And the Marines still kicked butt..!

@@CritterCamSoCal more like marines helped a little in a 4vs1 battle. Name me a war/armed event where the US won alone against another country/faction

@@Seb-Storm the confederate states of American duh

@@Seb-Storm "Helped a little"? You are in need of some very basic education on the Pacific War. Wars won solely by the US: the Mexican-American War, the Spanish-American War, the Philippine-American War, dozens of wars against native Americans, and numerous smaller interventions in Latin America. Since then the US has fought mostly as part of coalitions.

@@Seb-Storm "helped a little" Yeah no Your wrong

that 6.5x55 is a sweetheart

It was the gun that needed to be lighter, not the round...

@@joshklaver47 It was both, the BAR in 30-06 is near uncontrollable at full auto, hard to control properly even with a bipod. In 6.5x55 you get both more rounds carried for a given weight, but larger magazines, and much more controllable on both rapid single fire, burst and full auto. It also shoots very, very flat.

@@TzunSu How many BARs have you fired? I trained on the M1918a2, which is full auto only with the selector shifting between high speed and low. In low it is perfectly controllable, especially when compared to an M14 on full auto, which is perfectly uncontrollable. All the BAR ammo was issued as armor piercing. I could chew right through a concrete wall with it. Its weight makes it controllable, but it is HEAVY. We ditched the bipods to save weight. We never used them anyway. I loved shooting it. The guys with M-1s who had to carry my extra mags in addition to their own ammo weren't nearly so fond of it.

@@mike03a3damn how old are you ?

Definitely, helps to watch in a loud workplace as well

They know their audience, lots of guys not using ear protection.

Theres 100 reasons to have cc and agreed I'm happy this has them, my adhd addled brain could not follow effectively without it and i dont wanna go back 10 seconds every few minutes

@@Mark--ll4vu exactly thought I was alone on this

Me too.

Seconded.

@@emergingloki agreed

Thirded

Do you mean like the usual way he formats his q&a's?

Meanwhile search for "Ask Ian" in the video tab works.

Not sure I can trust the judgement of someone who has no soul

@@Embassy_of_Jupiter a fair accurate assumption. After all...what do i have to lose? "You bastard i condemn your soul to hel.....dammit that wont work'

Came here to say this. My Swedish 6.5x55 is one of my favorite cartridges, and as a "human killer" it's perfectly adequate. The 30-06 is overkill.

As a balance between range, power weight etc. its a damned good cartridge. a semi auto in this cartridge would be damned good, and you could easily stuff it into LMGs etcs

I love my highly accurate and easy shooting Swedish Mauser

My grandfather was in Korea, told me he loved the Carbine because of ammo capacity and how handy it is.

Ditto for my father as well.

​@@gopnik9967 what did he not like about M1 eg. It wont shoot through much shelter to kill

Isnt that what 7.35 Carcano ended up being? Even with the bullet diameter slightly bigger, the bullet was still lighter and performed better.

They didn't do it because all their rifles were set up to feed the round nosed projectile

Saddly the issue with re engineering 6.5 with a Spitzer would have given problems with the operation of the Carcano rifle,the M1 shouldnt be hindered if you make a Spitzer 6.5 Carcano,the reason Italy still used the bottlenose then Is Just the matter of making the Carcano work right

@@nullanonsonemmenoiocosascr6676 Mine have shot Spitzer just fine, the issue is more often .264 vs .268 bullet which the Italian state production would not have. .264 (and even .263) Round nose have worked well in my carcanos as well though being "under sized" they have very long bearing surface which makes up for it a bit it seems.

After WWI the old 6.5mm cartridge had always been on the verge of being replaced. First with the 7.35×32mm of the Terni 1921 (a true intermediate cartridge) and then the 7.35X51mm, so there was no point in doing a modification that would have forced to modify all the sights of the existing rifles.

So did the Bren guns that I fired. They were the designated Section LMG for Infantry. Magazines reloaded by hand because we were only Army Cadets... But we'll worth the effort.

@@sullathehutt7720 I find it a lot more pleasant to shoot than 8mm Mauser.

@@sullathehutt7720 I'd tend to agree,although I've never had the honour to give a machine gun a go. I've owned and fired few different lee's and I own a Martini enfield in 303. I completely understand what you mean by ideal machine gun cartridge. She's a bit spicy by nature.

It is a pernicious myth that retained weight of fire and projectile momentum are trivial concerns in the jungle, and that fast-firing weapons using light, high-velocity bullets are always best. They are well-suited to some kinds of fighting in the jungle, but in other situations, weapons firing a heavier projectile are best. In WWII, the M-1 Carbine was popular with the troops because it was light and could throw a lot of fire downrange in a hurry.... but its performance in thick cover was often suspect in comparison to the .45 ACP and 30-06 cartridges used in heavier weapons such as the Thompson and M3 Grease Gun SMGs, and Garand rifle and BAR. Concerning this sort of question, collecting accurate statistical data would be very difficult other than at the local, small-unit level.

I would tend to agree with Ian on this topic. The light or squad machine gun is the most casualty producing weapon. Close combat tactics of the time were that the other members of the squad protected the machine gun and carried the extra ammunition. Contact with the enemy was usually less than 100 meters so the full power ammunition and the rifle it fired were not necessary. Several military tacticians came to the same conclusions. The standard issue rifle should be light and capable of both semi and full auto firing a reduced power ammunition. It should be both detachable magazine and clip fed in case the solider had only one magazine.

Georgia Boy you are correct. My Dad told me when he was fighting on Guadalcanal with the 182nd Infantry Regiment supporting the Marines everyone grabbed the Thompson Submachine Gun for the knock down power and the ease of wheeling them in the brush. The Garand was to big and cumbersome and the M-1 Cabine had no knock down power. But when he got to Belgium and Germany with the 310th Infantry Regiment at the Hergiten Forest and the Remagen Bridge everyone used the M-1 Garand with the 30-06 cartridge for the range and the knock down power.

@@dedowd9335 Well MY dad rejected the Thompson for jungle fighting as too heavy and for burning through ammo too quickly. As a weapon's platoon Sargent, he preferred the M-1 carbine.

@@dedowd9335 Your Dad was right. I've had the honor of knowing men who fought in both places who said the same things. The M1 Carbine was neither fish nor fowl, a poor substitute for a battle rifle or a submachine gun, and only much good for it's intended purpose; to replace a pistol for those who job precluded them from carrying a battle rifle.

Agreed with you, I just love shooting with my two SMLE's I have a No1 Mk3* HT Sniper (DOM 1908 then Re-furbished/up-graded by Lithgow SAF in 1946) and a No4 Mk1* DOM 1942 Longbranch. Cheers mate.

I can't agree more

.303 was best in my opion

Why did Enfield go with a two piece stock?

The .303 British is a horrible cartridge. It is rimmed and the trims can jam in a box magazine. And in addition it was loaded with cordite which is a highly erosive propellant.

@ old guard 2431 - Re: "When you get to the point where the MG cannot carry the whole squad, jungle/forest/urban etc., having a rifle that the average recruit can be taught to shoot effectively becomes much more important." That's an interesting observation, in light of how the various combatants in WW2, for example, solved that problem. The development and widespread issue of the M-1 rifle in the U.S. armed forces, in particularly in the army and USMC, allowed firepower to be disbursed or spread out more within the fire-team, squad or platoon. These augmented the BAR and/or browning M1919 .30-Caliber MGs on hand. The Germans took the approach that the rifleman (whether he carried a K98K or MP38/40 SMG) existed for the support of the machine gun, the MG34 or MG42. The Russians - burdened with arming and training huge masses of conscripts, many with only a rudimentary education - took the approach of mass-issuing submachine guns to as many troops as possible. So much so that one of the indelible images of the Red Army in WW2 is a tank-rider kitted out in his winter gear, holding his PPSH-41 SMG. The British approach was something of a blend of the U.S. and German, in that their troops used a bolt-action rifle as their standard service rifle during the war, the Lee-Enfield 303 series - just as the Germans used the K98K. But the Brits also placed great store by the BREN gun, and supported it greatly since it was the base-of-fire weapon. They used SMGs liberally, too, especially once they didn't have to rely on Uncle Sam for them and had production of the Sten Gun up and running. The Japanese never really got their act together small-arms wise, during and before the Second World War. They fielded weapons but never a decent SMG in any serious numbers. They purchased some Bergman and other foreign makes in small numbers, and did not get their own SMG into production - the Type 100 - until 1944, which was too late to make much difference. So the Imperial Army was wedded bolt-action rifles, and their light, medium and heavy MGs. A mystery why they didn't do better, since their weapons designs were often so brilliant in other fields, i.e. the famous Mitsubishi A6M Zero-Sen fighter, the fabled "Long Lance" torpedo, etc. The British and Americans, ironically, as the victors in WW2, were slow to adopt true assault rifles firing intermediate cartridges. Notwithstanding the now-infamous refusal of the U.S. Army Ordnance Dept. to consider the 270 British intermediate during the immediate post-war years, there was institutional bias in the British Army, too, against intermediate cartridges. After all, hadn't the 303 won the war? I've seen accounts from the Aussies who fought in Vietnam at places like Long Tan in 1966, and their experience is interesting since they were equipped both with rifles in 7.62x51mm NATO - the SLR/FAL - as well as American M-16 assault rifles, too, in 5.56x45mm. The after-action reports cite the SLR/L1A1 as the "outstanding weapon" of the engagement. I don;t know if that is Aussie/British Commonwealth pride talking or not, but that's what some of the history books state. Of course, Long Tan was fought in the driving rain of the monsoon and on a rubber tree plantation, so maybe the heavier hard-hitting .308-caliber cartridge was ideal for those conditions.

30 remington is a cartridge that should have been adopted by the military rather than falling into its present obscurity

@@ragnarragnarsson3128 Remington's life story, eh?

@@ragnarragnarsson3128 That's for sure,as an intermediate cartridge it had allot going for it already. With further refinements it could have been great. I mean plenty of people tout the virtues of. 300 blackout,on paper from the same platform and loaded for modern rifles the .30 Rem should have an advantage.

I always said that the .30 Remington would have been the ideal choice. Same energy than the 7.35 Carcano, but in a smaller package than both the 7.35 Carcano and .276 Pedersen (base diameter 10.7 mm vs. 11.4mm, OAL 64.1mm vs. 72.5mm), so shorter action, less weight for the rifle, more rounds in a M1 clip and more rounds carried by the grunts.

.25 Remington would have been better--6.5 Grendel or 6mm ARC ballistics rather than 7.62x39

Gun Jesus is awesome praise to thee

Might be the sweet spot.

@@shawnr771 It basically is for ballistic performance in the 100-150 grain bullet weights.

History may not always repeat but it sure does rhyme and often we underestimate our ancestors ability and understanding of the fine art of making the person on the other side of a war very very dead with as effective a tool for their chosen tactics as they can get most of the pistols of ww1 and ww2 aren't awkward when used in the correct stance they are awkward when you try use them using modern techniques

Only recently did armor become a consideration, along with standardized better optics to extend the range. Combine both of these and you may reasonably a) need to kill at extended range and b) penetrate body armor at range. That's the main rationale behind the current decisions as I understand them, and it includes better technology to deal with greater pressure etc. Up until relatively recently, optimum for iron sights and no armor may indeed have been ~5.56mm with the recent bullets... more rounds per unit weight, and cheaper rounds.

It's basically a 30 cal...which we've had over 100 yrs..optimal is .280 cal

.303 wasn't that different from every other full powered rifle cartridge. literally everything you just said could apply to .30-06 or 7.92x57mm.

@@justacanadianguy07 The .303 predates both the 7.92x57, and the .30-06, and was originally designed for black powder, before being upgraded to smokeless in the form of cordite. It is also a rimmed cartridge - unlike the other two, and is not mentioned once in the above video - despite its length of service in conflicts around the world.

@@cjgdevizes age and service life doesn't mean everything. in many ways, .303 is outperformed by .30-06 and 7.92x57 in velocity and muzzle energy. the reason why he probably didn't mention .303 is because, in terms of performance, it isn't an outlier. also, i own a lee enfield, and while i love my enfield, it isn't the best. there are better rifles.

Ian made it very clear that any rimmed or semi-rimmed cartridge is automatically disregarded...

Rim lock with rimmed cartridges is a factor to consider.

7.5x55 Swiss is the only round I've seen that regularly destroys steel targets. Like they go flying into the grass. Its wild.

6.5x55 does shoot a lot easier than .30-06 making it practically more accurate, but without optics it might as well be the same in practical terms - supersonic out to 1000 yards or not. 6.5 would not get you more magazine capacity, since it has roughly the same base diameter as .30-06. Even if a Ljungman with a muzzle brake would be better, it still wouldn't be controllable in full auto. Ian has already shown the hasty sling position in some videos, so he knows what it is: a tool for known distance range shooting, not always practical. Doesn't help with controlling a full auto battle rifle and it hinders mobility during practical shooting, that's why you only see it on one-way ranges.

Very interesting, Arthur. You sure know your stuff!

@@4991Ares Well, I didn't say you couldn't use optics.

@ Art Robinson - Thanks for writing. If I had it to do over, I'd want to be a Marine. Regarding your comments about the 6.5x55 (Swedish Mauser), it is a great cartridge, and the Norwegians and Swedes (who designed it jointly) have been using it successfully for 125 years. Military, hunting, competition, target, you name it. Did you know that for a time, Sweden used BAR (Browning Automatic Rifles) chambered for it? How cool is that? Shooting with a sling is a lost art. I learned it at Appleseed, which are those marksmanship workshops put on around the country, which teach traditional American riflemanship skills - i.e., shooting accurately from field positions - and also teach some of the history of our founding as well. Many of the most-proficient pro hunters use slings to stabilize themselves, some even the "Ching Sling," which is a specialized variant of the standard two-point sling. Shooting sticks and folding tripods and bipods are popular now in the field, but you'll still run into old-school sling users too. Interesting question whether or not the 6.5 Swede would be significantly softer-shooting than 30-06. It is a full-sized long-action cartridge, and loaded to its full potential, it is not as mild as you'd think. Whereas those old 139-grain military-surplus loads for the old Swedish Mauser rifles are significantly less-hard on your shoulder, because they are loader to substantially lower pressures. It's all well and good that 6.5 Creedmoor is here and turning heads, but the Swedes and Norwegians must be sitting there laughing and saying in their languages, "What took you guys so long??" They figured this stuff out more than a century ago.

The Boers used a lot of 6.5x55mm Mauser in their Krag-Jorgenssen rifles to great effect against British troops armed with the bigger .303 as far back as 1899*. A study of the best calibre for the British Army, based on the experience of the Boer War in 1907 examined it and liked it. If we had adopted that one then I think we might still be using (a version) of it today. But by 1913 we were trending towards the bigger Mauser calibre's, despite our best sharpshooters being unable to reproduce the same accuracy due to recoil and flash. In the end with war looming we kicked it into touch for a generation and continued with .303. Did the same in 1936 when we examined smaller calibre's again but faced a new war any day and kept on with .303. *They used lots of different calibre's including .303 - but the big 8mm P88 rounds and 7x57xmm for the Mauser M1895 came much later than the Krags. So they favoured the lighter end of the market in their most effective part of the war. The bigger rounds seemed to have grabbed the attention of those on the receiving end, especially when it morphed into the 7.92x57mm after the war. But the sharpshooting that so shocked British units in the early war were largely 6.5x55mm.

In 50 years we might flip back again lol. 6.5 Grendel or 6mm ARC in 50 years anyone?

@@gingergorilla695 Stop, just STOP IT!!! My 6.5 Grendel fanboi phallus can only get but SO turgid!

@@leftistsarenotpeople I mean the Serbians agree with that boner my guy lol.

@@leftistsarenotpeople I do plan on getting a Howa mini action in 6.5 Grendel sometimes ngl

6.5grendel is the best option for a do all cartridge. There is nothing u can't do with it. Within 1000yds.

It was not the first intermediate cartridge or even the first German intermediate cartridge, it wasn't even the first nazi-period German intermediate cartridge, the first German intermediary cartridge is the 7.9x42.5, and the first nazi-era cartridge goes to the GECO M35 7.75x40 round.) It was simply the intermediate cartridge in the right place and the right time where a government was willing to invest in the army's intermediate cartridge dreams. The german army wanted an intermediate cartridge since atleast 1918, but lacked the funding to get one in service untill things looked bad enough on the front.

@@matthiuskoenig3378 But, none of those other rounds were ever adopted. The question was : "What was the best WW2 cartridge".

@@smithwesson7765 I am not contesting whether it was the best cartridge of ww2, i am contesting that it was the first intermediate cartridge.

Not really. The Italian 7.35x32 Terni was developed in 1921 for an assault rifle. It was the first intermediate round, long before the Kurz.

8mm Mauser is really a great cartridge. Severely underrated in the states.

@@davidlindsey6111 Severely underloaded in the US

@@NeuKroftamaybe so but the Kurtz was the first widespread one that was fielded in more significant numbers

In the modern load 30-06 slightly otperformed 8x57, even european hunting 8mm loads..30-06 had a bigger catridge, but in ww2 era it was true,8mm was slightly more powerful but im not sure about trajectory,i tihnk that 30-06 have had flatter trajectory even than.I love both, but 30-06 is slightly better catridge.Both are legends.

Even better, but not in competition because none used it, despite having been widely available for more than 30 years, the .30 Remington. Rimless, same energy than the 7.35 Carcano in a smaller package than both the Carcano and .276 Pedersen, (base diameter 10.7 mm vs. 11.4mm, OAL 64.1mm vs. 72.5mm), so shorter action, less weight for the rifle, more rounds in a M1 clip and more rounds carried by the grunts.

@@neutronalchemist3241.25 Remington is probably better because of higher velocity and sectional density. .30 is a bit wide for a cartridge with those dimensions.

@@hailexiao2770 .25 Remington is basically intermediate by muzzle energy.

That's only because of the pressure demands for defeating now, and later, body armor. It still doesn't excuse the SIG Spear for being regressive on weight. It weighs as much as WWII/Korean War rifles do.

@@hailexiao2770 But less projectile choices and probably more resistance to be adopted. Better sectional density is really significative only past 300m, and the US infantrymen didn't (like they sitll don't) train past 300m (then it was 300 yards, 274 meters). Infact, in the end, they adopted the .30 Carbine.

I just sold a mk1 Enfield. I liked it though not much recoil and easy to work the bolt. Finding ammo was what made me decide to sale it. Once the surplus ammo ran dry it started getting really expensive to shoot it.

#4 in .303 Brit is amazing. I love both of mine.

303 is good, Lees are fast and accurate enough. Ammo availability is a non event really, at least here down under, ppu is easy to come by. I just load and its cheap as chips, pretty light on the brass compared to a lot of other stuff in my experience.

Great round in a great rifle but I think being rimmed counts against it slightly in terms of practicality

I completely agree!

@@lostalone9320 go back to German combat trials and it proved effective in combat on eastern front where platoon size groups had so much added firepower and don't forget german platoon tactics and equipped with panzerfausts etc

@@lostalone9320 Hitler ordered the German army to abandon the StG but the hierarchy of the German army was so impressed by the StG's impact on the eastern front that they ignored Hitler's order and kept using it. Hitler didn't tolerate his orders being ignored unless there was a ton of evidence it was the right call.

@@Morbacounet Hitler didn't want to develop the StG, but once it was deployed he came to see what all the hype was about. He never told the army to get rid of them, he's the one who changed it's designation from MP to StG.

@@vvr881 it may have been impressing soldiers but think about it, if you've been lugging around a long, slow firing, low mag capacity Kar98k you'd be happy to have it, as far as its potential impact in battles, even if they had been fielded in any large number would've been likely minimal especially late in the war against the vast amount of Russian SMGs which were far more controllable on full auto. That also fails to consider all logistic issues with this idea. It was also less reliable and more fragile than other contemporary weapons. The TL:DR is too little, too poorly executed and too late.

@@isbee56 you

Ian has a lot of experience with the Japanese WWII cartridges. His father literally wrote the book on the subject. I thought that the 6.5 Arisaka would be his choice, but he must have a good reason it is not.

@@jfess1911 Yeah, I wish he had expounded a bit more on that.

It did have some advantages, such as the improved range and power of such ammo. Granted, not as useful in the eyes of an individual rifleman, but have a whole squad light up a strongpoint and it's a lot scarier. It also allowed soldiers to replenish their rifles by pulling rounds from machine gun links, which they most certainly did on many occasions. Perhaps more importantly, it certainly helped centralize production, given that the service rifle and light/medium machine guns used the same ammo, streamlining production especially since it could be pre-loaded in the factory and all the soldier had to do was pick it up and either stuff it in their pockets or load it into their weapon. Of course the modern system has its merits, and even in WWII, the US infantry company had an intermediate cartridge in the form of the .30 Carbine in addition to the .45, and the US had no issue supplying the ammunition for the 1919, BAR, Garand, Carbine, Thompson or Grease Gun, and Colt, so supplying three types of ammo isn't out of the question, and is still done today with the M240, M249, M4, and M17.

But not the M1 carbine, that had been pretty important. It had been the only case where the carbine had to be made in a different caliber, because the main one was too powerful and a carbine version would have been too heavy anyway.

General MacArthur was Chief of Staff of the U.S. Army at the time, the senior-most soldier in the army in other words. Retrospectively, it is perhaps easy to be critical of his decision as being too safe and predictable in choosing the known quantity over the promising newcomer. However, if you try and look at it from the perspective of 1930s America, it is pretty clear that he made the responsible and right choice. First, the 30-06 was by that time, more than twenty-five years old and had proven itself in combat, in the field hunting, and in competition as one of the finest center-fire rifle cartridges in the world, and arguably the finest ever produced by the U.S. up to that time for military use. It had performed superbly in combat during WWI and in countless other smaller wars and incidents. Second, during the Great Depression, funding was extremely tight and Congress wasn't in the mood to appropriate more to the services. This is hard to imagine in today's world, where the Pentagon has a budget larger than many large nations, but things were very different in those days. MacArthur's decision was the fiscally-responsible one to make, in particular since there was already so much 30-06 on hand in U.S. government warehouses and military armories. Adopting a new service rifle and medium machine gun cartridge would have required not only the enormous expense of retooling the ammo plants, but of rebarreling existing weapons or perhaps even replacing them. As well as new training in the new weapons, retooling the arms manufacturers to gear to make the new weapons, and so on. Lots of back-end costs and hidden costs. A tough sell anytime, but especially during the worst economic slump in the nation's history. To repeat the old aphorism: "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" in other words....

@@GeorgiaBoy1961 Spot on & historically accurate comment! The US, & other countries, where having to adapt to a world wide depression era defense budgets. "American Caesar", by William Manchester, mentions this episode about calibers specifically. Thanks!

@@Gronk79 - Manchester was a brilliant man. I was sorry when he passed away some years back. He was a combat Marine during WW2, served in the Pacific. I have always enjoyed his work.

Criterion barrels makes a Garand barrel in 6.5x55 now. Don't know that they have any left in stock from the first production batch or if they are going to make it a regular item though.

After the war, the Danes had some M1's in .308. That's kind of close.

6,5 x 55mm Swedish has the better balance between weight, accuracy and terminal performance.

The Dutch used the 6.5×53mmR as standard cartridge and found it lacking in stopping power iirc

@@remko2 "stopping power" is a meaningless marketing term. Both Japan and Dutch upgraded to 7+mm designs because it was weak COMPARED to other nations, not that the round itself was insufficient in some way.

@@uni4rm the Dutch only switched to a different caliber after the war, as they were rearmed with surplus US and British arms

They researched a larger caliber in 1910 based on experiences in the East-Indies, where it was found in combat that the bullet tended to pass right through the target at short range, not incapacitating the opponent. Hence, 'stopping power' That switch was however never implemented

"I have spoken."

Or the 7 mm as the new calibre for the new gun?

7.5x55mm Swiss? I'm not familiar with the Swiss having a 6.5mm cartridge during WWII but I'm not an historian just a guy with some Swiss rifles LOL.

@@rickfinsta2951 I think they wrote swiss instead of swedish.

My bad. Meant swede. x55.

Does anyone why Swedes developed a spitzer version of their 6.5 cartridge but Italians didn't?

An M1 Garand chambered in 7x57? Yes.

My favourite cartridge great for pig & deer out of an old chilan

Paul Mauser preferred the 7.65mm, but the German military wanted the 8mm. Belgium and Argentina (among others) trusted Mauser.

@@ronaldjohnson1474 imagine if Stg-44 was in 7.65mm kurz instead of 8mm

@@u.m.9931 That wouldn't be significant difference tbh. The stg-44 was used like a submachine gun so they didn't really care about making it shoot flatter at long range. The FG42 on the other hand would have really benefited from a lighter projectile because 8mm mauser has a LOT of recoil to the point of almost being impractical for a battle rifle.

as a cadet now, I wish that I could shoot .303 but I guess if I join the shooting team they have 7.62x51 target rifles.

@@humblenoob7631 yeah, it's been almost 30 years since I was a cadet... but we used to go shooting at least once a month... every weekend if you wanted to shoot a .22

@@zoiders 30 years ago I was 15 and my cadet corps was shooting no4 mk2 enfilds... although we did get to shoot the C1-A1 (FN), I'd say that most of the (not .22 cal) shooting I did was with the No4.

Oh I think you're on to something there!

They shouldve made the chiappa repro of the m1 carbine in a better caliber

@@1nfamyX I have it in 22 and it’s absolute junk, had to send it back because the whole bolt carrier group just flew off when I was shooting it, I had to send it back and have it replaced.

@@AdventureswithaaronB it just does not belong with the ones they offer in, the .22 especially its like a worse ruger 10/22.

@@1nfamyX perhaps, I can only tell you the one I have in 22 long rifle is just garbage. I mean someone could’ve been hurt, the bolt flew across the range no joke

That is certainly not an insignificant factor. We were smart not to try to switch calibers before the war like the Italians and Japanese. I don’t have any source documents but the Italians stopped the 7,35 project because they knew it was going to be a problem, and it was. I would imagine the Japanese had even more problems with having 6,5 plus 7,7 for rifles plus the two other 7,7SR and 7,7R for different machine guns.

Somewhat of a circular argument aswel as ignoring the original question. The US had the 30-06 in rifles, BARs and machine guns so they used it. It didnt 'rule' anything because it was the best, it was just there. As Ian pointed out, ALL full power infantry rifle cartridges were too powerful for what was needed of a rifle. IMHO a 308, 7mm or 264 would have been better but nobody had a service rifle in that calibre.

@@csjrogerson2377 Nobody that was a major player, but the Spaniards still had their 7mm. I think he just meant “ruled” in the sense of it was the US caliber besides the much more limited .30 carbine. The .30-06 was not just overkill like all the other full bore cartridges but it was also ridiculously long. Great for versatile sporting use but with M2 ball being pretty much just equivalent to the other ~.30 cartridges around the world it made actions too long etc. for no real gain.

@@csjrogerson2377 it is circular bc this type of response is incoherent, this is not about "what shouldve been adopted" its about what cartridge is best based on performance. If it was anything remotely related to adoption, he wouldve answered for each nation individually & he wouldve taken practical elements like that into account. This comment section is full of ppl spouting random blurbs of history like this as if it adds to the conversation 🤦

30 aught Six MUH TWO WORLD WARS USA 🇺🇸 USA 🇺🇸 USA 🇺🇸:). FROG🏳️🇫🇷 AND SPAGHETTI🏳️🇮🇹ROUNDS NEVER FIRED ONLY DROPED ONCE!

Agreed..

Those were very sharp mangoes… I had to stand in front of those sharpened mangoes myself… luckily 7,62 x 51 proved to be the optimal sharpened mango stopper

I , FOR ONE AM QUITE PARTIAL TO THE LEE ENFIELD IN .303......MODERATLY POWERFUL, BUT NOT OVERLY SO .

I think the rifle mattered more than the round. The Lee Enfield is definitely my pick for the best boltgun of the war. I have one, and it fires so smoothly and so fast even in my untrained hands...

Well, they didn’t cover mangoes in ‘how to defend yourself from fruit’ class, did they?

And probably never have been manufactured if it was not for Sweden, as we had issues making a beltfed BAR... funny story really..

That would have been Peter Kokalis..

Yeah, he really neglected arguing for the expectation of long range shooting that was in the early 1900. And that many of these rifle designs, were carried over from WWI.

The 7.62x25 was replaced by the Russian 9x18 as it was deemed superior in 1946. The TT-33, the WW2 handgun for Russia, had a tendency to drop its 7.62 mag during operation. They just had the knowledge of it from WW1, so they used it instead of developing the 9x19.

@@uni4rm That is just because the Tokarev had the Browning style mag release instead of the more European heel catch. It’s not a flaw of the gun, but I can see if adrenaline gets pumping and you grab the gun wrong it could be an issue. They dropped the 7,62x25 because they wanted a simpler blowback gun (the PM) and they were adopting the 7,62x39 AK which rendered wartime blowback sub guns obsolete. The 7,62x25 was a good subgun/pistol round for its time. It did give Soviet subguns better range than their German counterparts.

7.92x33 still was the true intermediate round of the war and was the one to lead the way forward

@@uni4rm they may have thought makarov was superior, but is it objectively? probably not, even +p mak. it has a heel mag release cus they kept dropping mags, but is that the fault of the tt or their doctrine? maybe the fixed barrel of the mak makes the gun more accurate, but is that the ROUND that's more accurate? im a huge tok fan, i carry a type 54 a lot of the time, my home defense gun is unironically a pps43c. i think it's a hugely, hugely versatile cartridge and the fact that 357 sig exists and is so good shows the idea were ahead of their time.

You can walk around it being rimmed and too much tapered, but why chose it over ammos that have the same power whithout being rimmed or too tapered?

Interesting... Considering the US was the only country to start the war with a semi-automatic as standard issue, I wonder what the US doctrine was since they already have superior firepower due to the Garand being semi-auto...

Agree but (with hindsight) the ranges that the infantry fought over made the higher powered cartidges over kill, so a lighter weight cartridge with lesser power might reduce your MGs capability at 800m+ but below that range it makes no difference, the average engagement range in WW2 was 300m

The US doctrine was that the Rifleman where primary base of fire for the squad, with things like the BAR being there just in case. Also, usually high amount rifle grenades per squad I believe.

Except weren't the Germans trying to make the STg44 the standard infantry rifle by the end of the war? So it seems even the Germans at the time decided to improve the infantry rifle at the expense of the MG's.

Let's see. The MG34-42 was not loaded with spare infantry cartridges. Only with already loaded belts, that had to reach first line as already loaded belts. So the advantage of having the same cartridge for stripper-clip-fed infantry rifles and belt-fed MGs, especially considered that, using a lighter cartridge for the rifle, the grunts could have carreid MORE ammos for the MG, was pretty immaterial. Infact, in the end, the Germans recognised the advantages of the 7.92mm Kurtz.

Not actually so. While R.D. continued between the wars a combination of reduced funding because the thinking of the time was there would be no more large scale fighting as in WW1. Also most ranking military officers and politicians didn't see the practical, tactical, financial need to replace the large amounts of both rifles on had. McArthur for example wanted the M1 but in .30-06. America had millions of 30-06 ammunition on hand. It was a proven cartridge. It wasn't the best choice to use, but it worked out m

110gr .30 Carbine is one of the few bullets that has gone through Paul Harrel's MEAT Target and all 50 layers of the New and Improved High Tech Fleece Bullet Stop. For closer ranges, weight and accuracy I like the M1 also.

The Swiss ammo is pretty awesome.

I agree. Given the problems created and the additional time to work the bugs out when the switch was made to .30-06 it is likely there would have been far more rifles in .276 produced by the start of the war than they were able to produce in .30-06 in the same time frame. I find it quite ironic that we always hear that the .276 wasn't an optimal machine gun round but no one ever said anything about having the machine guns be the same caliber as the rifles. Just that having the rifle and the machine gun in the same caliber would be easier logistically. Yet, there were probably few times that belted ammo was stripped from the belts to go into clips or clipped ammo was stripped out of clips and put into belts and certainly no battles that hinged on that happening. MacArthur dismissed the one thing which more than anything lead to the US prevailing in the War and that was our ability to produce weapons of all sorts in sufficient quantity to supply not only our own forces but the forces of our allies as well.

Hindsight is 20-20, historically and otherwise, but it is hard not to wonder why the army ordnance people didn't still work on the .276 Pedersen in secret, at least enough to keep the concept alive for the future. The money must not have been there, or a favorable bureaucratic climate. Case of a great idea, but one ahead of its time.

You are forgetting the Americans like to sideline non-American achievements !

Imagine a world where all M1A's and Mini 14's are toggle lock, and there is a popular guntube channel called "Pedersen Thumb"

No, the Garand and Bren in .276 P., and .30-06 M2 for Browning and Vickers MGs. Although the Mk8 .303 worked fine for the Vickers.

Everyone was fully aware that smaller calibers created flat trajectory. The 6.5x50 used by Japan in wars leading up to WW2 was famous for it. Its just a matter of logistics.

you have to understand that both cartridges you mentioned where basically stop-gaps, to research the viability of an intermediate-powered cartridge, using whatever tooling they already had to cut costs and development time.

They certainly weren't a dead end, but rather instead a step towards the adoption of cartridges like 5.56. Their being obsolete today does not preclude them from being very influential by introducing the intermediate case length, which is part of the magic of modern cartridges like 5.56. A small caliber bullet in a full sized 57 or 63mm case may have some uses (hunting, target shooting), but without the reduced case length pioneered by 7.92 Kurz and 7.62x39, it would still have many of the disadvantages of other full power rifle rounds when adopted for a standard infantry rifle. Would armies have moved to something like 5.56 without first seeing the adoption of 7.62x39? Probably not, which makes them far from a dead end design.

7.62x39 is still used today.

Re: "7.92 kurz and 7.62x39 were dead ends in cartridge design, though." Well, maybe in certain respects, but if you look at modern cartridge design, you'll see a surprising number of cartridges which have roots in that 7.62x39 case or something similar to it. Bench-rest shooters have gone to town with short, fat cases driving high-BC low-recoil projectiles which cheat the wind, provide stellar accuracy and perform consistently. The 6mm PPC has won more precision shooting matches than any other cartridge, if memory serves, and it is pretty similar to the old Russian 7.62x39 in appearance. And today, cartridges like 6.8 SPC, 6.5 Grendel and 6mm ARC continue the tradition on the practical-field side of the house.

It depends on the country. For Germany, certainly tactics were built around the squad MG. That was not the case in the US, though, which preferred accurate rifle fire from the individual soldier as the “killing machine”.

Doesn't make it the best. Just means that Soviet Union/Russia just weren't able to move on from it.

It's a rimmed cartridge which makes designing good magazines and belt-fed machine guns around it difficult. It has stayed in use by Russia and some other countries rather as a result of accident or lack of funding not because it's a particularly good cartridge.

@@hendriktonisson2915 I mean energy wise it's right there with 7.62x51, and the PK handles it fine. It may be a pain in rifles, but the MG issue seems to have been figured out at this point

It's used only for SVDs and machine guns now

For sure, now in Luxembourg, and i think Belgium too, the old surplus ammo 7,62x39 is now forbidden for sales in gunshops because it did not certify from C.I.P. norms, no more surplus dirt cheap ammo.

@@robotko_ruslan Tell that to the poor DPR/LPR soldiers using Mosins in the Donbass right now))

@@hlq2action310 can you explain what C.I.P. means?

@@Frontline_view_kaiser i meant in service of a regular army

Swedens first FN MAG (KSP58) was in 6.5x55.🙂

Funnily enough the max CIP chamber pressure for 6.5SE is almost the same as 30-06 and in practically is capable of the same pressures. SAAMI specs are still stuck in the 1800's for the Swedish 6.5 for reasons of not enough fucks to give.

@@hakansoderholm6514 And IIRC Ian has a video on the Swedish BAR in 6.5x55. I'd love to see him get a chance to shoot that one.

@@claptree3217 Thank You. I have not seen that one. Movie of the evening.🙂 A friend of mine have shoot the BAR in 6.5x55. He loved it. Low Kick so Great accuracy even in full auto. I think he said something like. Pull the trigger and it does the rest😀❤

@@SurmaSampo Probarly becauae of m96 mausers, that have been drilled for scopes. It should be like the 45-70. Old rifles. New rifles and extrem (Ruger No1) A 6.5x55 Ackley in a No1...😎😀

Yeah he sure is alot smarter than your average joe...

That’s Eugene Stoner

Thats not because its so amazing though.

You probably meant 7.62x54R. It's a rimmed cartridge which makes designing good magazines and belt-fed machine guns around it difficult. It has stayed in use by Russia and some other countries rather as a result of accident or lack of funding not because it's a particularly good cartridge.

@@hendriktonisson2915 in terms of energy however, it's right there with 7.62x51mm, and the pk's have all been designed around it and work quite well by the looks of it

the french 7.5x54 used is the mas-36 was also a great cartridge, but the Carcano would also be my first choice very near to the 7.92x33 which is almost perfect for 300m radius use at the time (created in '42 but only saw "spread" use in late '44 with the latecoming but eyeopener STG-44, so not really much can be said but extrapolation, like the also late introduction of jet fighters by and for nazi germany)

7.5x55 Swiss. Its ridiculous.