How is Harrowmont good intentioned? He oppresses the castless, while Bhelen actually makes things better for them.

***** But you are a gray warden and you dont really have the time to become a noble....And you become a Paragon if Bhelen is king aswell and take care of your kid. and the whole thing with Harrowmont basicly ruins Orzammar within 10 years a city who held out of constant seige since the Darkspawn came to be....That is beyond horrible.

Isn't [SPOILER]Harrowmont + Anvil Destroyed[/SPOILER] the best ending for the dwarves?

Gisle Aune Only if you want orzammar to fall. but the anvil should be destroyed. Harrowmont sucks as a leader. he makes the town fall in a generation. "Unfortunately, that isolated the dwarves even further from the surface. Caste restrictions and the rights of the nobles both grew, and trade with the human lands was all but cut off.” "“In Orzammar, King Harrowmont found himself in a protracted battle against Bhelen's rebellion that left him unable to gain the stability he needed. The clan lords objected to many of his measures in the Assembly, and only his efforts to increase the dwarves' isolation from the surface met with any success.” "“When the first human armies arrived from Ferelden, they found themselves blocked at the city gates. Harrowmont feared the disruption the humans would cause and permitted only limited aid in the form of equipment and herbal medicines.”"

ragsash Ah, I stand corrected then. I must have remembered the Bhelen endings wrongly or read the wrong thread when looking up the endings for Orzammar.

His sister/brother in law has use to him, while his actual siblings means nothing but walls he has to overcome.

He may actually care about the player noble dwarf more then he lets on in the third game when the warden goes missing he unlike harrowmount does not give up search for him and i think both name him a paragon.

​@@Wilsontripplets You made him king. It reflects poorly on him if he doesn't look for you when you vanish. He's all about looks, remember?

Draupnir Foamybeard To be honest both are incompetent, because Bioware doesn't understand politics at all. They've also Flanderized Harrowmont's incompetence to kiss Bhelen's ass. Bhelen is the obviously better choice between the two, no question, but falls into a lot of the same pitfalls that Harrowmont does (namely that Bhelen owes his victory entirely to the Warden, never mind how his method of accruing support is remarkably prone to backfiring in a realistic scenario when one examines Orzammar's structure). Spoilers below Also Bioware has been incredibly inconsistent with Bhelen's actions. In DAII they say he disbanded the Assembly. In Inquisition he still hasn't disbanded the Assembly, per banter from Dwarves in Halamshiral. This in conjunction with how they took Harrowmont's ending slides with Golems -- which had him stop Branka from taking Dwarves for the Anvil, and she responded to this by kidnapping -- and Bhelen's which had him press Branka for more Golems only to have her shut down and stop where he launched a siege against her.... to reversing them entirely. That is to say, Harrowmont is now the one who's pressing Branka, while Bhelen is the one stopping her from taking more lives. They make Bhelen seem a Saint all for the sake of kissing his ass and Harrowmont seem brain-dead. Bhelen is the better choice between the two -- though the A vs. B dichotomy of the narrative is remarkably dull -- but not by much, because when you look at Bhelen through a more nuanced perspective rather then accept Bioware's spoonfeeding of it because they can never keep things straight, you find that his competence is that he can only marginally improve on the status quo. All of this, of course, being shit I talk about on my tumblr account.

Draupnir Foamybeard Except Varric says it in 9:34 Dragon by way of his Signet Ring quest, saying his contact in Orzammar told him it's already been done. But Inquisition's comments happen in 9:41 Dragon on how it's still around, while also telling us that the Houses still have their personal forces that they're using for their own agendas. That is precisely the problem that was going on in Aeducan's time. part of what sold Bhelen as being good at all was the fact that he was willing to disband the Assembly and unify the army under one banner. That he was willing to do what Eithnar Bemot did during the 4th Blight, which was declare that in times of war the entire Warrior caste answered to the king. And to be perfectly frank, the Dwarves are in an Eternal War -- such that Kardol will tell surfacers that "their nightmare is his everyday" and even Dwarven codexes refer to it as their war that they struggle against. So it becomes hard to say that he hasn't done it yet when it's said it's already been done just a few years after he's been crowned, and then hasn't been done in Inquisition (and it's not just Halamshiral. I believe a few War Table missions mention the Assembly as still being around). But I never saw either Harrowmont or Bhelen as being capable of bringing the change Orzammar needs. Bhelen is actually remarkably obvious and Harrowmont's too weak.

My Dwarf Noble supported Bhelen because if you support Harrowmont, that's the end of the Aeducan dynasty. I'm pretty sure Harrowmont ends up with failing health anyway, so he's not king for long...

Anthony Murano except Bhelen kills your brother and frames you in that origin, then executes harrowmont the second he gets crowned, any other origin it's fine, but not for Dwarf noble

You would let a whole race fall into ruin just for some petty revenge?

Also they mention "two Dalish elves" who died from a strange mirror aka Tamlen and would-be warden

To be fair all player characters exist even if you don’t play as them; they are just implied dead or imprisoned

yeah but I always play as a HN not a DC, DN, EC, ED or M (though I just play their stories to get the cheivo) but if I played as a DC then I would support Bhelen because Rica will....disown you if you don't.

that and Harrowmont believes that you should not be born

Me too! Especially when Bhelin referred to me as "little sister."

Lol that's like the woman on skyrim, right?

This comment punched me in the face a year after its writing and I think I’ll be able to recognize this VA forever now

+Assassin Cactus Indeed, that is a downside to frostbite.

John Doe well I don't think it's just frost bite I felt that the witcher 3 had the same problem

+Assassin Cactus Origins had the best artwork, in my opinion.

Da:O will always be legendary

Grey Warden yeah but I hope the next one is scaled down a bit the whole leading an entire organization was a bit extreme I miss the whole thing of you just being a rag tag group of people

He had no honor, he gained no mercy. Evil comes from people who "had to" survive. They choosen to lower themself to lenghten their worthless lives just like Lesky did. If you ever watched SG, a surviving Asgard says to ensure your species survival any means possible. Because the next generation would look down on you, but there would be a next generation to look down on you. I understand that we didn't lived what Lesky had to go through. But Lesky never did anything to change that. The only thing he ever did in his life, was to lick deep into the asshole he seen to have the biggest voice. Death for his miserable existence was the greatest gift you could ever give to him.

He had the chance to say "I fucked up, but let's turn the tables" the moment the Warden walked it he could've sided with her but he had to be a spineless rat

+MamboJambo Petty idealism. If you are casteless social mobility in Orzammar is impossible, you and your sister being rare exceptions. You are either a beggar or a criminal, saying generic things like "evil comes from..." and "he never attempted to change..." only shows how far that idea is from being anywhere applicable in reality. All casteless live perpetually miserable lives; you'd be suggesting killing them would be the right thing to do, it obviously isn't. Leske is the warden's friend and there should be an option to spare him

@@almamater489 this was a hard one for me. While I was formerly pissed he betrayed me, there was a side that understood. Leske (I'm certain) knew no other life than following the carta, he must have felt more or less abandoned when the warden left (even by no choice of their own). Backstabbing and betraying had been what he knew best, perhaps that's all he knew. When the warden returned, I doubt he barely recognised she/he and from that lack of recognition I think there was a lack of trust. It does not help that the supposed reason the warden was cleaning out the carta was for some high lordling, not for the sake of Dust Town. Besides, how could he have known how capable the warden was and most certainly, the wardens companions? He probably thought his best bet was Jarvia. That's just how I see, anyway. Perhaps if he sided with the warden he could have joined them on their quest to defeat the Blight. Of more than likely, he would have been left in Dust Town to rot until the next carta leader came along and refused his services for fear of turning his cloak. And I doubt he could have been a carta leader since most of dust Town would see him as nothing more than a shill who helped a Lord through the warden. Just imo. I think he would have led a pretty miserable life if he did stick with the warden.

@@fawnieee Put into this perspective, it makes the blow that much less painful. I don't judge or blame him for siding against the Warden, in his eyes, it was his only option, he didn't know of anything else other than the carta. More importantly, he had climbed the ranks against all odds, he didn't want to go back to being nothing more than a street rat, he had a taste of "the good life" and didn't want to give it up. It's a pity that it had to end this way, but ultimately, it was either live miserably in vain hopes that things may become better or die while he was still riding high with gold in his hands. He chose the latter.

Even as noble too i think.Yeah bhaelen betrayed you but you kill him and you family line ends so i always side with him even when im noble dwarf.

Not if you are Male Dwarf Noble. You can father kids before you leave.

I was a dwarf commoner and chose Harrowmont, in the end i became a Paragon and my family became noble

@@sarethuskami5082 sure, but you need someone like Morrigan to accomplish that. I can't imagine many nobles would be becoming to a "half breed".

@@fawnieee Nah you can father a full blooded dwarf in the origin story, then you get an excusive quest called "Of Noble Birth" where he's casteless because you were exiled and you secure him a place in the noble caste by helping a new King of Orzammar take the throne, then you get to name him either after yourself, your father, Duncan, Gorim or Trian

TheEtherealAlchemist He meant as the Warden's brother.

Nicholas Johnson Oh yeah, right. I must've been up WAY too late and had a fried brain when I posted that.

Not at all, Bhelen actually helps the Catsless,which is why i always picks him as king.

VenomCortez Play the Dwarven Noble origin story, and you will see Bhelen for what he truly is... He wants power, nothing more...

uhhoh777 he's a proper dwarf

uhhoh777 What he really is is pretty obvious no matter what origin you play. Still better than Harrowmont.

I know this is pretty outdated, but still. First time I choosen Harrowmont, because of justice/vengeance. It worked out horribly, just as written above. I also went with Caridin, to destroy golem. In my second playthrough, I read a lot of books, codexes, looked around, searched and other things. Harrowmont is a bad guy. He is the typical Dwarf noble. Corrupt, backstabbing, promises a lot of lies, plotting.. basicly a politician. He ruins multiple businesses, craftsmans, and makes promises which later turn out to be lies, which puts others into trouble. After reading this much of him, I could imagine a lot... but killing Trian doesn't seem to benefit him BUT! Trian would've been an absolutely bad king. He was hated even amongs the nobles, because dwarfen politics stand from trying to keep tradition/having honor, while trying to ensure that the dwarfs still somehow survive. Which barely works out. But Trian, didn't even tried that. He was stupid. He would've been a tyrant, and destroyed the dwarfs. So, this is where everything is connected. Bhelen would've taken every power and made changes, which Harrowmoont and others didn't like. (having castless everywhere) However - however... Your character would've been a bad king, for you are the soldier boy, by dwarf traditions. But not as bad as Trian. So (again) if Harrowmont could've blamed Trian's death on Bhelen, than you would've been King and the political puppet of Harrowmont, while he would've had every power connected and run through himself! In the end this was a playdown of dwarf politics between Harrowmont and Bhelen. As in lore, this is the clash of the old&new. If you choose Bhelen he will make things right. He will assemble good expeditions, take measures, introduces new customs, makes new laws, destroys unfair and outdatted dwarvish traditions. He won't just take back thaigs, a lot! But also ensures that they would not be taken back, which a lot of other kings didn't do. Also opens a full legal trade towards the outside world, and takes their technics, culture, which helps the dwarven kingdom a lot. He will deal with the casteless, starts rehabilating them, work, rebuild. Bhelen also recaptured old parts of the deep roads/dwarven kingdom, which he made into dwarven "districts" or sth. So he bascily colonized new dwarven cities, and made safe routes in between. While Harrowmont will get poisoned after a 2-3 years, because he is incompetent as king, and clashes with the casteless. Part of this is from DAO, but also Inquisition. When you go to the deep roads (DAI) you can find a lot of text about what Bhelen did.

Well, no. Behlen is a nasty piece of... nug! First off, just because something is common, does not make it right or acceptable. Behlen's actions, based on our own moral code, are reprehensible. Killing your kin for power? Yeah, it does not matter how mundane that is in Orzammar, it's still unforgivable. "Harrowmont put on a good show of the ‘pity-me-old, honorable and morally right’ man." No, he does not put up a show. He is an honorable man. He is also a traditionalist. He is honest with his intentions and he is no murderer... and he stands with you if you are a Dwarf Noble. "Yet completely fucks over Orzammar." That is a matter of perspective. "On top of that, Bhelen makes a fair point in bringing up the fact that no one truly knows what King Endrin said in his final moments." Behlen is lying. Endrin did realize that Behlen was a rotten egg and he did not want him on the throne. You can know that by reading the paper on Harrowmont's desk in his quarters. Plus if you are a Noble Dwarf, Gorim gives you a letter from your father, that further proves Harrowmont right. "Side with Bhelen and he drags Orzammar into a new, modern era" Right... :) His first action is to send his political enemies on the surface to fight an Archdemon and hopefully die doing so. He is a tyrant, who ends the Assemby soon after he takes the throne. What is wrong about Orzammar can be changed without tyranny. Behlen is never my choice, unless I play an evil character.

Bhelen reminds me of a man in the history book. Ruthless "liberal-minded" politician. Julius Caesar. Their ruthlessness ended the old ways and the new ways literally brought a better age for their people, but both are hated by the aristocrats. Sadly Bhelen is not as strong in military ability as Caesar. And the Dwarven civil war gave the feels of the scramble of western europe on the hands of Charlemagne's children. Killing each other to get their father's throne.

There is nothing more important than vengeance. I dare say that i'm even more extreme than Justice ever was.

He used the golems against the rebellion but then stopped using them after and even banned it

@@twinzzlers god damn bro it’s been six years. It’s weird to read this again

I think you got your wires crossed a bit here. If you keep the Anvil and Bhelen is made king, he supplies her with volunteers until she refuses to make golems only for him. Bhelen then outlaws golems and Branka shuts herself in Caridin's Workshop.

The developers of Dragon age has already stated that multiple origins won’t happen again

There are many things that make origins better

​@@op-qn4kb Agreed 100%

@@OmegaTav But why? It was one of the main appeals of Origins.

@@SteelSpurs simple for the same reason we will never get to see our warden, to much work. I played origin as a elven circle mage who hated how she as a mage was treated. I don’t know how you played your game but you most likely played it very differently than what I did. It worked for origin because it at the time didn’t have to take every action and potential outcomes into account when making the next game. It’s shame, because it was one of many things that made origin better then the sequels. But sadly many of the people who worked on origin no longer work at BioWare, and so it’s left in the hands of other people.

Dwarf commoner was my first playthrough, and when he told me they had taken u shop at my old house I was like " OH HEEEEEEEEELL NO!!!!!" but when I found out what Leske did, I felt genuinely hurt. And before anyone says it, yes I know it isn't real, I just get invested is all.

Bhelen does love Rica

Not just any grey warden, the hero of ferelden too! That's a great deal to live up to I think.

Probably meant as “no place for a ‘concubine’ woman” but they did a bad job getting that across

They also say during the provings that women shouldn't try to be warriors

Despite the hallway entrance into the city where they display the statues of their hero's and the first 8 i saw were women

Maybe they are the exception rather than the rule.

maybe he is an asshole, pretty simple

Harrowmont is a traditionalist that what the nobels represent

It's amazing attention to detail, I also love how it drastically changes how certain races treat you. Humans will belittle you if you're an elf, dwarves will scour at you for being casteless, the Dalish only welcome one of their own, not those raised in a city or circle and of course being a Cousland gets you admiration

harrowmont isnt really any better

Hard to die of old age when you got the blight coursing through your veins.

@@jonathanhamilton6190 Dammit don't ruin this for me

Compared to Harrowmont, yes he is.

@@Palpad100 it depends. If you side with Branka with the anvil Harrowmant gets enough power to maintain his thrown and create peace. The casteless still suffer but there are no assassinations and executions that you'd get with Bhelen

The warrior caste forbids casteless from serving in the military, as they don't want to be associated with such people while they serve

Well, she supports Behlen because of her child, so basically yes, she is in the wrong... but not.

then it doesn't really matter she is in the wrong with or without child XD there is still a right and a wrong

Not really, in both dwarf origins Rica is Bhelen's woman. You can even find a letter from her in Bhelen room as a dwarf noble.

Dwarf commoner I always side with bhelen he makes rica happy and the casteless are people dwarf noble I side with Harrowmont been frame me for a murder I me sentence to die

Unfortunately, no. You'll always have to end up killing Leske. It's a shame there's no option to save him.

@@fawnieee Aw, to bad. Well, he allied himself with Jarvia, so he knew he had to fight his former best friend sooner or later. At least Rica is save

I really liked Leske... too bad for him. Old friends should know not to mess with the Warden. Sadly the only time when Leske can be alive is when you are NOT a Dwarven Commoner.

Should be on all of those platforms.

it's only on Xbox 360, PS3 and PC, don't think it's backwards-compatible yet!

I know the X1 is backwards compatible with digitally downloaded 360 games, but won't take the discs (at least for my friends' console).

The origins all happen, yes, but they change if you don't play them. Upon meeting Leske in the Carta prison as any non Dwarf Commoner origin, he'll say his friend stopped eating and died. That friend is the Dwarf Commoner. The Commoner is the one who gets them out of prison in their origin. So, because the Commoner died, Leske never got out of jail.

But how did Beraht die?

@@nicholasemjohnson47 Killed for match-fixing. The casteless-dwarf-on-a-proving is still a thing.

@Ethan Schultz I agree. My dad was much the same. There is never an excuse to be so disgusting and belligerent to your children. She doesn't even change afterwards.