Pinned post for Q&A :)

Carmania v. Cap Trafalgar: When Hotels Go to War - Round 2

"three-legged, drunken elephant tIhat had started running downhill and suddenly discovered gravity was not, in fact, it's friend." This is a very well written episode. I enjoyed your sentence gymnastics.

My only disappointment in this episode is that Drach couldn't find a moment to cram in the voyage of the SMS Seeadler, Imperial Germany's armed windjammer. Or if you want to be more romantic about it, the last hurrah of the Age of Sail.

"Don't mind that ship over there, that's just us".

As shown by the _Hopkins_ , the US 4"/50 was a hard hitting and deadly gun in the hands of a well trained Crew. The naval armed guard was led by Lt. (j.g.) Kenneth Martin Willett, and he drilled his crew constantly in loading and firing. He also trained volunteer merchant mariners in ammunition passing and as backup loaders. The standard rate of fire for a well trained crew was nine rounds a minute. According to one of the gunnery officers on _Steir_ who was directing fire from the forward 5.9" guns thought its rangefinder, and was closely observing return fire from _Hopkins_ , that ship fired 16 rounds in the first minute, an astounding rate of fire for a hand loaded weapon. Even as more and more men were being mowed down by the 20mm cannon aboard _Steir_ , others ran to take their place, most of them being killed after getting off a few rounds. Finally, after the intense six minute battle, there were no more left to man the still intact gun, with the few survivors taking to a single lifeboat. The German ship moved in closer to asses the situation, sure that resistance had ceased. They didn't count on Merchant Marine Cadet Edwin Joseph O'Hara. The survivors in the lifeboat watched in amazement as the mortally wounded O'Hara somehow dragged himself to the gun. There were still three shells in the ready rack. O'Hara dragged all three shells over to the gun, hiding behind remnants of the shot up gun tub. He must have been in great pain as he lifted the first round and rammed it home. He was able to reach down to the firing pedal and pressed it home with his hand. The first round was on its way before the Germans knew what hit them. OHara repeated the feat with the second round in about nine seconds. He had the last round loaded and either fired the gun and it exploded, or the gun emplacement was hit by a 5.9" round from _Steir_ . Either way, when the smoke had cleared, neither O'Hara nor the gun were to be seen. Although this is disputed, it's possible O'Hara's last round may have severed the steering controls of the _Stier_ . Drifting and unable to respond to the helm, the captain realized his ship was doomed. With the supply ship standing by, the crew was moved to the supply ship in lifeboats, then _Stier_ was sunk with scuttling charges. Merchant Marine Academy Cadet O'Hara, only along for a training cruise, was awarded the Merchant Marine Distinguished Service Medal while Lt. (j.g.) Kenneth Martin Willett, USNR, was awarded the Navy Cross for this action. Very few ships, naval or merchant marine, have ever fought such a gallant battle in the finest naval tradition of sink the enemy or be sunk trying.

Cap Trafalgar and RMS Carmania looking for an open space to duke it out is basically every Dragonball Z fight.

As a US Merchant Mariner seeing this on my dash made very happy

3:27 Shout out to SS Red Oak Victory! Though it was not an armed auxiliary nor has any notoriety, it is one of the few remaining victory ships still extant. It was named after a town in Iowa (where I'm from) that had a disproportionately large number of casualties in WWII. Thanks for including it on your video!

Personally I would have gone with the title: armed merchant ships: when literal hotels go to war

The results of combat between commerce raiders kind of remind me of this saying about knife fights: "The loser dies in the street, the winner dies on the way to the hospital." With the lethality of the weaponry in WW1 and WW2, and their lack of armor and damage control, any confrontation with an enemy that can fight back is extremely risky for a commerce raider, and even if you "win" you are still likely to lose.

"Cap Trafalgar and RMS Carmania exist" *Insert Spider-Man Pointing at Spider-Man meme*

The line about a 3 legged elephant and gravity had me burst out laughing in the middle of the office. Thanks Drachs

Me at the start: "this one might be boring." 29 minutes later Me: "More!" Great vid as always.

American liberty ship: outgunned and gun crew getting slaughtered, captain: good, it’s a fair fight

My second cousin was Chief engineer on the "Arabistan" when she was sunk by the German raider "Michel". He and a 17 year old Deck Cadet were the only survivors. They were picked up the following morning by the "Michel" and were subsequently handed over to the Japanese. Only my cousin survived the prison camp.

Was there ever a braver or more determined crew than that of the SS Stephen Hopkins? Captain Buck was posthumously awarded the Merchant Marine Distinguished Service Medal for his actions, as was US Merchant Marine Academy cadet Edwin Joseph O'Hara, who single-handedly fired the last shots from the ship's 4-inch gun after everyone else had been killed. Navy reservist Lt. (j.g.) Kenneth Martin Willett, gun boss for the 4-inch gun, was posthumously awarded the Navy Cross. In my book every man on that shipped deserved the Medal of Honor.

SMS Seeadler (Ger: sea eagle) was a three-master steel-hulled sailing ship. She was one of the last fighting sailing ships to be used in war when she served as a merchant raider with Imperial Germany in World War I. Built as the British-flagged Pass of Balmaha, she was captured by the German submarine SM U-36, and in 1916 converted to a commerce raider. As Seeadler she had a successful raiding career, capturing and sinking 15 ships in 225 days until she was wrecked, in September 1917, in French Polynesia.

Well, one example of the large size of merchant ships and passenger ships vs warships is how the RMS Olympic sunk SM -U103. She attempted to ram the submarine, only to have the submarine dive out of harm's way... then get thrashed by her massive propellors. It helped that the torpedoes the submarine had were defective. Olympic return to port with two dents.

My father took me around a visiting Russian Cargo vessel in the Port of Avonmouth in the early 60's and pointed out that all the Derrick winch mounting positions had the same bolting down arrangement as would be used to mount a Gun and could be converted for such a purpose in between 12 and 24 hours. I later learned that this was quite a common feature on some Russian built merchant vessels until the late 70's.

Jervis Bay was balls out double brave, Every year she’s celebrated in the Scarborough naval displays.

A salute to the AMC HMS Rawalpindi and Captain Cloverley Kennedy RN, whose reported last order was, on engaging Gneisenau and Scharnhorst 'We shall stand and fight them both, and we shall be sunk, and that will be that. Goodbye!'.

The History Guy did a video about the SS Stephen Hopkins and her one and only battle with the Stier.

"Additionally, the engines were dying, water was coming in, and the rudder control systems, somewhere deep in the ship, were decorating a bulkhead..." Yikes! (25:11)

My father's training ship after joining the RCNVR was the merchant cruiser HMS Voltaire, a former passenger liner. He served in her in early 1940, the exact dates unknown. The Voltaire was lost on 4 April 1941 in a battle with the German merchant raider Thor about 900 nm west of the Cape Verde Islands. By this time my father was "safely" serving in corvettes on convoy escort duty.

Alternative lesson: stick rangefinder and a gun with the longest optimal range you can find to the stern of the ship and keep your distance while shelling the enemy

Aww I was hoping you would talk about the Wolf, the infamous German Raider that spent over a year at sea causing havoc for the Allies. But man, there is something about these lightly armed and unarmored tin cans slugging it out that should have a movie or something made about them.

Fantastic video as always Drach, love your work. The fight between the Carmania and the Not Carmania reminds me of the "So I started blasting" meme. Hopefully in the future we dont have a battle with cruise ships lobbing missiles at each other.

Speaking of Merchant raiders, I highly recommend the book called "The Wolf" about arguably the most successful merchant raider of WW1, the SMS Wolf. It is a fantastic tale about a fantastic ship. Also a good candidate for a Drachinifel Guide or special

One of the ships I sailed on had a supply of dazzle paint, a de-gaussing ring to combat magnetic mines and, as Drach said, strengthened decks for guns.

Although the U.S. Merchant Marine suffered a per capita casualty rate greater than those of the U.S. Armed Forces, merchant mariners who served in World War II were denied such veterans recognition until 1988 when a federal court ordered it.

Have you considered doing a video of the "Shetland Bus" operations? It was the boat's which covertly ran from the Shetland Islands (most northern British lands) to Norway for the duration of WW2. They ran Norwiegen fishing vessels until gifted 3 American Sub-Chasers in 43/44 & were involved in some extremely interesting operations. They towed the underwater Chariots which were to be used against Tirpitz across however on reaching Norway ran into bad weather in a fjord & they broke free. This was just one operation & they were usually transporting agents, guns, explosives etc etc. Although they weren't actually RN ships, they were run by the Admiralty & under the command of an RN Officer. The ship's mostly being crewed by Norwegian volunteers. It's an interesting subject & I would like to see your take on it.

The Odina and a Indian Navy Bathurst class corvette (whose name I forget) manned by Aussies vs 2 Japanese merchant cruisers (who's name I couldn't spell) in the Indian Ocean , would be another good one to cover

As a retired engineer (USMM) from the West Coast I'd like to point out the Engine Cadet made the last kill shot from the gun on the SS Stephen Hopkins, a West Coast Liberty Ship. That ship achieved more than the entire US Navy by sinking the German Raider.

Carmania: "You can't be me, I'm me"

Another good battle to feature between armed merchant vessels would be the two Japanese armed merchant cruisers Aikoku Maru and Hokoku Maru against the Dutch tanker Ondina and the Royal Indian Navy corvette Bengal on November 11, 1942.

I've always said the way to take on the Somali pirates would be to take a luxury yacht, armor the hell out of it, and fit it with Hidden naval artillery and radar-guided gatling guns of the type found on modern warships. Just cruise up and down the Somali coast blasting disco music with all the lights on. When the pirates come out to play, make a very bloody example out of them and make the others think twice. Easy target, or bait? This is also where some of our old battleships could come in. We know the ports the pirates operate out of, for every raid lob a few 16" shells at their facilities. It's not like a few AKs and RPGs are going to do anything more than bounce off battleship armor. The general population would get really tired of them really fast.

This reminds me of the Oregon files by Clive cussler. The question of how many guns can I hide on my ship before anyone notices continues!

I find the careers of the armed merchant raiders of both world wars really interesting. Thanks for posting this.

The " three legged , drunken Elephant " line was class writing .

It would be interesting to hear your analysis of the Union-Castle liner, RMMV (HMAMC) Carnarvon Castle’s encounter with the Thor. Equally interesting would be a look at the voyage of the Llangibby Castle and the Arundel Castle in their roles. Llangibby managed to steam over 2,000 miles minus her stern after being torpedoed, and the Arundel Castle did a lot of trooping, but then was involved in voyages to the Skaggerak as a “repatriation” ship carrying wounded and sick German PoWs. Her sister, Windsor Castle was sunk by aerial torpedo 80 miles North of Algiers carrying troops ...

Two cruise ships blasting away at each other: the whole thing was so dangerous, why is it I feel like laughing?

Ah yes, that moment when an US merchant ship screwed up a German commerce raider, and that other moment when a Jerry screwed up an Aussie Leander.

Painted up east indiamen? Time for you to Suffren my puns.

About fifteen - twenty years ago, I met a WW2 veteran who told me an interesting story about being a member of a gun crew on a civilian merchant ship. (He was U.S. Navy.) His ship was in a port on the Western coast (or maybe North Western coast) of Australia. He probably said the name of the port, but I don't recall it. The ship had an engine problem which required it to remain an extra day or two, when a report came in of a Japanese auxiliary cruiser raiding in the Indian Ocean. The ship's captain refused to leave port until the Japanese raider had been dealt with or had left the area, but he failed to notify the ship's corporate owners that he was remaining in port, which probably would have cost them considerable port fees. The captain told the commander of the gun crew that the ship's radio was broken, but that he had radio'd from a shore station that the ship hadn't left port, which simply wasn't true. So when the vessel was scheduled to arrive at its next destination; after several days and when it didn't answer any radio calls, it was declared overdue and presumed lost, because the Japanese auxiliary cruiser had attacked and sunk a ship or two. So eventually word came in that it was safe to leave and no one thought anything of the delay; except how boring it had been, until they arrived at their next destination. It was then that the U.S. Navy gun crew found that they had been declared missing in action. For a few days they couldn't receive their pay, though the gentleman who told me this story said this was cleared up pretty quickly. A much bigger problem was their families weren't notified that they were still alive for about three months. He told me a letter he sent home through U.S. military channels in India beat the official notification from the U.S. Navy to his family by about a week. In between the M.I.A. notice and sometime after the declaration they were still alive, this man and his fellow gun crew members didn't receive any more mail from home, for the obvious reason that you don't write letters to someone you think is dead. He told me his gun crew latter trained the ship's own sailors to man the gun and he was eventually transferred to regular duty aboard a warship, but said the worst time of the war for him had been when he learned what his parents had been put through by that false report.

I've always had a fascination about german raiders ever since reading a book about the raider Atlantis back in the'70s. Would love to see an individual video series on all the raiders/Q-ships and the variations in guises. Every Drach vid is just a teaser for wanting much more on each subject, thus many lost hours revisiting books i've forgotten about or purchasing something new.......Well done.

I recall reading an article in (of all things) Reader's Digest about the battle between the Carmania and the Cap Trafalgar. The Cap Trafalgar's captain was, according to the article, a fan of Admiral Nelson.

Armed merchantman have made something of a comeback near the Horn of Africa in the past decade albeit the armarment tends to be of the M14/M16, M60 or Ma Deuce variaty.

Imagine if WW3 broke out and they started bolting AEGIS systems to Carnival cruise ships and sending them on patrol in the South Pacific.

Interesting that in modern times highly effective and long ranged anti ship cruise missiles could be easily hidden aboard any merchant ship making them just as dangerous as any real warship.

You need to take a look at SMS Seeadler (1888) and Felix von Luckner, one of the last fighting sailing ships and a WW1 era merchant raider.

HMAS Sydney, a haunting image, slowly disappearing into the darkness on fire, never to be seen again. The Hopkins story should be a movie. At least some R&R in Brazil at the end of it all... well deserved.

Suggestion for a video: Protection of ships from blast damage from their own guns. Eg. the standard intro video featuring main guns firing - many times I have replayed that to try and work out what all the bits and pieces of the ship flying apart when the big guns recoil. Also I recall many breif mentions of ships being unable to deploy guns as intended without self-harm. Perhaps worth a 5 minute vid on this topic? Love your work BTW Drac, Thanks.

...and yet now, we are beginning to see a re-emergence of small arms on commercial ships with the increase of piracy in some shipping routes.

How about doing a presentation on the Battle of Sluys, the awesome naval battle that kicked off the 100 years war that no one expected Edward III 's England to surviive? I cant think of a more important beginning to England's naval prowess than Sluys yet I can find so little about the battle.

My grandfather was a merchant marine in WWII. I heard stories of how merchant marines would sometimes take cargo, a tank for instance, and strap it to the deck to give the ship something more than wishful thinking for defense.

This is a subject I have been waiting for and did actually request. Good to hear some of the history of these ships but I am surprised that the German raider 'Atlantis' of WW2 wasn't mentioned as I thought it was the most notorious of the breed by racking up a high score of sunken tonnage.

Just a shoutout for the NS Savannah you've got shown at 27:49 - one of the very few nuclear powered merchant vessels ever built and operated. Not a warship, but from what I understand having pretty much the engineroom and reactor plant analogous to one of the Long Beach CGN9's as her power plant. I'd love to hear your five minute guide to her, even though she's not a warship - although very much a national project.

Thank you for helping many of us, in remembering of History and of the People that lived it.

Surprised you didn't mention the Kormoran in this article. She managed to surprise and sink the HMAS Sydney, as you know.

Imagine how odd that would be if RMS Olympic was armed and we got to see the Kronprinz fight it. Two four funnelled luxury liners duking it out. The insanity of these ships designed for luxury being gutted by gunfire. Also it may have been fitting for the Olympic to go that way given how the odd ways the Titanic and Britannic went

Sorry link, I cant give credit. Come back when you're a little... MMMMMMMMMM Richer!

Awesome episode !!! My Father while on recruiting duty for the U.S.M.C.(having all of North Texas)in 1940-1942. Was given extra duty(in Galveston Texas). Training Sailors in drill, military customs and regulations. He said it was all the training the Sailors received, before being assigned a ship. So the Sailors were given hair cuts, uniforms, and a week of training before being sent to sea. Most do not understand the lack of preparations for WWII in the U.S.A.

This is fascinating. I have read a lot about naval warfare, but have never come across merchant ship v. merchant ship. I hope you will be doing "Seeadler" soon in your excellent series. And the Other Battle of Lissa, William Hostes' astonishing victory in the Napoleonic War.

Can you do a video on Olympic? She was a key player in rescuing the crew of HMS Audacious, vital in Allied Victory as a Troopship, only Ocean Liner to sink an enemy warship when she rammed U-103, and shrugged off a torpedo by glaring at it so hard that it became a dud.

Hopefully to be followed by an episode on the SMS Seeadler, an armed merchant cruiser, and the last sail powered warship.

Do a vid on USCGC Taney. That ship saw a heck alot action during WW2 and had a long career after the war, not too shabby for a Coast Guard cutter.

I've always found it completely unacceptable that not a single company makes model kits of any of the WWII German raiders. I would think at the very least Kormoran, Atlantis, and Pinguin would sell quite well.

SMS Trafalgar, a German liner, pretending to be the British RMS Carmania, hiding in ambush off Argentina. *PARKOUR!*

Can you make a video about a German merchant raider SMS Möwe?

We've heard a lot about Western Naval Warfare from many videos and channels. So, my humble request to you is to review naval warfare in Asia, particularly Indian carrier operations in the 1971 Indo-Pak War and Indian missile attacks in the same. Attempt #1

Now I've heard of the engagements with Jervis Bay and Rawldipindi, but I hadn't heard of the third AMC fighting a german surface unit before...thank you

Superb Video. Thanks so much. There's as Piratical aspect to these ships which I really enjoy. Loved the two stories too as I hadn't heard either before. Please do more videos on Q-ships and Merchant Raiders/Armed Merchantmen. The Odina and Bengal vs the Jap Commerce Raiders Aikoku Maru and Hokoku Maru is also a fantastic story, worthy of a movie. Cheers from NZ.

24:00 -- *SO YEAH,* I have often wondered where the WW2-era song "Praise the Lord (And Pass The Ammunition)" got its inspiration. This story sounds like a darn good fit. "Down went the gunner / a bullet was his fate / down went the gunner / and then the gunner's mate / up jumped the sky pilot, gave the boys a look / manned the gun himself and tossed aside his Book ... " The song is dated to 1942, but other legends place the inspiration for its lyric to December 1941, and the attack on Pearl Harbor. SEE ALSO: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/jJhiZreGlZmWdHk.html

I only learned about Armed Merchant Cruisers and Raiders within the last ten years when I bought a game, “Atlantic Fleet”. The German ship Pinquin, Atlantis, and Kormoran are in the game. Kormoran is the best armed of the three. This video was the most informative one I’ve watched so far on the topic. Thanks Doctor! “The History Guy” has a very good video on the SS Stephen Hopkins Liberty Ship battle. Incredible perseverance and bravery shown by those merchant marine sailors.

This reminds me of that time RMS Olympic sank a U-boat that one time

Funny you should mention that armed merchant ships aren't very well known, though I'm sure you're right. My first introduction to naval warfare when I was a kid was stories of WWI Q-ships.

I recall reading a book about a German merchant Raider that was sinking cargo ships in the Pacific and taking the crews as prisoners, eventually having a boatload of prisoners from various nations in extremely ill health, for a year or more too. I think it was WW1. Wish I could remember the name of the book. edit: 'Under Ten Flags' and 'The Wolf' mentioned below, I'll look em up.

I will never forget the story of yhe Dutch Merchantmen Ondina who was sailing with the Corvette HMIS Bengal who took on two Japanese armed merchant Cruisers and sank one. Bengal and Ondina were heading for India when they were intercepted, inniatally Ondina turned to get away and Bengal moved to engage to buy the Oil tanker time. However when the Captain of Ondina realized they would never be able to outrun the Cruises so turned again to stand and fight together with Bengal (Ondina only carried a single outdated 120 mm gun and a few machine guns). In the brawl Ondina managed to place a shell right in Hokaku Maru ammo storage wich set it alight like a Christmas tree. The Bengal fought like a beast but ran out of ammo and turned to get out of fire, Aikoku Maru managed to heavily damage the Ondina afterwards and actually forced the crew to abandon ship after ammunition for the 120 ran out. (The Japanese then fired on the life boats with machine guns but eventually went to rescue the survivors of Hokaku Maru). While Ondina was thought lost it's crew actually climbed back onboard after the Japanese left and managed to put out the fires and return to Australia safely. Truely one of my favorite war stories

Meanwhile, Chinese crews ramming 9000 tonner destroyers with 120,000 tonner container ships in 2018: *Write that down*

The second, and less well know, victory involving Trafalgar.

Fight against Liberty ship "Stephen Hopkins" is quite interesting, but what about kriegsmarine auxiliary cruiser Thor (Displacement 3.862 tons, second smallest WW2 german auxiliary cruiser) and its fight against British auxiliary cruiser HMS Carnarvon Castle (20,122 tons) and HMS Alcantara (22,200 tons), plus sinking the HMS Voltaire (13.245 tons)?

Nice photo there at the end of the NS Savannah. When I was at Maine Maritime Academy I had a professor who sailed on the Savannah for a couple years as Chief Mate.

Lesson: if you want to be a effective merchant raider you need at last one long range gun which will outrange the enemy merchant (fast firing) guns.

Thank you for this video. I knew of the battle between the Carmania and the Cap Trafalgar but not the one between the Stephen Hopkins and the Stier. A liberty ship fighting Liberty.

My maternal grandfather emigrated to Australia post-WW2 on the HMAS Kanimbla, which has been an AMC during the war.

I served on the modern day equivelent of a armed merchant called the USS Camden(AOE-2). Large, fast, and equipped with 8 missiles and 2 CIWS guns, this ship could take on 1 of anything for a short battle. But, we were always tagged behind the stern of a carrier when deployed or in "combat zones" so the chances of us actually being in battle were very remote. However, the armament was nice to have, just in case.

I am looking at my father's sketch of a Q ship drawn during the Great War (unusually not dated)-in this case, HMS Iris taking on a German submarine and two cruisers. The vessel is tiny and I guess the two guns he drew had been disguised as deck cargo. Disguised merchantmen did have a period of overrated 'popularity'. I think he used the name of one of the 1915 Flower class sloop (cabbage class or herbaceous borders), but they were not Q ships and dad's drawing was of a tiny mastless coaster, very fanciful (and somewhat suicidal taking on three vessels at once).

Once again the training and determination of the crew play a more important part in a battle instead of the technical specifications.

Ocean Liners are my 2nd favorite kind of ship,their stories are so interesting in peace time and wartime

The NS Savannah is an interesting choice of image for an archetypal 1950's merchant ship.

Hi... I seem to remember that the ship Tarenfells. was impounded in Goa for the duration of the war ? but was eventually sunk by a small band of retired British cavalry officers..... and, that they made a film about the incident entitled.. The Sea wolfs ?

Long ago I read a novel on the exploits of the German raider Orion during WW2. Armed with 6 x 5.9 inch WW1 vintage cannons, plus smaller weapons, torpedo tubes, and several hundred mines and several float planes with a 13 knot top speed, it was very successful, it ranged over the seas as far south as NZ where it laid several minefields that sunk several merchant ships. It's boilers used seawater so had to be regularly scraped of salt deposits inside. It was coal fired. It sometimes had hundreds of prisoners from sunk ships onboard. Great novel.

I have been waiting for this video for quite a while. So happy.

Can you make a video about the dutch gunboats "soemba & flores" AKA the terrible twins? Get some love for the royal dutch navy⚓⚓

Perhaps my favourite part of naval warfare, it just has 'everything'

Perfect timing! Earlier today I was actually looking for armed merchant raider videos & ended up watching the Kormoran v HMAS Sydney video (for the 3rd/4th time)! Excellent work! Your dedication & hard work is certainly very much appreciated! Thank You.

Improvised ways of war will always have a place in my heart. From regular units coming up with improvised stop gap solutions, to irregular militia and the improvised tanks of the Syrian war. Hell some where on KZfaq is a video of an old muzzle loading black powder cannon mounted on a truck bed being used in syria

"Any weapon more advanced than a rock" How droll, Drachinifel

I read about both of these engagements. Excellent video on these actions!