I was gonna say that.

I love how genuinely hurt he looks there. XD

"Is pathological idiot an actual condition?"

I get the feeling that it's been closer to 40 years...

Spike totally unashamed ;)

@@s-094cam5 Nah, they haven't ever spent that much time together in universe, let alone once astronauts were a thing.

Because Spike HAS TO KNOW and Angel is too curious to actually give up

Spike's thinking 'It wasn't THAT long.'

It's a Guy thing.

Joss even said that over several seasons of Buffy and Angel, this might actually be the best emotion they've ever gotten out of David xD

The frustration is so feral, it's great 😂

Lol probably the only real acting I’d seen

Definitely gave me Frasier Crane vibes there lol.

I’ve got “You just want it to be the way you want it to be” stuck in my head.

That delivery is perfect

@@chuckielover06 Yeah, it's actually pretty fucking brilliant, and it makes the scene for me.

@@chuckielover06 Yeah, there's something about that delivery that cracks me up every time.

Oh they've been having this argument since June of 1969.

I might be a couple years late to this argument but my bets on the astronauts assuming both parties are unarmed and the astronauts aren’t in spacesuits. Neanderthals are short and stocky and while that could be enough to take out a regular person who doesn’t exercise, astronauts are top physical specimens like the Rangers or Seals. Combine longer arms and more weight behind punches and kicks with the evolved human sense of strategic teamwork and caveman superstition, this is a mid-diff for the astronauts at worst

sounds serious, this should go to congress

Eh, it's the same thing 😄

April of 61 actually. First astronaut or cosmonaut Yuri gargarin.

Well I think at this point he was already suspicious of Angel and the black Thorn so this serious conversation threw him off lol

Gunn even warned him not to go into the office

He seems a bit self conscious about it too, just not as much. (which really encapsulates the entire dynamic that has always existed between the two characters IMHO)

Angel is a bit embarrassed, getting caught having such a childish argument. But he also wants Wesley to say his opinion and to hopefully back him up 😁

Spikes knows no shame 😅

I think they slept together

@@sb-ue4ey likely but their relationship definitely isnt romantic. Probably a bit of immortal experimentation.

Actually, it was because of scientific advancement that Angel argues in favor of astronauts. The Judge was a demon who required an army to cut into pieces, but Buffy didn’t need an army, she used a rocket launcher to blow him up. Angel witnessed this event first hand.

Wow. Dark. And kinda brilliant, in a morbid way.

Thanks. You’ve ruined this joke for me now. But on the other hand I always said astronauts would win. It using it as a metaphor for the ancient vs the modern……. Relating to Fred’s disease and her science.

I never thought about that until you said it.😢

Then I was right in choosing cavemen, but at what cost

lol

wait...it didn't?!

theres a fun movie cavemen vs astronauts like cowboys vs aliens

Cavemen is team Cap and astronauts is team Iron Man, right?

@@elizabethification771 Iron Man suits up like one, and Cap does have the strength of cavemen

Considering astronauts have only existed for well less than a hundred years, I'm not sure that I agree.

They would sure be fighting over something else...

permeus2nd Yeah, but I’m guessing cavemen kicked astronaut butt in the Eighteenth Century.

Just the thought of that makes me laugh my ass off

Doubtful,if only because astronauts haven't been around that long and the only point (that we know of) where they were around each other since the advent of space travel was the several month span after Angel lost his soul.

After all, by the vampiric biology, Spike it's indeed the "bratty grandkid" of Angel

deomartinez77 there’s nothing ridiculous about it. Im not saying that because i have these kinds of conversations all the time 😂😂😂

Yes he should have been his PI friend.

that would of been good, have it be a guy that he always argued with then have the rest of the cast or one person walk into the room with them arguing about this

Can the caveman be Bam Bam Rubble. I would bet on Bam Bam any day.

Maddox Tolliver that’s what I’ve been saying ever since i first say that episode.

all valid questions. we need answers.

I find the mom analogy hilarious considering Angel is ten times her age

I could just imagine her saying "oh my god", rolling her eyes and walking away, but thinking about it later, maybe bringing it up to Xander or something 😂

Buffy lol, if Darla came back alive she would stake herself again after seeing this

Buff woulda beat up spike sayin.... caveman

@@corrinabarnett8226 and then Xander would get in on the debate. Because who would win, an astronaut or a caveman

Exactly. Firstly she’s that If cavemen get to use fire, astronauts should have a weapon at least. Basically, on the side of science etc, but then she realises cavemen win. The old, primal thing will always win (I’m not crying you’re crying).

Ok, but breath of fresh air into this, but Astronauts are military trained.

@@shadesofjade Not commando training. The average military man, like my father, does basic training. Gets you fit and sharp, but not even necessarily so much as an Olympic athlete. Then you spend years behind a desk as an engineer making plans, or sitting in a pilot's seat - most astronauts have pilot or engineer backgrounds. The level of hand-to-hand warrior experience they would have would be almost nil unless they had frontline commando experience or martial arts training, which is by no means a given. They'd be fit for going into space, but not any stronger than the cavemen and likely less experienced. So the jury is still out 😆.

And I would watch the whole thing not even gonna lie

@@sinloi2675 Well there are probably online forums like this. Reading would be about 40min? Lol

No weapons though. Astronauts on the other hand on the other hand would have the benefit of staying calm in extreme situations so they could lead them to a trap. That being said astronauts experience muscle atrophy after extended periods in 0G so they would be much weaker than cavemen. Now if the fight was taking place in space that's a whole other scene. Thanks for coming to my TED talk

Wrong, because, first, no weapons, and second, if it’s 2 out of 3 and it’s a different person each clash at there physical peak, then the vote goes in favor of astronauts. The vast majority of astronauts are military trained and that includes hand to hand combat. They will hit where it hurts and use every dirty trick to win, regardless of morals.

A solider can be an astronaut it’s being an astronaut doesn’t mean you over analyze or hesitate. It’s not mutually exclusive

BS. Astros would improvise fire weapons and scare the cavemen away.

I mean, if we are having a serious discussion, and not just a lark, Astronauts are stronger, faster, and smarter than Cavemen. Cavemen would likely be less restrained and predictable, and more than likely would attack first. But, I just think the Astronauts innate advantages are too much for the cavemen to overcome without the use of weapons.

They dont have weapons

Right. But the cavemen have fire. Who makes these rules?

Angels right cave men would run at the site of anything

Neanderthals were supposedly quite strong and very fast

@@disturbed157 Neanderthals were never fast. Strong, yes, but that didn't help them against homo sapiens and their brains and agility. Which are both much more valuable in a fist fight than brute strength. @Michael Bonés What are you talking about? Cro-magnon were shorter than modern humans. They were also "broader" which doesn't relate to strength, just lack of agility.

Cavemen had to fight and kill their food so I'm thinking they would be faster than astronauts. In addition if an astronaut has been to space a couple of times it will impact their body. But they are still quite brilliant and may be able to outsmart cavemen.

@@LyricalXilence you forget how smart cavemen had to be. You tested everyday and a passing grade meant you lived.

Astronauts are military trained and can survive in outer-space, cavemen would die in outer-space.

@@eyeseer1 survive in outer space is a stretch. All you do is put a tiny stretch in the space suit and they die

agreed

Have you seen Fred and Barney. They would get their butts kicked. However a full grown Bam Bam would tear the astronauts apart. Come to think about it, so would little Bam Bam. 😁😁😁

A lot of astronauts are recruited from the air force so they have military training my money is on the astronauts

I think Wesley actually has the best point as the entire argument hinges on whether or not the astronauts have weapons/equipment.

The astronauts would use their superior intelligence to make weapons! Besides, astronauts are fit so there's no reason the cavemen would overpower them, the human body hasn't changed that much.

What did you agree on at the end

no astronauts win, just kidding i agree cavemen

So... the malnourished, untrained moron would stand a chance against an astronaut who has to experience some of the most rigorous physical testing to actually be selected? I mean, weaponless hand-to-hand combat isn't around that long because in that era, a fight was about survival or killing, so they'd go with weapons. In other words: with weapons, astronauts are very easy victors, without weapons the caveman wouldn't know what to even do while the astronaut is likely trained in martial arts of some kind as well as being aware of much more of it by osmosis. Strategically, a modern human will also be much smarter - I mean, try teaching the concept of a feint or dodge to an orang-utan. And again: the cavemen lacks the reach, the cavemen lacks the strength due to generally worse food, the cavemen lacks the discipline to be calm and smart in a fight. It's not even close to being a contest. Angel is the worst, but at least he's right that one time in his unlife.

@@DrZaius3141 A compelling argument, but there are a few key flaws in your reasoning: 1) "malnourished" - If by "malnourished" you mean "spent their entire life on a diet of actual real foods that were pure nutrition instead of continuously gorging themselves on chemical-enhanced trash", uh, sure I guess? They didn't eat as much as we do, but what they ate was all good stuff, and they ate as much as they needed to instead of feasting excessively like we do. 2) "rigorous physical training" - Sorry, friend, but there is no physical training more rigorous than spending every moment of your life fighting just to survive. We humans have grown complacent in our modernity, even those of us who think we're strong or physically fit, we have no idea what it's like to spend every moment at the mercy of mother nature. Nothing astronauts go through can begin to compare to a lifetime in the wilds, surrounded by real dangers that could kill them any moment. 3) "try teaching a feint to an orangutan" - We're not talking about orangutans, we're talking about human beings. Your point about "moron" also goes to this point - early humans were NOT stupid, in fact it was intelligence that gave them an edge over their environment and allowed them to survive, even back then. Granted, we've developed more refined techniques for combat over the millennia, but cavemen were just as capable of thinking, feeling, and improvising as we are. And, again, their survival instincts would be a lot stronger, their will to survive and prevail more honed and sharp, they may find themselves 'feinting' without having any idea that it's a thing just out of desperation. Knowledge ≠ intelligence. Most of all, though, I think the advantage the cavemen would have over the astronauts in this hypothetical scenario is that the astronauts would be inclined to do the very thing you're doing now: grossly underestimate the cavemen. Just because cavemen didn't reign supreme over all of nature like we do, just because cavemen don't have the millennia of scientific study that we do, just because they don't have access to as much food as we do, that must make them weak and stupid. The astronauts would be complacent from the outset, while the cavemen would be giving everything they had, in a way they'd spent their whole lives training to do that, again, the astronauts have not. Still, I'm glad we can agree on one thing: Angel is indeed the worst. XD

Not against a martial artist they wouldn't! Other than that....yeaaaah, cavemen win

@@Wandergirl108 there is a major problem with this argument. Cavemen werent physically dominant in the world through power, nor were we particularly deadly one on one. They mastered their environment through teamwork, and hunted our prey to near extinction by pursuit hunting. Literally chacing our prey to the ends of the earth because we never stop walking. So while obviously the caveman like most pre industrial humans has a better muscle to fat ratio than the average modern human, they're not actually that much stronger than an athletic human now. They probably have better endurance, but actual strength/power advantage? Not really. And the other thing is that the astronaut is a soldier. All NASA astronauts are either pilots or engineers in the air force and I believe the navy too. These people train to be lethal and recieve the best nutrition possible. Physically speaking, the astronaut has the edge here except for in endurance

@@fangsabre I just want to point out that not all military people are commando trained. Especially ones who are doing jobs that don't require front-line training. Most astronauts are former pilots and engineers, people who sit behind controls or a desk to do their work. I don't think, unless they had black belts in karate on the side, they would be stronger than hunter-gatherer warriors who spent most of their lives fighting hand to hand for survival. If the debate was between cavemen and frontline troops/commandos, then yes, the cavemen would lose. But that's not the military pool most astronauts are chosen from.

I still hate them. I watch nothing of theirs. But, I am older & wiser, so I blame Whedon as well.

Yes but the WB brought their own dissolution on themselves when they let Buffy go to UPN and cancelled Angel. They have no one to blame but themselves.

You're not wrong. Sometimes my guy friends and I pick arguments over the dumbest stuff just to release stress.

im a girl and i love these kinds of conversations

That depends - do the viking helmets have horns?

Is the samurai Keanu or Tom???

Samurais are strategic in unarmed combat & ninja training. Vikings are immoral, Samurai have codes. Samurais have style.

And unlike what the average assumption seems to be in these comments, having military training is not some super strength. I come from a military family. Most, but not all, officers are reasonably fit. You go through basic training at the start of your career, and if you then sit at a desk job for twenty years, you can get a bit out of shape same as anyone. Unless you have commando training a caveman's hand to hand fighting skills will be better. But if the astronaut DOES have commando training . . .well, good NIGHT!

Yes, but do they have access to anything to make weapons from in this scenario? Technology can't exist without the basic raw material first. Which come to think of it, may have just been the point of this episode.

Astronaut would win for sure.

Astronauts versus cavemen implies they would have to be in an area both can get to.

James Marsters is american