No human should ever say the phrase "you probably aren't watching enough KZfaq fitness."

I know it's a hypothetical example but 2 inches on your arm in 12 weeks is a WILD place for the brain to jump to.

My favorite part is that you site your sources in the description, including athelean-x. Although i dont typically like Jeff's methodologies, referencing the material + the research hits just right. Thanks Milo!

Yeah I left jeff's orb years ago when I noticed the fear mongering he tended to do. Glad he's turning it aroundish lol

Jeff has been talking about partials in the lengthened position for a long time he just never used the phrase “long lengthened partials” he speaks on eccentric overloading with a focus on the stretch and staying in that range for growth.

It's quite interesting for me personally to see my personal growth in understanding that field. I remember when in 2016 or something like this I used to do just super cheated pullups, pushups and couple movements every day because i was only starting, watch translation of AtleanX to my native language and thought that he is an expert. And now, many years past, I doing lengthened partials elevated heal squad, still do some pullups, but full ROM and slow escentric and no cheating, and I know english and watch people like you, Milo. Makes me feel better knowing that i'm making progress as a person and educate myself.

When are we getting the best beard exercises for facial hair Hypertrophy?

Im gonna play devils advocate against Lengthened Partials here muahaha. I 100% love milo's content and I do believe Lengthened Partials is great for hypertrophy. But that being said, context matters. Enjoyability of an exercise and adherence to the exercise plays a very important factor too. If you do not like the long length partial version of the exercise and you do not like that style of training you do not have to do it. Most people are not competing for bodybuilding. They just wanna looked jacked and if you enjoy doing spider curls over incline curls and that gets you in the gym more then do spider curl. If you love face pulls (which is jeff's fetish, I swear the man cant go a gym day without facepulls and may need to see a psych), do it. Enjoying an exercise is a great reason to keep it in your program even if it is not optimal.

"Lengthened partials" don't even feel like words anymore.

I think you may be slightly mischaracterizing Jeff's point when you say that he suggests "do everything." A possibly better characterization would be: "exclude nothing." For instance, doing a dumbbell lateral raise isn't going to allow as big a stretch in the lengthened position as a cable lateral (since you can't get in as much of a lengthened position), but it's still a great exercise, particularly if what you mostly have access to is dumbbells, and even if you have access to machines. No need to exclude it out of obsessive fealty to the stretch or to lengthened partials. Jeff also added another important perspective that you didn't address, namely, that assuming a 5-10% increase is possible through lengthened partials over full ROM, that doesn't mean that your muscle will be 5-10% bigger. It means your GAINS could be 5-10% greater. It's the difference between gaining an inch on your arms, say from 16 to 17 inches, versus gaining 1.05 - 1.1 inches on your arm: so going from 16 to 17.05 or 17.1. Your arm won't be 5-10% bigger; you'll just have a slightly bigger gain. Instead of a 17-inch arm, you'll have, optimistically, a 17.1-inch arm. That's not to say that that extra increase isn't worth pursuing, just that it isn't worth obsessing over to the point that you exclude anything that you think doesn't give you that slight extra gain, no matter the potential benefit of what you're excluding. That was his point, and I think it's well taken.

Its true, jeff is right and dr milo wolf is coping. I used to struggle to deadlift 5 plates, but within 3 months of doing face pulls, i now deadlift the world record. Cheers c*n*s

Think we are going to get a full album

All I know is that short muscle lengths can get the knife.

Both provide great points. Grab the knowledge and just do what works best for you.

Upright row partials would feel like the biggest cop-out.

great video thanks !

A potential problem with the study you quoted regarding accentuated eccentric loading is that if the eccentric portion of the lift isn't increased by a significant amount, then surely the results yielded from that study showing little to no difference in hypertrophy gains will be because of the fact that the weight can't be increased by too much for safety reasons etc. A more interesting study that would show whether this is truly the case is if say group A does bicep curls, with both concentric and eccentric phases, while group B does concentric only curls with double the volume (to match the overall volume of the first group). My money would be on group A.

for more lengthened facepulls, what about doing them in the cable row station so you can get more stretch?

At 20:52: Is Brad Schoenfeld a co-author of half or more of the sport science papers that get published this days?

I swear I love those thumbnails

I dig Wolf Coaching but i have to say ive tried the cable crossover for years and just can't get comfortable with them over a single arm crossover or a heavy facepull style row from the side on an incline or elevated flat bench, if needed i can demonstrate, its a good one.

Are there studies for lengthened partials on the pecs, and also for the upper back/lats?

Love long length partial and Myo sets wow

Are there certain muscle groups that are better suited to long length partials, or is there evidence that all skeletal muscles are well suited to them?

Thanks for staying professional, Milo. You could have just gone off on a rant and trash it through and through, but you stayed level-headed. I would like to add, perhaps by being charitable towards Jeff, that his claim might sound less hyperbolic by highlighting the fact that he did mention "addressing the weak link", and though I am aware that there are many potentially confounding factors at play, perhaps one of the bases to cover is that weak link that Jeff purports to address by prescribing face pulls.

I knew this was coming lol

Good video. I think Jeff agrees and understands that the lengthened partial in a specific exercise where it can be used will give more hypertrophy than full range of motion. He doesn't dispute that in a controlled scientific setting. Jeff's response was to a random commenter who was trying to design an entire training program around exercises that ONLY use the lengthened partial. So you two were talking past each other.

That bit about calf raises has reminded me of something. I wonder when I hear of a comparison of different training methods for either limb whether it's taken into consideration that (as I understand it) if you train one limb some effect can be observed in the other limb (I believe there's a technical term for this effect, but I've just spent all day hiking and my brain's soup right now 🤣). So, lets say for simplicity's sake you test high weight low rep curls on the left arm and low weight high rep curls on the right to see which gives you better results. If you see clearly for all subjects the right side gets significantly bigger by all metrics, the obvious conclusion is that low weight high reps is more hypertrophic. But... what if high weight low reps has a greater effect of working on the opposite limb, so it's actually the wrong limb you're focusing on? Is there a way to control for that? Thinking about it in the opposite direction, is there a way to test specifically for how each limb's training method affects the opposite limb? Is it a myth that it happens at all? Do we have sufficient evidence to say with confidence either way if it's a real phenomenon or not? If only I'd stuck around to PhD level, perhaps I could have been the opposite limb training guy. 🤔 I think when I first read about this idea it was based on work done with people who had an injured limb that couldn't be trained for a long time, where the opposite limb was trained as normal along with training the rest if the body as normal (as much as was possible) and observably less atrophying occurred in the injured limb compared to subjects who didn't train the opposite limb but did otherwise continue training as normal. Perhaps even if less atrophy is observed, it doesn't necessarily follow that greater hypertrophy would be observed, but it would show that there's a potential factor that needs addressing when comparing one limb with the opposite limb's training.

"If you're gonna get 5-10 % more muscle growth in the following 3 years, are you excited? Maybe you shouldn't be." Solid argument Cavaliere, solid argument. I'd like to hear of an intervention that got significantly bigger results at the gym, I believe that would start to look like taking steroids or someone who's doing bad job at the gym versus someone doing good job genetics aside. Like would I want to get 10 % bigger muscles? I probably would, seems like a pretty noticeable difference.

I asked for this video in the comments sometime back 😅

I LOL'd when Jeff attributed Jessy's deadlift to facepulls. lmao. I'm facepalming at the continuous insistence on facepulls.

5-10% of a small increase based on a few months is not +1.5 inches arm circumference. It's more like +0.1"

Which weak links will be fixed by face pulls?

Are exercises that involve rowing motions generally bad for long length partial training?

Just love how Jeff picks how much muscle you can build in a 12 weeks lol

Dr. Milo please clear this. To this day many say training legs hard will also help upper body grow indirectly. Yes or no?

I'm surprised he didn't mention that Jeff messed up his "increasing your bench gains" example. He said that if you increase your bench by 10% you go from 250-275 but what you would be doing is increasing your bench GAINS so if someone GAINED 250 POUNDS on their bench that would be ludicrous over the course of a study.

Is athlean x still around? When i started lifting and youtube was bombarding me with his vids i started the "do not recommend" and i have not seen any recommendations for like 5 years

eccentric portion is related to long length partials because in order to do long length partials you have to get to the deepest part of the eccentric movement. I get your point that a lengthened partial is both an eccentric and concentric movement but it still involves getting in the deepest eccentric portion of the movement. so even though I don’t like jeff, he’s still sorta right about the subject more than yourself.

At 12:05 did he say 50 percent or 15 percent?

I don't know about anyone else, but I'd take 2.2 inches over 2 inches of extra bicep size any day.

Milo, where did you grow up? You have such a unique accent

Can you please wait like 5-7 days for edema to dissipate before you measure when you study, its so easy to do and will benefit your findings.

I don't get how someone can do ONLY long length partials. Like sure for muscle growth it may be slightly better (more likely equivalent given the variety of exercises and how it can differ over all exercises) but you're skipping out like half of the movement. I think for general strength and stuff, the full range is better. Like on a bench press for example, I still don't think just bottom range reps are "optimal", like sure they locally train the chest better, but surely you want that tricep lockout strength, that overall pushing strength. Can't say I disagree with a lot of Jeff's points here (face pull fetish aside). Also very individual, and I think my powerlifting bias is coming in here a little bit.

It's not even the same exercises. 😂😂😂

Thank God someone finally talked about area under the curve in regards to TUT. It's such a simple concept but I've never seen someone mention it on KZfaq.

This is a hilarious length to go to defend the honor of the face pull. I don't understand why he's so determined to come up with as many random strawman defenses as possible of one random exercise. Also, if you're going to pick an exercise to glorify above all others, why the face pull??? At least pick the deadlift or something cause it's a cool powerlifting compound lift.

awesome

I do full range until last set and end set with lengthened partials on some exercises

Comparing isolation movements to compound. And Isotonic. One thing that I hear about Isotonic not being useful alone is that you can get strength on pertucular hold, but not others. And that is why Isotonic need to paired with concentric and eccentric is that it gives strength to all ranges. Partial ranges seam like they can give you the initial strength in difficult areas. But it may not be conducive like Isotonic in a practical sense for all ranges when challenged with all ranges. And I feel like for something like a compound lift you may not be engaging the secondary muscles as much as compared to before. If you do leg press and do partials do you really get all the secondary muscles or do they need to be fully stretched in the exercise to engage.

One example I use is overhead strength and positioning. Things such as Olympic lifts can benefit of certain exercises such lu raises or super Rom lateral raises. For all round hypertrophy, shoulder girdle strength, health and mobility. That’s something u can’t get through partials.

Imagine if Hafthor Bjornsson had trained facepulls. His max deadlift would have been 1500 pounds.

Jeff's videos really helped me at one point fix a lot of stupid things I was doing ay the gym, particularly with pushing exercises. His content also helped me find more movements I could do when I was working through injuries or hitting plateaus early on. But he's become deeply outclassed by many other content creators at this point, his programs that he sells aren't very good, and he hasn't really adapted to what's out there, yet his audience continues to grow. This is a great case where he could have looked at the face pull exercise and maybe tried to find an alternative to it that was LLP friendly for people who wanted try something different -- like maybe a dumbbell/barbell bent over face pull where you can keep your hands wider at the start of the lift could help create additional tension in the stretched position. He could still argue the point that the marginal increase isn't worth the convolution, but provide his audience with another option. But even stuff like corrective exercises should in theory mechanistically work in part by increasing muscle size/capacity/range of motion for smaller muscles -- so I don't really get why focusing on hypertrophy optimization wouldn't be a desirable application.

React to Mr America hearts latest video on long length partials (he mentions you and Dr Mike israetel)

I used to drink the Jeff Clown kool-aid but then I learned to lift weights with real plates on the bar.

Weird to keep showing Sulek for lengthened partials. That clip shows him ego lifting without going into full stretch.

Dr Gains.. do a review of any of his videos..

When it comes to preferences i like to do what i call "chest pulls" so it's like face pulls but you pull to the chest instead so the traps and the romboids are being targeted over the rear deltoids since these are gonna stretch the back muscles more than the rear delts would with ethier the chest or face pulls. I don't understand why there isn't a name for the exercise that i'm doing wich is way more practical than the face pulls anyway.

Lengthened Partials vs Loaded Stretching?

only ever do lengthened partials now you cannot argue with science

I'm still kinda stuck on Jesse pulling 560-pounds.... ;). I seem to remember Jeff kinda getting caught on the 500-lb deadlift fake lift--so he did it for real--and was vibrating like a....vibrator, barely making the lift--struggling much more than Jesse did here. but I digress....

If you compare, let’s say the bicep to a rope and if you put too much strain on one part of the rope, it might fray quicker then if you use the entire thing also the part that you’re fraying is closer to the ligament and tendon and joints but then again I’m not a scientist. What do I know?

As a physio I would like to inform on jeff's claim "Corrective" exercises that prevent injuries and "correct posture" is not supported by evidence and its not a term that most evidence based clinicians use. Any exercise can be identified as "Corrective" and posture is not due to tight or weak muscles ( this has been debunked).......posture is affected way more by psychosocial factors like depression and anxiety and can be corrected just by you being more mindful about it. No Corrective exercise is needed.....just any form of exercise can help

Look, if it turned out that going beyond failure with LPs was the only way to grow my calves, I'd just live with small calves 😅 I put up with 4 weeks of cramping hell and it can get in the bin!

How big is your bicep

i dont even like his form of face pulls... thumbs back, hands above shoulders forces you to rotate your shoulders back, which ultimately recruits more of your side delts than your rear delts. It also forces you to recruit your triceps a little to keep your hands out and above your shoulders. its better to grab the rope between your middle and ring fingers, with the balls of the rope in your palms, then pull the outside of your hands to the temples of your head. focusing on keeping your palms aimed outward, thumbs down, elbows only slightly above your shoulders, and shoulders rotated forward in order to target those rear delts as much as possible.

I’m still convinced that ‘Jeff Cavalier’ is a Chevy Chase character from the movie Fletch

Training with 1RM produces maximal MUR and MT but only in 1 rep so it would be highly innefficient. Watch Paul and Chris podcast no the 5 rep stimulating model🥃🎩

very intrestin

Jesse reminds me of a pug, behaviour and looks (not knocking pugs, or Jesse)

I think a lot of people run afowl when they start making the claim "this is the best way to build muscle" Maybe it is for certain people but there's more than one way to do it and I think the term "best way" gets thrown around way too much

12:51 Bro is majestic 🗿

Jessie is actually the lost twin brother of dr. Milo Wolf

Did Jeff have a stroke? Why’s he only talk out of the left side of his mouth?

Face pulls are cool if you're a grandma that can only use light weight.

Critique Dr Jim Stoppani. He’s a great biochemist that makes great supplements through JYM Supplement Science. He has millions of followers and I am one of them. I’m more of a skeptic of his biomechanics and hypertrophy programs lately. Please please please

At this point, I think I only watch KZfaq fitness for the drama 🤷

tfw jesse moves like an actual body and athlean just preaches simplified anatomy bs, feels so surreal

I prefer muscles that both show and go. For me, muscles that are big and not strong aren't useful.

I think the biggest problem with lengthened partials is going to be muscle imbalances due to putting too much strain on one part of the muscle or head depending on which exercise you choose the way I use them is I incorporate them as an intensifier at the end of a workout Also, I would love to see studies on the entire functionality of a muscle not just hypertrophy using only lengthened partials

0:18 lincon partial

It's kinda unaddressed but Jesse definitely runs different programs than the Athlean-X brand. There was a video where Jeff and Jesse did a chest day together and Jesse did the pec-deck flye, which Jeff never recommends (hopefully someday Jeff digs up his "iron graveyard" exercises because most of them are actually good). Jesse's deadlift appears real by all accounts, but Jeff claiming credit may just be a bit of salesmanship As for Jeff's love of things like face pulls, the evidence based crowd regards the concept of "prehab" as baseless, but while a lot of the weirdo PT exercises are indeed useless as is most of his discussion on posture, I can anecdotally say a small number are actually quite good at preventing wear and tear. And I think it would be hard to truly test them in a lab setting

17:28 anatoly never do facepull

Facepulls = Bigger deadlifts?? 💀

Bro is so obsessed with this one exercise Damn

👍👍👍

Nuance

I don't want to be rude but lengthened partials are more effective than fake weights.

you think you coined.... a reverse cable crossover?

Funny talk considering that we are all gonna lift for years anyway and those topics are not going to make a single difference on your physique.

“I don’t care what Sam Sulek is doing” Love it! Same here, I don’t see the appeal.

Paralysis through analysis. We over-engineer so much to validate ourselves or something we want or support. I’m guilty of it. Just lift and change things up to keep yourself motivated to be consistent. I added lengthened partials and like them. But I added them to full range, drop sets, super sets, low rep ranges, high rep ranges and everything in between. Hot take… a good old tape measure to track circumference changes of your arms, along with how your shirts are fitting, are absolutely the best way to track hypertrophy progress in the real world. There’s no instrument in a lab that will give me more value than those two. One of my favorite KZfaq channels of any genre. Keep it up.

Half of Jeff’s lower lip (his right side) appears lifeless

Why was Jesse there? Lol

Wow his face is aging way faster than his body.

I saw this. Painful to watch. There are perhaps some good PT / strength reasons for doing full ROM, but to try to attack the hypertrophy with a load of babble and pseudoscience was poor. Jeff seems to be doing more and more of this of late.

Too much shoulder impinchment

I also don’t have serious faith in only doing lengthened partials due to not putting enough variation or emphasis on stabilization muscles. It’s kind of like if you work your biceps and triceps, but you never put any effort into your forearms. You’ll start to get deficits in your arm workouts because of a weakness that has been left untreated I’ve been working out for close to 20 years and I would just like for someone to explain where I might not be comprehending the usefulness of this methodology in comparison to full rom Maybe we just need more studies because it doesn’t make any sense to me training anything only at a specific degree and hitting a portion of a full full movement seems like a bad idea in the long-term

I never got the hype with Jeff. He claims that creatine monohydrate is trash and that his BCAAs are great. Fake plates, click-bate fear mongering. He kinda sucks.

AthleanX was one of the first people that influenced my fitness and exercise. But back in 2019 I just had to unsubscribe from him. His videos were not helping me at all anymore.