Perhaps it's like with humans: Some societies embrace cannibalism, others (most) don't. Uruk-Hai thought of themselves as "better orcs"; a little bit like your status-argument, but perhaps it goes further: More along the lines of "we're too civilized and superior to engage in cannibalism" - whereas goblins/tribal cave orcs may be more cannibalistic.

The Uruk-hai may not have been insulted at the suggestion of their cannibalism, but the insults to Saruman, and by extension, them. The accusation of cannibalism may have been part of the series of insults thrown at them. Grishnak was suggesting that they pledged their allegiance to an inferior power and they were being tricked by that inferior power. That's the conclusion I have always drawn from that passage.

Considering how orcs treat each other, it's quite astonishing that Mordor and Isengard can muster so large armies.

Last weekend I visited friends, who have a daughter about 2 years old. I roared: "Now I'm gonna eat you all up!", and ran after her growling and waving my arms, while she ran away squealing and giggling. So, obviously, Shagrat telling other Orks that he's gonna eat them, isn't a threat, it's a sign of affection and kinship! The worst thing that'll happen to those other Orks, is that they won't be able to catch breath properly, due to the laughing fit after Shagrat has tickled them thoroughly.

I remember a line from Lord of the Rings where it was either Merry or Pippin stating they only ate the gray bread the orcs gave them because they didn't know the source of the meat they were offered. The implication was Merry and Pippin thought the meat might be human or (even worse) orc.

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A world with several human-level sapient species is weird, though: Orcs eating humans isn't cannibalism, because they're different species, but they're still eating a sapient creature. I know I'm speaking from my particular cultural perspective, but that would probably be frowned upon as much as cannibalism. Yes, some of us humans eat dolphins or probably even apes, but despite how incredibly intelligent these animals are, they're not quite equivalent to, say, a dwarf, elf, orc, hobbit, ent etc. - and even so it's frowned upon by many cultures, far more so than just eating mammal or animal meat generally. Clearly, orcs don't have any such moral qualms about eating non-orc sapient species, though.

One thing I've noticed in the chunks of texts you referred to, is that although it does not specifically describe an Orc or Uruk endeavoring in cannibalism, the mentioning of 'licking blood of another from one's blade' is evident. This seems to refer to a certain type of cannibalism possibly taking place. I'll explain what I mean: There's many tribes and groups amongst Orcs (Uruks seem more joint together perhaps because of Saruman's Uruk-Hai), ranging throughout the Misty Mountains, north of the Misty Mountains (e.g. Angmar, Gundabad), to perhaps some in the Ered Luin, even throughout Eriador, and of course further East towards and around Mordor. It was Sauron that really managed to unite them into massive armies. If it wasn't Sauron or one of his chief servants (e.g. the Witch King of Black Numenoreans) Orcs seemed not nearly as much of a threat as they bickered amongst the tribes. The way Orcs are prone to start a quarrel amongst themselves, even when gathered into large armies, might suggest they're from different 'tribes'. A more animalistic way of 'showing dominance', a pride in their own tribe, or a mixture thereof could be why. After all, no Orc wants to be a snaga (low-life, slave), or even talked to like such, and it seems they will definitely remind others of their status less they show 'signs of weakness'. I think it's pretty easy to see that the moment an Orc or Uruk of status shows signs of weakness, they're basically digging their own graves waiting to be replaced by a more determined/assertive one. This all said, the 'cannibalism' suggested in these passages could be not a means of 'enjoying eating flesh of anything that lives and moves, even your own kind', but more a means of asserting dominance. A way of insulting the opponent just defeated, and letting his clansmen know the same fate could await them if they dare stand against the victor. Shagrat was a chief Orc in a place of importance in Mordor, in Cirith Ungol which guarded one of the few passes into Sauron's land. Yet he and his direct kin (clan-members) had to do with intermingling of other Orc and Uruk clans, no doubt. To keep his status he probably had to 'reassert' his status more than a few times before the scene we read about/saw in the movies. By the time the books describe he was 'licking the blood of his fallen opponent from his blade' might be that he had done this so often enough, it had become 2nd nature to him; reasserting his dominance, to others but perhaps also to himself, in a place where his authority would be continually challenged by Orcs and Uruks from the other tribes safeguarding Cirith Ungol. And I think this may have been more common, at least amongst Orc chiefs, than we're being told (which isn't really that much). And one more point I'd like to make is on the actual movie scene "Looks like meat's back on the menu, boys". It may not be book-accurate, but perhaps it wasn't terribly far off either. It was White-Hand Uruk-Hai versus Mordor Orcs. The Uruk-Hai were in many ways superior to regular Orcs, in that they were more man-like in posture, could traverse long distances even in sunlight, had better armour and were truly bred for war. Now, call 'em close-minded but they'd probably despise hanging around 'inferior Orcs'. When the Mordor Orcs, again, challenged the Uruk-Hai, Ugluk had to once again reassert himself and his boys. I think by this time he had gotten sick of the Orcs, and said they the Fighting Uruk-Hai were being given man-flesh by Saruman as a means to say "and you lesser Orcs have to make do with scraps". Keep in mind here, the Uruk-Hai and Orcs all had been running for days with little to no real food. If you, a (hopefully) disciplined decent human, get grumpy of little food plus rigorous physical demands...well, imagine where blood-thirsty, warlike Uruks and Orcs would get to. Both parties then on edge, I can imagine Ugluk was getting to a point here where he, and his Uruk-Hai brothers, were sorely considering to get rid of the Orcs altogether due to the Orcs' continuing challenging, moaning and complaining. When an Orc, in the movies, was about to 'chop off' some of the Halflings 'for a mouthful', Ugluk not only acted out of frustration but also out of obedience to Saruman and pride of being a soldier of the White Hand. I think it's fair to say that, with the tension built up, hunger pestering their guts, and their pride challenged by lesser Orcs, the Uruk-Hai took it out by eating that one Orc to satisfy all their needs at the time: filling their guts as well as reasserting their dominance over the Orcs after those had hurt their pride. (I honestly think the lesser Orcs would've ended up all dead just by the Uruk-Hai had the Rohirrim not intervened that same night). So, quick recap: I would suggest the Orcs in general avoid cannibalism; it is more the feud between ranks where this could be taking place on the occasion. A form of cannibalism as a means of several to re-establish the hierarchy.

perhaps its because they were eating maggoty bread for three stinking days

I personally believe Orcs to be cannibalistic in some instances, its probably a case by case instance, an orc who kills his own gang and eats them would be seen as untrustworthy but eating orcs of another gang would probably be ok.

Shagrat: "No. This fellow ain't dead!"

Looks like video's back on watch list, boys!

I’m going to make a case for orcs, at least under Sauron, were absolutely cannibals, but it was done on an industrial and institutional scale. First off, in universe Sauron is all about efficiency and optimization over the sake of everything else, and I can’t imagine him allowing a soldier to cease being useful after death when you can make them continue to be so with a few moral shortcuts. Secondly, and this is admittedly drifting out of the written work, but Tolkien was a soldier in the First World War, and during said war there were rumors and propaganda that the Kaiser was “recycling” the war dead into various things on an industrial scale. (As an aside, this rumor was so pervasive that it actually ended up affecting the Second World War, as when the allied command initially got reports of similar things actually happening in the death camps, they wrote them off as exaggerations.) Tolkien, as a soldier, would have doubtlessly heard of and possibly believed these rumors, and given that the forces of Mordor heavily draw inspiration from the hellish industrialized warfare he experienced, it’s quite likely that he had that in mind when writing those two scenes. As for the Uruks being insulted? It’s easily explained as a combination of them perceiving an insult to Saruman (calling him a liar) as well as themselves (insinuating that the “elite” troops just get the same basic rations as the grunts)

looks like Darth's back on the menu, boys

In the Two towers chapter "of herbs and stewed rabbit", before they meet Faramir. Sam finds a "ring still scorched by fire" "place of dreadful feast and slaughter". Sam says nothing about it because he doesnt want Gollum to find the bones. Its not clear if the bones are orc or human, but it is possible that it is some kind of cannibalistic site. Perhaps Tolkien consider Orcs eating humans as cannibalistic.

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Orcs are essentially amoral creatures. I really don't doubt that they'd go cannibal without too much provocation. What's interesting to me is that in our "real world" we have exactly one sentient species. Definitionally a cannibal is "a human who eats the flesh of other humans" or "a creature who feeds on the flesh of it's own species." In a fantasy setting, is a sentient being eating any other sentient bring cannibalism? Is it any more or less reprehensible for an orc to eat another orc than to eat a Human, Elf, or Hobbit? It starts to get weird with different kinds of intelligent life.

Yes, the most important thing to take away from the iconic quote is the thought of if orcs, indeed, have menus.

Uruk Hai were organized athletes basically high all day grog, a stimulant/possible euphoria and pain blocker. Plus they were very proud, had a strong sense of brotherhood and had a sense of security.

I don't think the exchange between the uruk-hai and mordor orcs in the two towers implies that there is a cannibalism taboo between orcs. I dont think Grishnak's "it's orc -flesh they eat, I warrant"" is insulting the uruk-hai bc of a taboo but because it would mean that the uruk-hai 1) are proud that they get good food when they actually don't because 2) they're too stupid to notice that Saruman deceived them with orc meat. I think it's obvious from the surrounding clues which you cited that orcs are very much ok with eating one another, but man-flesh probably just tastes better to them; hence the humiliation by Grishnak. Shelob had a similar thing going on w different meat preferences, and it is clear by Shagrat's (IIRC) words regarding the discovery of the poisioned Frodo that men are "sweeter meats" than normal orc flesh (for Shelob). Judging by general orc behavior, e.g., Cirith Ungol, orcs pretty much mostly just get along at the behest of their superiors' threats of harm, or promises of meat and slaughter. I think they wouldn't mind eating and killing each other if there wasn't usually a whip to their back preventing them from doing as they wish.

Love the advice at the end and love the vids.

"Wait does this mean Orcs have menus" -Darth Gandalf

I certainly wouldn't put it beyond them.

Various texts as well as those quotes brought up in the video seem to indicate that Orcs may at times eat members of other races (a captive Elf, Man or Dwarf), in the HoME texts there is reference: "For one thing Morgoth had achieved was to convince the Orcs beyond refutation that the Elves were crueller than themselves, taking captives only for 'amusement', or to eat them (as the Orcs would do at need)." In the Nature of Middle-earth which published some never seen before materials there is reference to Orcs at times drinking the blood of their enemies (possibly in some sort of ritualistic manner) or simply when they need to survive they would kill and eat a prisoner, but we know since The Hobbit that they took slaves and prisoners to work for them as well, that they eat: "For goblins eat horses and ponies and donkeys (and other much more dreadful things), and they are always hungry." Various things like threats of putting other Orc to the pot are mainly that, threats, licking the blade of the blood may also be this sort of savage way of experiencing this metaphorical bloodlust, this rush of killing other living things, establishing dominance. Orcs often live in very harsh conditions, but usually they eat the same normal things other races do: ""No, they eat and drink, Sam. The Shadow that bred them can only mock, it cannot make: not real new things of its own. I don't think it gave life to the orcs, it only ruined them and twisted them; and if they are to live at all, they have to live like other living creatures. Foul waters and foul meats they'll take, if they can get no better, but not poison. They've fed me, and so I'm better off than you. There must be food and water somewhere in this place." -- The Return of the King, Book VI, Chapter I: The Tower of Cirith Ungol They cook and prepare their foods as well :), they eat bread and not only meat. "C[ommon]E[ladrin] *khōn-, khond- was only used of the physical heart, and that was not regarded as or supposed to be a centre of either emotion or thought. Thus when Treebeard uses the adjectives morimaitë, sincahonda ' black-handed, flint-hearted' of the Orks, these were both physical in reference - as indeed were all the other adjectives, whatever they may have implied with regard to Orkish minds and characters. Sincahonda referred to their immense staying power in exertion, marching, running, or climbing, which gave rise to the jesting assertion that their hearts must have been made of some exceedingly hard substance; it did not mean pitiless. The last adjective 'blood-thirsty' (serkilixa) was also literal: the Orks actually drank the blood of their victims. A compound of similar kind meaning 'hard-hearted, pitiless', would have been in Quenya ondórëa." The Nature of Middle-earth, footnote Of course Nature of Middle-earth is another collection of writings and versions of notes, the accusation that Uruk-hai eat other Orcs does seem to be treated like a grave insult, it's also used by Grishnakh to slander the Isengarders in this sort of intertribal antagonisms but Orcs usually do seem to have notions of acceptable and unacceptable behavior, they are capable of social interactions, they can share things, help each other, even honor their word but are also often treacherous and selfish. The Orcs at times fight among themselves but we don't see them ever trying to cannibalize their own race corpses, usually they prefer Man (on the other hand the Wargs, their so called friend have no such trouble: "Said] Gandalf. 'Grievous is the fall of your men; but you shall see that at least the wolves of the mountains do not devour them. It is with their friends, the Orcs, that they hold their feast: such indeed is the friendship of their kind. Come!'" BUT of course Wargs are more animal like they are basically demonic wolves so they'll eat all carrion :) Orcs having some standards of behavior also is shown by how they frown upon leaving comrades behind (while hypocritically leaving Ufthak to Shelob's webs fearing to interfere with her) but at times they may acknowledge deals, even acknowledge the rules of parlay (at least they stop shooting arrows to let Aragorn talk at Hornburg when he gives sign to talks).

I can on top of my head remember the passage from Hobbit that says their are cannibals eating flesh of their kin.

I have always read the exchange between Ugluk and Grishnak differently. Grishnak belittles Saruman (and Ugluk) by telling him Saruman was probably feeding them Orc flesh as in inferior type of meat, meat that everyone else gets to eat so nothing special. And that very strongly sounds to me like cannibalism. Perhaps not on the scale of orcs being slaughtered to be eaten but at least to be eaten if available. Orcs lead a violent and often short life so there should be orc corpses to be used as one source of food next to others. In the hobbit we learn that orcs eat horses and ponies and many other more terrible things as well. Okay, could be frogs or insects but I have always seen that as a reference to other intelligent creatures. But that might just be my personal interpretation...

What if Saruman never betrayed Sauron and had truly fell under his sway becoming his apprentice such as Sauron himself did for Morgoth. Would he become an even more dangerous threat than he was in the original timeline?

just a thought, but Mordor doesn't seem to be a bastion of agricultural development. its portrayed as an industrialized hell hole- so I would bet starvation is common and cannibalism is considered a normal way of getting food.

Great video! I don’t agree with the analysis that Ugluk was enraged by being accused of cannibalism because it was taboo. I think it was rather the fact that Grishnakh denied them status, implied that they agree being trucked and thus insulting them.

Gollum also mentions that Goblin/Orc meat is mostly dry and tough, much preferring fish over dead goblinoid things. I'd say Orcs, Uruks, Uruk-hai and Goblins are indeed cannibals, but only if there isn't much else to choose from.

Thanks for the video...I am feeling a little peckish now, though.

The leading theory on how orcs were created is elves were made to eat other elves. That the orcs & uruk hai fight over accusations of cannibalism is a nice layer of irony.

Even Orcs have standards

Yes, they are.

Funny enough technically cannibalism is not illegal, but everyway that you'd have access to 2 "man flesh" is lol

If humans were orks it would be like "eating Humans? Never, but neanderthals on the other hand..." Orcs elves and humans are related so it's not much better than straight up cannibalism.

Gollum is definitely a cannibal. Usually babies.

How do you think they stay supplied on the march?

I'd go with Shagrat is just using it as his thing to bully other Orcs. The objection the other Orcs have suggest it isn't the done thing and they aren't cannibals by default. There may be orc cannibals but they are the exception due to necessity or as an individual trait.

I only eat elves, so I'm essentially vegetarian.

Aren't Uruk-Hai a crossbreed between orcs and men? If so, then eating men would be cannibalistic to them as well as eating orcs. IDK, maybe when they eat other orcs, it transubstantiates into non-maggoty bread.

Does seem that way, "Meats back on the menu boys!"

I think Orcs may be cannibalistic, but it may be taboo to at least cannibalize orcs within their own tribe.

Food is food

*happy orc cannibal noises*

Given our own history, I suspect cannibalism is not that unusual among orcs although it's probably a lower status thing. Eating humans is a higher status thing. It's like the difference between eating low grade ground beef vs Kobe beef.

I'm hungry now

wait, but are Orcs and Uruk-hai the same species ? i know Uruk are sort off orcs, but are they distant enough for it to be considered the same species

I mean why would Sauron want an army of human eaters? Like that doesn't seem like a good way to make people surrender to you.

Subbed

I had the impression their tribes and local cultures are quite different and some were cannibals while others are not.The Mordor orcs at last threaten others with cannibalism... and many orcs certainly eat men, others despise those who are cannibals... or rather orcs who eat orcs, which is an understandable attitude.

Good video!

We know from Gollumn that Orcs do not taste good... At all

What game were you using for the vidoes

2k subscriber jump, not bad at all

I hereby solemnly promise to not eat people!

Well, the books are no longer canon. So it doesnt matter what is written there.

Looks like meat’s back on the menu boys!

This is why I only eat chicken

Please don't eat people! Other people would think you are weird"! Thnx for that...

Why is cannibalism morally bad? This is a legitimate question not a joke on my part. If there was a global world War and a famine for example and I was a commander I wouldn't have any problem feeding my men the flesh of the dead enemy. No seriously I honestly don't understand why cannibalism is morally wrong. If anything people should let themselves be eaten if they died to feed the group in a war case scenario so they could continue fighting. I'm seriously confused. Eating human flesh is no more wicked than when we eat animals. Scientifically speaking. 🤨🤨🤨🤨 That's not a condone or advocacy where you actively go around and eat people on a whim. I mean like out of military desparation.

:)