Part of the reason videos like this are so cool for me to make, is the fact it sparks a discussion like this and people always have different takes on it and they usually come from a place of love for what we either grew up enjoying or currently still do. Thanks as always for watching

Asmon has reached MMO enlightenment. By detaching himself from desire, the desire for a better MMO, he has removed himself from suffering.

One of my favorite memories was in EQ me and a friend were trying to get the dagger from Ambassador D'vinn in the crushbone fort. This guy who was way higher level kept KSing us and laughing about it. We went to our guild and one of the most well know and high level Magicians said he'd be right there. He ran in and just kept killing the guy over and over, found out his guild, went to the guild leader and had the guy reprimanded for his action. He proceeded to sit there for the next hour letting us loot as many daggers as he dropped so not only did we each get the dagger but he made sure we got enough to start selling them. It was pretty epic and one of the most memorable moments I've ever had in a MMO.

I'm chasing the feel I had when I started WoW back in TBC, I know I'll never have that feel again, at least not for a long time. I'll come across a game that sparks that feel for the first 10-20-30 hours, then I'll just learn the works of it and slowly delve back into uninterest as I start working the numbers and min-maxing instead of just playing.

Chat is too fucking young and stupid to even have their opinion on this matter. First of all, These game developers are employing psychologists to make the games more and more addictive, they are doing this its not up for debate, the games are psychological projects to make people as addicted as possible and are ever more predatory in system designs to squeeze money out of players. This was not the case with the original MMO's of the 90's and 00's. Yes they were designed to keep you subscribed to them, but they were not nearly as predatory in nature, the game developers were much, much closer to the philosophy of 'just making a good game' than they are now. The other problem is the corporate behavior, they have way too many corporate overlords to appease now and a game failure now is too costly to a developer. This isn't 90's SOE or Blizz making a game they enjoyed in their garages, its corporate boards answering to other corporate boards to make the most profit possible in one release, in a nutshell the innocence of the game is lost over squeezing out more quarterly earnings. Us 30+ year old's got to see a business sector in it's infancy when it still had it's innocence and that is what the younger people will never understand. Sorry for the essay, but these Twitch chatters act like they know the answers to events they didn't even witness and it just kills me.

As a thirty-something gamer, whenever I see these kinds of videos, it really resonates in me and I always end up asking myself a question: Do "younger" gamers enjoy these new games and mechanics like "we" did back in the day? :) I am really genuinely interested about that.

GW2 still has that element where you can only look a certain way by playing and completing content. Yes you can buy some cool skins from the store with real cash but most of the real unique and legendary skins can only be obtained by playing.

As someone who lost interest in MMO's back in the early 2000's and had a brief stint with FFXIV a couple years ago, it is interesting to see how the genre has evolved (and devolved) and the perspectives of people knee deep in them today.

I would say that "dice roll" was always a big part of MMO RPG and everyone was fine with it back then but the fact that nowadays you can just swipe your card and have higher chances etc changes things. Back then it was all up to your luck, play time or your skill now it is all up to how big is your wallet and this is the main issue.

Played WoW since the launch, loved it, loved it all the way through to cata and then just couldn't get into it, until Legion, which brought it all back for me, the nostalgia, the fun, everything, what an expansion, but since then I've gone back to not enjoying it, I stopped playing in BFA, Shadowlands held my attention for a few weeks but it just wasn't for me, Classic is fun though

You know what I miss in MMORPGs? Actual RPG progression for items. The Heroic, Fabled, Epic and Mythical quest-lines for the weapons in EQ2 was some of the best content I've ever experienced in an MMO.

From my experience, the big difference is that before the game's where grindy but there was not an option to just skip it by paying. This option kills the game.

when I got my mage set from blackwing lair it was the best feeling ever, I still remember walking around town in my robe that barely anyone had, it remains one of my best experiences to this day, it was so hard and so rewarding and fulfilling.

I think a big thing that make MMOs and basically all games less exciting for older players is the internet. Every game has a walkthrough online almost immediately. Everything is datamined before it even comes out. Every stat and skill has been evaluated by a calculus major before they've come out. There are no secrets anymore so games have lost their wonder in my opinion. Yes you can not use them but you maybe missing something. Especially on large games with hidden things. Before you didn't know what you're missing but now you know you are missing out. Of course knowledge also takes away the wonder. It reminds me of when I played VR at a friends house. I immediately was able to exploit the mechanics and didn't even have to move by cheasing the move bubble mechanic. I was told I wasn't playing it right but it was the most efficient way to play. For someone who's played a ton of games I easily was able to exploit the simple early VR games.

Back in the days we were adventurers like the developers. Not the pioniers, but the first colonists taming the wild lands of video gaming. Now we are looking at fancy attractions, recreations of the stories we told together, for every joe who is willing to pay. There is no adventure, you get in, an automatic system locks you safely and you go on your trip. Than you leave and when you wanna you can buy a second round. And don’t forget to buy a gift at the end, you can also share your amazing ride with your friends and the world!

Elden Ring feels more like WoW used to feel than any current MMO. I’m Discord more chatting with friends / family about bosses, builds, exploration, etc. I’m teaming up with people to do co-op open world and boss fights. And not even because I can’t beat the content on my own, it’s just fun to accomplish goals together where your build doesn’t matter, your class doesn’t matter, and your gear doesn’t matter, but at the same time those things all matter because they’re your canvas to create your own fantasy. Classic WoW and other old school MMOs were about the fashion show first and foremost. No transmog, no cosmetics that made you look like a max level raider at level 1. I can’t name a single item from a single MMO since WotLK, but I can look at your weapon in Elden Ring and know exactly which challenge you had to beat to get it, and how difficult (or simple) it was to obtain.

I just remember being younger, having a level 23 mage then seeing a Paladin with a cool Mace so I decided to reroll Paladin and levelled it to mid 20s to get that Mace from a class quest reward. Also getting gold together to buy beast slaying enchant from an enchanter because it looked so cool the red glow. Also remember seeing a voidwalker for the first time to I was levelling with my friend and being like what the hell is that!?! it's a pet!?!? Those days I miss. It wasn't about levelling the fastest, being the best, having the best gear, watching what pro streamers do to min max. It was about having fun with friends and going on an adventure. I honestly believe the only way we will get that feeling back is in the future when there is a crazy VR MMO, where nobody knows what they are doing or what to expect. Computer gaming has been figured out.

The most fulfilled I ever felt in a game was when I beat Jad in RuneScape back in 2008, you get a fire cape that can only be earned by doing a really hard boss that you have to fight through 3 hours of mobs and carefully manage consumables. It makes the boss fight really anxiety inducing because 1 misclick on your prayer switching or forgetting to use a consumable and the boss can 1 shot you and you're out millions of gold worth of items and hours of your time. Back then if someone had a fire cape you knew they earned it, very few had it back then. Even players with a bunch of 99s and thousands of hours never got a fire cape because it was really difficult, at least for most of us. I'll never have that feeling in a game again and it really makes me kinda sad. RuneScape gets meme'd on but it had by far the best character progression and meaningful content. Getting your Ancients magic, skill capes, your first Abyssal Whip, getting a rare drop that can be worth literally thousands of dollars irl. God it was so good, and I wish I played it more because it was a masterpiece MMO tbh. Especially since I've experienced so many other games and mmos now.

“I don’t know how those developers can do that man”. Yes we do? Remember Chris kaleiki and Kevin Jordan? They gave lots of insight to the design philosophy behind the classic era games: Lore was always secondary and the player was the story in their own words. “Leeroy Jenkins running into the rookery and wiping the raid” was the story and so on. They had a relatively simple life, but every server had its own unique “story” The problem is that they have a fucking narrative team. They force the lore on you and define your character in game now - so you have no real autonomy over your own “story” anymore. That human element can be achieved again imo 💯, but the dev team for a game like wow would have to shift their entire design philosophy.

There use to be a time in MMO when it wasn't always "chasing a bigger number" but chasing cool and unique gear. Or, you got to a point where your build was complete. In DAoC, there were stat caps on every stat. And it was impossible to max out every stat, the goal to gearing was trying to find that perfect build template that suited your playstyle. I've never seen any other MMO do it this way. It's always a never ending gear chase for just bigger numbers.

I'm really happy that I actually got to re-live the "golden era" when I started playing ff14. Last time that I had as much fun with mmos was with WoW back in 2005-2007

When u see a new game release date and u cant be sure that the game will be a final product, that alone, explains the game industry today. Incomplete and when they manage to finish, players already dropped from it. And they start to look for another ''new release date''. The cicle continues...

The excitement over those games used to revolve around being able to go on adventures with your friends. It was the social aspect more than anything else. Today, online social interaction is normal, there's nothing special about it, that magic is gone. So games have to be better, since they can't rely on that crutch anymore. No what we're left with is the realization that these games were never good.

I still remember my first friend on WoW. Burning crusade leveling i was a Night elf Hunter and me and a dude Riddel on the server duskwood was another Night Elf in duskwood and we hung out and quested together cause we were Night elfs. Became friends and Dungeoned and Raided with him throughout the rest of the expansion. Still remember the experiences but wonder how hes doing :)

Everquest again, the first 3D mmo, did this better than every game that came after. Items that allow you to cast spells, invisible, see invisible, speed boosts, you name it. Playing a warrior and having a clicky item that lets you go invisible is game changing and you keep that item forever in your bags. I started playing Everquest in 2000 and items I looted that first year are still in my bags and used on a daily basis 22 years later. And these items were rare, making them even more special. Pegasus cloak: allows you to cast levitate on yourself and is looted off an extremely rare spawn in a zone that makes the Barrens look small. Journeymen boots: A pair of boots you get from an obscure quest line turned in to a rare spawn that moves very fast. You had to give him 2 items and a so much coin you would be encumbered. This made actually catching him very hard. The boots give you a movespeed buff and on a warrior became a source of threat generation via buff spamming. This is what an mmo is supposed to be.

In regards to the opening statement, I have been thinking these last couple weeks how much Elden Ring feels like the modern equivalent of what Zelda was to my older siblings when I grew up. I remember being a kid watching my older brothers play through Ocarina of Time, Majora's Mask, and plenty of other games too but those two stuck with me the most. I ended up playing wind waker and twilight princess once I was old enough to actually play myself instead of just watching them all the time, but even playing those games didn't quite feel the same to me. Playing Elden Ring though.. that magic came back again. It gives me hope for the future, and who knows, maybe some dev team as passionate and driven as Fromsoft will make a great MMO. Ashes of Creation looks like it has that passion at least, though obviously MMOs are so much larger in scope

While the systems for getting money out of players hasn't changed, the way they are presented has. Modern mmos don't hide the systems they use to get players to spend money as much because it causes players to spend more money, but at the expense of hurting the player's enjoyment of the game. It's why the whole UX debate with Elden Ring was a thing because user experience can drastically affect how enjoyable a game is even if the systems are fundamentally the same. This is a game design decision that modern games choose to make for the sake of profits over player enjoyment. However, those more willing to part with their money aren't going to feel the negative affects as much since they can just skip past it quickly by swiping.

What I missed in MMO is community and social aspect game offers. How a new raid will bring group of strangers together and become friends. How we are actually actively trying work together for something inside the game.

This man just gave a spoiler warning for a movie from the 30s, that's next level.

I truly believe that Ragnarok Online was an MMO going in the right direction. It was huuuge, the game didn't hold your hand at all, no bs quest, and you could go wherever you wanted since lvl 1 pretty much (with some exceptions ofc). The sense of freedom, exploration, and discovery of that game was incredible. I still play it every once in a while, but I'm still hoping for a true spiritual successor.

I know this is late to mention, but my idea to force social interactions is to make walls for main quest, but instead of paying, make an option to recruit people to work together to do it, so either you feel rewarded for soloing it, or you enjoy content with others. Hopefully that idea would work. And trial and error may be able to refine it so it’s more consumer friendly.

As a young guy (18) who's been playing games since as long as I can remember, I didn't really understand why many older guys really hated a lot of the games I enjoyed as a kid and still enjoy now. Recently however I have made and effort to play older games like Deus Ex, Fallout 1 + 2, Thief, etc and it has really opened my eyes as to how kinda, well, shitty a lot of current games are, especially in the RPG and MMO genre. I was really excited to play classic wow when it came out because I never got to experience it the first time around and it pretty much ruined every other mmo for me lol. There's just no current MMO that comes close to the feeling of getting gear or finishing a dungeon or just talking to people and Ive kinda just fallen off the genre as a whole because of it. I really hope someone will be able to make an MMO that captures that for me but I'm not holding my breath. I remember dungeons and quests in wow more than my entire experience playing BDO or FF14 because I had to talk to and meet people to finish them. I feel like a lot has been lost in recent years in gaming, not just in mmos but in a lot of my favorite genres as a whole.

there's a few issues. the main one is the post-information age we live in. even before lost ark released, every single bit of the game has been done, analyzed and perfected. early mmos in the late 90s and early 2000s didnt have this problem. 2004/2005 wow ( when i played) you had to figure all this shit out on your own. discover it on your own, or with friends. that was the adventure. that was fun and rewarding. we'll never, ever have this again as long as the internet exists as it does today. The best way going forward would be an mmo that can do the pvp/hardcore/full loot thing properly (eg new world done right). You can't internet metagame pvp. It's why games like dota, league of legends and cs go are still so popular - because of the pvp element. mmos now are just a gear check with some youtuber telling you how to do a hard raid.

Runescape, to this day, is still the most in depth and rewarding experience I've ever had in a game. Completing a quest line or finishing a skilling goal, defeating bosses, all feels rewarding. I still think asmon would love rs if he gave it enough time. I prefer osrs, but I think Zack would enjoy rs3 more

I’ve been playing tbc classic and I find there are still people playing it and leveling characters, since everyone went to one server you can find people to group with pretty easy in LFG trade chat or guild chat, I’m happy that in 2022 I can still find random strangers through wow, in the barrens and run around helping each other finish quests level run dungeons together and being friendly, with someone I haven’t even met in real life

I agree with you Asmon. I have also sometimes felt that ultimate futility in games and it definitely takes you out of the experience. It's sort of similar how sometimes I get pangs of existential terror when I realize one day I'll die and I don't believe in an afterlife. The point though is to enjoy the time while we have it, both in games and in life.

There is a wc3 custom map called as "the world rpg" which has best item progression in my opinion, its a 10man map. In that all gear has to be crafted and its wc3 so there are 6 slots and only 5 items are there 6th slot is for potions/miscellaneous. Its endgame is divided like this minors -> mid -> late game -> end game bosses. And you have to craft all the items, there are items that drop from bosses too but most of time they are temporary till u craft something better than that, there are some exceptions where boss drop item is bis for some class. Items are so important in this game, they optimize the hero so much. For ex:- 1. thers one class called "Swordsman", he has one passive skill which empowers his next attack after casting a skill, and he has lots of spells and chain spells and combos, like thers one spell which on use creates sword storm around him and he can jump to target 3-4 times. So if he uses that spell and hits he get 1 empowered hit, when he jumps again he gets another empowered hit. So for this class there are items which further improve this, thers one sword which deals holy damage on next attack after skill use, thers one back which gives same passive as his passive, thers a helm which on use gives a buff which increases stats everytime u use skills within the duration etc. 2. Thers another class of mages, fire mage/frost mage, for them bis items are those which increase fire/frost affinity, thers physical dps which ignores armor and does pure damage for that bis items are those which give raw attack damage and many more complex classes You start from 0 lvl to max by just killing mobs, then you start from minors. So you have to craft items from minors and get full minor crafted gear before you can go for mid bosses, then you uprade these items with drops from mid bosses, then from late then from end. And the recipes are all interesting, like an endgame recipe of sword can have a material from a minor boss, and when item is upgraded sometimes it completely changes to different item with different effects, sometime it gets better version of itself. There are some items which are upgraded from minors all the way to endgame with steps in between. For ex:- Thers a ring which when u craft from minors gives stats and armor aura around you to allies, when u upgrade it with mid bosses, it upgrades to new ring which now gives more stats and gives you like 10% chance to completely block damage whenever u receive. It then upgrades from this to another better version from endgame bosses which gives more stats, block damage, and 25% chance to deal 20% more damage on every point of damage you do. It is then again upgraded to a better vesion from latest endgame boss which gives further better stats and more chance. So an item from minor bosses is all they way gone to endgame and is bis for many classes, and there are lots of such items. It is so much fun than these mmos, coz items are interesting, classes are interesting, bosses are interesting, you can have so much variety of items, you can go for completely different builds for some heroes with different items based on their effects, there are items which give specialty to classes which improves or gives extra effect to their spells or straight changes the spell completely. Wish such crafting progression was there in mmos and items effected classes more in mmos, currently in mmos items are just stats nothing else and no effects at all.

Asmongold: "Nothing truly matters until you get to the end. Is that a bad thing?" Yes. That's a bad thing. It's not just a bad thing, it's a HORRIBLE thing. Because it means players aren't playing to experience the game, they're playing so they can finish the game. MMOs are not games meant to be finished. They're games meant to be experienced. That's why the genre is dying/dead. That's why Kira (like so many others) have lost hope for the genre. Because it's become a blatant cash grab. This is something Asmongold has zero respect for, because he's a rich AF KZfaqr who's completely detatched from reality. Dude dumped $2,000 over 2 weeks into a hollow game where those stats amount to nothing more than telling others how much more money than brains you have, because Lost Ark can be beaten by a baby monkey who doesn't even know how to equip gear. It amounts to a fashion contest, where only the show host (Amazon) wins, while the contestants go broke. The pay to win approach to the genre has gotten entirely out of hand & when you realize the alternative is blatant cash grab releases like New World, it becomes clear that the entire genre is doomed.

Most fun I've had in retail WoW was first 2-3 weeks after Timeless Isle was released. Just run around this place grinding some quest, killing world bosses, trying to solve puzzles and finding treasure chests with friendly strangers without hurry.

its so true when he says dragging the players kicking and screaming to the holy land. that was my experience with new world even if the game itself died pretty fast, it was awesome just getting involved with people around activities in the game because i pretty much had to whereas i would just do it solo if i could. I really miss this not only in mmos but in any game

So much drama about current gaming and MMOs, while I'm just sitting over here in the corner playing GW2 and having fun.

It's a bit frustrating how Asmon says "new world had x and that was bad" as an example of why a feature is bad. Hitler had a moustache, but does that mean all moustaches are bad?

the problem with alot of these memorable moments is also population related. In todays mmorpg world you just wouldnt have the same small endgame community anymore, where you know all these people. back in the day gaming was just not a mainstream media. Groupfinder for example would have no choice but to mach you with 1 of 100 people , now it matches you with over 10000. The chance of running into a person again is just smaller. This also leads to more toxicity since you can run with other people, in 2000 you just couldnt

i just recently leveled a druid up in tbc classic, it took me 3 weeks. my first character took me 6 months to get stuck in a character transfer validation process for 2 years, which led me to make a new character with a friend and level it up - spanning about a fkin year. thats the difference - nowadays im rly good at running in the treadmill but i forgot to enjoy it .. to quote asmons mom: "Wheres the fun?" .. it hits hard once you realize it

aRPG gear does it for me. Even if you get the highest tier base item, the other item with better rolls can still be better. But when you get that holy grail of all the right stats, dayum. This gives a very horizontal progression, and simply having the drop doesn't mean that you get an item to replace the previous. Tiered stuff has always felt meh to me because the base stats are far too high compared to the magic stats. Raw damage is always just better than a really cool and well rolled item, don't like those.

Nothing can compare to my first experiences with WoW. Exploring the world, way under levelled for every zone I was looking at, getting aggro’d from 30 miles away, just excited to see what was to come. Levelling in westfall (og westfall) and checking out all of the higher levelled people in stormwind. I think the main death of mmo was the evolution of people picking apart the most efficient things and then the mmo community making the most efficient the target or the norm. You need to be blind to the future for the excitement to be there. Everyone working towards their goal, knowing every step and knowing the end location saps all of the fun out of the experience. Developers then adjust to make more and more end locations and stop creating a whimsical world, focusing instead on how to keep the community invested by adding more steps to the process. Tl;dr: too much ease of information and people trying to reach end game created a worse mmo environment and development process.

I actually definitely enjoyed just meeting or typing out lf healer etc to see who we could get in new world together more than the group finder in wow

On people changing: often times, our friend group changes too. I remember playing wow with my friends and them helping me with the swift flight form boss. Now most of my friends have quit gaming altogether. At most, they can only do quick games, like fall guys or CoD. No one has time for wow anymore, scheduling life around a raid calendar.

Part of what killed lost ark's gear treadmill for me is that with the way gear is upgraded and replaced, there are no standout items (maybe stones, but those aren't fun either). Imagine finally getting core hound tooth, dragonspine trophy, glorenzelg, even moving forward to legion with convergence of fates. These items (and many more), at the time of their relevancy, were iconic items that even players who couldn't use them/didn't want them understood how big they were for others. Lost Ark's lifeless treadmill of items that you don't even pay attention to or remember their names, they have no unique effects, they're completely uninteresting and unimportant on an individual item to item basis. Upgrading these items and the acquisition of the materials required is more of the same. Not even mentioning the necessity of alts to feed the above system.

I’m playing lineage 2 since 2009. Game still going strong. Huge online on a private server. No other game has dragged my attention like this

I remember after WoW released and the fireball mages in Westfall that were overturned & running from them. I discovered I could farm wintersbyte & make frost oil to sell for 1g-2g. I sold frost oil to finance epic mount. Then Tanaris fishing stonescale eels to earn 2g. No one knew anything & the discovery was the most fun part. And it bonded the player base. 8 hours in Blackrock made you into friends & then guildies.

Because of work there is no more time to really get into an MMORPG and get invested as I used to do in school. There will always be that thought in the back of my mind that in x hours is work again so i have to be in bed in x hours to get sufficient sleep. Just kills the whole vibe and scoops me right out of any immersion that is build up, just sad really.

I loved the character progression with gear in Lineage 2. Every set of gear u had was bound to a lvl range and u needed to have subclass or a alt char within that range to progress your main class or character. One of the best attack damage character jewelery was an epic queen ant ring which had to be killed by lv 40-48 character. There could only be couple of those rings in the server. So people had to work together to achieve the goal. IT Wasn't the ideal system cause most of the high end stuff was put onto tanks and healers first. Coz u needed them to be rly fkgn strong, but i always felt like it's their prize for having the shittiest time of their life leveling and gearing up. Loved that system and I tenf to go back to some private servers to sunk few months of my life there to feel the nostalgia.

I think we need to appreciate that he put the "... to me" in the tilte. Most other YT-Frogs would just say "MmO dEaD LoL"

could anyone tell me what game that was at 25:34?

38:50 having fel fire as a warlock when it came out, when it was difficult, was cool.

MMOs nowadays are built to make the player login each day, they want retention. Games didn't use to have login rewards, daily quests, daily chores. You played when you wanted, how much you wanted.

Really depends on how you play a MMO and your outlook. You can't fully blame a new MMO for the lack of interactions. With the internet and Discord communities people choose to only speak with their friends through other sites instead of social interaction in game, but there are plenty of experiences where you can still get the human interactions in Lost Ark. Doing islands and talking to randoms, to create those moments is something you yourself has to pursue. Most gamers these days do not interact with each other due to time limitations, getting completions, and outside chats. But you can definitely fish all day and just talk to strangers if that's what you want. Also adding to that the older we get the less time we have to play the game, everyone that logs on do not want to sit around and waste their time. They instead choose to progress their players trade skills/ strongholds/ adventure tomes/ island tokens/ mokokos etc. It is because there is so much content in Lost ARK that is why we are unable to interact fully. Once the game ages and people start to complete all their needs then maybe they will stick around and chat, but it isn't likely. Lets say everyone who plays a new MMO is in their 20s-30s, what we don't have is time. after your 9-5 job and your outside interactions/ dinner you are only left with so many hours to actually progress in the game. You have to decide yourself the experience you want, with that comes a sacrifice to other aspects of the game. Player progression will only help new players get up to speed and then free up more time to just do what they want in the game and free up time to chat with each other. Ultimately Time and outside communities is the reason you see less and less interactions. The game is only there to provide the space, but you have to be willing to strike a conversation and make those moments happen get off disc/ get off twitch/ get off reddit and actually try to talk to people in game.

I wonder if adding some sort of meaningful xp boost if you do a dg with a pre-made party rathwe than a dg finder party...if that would help encourage more social interaction or not.

My best mmo experience was EQ and early WoW, all due to my guild being such great people to play with. Even random people would stop to help or tell you something. Nowadays, hard to find those kinds of guilds. No one talks. The grind has just made people fast paced automatons.

his sad mmo's are dying, then has an ad for a mobile rpg. That broke me:(

Please make an allcraft episode with Kira about the State of the MMORPG Genre. I think that would be super interesting. :)

Talking about the skill based thing - last thing I remember really liking in WoW was the Solo Challenge in legion I can't remember what it was called. Trying and finally succeeding in it before I had good welfare legendaries was one of my favorite memories post wrath.

The best items in Everquest would literally last you multiple expansions, which was important with 60+ people in a raid and only 2 or 3 items dropping on bosses you had to fight the whole server for

mmo's used to be about cooperation between individuals and competition between groups. somekinda holy triangle type of grp play and your guild vs their guild etc etc nowadays mmo's are kinda more like being a bunch of content creators for crap like tiktok or twitter all superficial ego centred nonsence. its like game devs all think all gamers are streamers or something. able to waist 18 hrs a day and have an army of simps to pay to play the game

Listening to this, about the character progression, I think I liked Legion artifact weapons. It was relevant for the whole expansion, and it being a weapon it felt good to get that much power just from commiting to farming AP for it. It wasnt that big of a difference in the end but it still felt good to have higher item level of the weapon

It really is true that nostalgia is as much of a blessing as it is a curse. For me personally, it feels as though I often spend more time relating to or comparing to the golden memories of the past, rather than enjoying the newness of the present and the potential it allows for creating new memories.

visual progression is a direct opposing idea to wanting to look different to another player, because at the end of the progression every one looks the same. its the same kind of difference between skill based game play and raw power creep gameplay. there are so many ways to visually distinguish player achievement now that gear or cloths is not really needed anymore. we have titles and effects now for that.

I feel the same way. My last hope is Ashes of Creation. If that fails, I am officially done with MMOs.

It's never been dead. The people who mainly enjoyed them changed drastically. As they grew older they fail to enjoy the simplest features of the game and continue to chase endgame goals with minmaxing anything and everything.

I do miss the days where seeing a green item in WoW felt exciting, more than I ever thought I would lol

It's kinda why I stopped as well. When I capped my character in shadowlands. It just dawned on me that the only thing ahead now was endlessly grinding to keep up with some imaginary progression curve. Haven't touched an MMO since.

main issue feels like way too much of the game play experience has been sacrificed for monetization games don't need defined goals, even games designed specifically without them like minecraft or stardew have been hugely popular if there are numerous fun things that can be done for their own sake without being gated by monetization systems. This is the aspect that encourages players to create and achieve their own goals and is what helps players feel that the game is about the journey, not the destination. The mindless grind gated by monetization systems for a conditioned goal of 'bigger number' gets old fast, especially when it's painfully clear that the game is p2w This might be why so many people have been quitting, both in game and out

I agree with a lot parts in this video on both sides but however the MMO genre and players are changing so the creators of these games try to hit those point to that specific group of people. also as players to this genre of games need to keep in mind that a few of the point said in this video ate based on what happened in the game during an event in our personal life that made us happy. so for some people they are trying find the connection to that happy point. so in a few words they comparing some MMO based on what made you happy in your personal life than looking at it subjectively. that is just a few of my opinions.

I think it's not that the treadmill wasn't so blatant but more so that we had alot less information and a lot smaller frame of reference

13:00 I think I actually really like modern D3's progression in seasonal journey's. You start off with a bit of a headstart from the challenge rift, go do the worst part of leveling instantly (upgrading vendors and grabbing the cube, maybe you gamble for a cubed legendary), then you're given a list of goals that you'd do anyways with a huge reward. Stuff like hit level 50, reroll an item, kill each boss at any difficulty, etc. Once you do your early tier seasons journey and hit 70 you have a build put together that's usually easy to understand yet powerful. From that point, you're given challenges that are optional (gives cosmetic rewards) or you can follow your own progression to get better set pieces, a different set or two, your target legendaries, etc. I think it's the best 3 tier system we've gotten in a long time, I just wish the end game was a little better.

Idk all ive spent was 15 bucks on founders and have had great fun ever since. There are a lot of things to improve in the game and like we hear time and time again from LA veterans, we are currently playing the worse version of the game, without all the compelling content. However I dont think that’ll change much for people who don’t enjoy the core content loop in the game. I absolutely love the ARPG combat and aesthetics so I am still loving and waiting for update parity with KR/RUS. Also im just sucker for asian mmo priorities, aka aesthetics, aka booba

"whenever players were confronted with social intraction in WoW classic they did everything they could to avoid it" well. depending on the servers. regular servers yes, RP servers like grobulous not so much! You guys seen Barny64's videos it got crazy over there. I still remember that holloween event. I never farmed bugs but I was full for the horde mode raining hell out of the trenches to keep the alliance scum out of our hives till things calmed down and people realized more fighting ment less bugs Oh there were still bots and people spamming chat LFG/LFR, but social interactions actually happened!

The thing is, when i was a kid i was looking for end builds and best playstyles regardless, i was only interested in the environment and everything between at the beginning. If you're out to do the most difficult endcontent and wanna see everything the game has to offer, there's no other way. I guess not many ppl see the game as I did tho, I always wanted to be the best. Hope Dragonflight brings back some of the old days, cuz I miss old WoW.

I just dont expect much difference going from different mmos or games nowadays. i just learned to accept that what i want out of a game is just a technological feat that cant happen currently. So now i just play when i feel like it and dont rush anything and it makes it much more fun for me.

asmongold hasn't noticed that old mmo gamers are out for rpg and adventure. not mount farming and other garbage. the old mmo gamers no longer have their games. a nice immersive mmo doesnt exist. but asmongold is too wrapped up the same garbage every other modern mmo playe ris. lost ark

Its painfully obvious that Asmongold has never played a good sandbox mmorpg ever; he has a hard time fathoming gameplay experiences outside of themeparks. Although to be fair he is totally correct if the convo was about themepark mmos. It's almost kind of sad to think some people have only played in the fast-food MMO bubble for their whole rpg experience.

6:30 I'm still playing BDO because the combat is so good. I've played just about every class and my favorite is Berserker succession, he's so fast and his vertical leap after his running dash move is insane. You feel like the Hulk playing him it's so fun. 😂 Albeit his combat before succession/awakening is really weak for some reason (which feels very ironic given his massive size) so it's painful to level up at first.

I enjoyed RuneScape leveling back in the day, while it's still farming resources there'd always be groups of people farming that resource with you making for a good way to make friends in the game

I'll say it here when I see people say "FFxiv isn't a real MMO". People forget that Star Wars: Galaxies was a thing, a full year before WoW's release. An MMO focused more on giving the player tools for them to create their own little story or social experience then raids or dungeons. I don't see people say Star Wars: Galaxies isn't a real MMO. All FFxiv is doing now is taking the ball that SW: Galaxies dropped when SW:G tried to become another WoW clone.

I think the turning point of video games was youtube/twitch because it incentivized people to seek content in exchange for money. World of Warcraft is one of the better examples of this because world first is a heavily money and time backed project. Most of those players are actually paid a salary to sit there and play the game all day for the prestige to solicit a brand. To my knowledge, video games were never this heavily corporatized in older mmo's because there was no money to be made in doing it....until youtube/twitch. Sure gold selling and botting was a thing but now that more money is at play there is only more reasons to intensify it. Now mmo's are riddled with botting, hacking, rmt, service exchanges, and all kind of crazy money induced nonsense because of how much money they can make doing it. I truly believe the architype of mmo's can't function very well because capitalism is clashing against it's core design. You simply can't make a fun online mmo game when most of its players are using it for their own self interests elsewhere.

I think if you provided a hard mode questing difficulty with rewards that were substantially better then ppl would fall in line just like mmo players fall in line just like they do for meta builds and they would group up to finish it. As an example they could provide repeatable time walking challenges in wow with significant rebuffs on your character for greater rewards.

Best character progression in an MMO was 75 era FFXI where you had 3 expansions of content and gear all of which was mix and max to optimise. You kinda have the same with like 2 expansions in XI now but it's not quite as horizontal.

talking about the 'dark path' of the mmo genre, but has a shameless advertisement for a mobile game. Irony

I disagree with a lot that Asmon said. I think the quality of a lot of the mmos now a days is just not good. I'm not chasing my childhood. I played Elden Ring and immediately had the same feeling I had when I first played Skyrim. I wanted to play all day. I thought about it all day. Games like that can still exist. It's not chasing nostaglia from 10 or 15 years ago, it's about playing a good fking game; which now a days is a hard ask.

It's also a time thing. I had a blast on ARR, beating titan and tcob. I had plenty of time a few years ago and could commit to spending hours with a static, not anymore though. So when I went back to endwalker or shadowlands, I always reached the stage where I can start raiding, but realize I just don't have the time so I just quit. Well that, and the dailies/weekly checkpoints you have to do in order to stay on par/relevant. Before that I just had a blast on gw2, d3, before that had a blast on sro and tibia, d2 etc.

Rolled a mage for the same reason. Called it Rhonin because I had read the books. Come Wrath when they put him in the game I logged on to him and had a forced name change.

I'm kind of a freak when it comes to how I play games. You are absolutely right, most players want to rush, and skip, and fast travel their way to the end credits as fast as humanly possible. I don't. in fact I actively avoid completing games I enjoy. for example: i LOVE souls borne games. i have only ever completed DS2 because I didn't enjoy it that much. DS1,3 and bloodborne I have nearly completed many times, but I don't want to finish them because then there is nothing new for me to experience from them. i play MMO's excessively slowly for the same reason, the last thing I want is to complete the most recent content. because then I what? spam dailies and wait for more to come out in 6 months? fuck that. why would I want to get to that boring ass part of the game? I've been playing FF14 for 4 years, interacting with all the side content and moving slowly through the game; I haven't even started SB yet (after 4 years). i love the world and I never want to get to the point where the game has nothing more to offer me, or surprise me with. so my goal is to play slower than content is released so I NEVER catch up. it keeps me coming back, because I always have a goal I have yet to experience. it's a very old-school way to play games for sure, so I know i'm in a HUGE minority of people who approach games like I do. but... to each their own.

Fundamentally the games have changed. Newer games never give you an opportunity to feel weak, and without allowing the character to feel weak, you never feel like you've become stronger. Consider classic wow armor. It isn't until level 50 you start seeing gear that looks unique in any way. Up until then, leather shirt looks like a leather shirt. Chain mail armor looks like a boring, generic chain mail texture. It wasn't until 60 you started finding gear that had interesting silhouettes. Every weapon looked generic until level 60 legendaries or the occasional blue, or quest item (like the whirlwind axe). It isn't about arbitrary "meaningfulness", nowadays every level 10 toon has to look like a badass or the game will be criticized for bad design of armor. Everyone has pauldrons the size of a torso by level 15, and you only get more and more ridiculous. There is no immersion, no character progression because it feels like we're at end game from the moment the game starts. The same goes for mechanics. How did it feel as a level 1 druid whacking your staff on some plainstriders? Compared to how does it feel level 1 in Lost Ark? The chonky, beefy sound effects feel like I'm insanely powerful... like, how? Why? I'm level 1, it should feel like everything is bigger than me, like I'm weak, so that when the weapons later on have the crazy effects, and chonky sound effects, then I actually feel like I've PROGRESSED. There is no progression, either in terms of scale of ridiculousness of gear visually or scale of ridiculousness in terms of gameplay.

I'm never going to have it again either because I'm looking for 2007 burning crusade. Unfortunately the boost and pug mentality transfered from retail to classic so I can't even get my fix in BC classic.

Dang.. the beginning of this hit me in the feels... you are right though, us older gamers who are like 26-35 are ALL looking for that feeling that originally made us love rpg games, I've tried basically most rpg games now.. and it's not that any rpg game is garbage.. but the old brotherhood of friends who all played rpg games together was missing.. and it hit me.. I don't miss a good rpg game... I miss playing rpg games with the bros..where we would spend the weekends grinding the game, hyped up on Mt dew, and vibing with the bros Edit: it also breaks my heart knowing gaming back in the day with my homies will probably be the best memories I have now that I look back on it..and I know that feeling of brotherhood and gaming with the bros will never happen again in that aspect qnd capacity..as we all get older and have our own lives now and responsibilities.

Kiras memories of Classic Wow are so wrong. Everyone and their moms dog had tier 3, most people even had alts with tier 3. You literally got raid buffs log in, see if you get loot then log off. The only reasons it was different back then is the flow of information was different and minmaxing was harder.

Asmongold talking about “it’s not us,” and used the shittiest MMO that came out saying “it doesn’t have micro transactions,” like that was an actual argument against what the guy said.

I'm glad Moon Guard's playerbase was mentioned. MG is the first RP server I joined, and I have been on it a few years now. Even if you aren't directly involved, I love seeing players walk the streets and lower level zones of the game just enjoying the universe. Despite what people say, I've puged with a few Alliance Guilds for pbp and raiding on there and have had good experiences with some skilled players. I've learned to appreciate the more subtle and "casual" aspects of the game than tryharding end game content that is no longer rewarding as it used to be.

Yup, this video resonates with me and other quite well. My very first game ever when I got my laptop when I was 14(excluding Gameboy and Playstation games) back in 2007 was RUNESCAPE, the awesome friends and the huggggeee long journey of leveling up your character, the attempts at God wars without really giving a shit if we were being efficient and then having the talks about how we can do better to kill the boss and also PVP was just so fucking fun doing all that with friends. Now that all my friends have mainly moved on in life, I don't get to play with other people. I know I've changed but I'm still down to be bros with someone but everyone I DO play with only seem to have their goals they want to achieve and move on. This happens in every MMO I've tried.