many parameters. How quickly should a car get into a tankslapper? Ac-acc-rf2-raceroom-rf2-ams2-ams1 you already get a ton of variety. Those are really complex issues and I'm sure even real life engineers don't necessarily share the same opinion which would be the best simply because they might value different things differently. Just like a simracer x could value more the feeling from neutral to the peak slip angle more than he values the over the limit behaviour. Then after all that add the average sim racer into the discussion who thinks everybody else in the community has the same level of understanding and likes as himself. When someone says x is wrong he might just think nobody can not know this because he can't. Or you have people who think they know more than they do. And people who just have a flawed expectation of how a sim car should drive without being too vocal about it. Then you have people with huge variety of skill levels. Some person may be basing his opinions on driving 10 seconds off the pace while someone else is right at the top. I think discussion is always good but if there is a rejection of opinions simply because of opinions then the discussion is going to be fruitless. After all people do not just drive the sim they like the most but they also hang around people they feel like they belong to. So sometimes a flaw can only be accepcted once it has been fixed by a dev.

@@thomassiefert2682 And the GT3 driver Wolfgang Reib said, its the most realistic sim for him. So whats the truth?

The tire pressure thing is probably the most well-known. Surprised he didn't mention it. The game gives ZERO penalties for underinflated tires and it only increases grip. Most be some kind of quirk with their physics models.

@@opmike343 im now like a kid who just known santa doesn't exist 😭

Lower pressures always give better grip. The only downside is higher risk of blown out tires, but this doesn't happen in the sim. Still, IRL there's a minimum tires pressure to avoid accidents.

@@berarma yeah but however in rf2 you set this to the lowest and you have optimum grip. However in ACC there's a threshold. If you go lower or higher than that you don't get the best lap times

@@farmboyfanGaming That's unrealistic. Lower pressure should provide better grip.

Why some real cars are extraordinary, and the same brand never did a car like that again? Because they got the formula right in that one, by chance, and never did it again. Same thing in games. There will be always "exploits" in real and simulated worlds.

Tbh they should aim for realism not fun because that's what they've been advertising themselves for which I always felt was a bit misleading

Pretty much all sims have setup flaws of some sort. Steer clear of eSports unless you want these games ruined for you.

Then you probably need to watch something other than RF2 TV ;)

@untitled. Google how to make a custom FFB profile on AC. You downloaded a couple of apps that test your own wheel and produce a profile.

I totally agree with you, the problem is that the hack described is to be able to drive the car in an unrealistic way. A real race would try to race the car as realistic as possible and could argue that the simulation is realistic... A gamer or esport driver takes what the game gives to extremes and gain time when the engine can not handle those extremes values correctly, is not that the game does not had a realistic way of handling or driving is that the game behaves wrong when using extremes values and people exploit those things to have an advantage that is not realistic.

@@michasmarzewski3670 of course... If you only drive gt3 or gt4 series, your know there's a lot more to motors sports that gt 3 ...

@@michasmarzewski3670 unfortunately is know that the engine can be taken to unrealistic level via tuning and each car has it own physics defined... you could have some realistic experience keeping a tune inside realistic values and using a good modeled car... or blow the whole simulation sending the tune to unrealistic values like extreme low psi or decoupling the front bar. unfortunately if you want to play competitive online you have no option but the last to be competitive. I use rfactor 2 for the pure enjoyment of driving and going fast using real config values... not to compete because I know people exploit the engine to the point that is not a simulation any more; and for MY end and use case is the best Sim out there.

Just for reference... here a Master Thesis where the wheel aspect of the simulation is analyzed deeply and technically: Optimisation of the tyre model in rFactor2: www.politesi.polimi.it/bitstream/10589/153184/1/Optimisation%20of%20the%20tyre%20model%20in%20rFactor2%20environment%20for%20AVEHIL%20professional%20simulator.pdf if you read, and understand what is discussed in the thesis, you know the level/lack of realism, and the shortcomings that rfactor2 has (in it wheel simulation). As conclusion... the level of simulation depends directly in the quality of it mods created (vehicles), a good mod return a near real life result, a bad mod diverge severely from real life.

Raising issues with the rf2 team is an interesting experience. I pushed hard enough (by tying one of the team into a few logical knots from which he could not squirm) to have him lose his temper. The reason I no longer use the xplane series is the attitude of the developer; I'm close to the same situation with rf2. Although I still use rf2 for some specific events, I'm actively planning to drop it from all events from around June. The main reason is I believe they are offering too little too late. There has been a flurry of activity from S397 of late, but they have not taken advantage of the current interest in sim-racing in the way Reiza, Kunos, iRacing (kinda) and (I can't believe I am going to say this) R3E.

@@bertram-raven I think S397 have been in a tricky position. They basically took on a project (rF2) which already had significant issues, and they've been trying to fix what they can while adding content to finance the whole adventure as they go. Maybe they weren't in a position to be able to take advantage of the situation like other studios were - is what it is I guess. As an aside, manoeuvring anyone into a trap of any sort is not a pleasant experience for the person being trapped, and can feel like a hostile act to the person being targeted, so your machinations and manipulations are more than likely going to end in your contact being cut off rather than having progress made in the directions you are striving for. As you've now tried the same tactic twice and not received the desired result, may I suggest (in the friendliest way possible) that you try a different strategy next time? Couldn't hurt.

@@RubberStig Logical knots are only possible when the person on the receiving end is being passive-aggressive or deliberately trying to cause confusion. In my case, the particular S397 bod was treating me as a moron - he had it coming!

Yeah, FWIW with the 488 as non-aliens we were doing 2:14s. In the faster BOPed cars I believe some of the quali laps were down in the 2:11s. Sucks, but that's the power of these exploits when combined with exploitative driving styles and lots of time to refine them.

@@Ermz I know I'm not the best but I always thought I was just rubbish at this sim driving thing :) Still rubbish just not as rubbish as I thought.

Yep. The bad VR Support is the reason why i dont use it. Very sad!

@@willyraypaul6617 Me too.

@@willyraypaul6617 well rF2 and also rrre work fine in vr for me or good enough. rF2 in rain need optimization.

@@willyraypaul6617 Yes ACC can work. But only with a little SS with max. 15 cars and it's very blurry, at least for me. KartKraft also has the UnrealEngine as an example. It works there too. Hopefully the developers decide to support VR more.

Automobilista 2 is great in VR and I am enjoying the game. I bought it after refunding Rf2 which crashed constantly. Didn't bother trying ACC due to comments on performance.

ASM has finally got the permission from URD to adapt my favorite car to the BOP of the S397 GTE. It is offtopic but still great!

This issue kills the online multiplayer and competition aspect of the sim, any race that allows setups will be open to exploits, people end up driving in a unrealistic way and the whole idea of sim racing get thrown trough the window.

@@balamacab Asked about it in the rF2 forum and people explained in a convincing way that the video was a bit one-sided and mis-informing.

@@michasmarzewski3670 OK, where's the study?

bridgehampton

I think the focus with s397 is to create great content and sell it. From memory ISI never put much focus on the content and just worked on the simulation, theres your problem right there. I dont blame s397 for what they are doing, in the short term it is probably good business. However rFactor was never about short term profitability.

Exactly. This should not be in this video. It’s completely beside the point and diverted the video from its focus.

ABS low was allowed in the Le Mans Virtual and the Spa invitational

@@rorymacduff Really? Unfortunately I wasn't invited to either of those 😭

@@rorymacduff That is beside the point as it has nothing to do with game itself. You have aids on ALL sims. To select to use them or allowing its use is the responsibility of the event organizer, not the game developer.

I'm unsure. The game will no longer boot into the main menu for me.

@@Ermz lol

@Phil Thompson My point is what numbers you use in the UI to set up car parameters is not the mark of realistic driving simulation. It is a realistic racing sim if the actual handling of the car and its performance is realistic. For example, I don't know what wing angle "P1" refers to, so how can I judge if the setting is unrealistic or not. You might argue that disconnecting the front sway bar should ruin the splitter aero, but I don't know what the real roll rate of the real car is and when that would break the front aero. What I am doing is simply adjusting things to get the most speed. What those settings are at the end of the day is irrelevant to me. Where it would be an issue, is if a specific setting allowed ridiculous forces to be generated. But that does not seem to be the case as lap times seem to be in line with the real world anyway.

@Phil Thompson No worries Phil, it is an interesting subject.

@Phil Thompson Now this looks like it could be a genuine problem! kzfaq.info/get/bejne/m9aknsiL1s2Vgnk.html

That's a pretty low bar. "Still better than Ridge Racer" LMAO!