Begone Linux, GNU/Hurd Is The Real FOSS Kernel

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11 ай бұрын

Nowadays Linux is the king of the FOSS world with BSD sitting off to the side doing it's thing, but there was another kernel that could have taken it's place, GNU/Hurd. The only problem is it arrived a little bit too late, since then it's only continued to fall further and further but it's still being developed.
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Пікірлер: 326

@rugbyx 11 ай бұрын

This is the year of the GNU/Hurd Desktop

@discomallard69 11 ай бұрын

Finally; a person with perspective

@CraigMcGregorNZ 11 ай бұрын

And ipv6.

@Ebalosus 11 ай бұрын

Microkernels > everything else

@geekzombie8795 9 ай бұрын

@@CraigMcGregorNZWasn’t that year a decade ago?

@geekzombie8795 9 ай бұрын

@@Ebalosustrue true

@zeyadkenawi8268 11 ай бұрын

Hurd is being worked on by some students who want to learn about OS design and I think the leader is a professor that's having fun with this project.

@vaisakhkm783 11 ай бұрын

Exactly my thought, and it is perfect for that purpose... students don't have bother with the linux monstrosity...

@skirnir393 11 ай бұрын

@@vaisakhkm783 Andrew Tanenbaum created Minix back then to teach his students about operating systems

@zizlog_sound 11 ай бұрын

@vaisakhkm783: the Linux monstrosity become apparent when you compiled a v2.6 and then some versions later again, as for me v5.15. It’s huuuuuuuuuuuuugggee.

@vladimir_k_bestplayerna1217 11 ай бұрын

@@vaisakhkm783 I took a class in Linux kernel programming in my last semester of university...it is indeed a monstrosity where many sub-topics could've had an entire course of their own.

@iancu_de_hunedoara 8 ай бұрын

It isn't Hurd it is gnu/hurd

@user-vu8fm5vb4n 11 ай бұрын

"There are nothing more permanent than a temporary solution"

@Roxor128 11 ай бұрын

GNU HURD is the Duke Nukem Forever of operating systems.

@Hyperboid 11 ай бұрын

please elaborate

@Roxor128 11 ай бұрын

@@Hyperboid Duke Nukem Forever was infamous for being stuck in Development Hell. Took something like 15 years between its first announcement and when it actually got a release. For perspective, most games take 2-5 years to make, and getting something shorter is either a sign of a rushed job or working low-tech (2D games tend to be easier to make than 3D ones).

@emretasdemir8028 10 ай бұрын

But Duke Nukem Forever did released

@FLMKane 5 ай бұрын

Hurd and Half life 3 confirmed to release simultaneously

@notNajimi 2 ай бұрын

@@emretasdemir8028not the one that was originally announced. it took many forms in development and only the last one got completed and released. earlier builds of DNF have leaked and are completely different games

@Mr.Finkel 11 ай бұрын

man if gnu hurd was the main thing instead of linux everyone would've had to deal with RMS, like A LOT, and like all the time. That would have been interesting to see.

@zizlog_sound 11 ай бұрын

RMS was shaped by what he experienced ever since. All it needs is ppl with some level of interpersonal communication skills and not just like someone who only speaks code.

@notNajimi 2 ай бұрын

and we think that Linus can be an asshole sometimes, we don’t know how good we have it in this timeline

@hamobu 11 ай бұрын

I actually think that it's lucky that Linux beat out Hurd because Torvalds seems to be a better software manager than Stallman.

@kreuner11 11 ай бұрын

Nothing that suggest Stallman himself would be managing the Hurd

@hamobu 11 ай бұрын

@@kreuner11 Not sure how good Stallman is at delegating either.

@Wonderingax 11 ай бұрын

Maybe it was a matter of time

@SmallSpoonBrigade 11 ай бұрын

Considering where Hurd is in development, I'm not really sure that it had any hope of ever beating out GNU/Linux.

@theoriginalneckbeard 5 ай бұрын

Stallman is an ideologist to me in the first place. I don't know how good his extreme views on things would implement into an actual functioning and up to date operating system, because even if you're FOSS you have to make trade offs in the current tech world.

@paladingeorge6098 11 ай бұрын

The fact I can sit here and comment on this video while using a free OS with a game running on the side is truly a wonderous thing.

@casperes0912 11 ай бұрын

Fun fact, XNU (the macOS kernel) is a combination of custom Apple parts, FreeBSD and Mach

@Natalietrans 10 ай бұрын

Funner fact, keeping with Open source licensing, XNU is open source

@xanderplayz3446 23 күн бұрын

I thought it was called Darwin…

@Thanatos2996 22 күн бұрын

@@xanderplayz3446Darwin was the free portion of MacOS (they no longer distribute it), basically the kernel and core userland tools.

@OcteractSG 11 ай бұрын

From what I understand, Torvalds’ original license would be binding, but it would allow a significant amount of debate if he ever needed to litigate it. That would make enforcement a lot more expensive, which was probably prohibitively expensive for Torvalds already even if the license was tightly-worded. Therefore, I think the license was actually a perfect fit because it clearly articulated without hard-to-understand legalese what Torvalds wanted at the time. Basically, it was what it was, and there was/is nothing wrong with that.

@hostgrady 11 ай бұрын

I don't agree with your assessment that we'd be using Hurd simply if Linux came out later. GNU is a lot stricter so there'd be no firmware and thus no support, I think a BSD probably would be what we use

@BrodieRobertson 11 ай бұрын

That's also entirely possible

@el-lo5920 11 ай бұрын

I think same.

@Gooberpatrol66 9 ай бұрын

The thing about Hurd is, it's so modular that extending the kernel is equivalent to installing application software. People would probably write servers for proprietary firmware blobs against the FSF's objections. Due to the Hurd's design, the FSF has no real way to stop them.

@leogama3422 7 ай бұрын

@@Gooberpatrol66 interesting

@svanhoosen 11 ай бұрын

Thank you for mentioning Debian GNU/Hurd. I just downloaded it and now playing with it in KVM, just for the hell of it.

@BrodieRobertson 11 ай бұрын

Have fun

@captainblood9616 3 ай бұрын

It had some truly advanced ideas, it was complex to get working back then but they got it mostly going now.

@EugeniaLoli 11 ай бұрын

Plz do a walk-around of the Debian Hurd on a virtual machine, I don't think there's any on youtube.

@capability-snob 11 ай бұрын

Systems With JT did one for last years release, but there could definitely be more!

@jamescobban857 11 ай бұрын

Microkernel has obvious advantages for teaching OS development because with the bulk of the functionally being in user space individual students can write their parts without the risk of crashing the system. Personally I first encountered this way back in the 1970s on OS/370. Communications code could run either in user mode or supervisor mode, but you got about 10 percent better performance if your code ran in supervisor mode. The core of both CICS and IMS/DC in particular was called directly from the kernel, and I created a product which similarly ran the most performance critical pieces in supervisor mode. This product supported 20,000 simultaneous users on a 4-core 5 Mips mainframe. Processors were REALLY slow back then. But everything was thoroughly tested and debugged in user mode before it was moved to supervisor mode.

@seeibe 11 ай бұрын

If those are still concerns today and there aren't much better tools to simplify and automate kernel development, I'm actually worried for the state of software engineering in general..

@smorrow 11 ай бұрын

Who cares about crashing a virtual machine?

@chlorobyte_projects 11 ай бұрын

@@smorrow Well, with user space you are sure to catch the exception with the stacktrace in the VM itself. Not sure if a kernel crash can be debugged that easily.

@monad_tcp 23 күн бұрын

@@seeibe The problem with monolith kernels and this idea that microkernel is bad because they're slow is that we have to accept sub-par engineering over concerns that really are not related to the software, but to the way hardware runs. Why are we making hardware that doesn't optimize for doing IPC between different addressing virtualized spaces ? And yes, I know the cost about the transition from kernel mode to user mode, but maybe passing messages between the kernel/user space shouldn't need to have the entire stack/cache stripped off before the quantum of time of the scheduler, we have hyper-threading after all, its possible to engineer the hardware such that two threads can synchronize a queue . Sort of the most critical drivers that control virtual memory, everything should really just run in user mode. Operating system developers work really hard for Intel fixing their stupid architecture, not only intel, but most CPU designers. Which is ironically the philosophy of RISC and having a micro-kernel to begin with, we are going to do the hard things on the software, not hardware. Which makes sense when the hardware is expensive, but we're now in 2020, hardware is cheap, and software is the expensive part.

@monad_tcp 23 күн бұрын

To be fair, all of those concerns might as well be just historical and don't apply much to modern computers, its just operating systems keeping monolith because they're all legacy. One could totally create a better micro-kernel operating system that would actually be faster on modern hardware, not only faster, but more secure and stable. Specially because it is easier to understand and change.

@travisSimon365 11 ай бұрын

I once asked RMS about Hurd, and he told me that the main problem was it's Microkernal design. Specifically, he said that debugging errors in a message passing environment was difficult due to a lack of traceability. With a monolith, you get a stack trace to the beginning of time. With a microkernal, you might be able to see the most recent message you were passed. (pls note that I'm not an OS dev and I asked this like 15 years ago, so exact details may not be 100% precise)

@mskiptr 11 ай бұрын

Nowadays you could probably debug that using VMs. Not sure if all the necessary tooling is already there tho

@Waitwhat469 11 ай бұрын

@@mskiptr to be honest I feel like the tracing model for micro services being extended into a microkernels service space makes the most sense to me

@lpprogrammingllc 11 ай бұрын

Being a microkernel is a major limitation, not just on debugging and driver support, but on performance with good security. Remember the takeaway from Spectre and Meltdown was kernels leaking data to userspace is bad, and preventing it is expensive. It is probably at least partially solvable by creating a separate class of usermode programs that _can_ leak data, after all, your filesystem driver is probably _not_ trying to spy on your database program, but especially pre SVM, microkernels have a major performance hurdle on x86 based machines.

@mskiptr 11 ай бұрын

@@lpprogrammingllc That's why safe-language operating systems are the future™

@nowave7 11 ай бұрын

And that kids, is why you really don't want anything to micro, be it kernel or service, or soft! :D

@shanent5793 11 ай бұрын

Microkernels were ahead of their time, the hadware just wasn't there. Todays systems have many cores, virtualization instructions, IOMMUs etc. so some of those μkernel ideas are getting implemented. DPDK shows that processing packets received directly into userspace performs very well. Since type-1 hypervisors are often μk, any hardware with OS exclusive drivers is automatically supported

@nowave7 11 ай бұрын

I'm not sure how much of a problem was in the actual hardware. There is a subtle parallel between a microkernel and microservices, and the added complexity that all that message passing introduces.

@shanent5793 11 ай бұрын

@@nowave7 didn't we get the complexity anyways with SMP systems? Those systems have hardware coherency protocols and atomic instructions that hide some of the operational complexity

@merthyr1831 11 ай бұрын

TLDW: Torvalds is a developer, Stallman is a project manager. Spending nearly a decade trying to pick a kernel and license instead of actually writing any code made a project like Linux inevitable.

@BrodieRobertson 11 ай бұрын

Stallman does have plenty of developers under him

@merthyr1831 11 ай бұрын

@@BrodieRobertson For sure. And not without reason - He's a juggernaut of FOSS advocacy. But in this case, Stallman and Tanenbaum spent more time on the sidelines. A bit like how Linux is taking on PC thanks to Windows being so slow to improve itself and spending more time marketing hardware and locking down access instead

@SXZ-dev Ай бұрын

Torvalds hasn't written a line of code in years. In truth both of them are project managers nowadays, but both of them started as developers

@moetocafe Ай бұрын

you must be very ignorant to call the man (Stallman), who developed the GCC "a project manager"

@capability-snob 11 ай бұрын

Wow, a well-researched video about the HURD! Well done.

@U1TR4F0RCE 11 ай бұрын

I do wonder if gnu/herd was the winner if windows, macos and free bsd might be bigger since fsf’s focus on freedom goes to a level with hardware incompatibility

@zizlog_sound 11 ай бұрын

That hardware incompatibility is only there because hardware manufacturers choose to do so. The world would indeed be different if we worked together instead of against each other. Second best example from might pov is the amount of “Linux Distros”

@ForeverZer0 19 күн бұрын

@@zizlog_sound I agree, but to be fair, nearly all distros are just toy projects where someone wanted to make their own "default" configuration, selection of installed software, and branding. There are realistically only 4-5 relevant distros, which all others stem from, and they all exist without any consequence whatsoever to the ecosystem. Unless you are writing some uber-specific software (i.e. package management), there is no such thing as developing for a specific distro that other distros will not also benefit from.

@tylerdean980 11 ай бұрын

“GNU is the system, and Linux is one of its kernels.” -RMS

@ohio2440 11 ай бұрын

@@zorkman777 do i care about stallman? stallman has his ego on mars

@strongleong3717 11 ай бұрын

@@zorkman777Gentoo?

@TheTransporter007 11 ай бұрын

RMS needs to shut his mouth and worry about his personal hygiene. One shower a week would be a great start.

@ultimatedarkkiller7215 11 ай бұрын

@@TheTransporter007 Maybe start doing some exercise too 🤣

@jlspracher 11 ай бұрын

I'd like to interject for a moment...

@kennystrawnmusic 11 ай бұрын

Surprised no one has thought of porting UML to Hurd as a way of providing a shim for supporting additional hardware yet. After all, a different version of the GPL can definitely run in user mode without violating it at the kernel level - you’d get all the benefits of GPLv3 plus all the hardware support of a user-mode device compatibility layer copied verbatim from Linux. Win-win.

@Fractal_32 11 ай бұрын

@@09f9 64 bit compatibility is nice because then you can use more than 4GB of RAM. (The limit of 32 bit operating systems.)

@Fractal_32 11 ай бұрын

@@09f9 and this is why I think that pushing for 64 bit development is the correct thing to do since microkernels already juggle so much I don’t think juggling memory is also another thing that needs to handle if it could be simpler with more bits to access. (Plus it could offer speed benefits over bank switching.) I am definitely not an expert in anything I just talked about, I’m just speaking with the minimal amount of knowledge I have on computer hardware and software.

@jonathancrowder3424 11 ай бұрын

I want a micro kernel so I can feasibly compile my os in a reasonable time. Learning os dev is hard when everything is a black box, and time constraints cause a pseudo black box for me

@rightwingsafetysquad9872 11 ай бұрын

That makes sense, but as Linus has said a few times, microkernels are awful for performance and memory efficiency.

@babyboomertwerkteam5662 11 ай бұрын

@@rightwingsafetysquad9872 hence why everyone who tried microkernels (Windows NT and Mac OS X were originally microkernels) moved to a hybrid design.

@zizlog_sound 11 ай бұрын

I failed to compile a v5.15 Linux kernel recently at least half a dozen times. And the error output was nothing I could work with. Back in Linux v2.6 times it compiled and worked.

@jonathancrowder3424 11 ай бұрын

@@rightwingsafetysquad9872 hmm. I didn't know about that. Even still I think I'd rather tackle performance issues than hours of compile time and monster sized error logs

@Ornithopter470 2 ай бұрын

@@jonathancrowder3424there comes a point when design constraints become the limiting factor in optimization. Sure, throwing compute at any problem fixes it "eventually", but that's a band aid that relies on compute power scaling faster than complexity bloat. Monoliths are more performant, in part because they don't rely on message passing. The tradeoff is initial complexity and compile times.

11 ай бұрын

I hope they get 64 bit support before they start needing more than 32 bits for timestamps 😅

@esra_erimez 11 ай бұрын

I liked this wonderfully informative video. May the sentiment analysis algorithm bless it with many views.

@U1TR4F0RCE 11 ай бұрын

For the license torvalds wrote up probably doesn’t help its not his first language

@BrodieRobertson 11 ай бұрын

Absolutely plays a factor as well

@SCORP2000 11 ай бұрын

Thanks for an interesting tech history video! More of this please!

@cheebadigga4092 11 ай бұрын

gotta love Brodie's history lessons!

@vicca4671 11 ай бұрын

Based Torvalds wanted even the poorest of persons to have access to Linux.

@brunothedev 11 ай бұрын

microkernel mfs cutting their limbs and putting it back with tape(this way, if the limbs brake, they can simply remove it and the core will still run)

@Omnifarious0 11 ай бұрын

The period of time in which everybody thought it was going to be the free OS everybody used was very brief by my reckoning. I was around for that time. I became aware of the GNU project in 1988 or 1989. I was in my late teens at the time, but taking classes at the U of MN. I was initially not completely sure Linux would succeed because it didn't have a marketing department. And so I tried to use SCO Unix (which was absolutely awful because SCO wanted anybody who did development work for it to pay through the nose, getting the GNU tools up and running on it was a huge pain due to the lack of header files). And when it became available, UnixWare. I gave up and switched to Linux round about the time RH 6.0 came out. It was obvious that Linux was taking off commercially by then. I never even tried to use Hurd.

@andrewlankford9634 11 ай бұрын

The first Linux distro was released before GNU Hurd was, assuming Hurd ever was released.

@felipelopes3171 11 ай бұрын

Well, what can we learn about this story? The importance of the Minimum Viable Product, or MVP! The discussion between monolith and microservices happens for any software, really. And it still goes on today. If one is better than the other, clearly it's not by much. The GNU people, used to an academic environment, could not even start the project without settling the best architecture, licensing, etc., because that's how academic funding works. Torvalds, on the other hand, focused on the most immediate problem. No one could run any of this free software, even for studying. So he released the most basic thing that worked and tried to figure out along the way. Years of experience developing software now tell us that's almost always the right way to go. Well done, Linus.

@tablettablete186 11 ай бұрын

Can't wait for news of exokernels (if they are even used these days) No joke, I really like the idea of exokernels of simply exporting hardware

@xade8381 11 ай бұрын

it will make things harder for devs creating application for that platform, by adding some more stuff to take care of

@mskiptr 11 ай бұрын

That sounds exactly like what I have in mind

@tablettablete186 11 ай бұрын

@@xade8381 Can you elaborate differently? I couldn't understand what you said (maybe rewriting it in a different manner) Maybe you tried to say that this would be just another system to support, thus making devs life harder

@xade8381 11 ай бұрын

@@tablettablete186 just check how exo differs from both mono and micro (for eg. resource management section) u'll get what i said. can't share link here

@tablettablete186 11 ай бұрын

@@xade8381 Yeah, YT didn't notify me... anyways Now I get what you said, but libOSes can be developed by the kernel devs, so applications devs would only need to dynamically link them at startup. Similar to WINE in Linux

@MarcCastellsBallesta 6 ай бұрын

I was born in the year Stallman created GNU! And I like it.

@ducksies 11 ай бұрын

GNU Guix + Hurd is the OS of the future!

@formbi 11 ай бұрын

literally

@vaisakhkm783 11 ай бұрын

@@formbi 🤣

@formbi 11 ай бұрын

@@vaisakhkm783 The independence of kernel daemons allows for some very nice capabilities (some of them would improve Guix which is the most smartly-made distro even more) which Linux can't really have, but sadly the lack of hardware support kinda makes those advantages inaccessible. One can only hope that some talented hackers do join the Hurd team…

@mskiptr 11 ай бұрын

I'm running Guix, but I doubt I'll ever use the Hurd part. Maybe virtualized, on some VPS one day

@Ebalosus 11 ай бұрын

I want to believe…

@grz3chotnik 11 ай бұрын

ACTUALLY what you’re referring to is…..

@thingsiplay 11 ай бұрын

... is Manjaro.

@Lampe2020 9 күн бұрын

Linux was in the right place at the right time. It appeared when the tooling to use it was already made and it had no real, ready-to-use competitors.

@PaulEmsley 11 ай бұрын

I was a fan of GNU in the late 80s and early nineties. I wrote the "This week in the Hurd and Debian GNU/Hurd" for a couple of years. Then I started writing my own software and didn't have time to continue with it sadly. (On the upside, my software became the most highly cited scientific Free Software.)

@cagatay518 11 ай бұрын

name of your software?

@gljames24 11 ай бұрын

Looks like it stalled, man. 🕶

@gimcrack555 11 ай бұрын

Yeah, well, you know, that’s just, like, your opinion, man.

@mskiptr 11 ай бұрын

Now cover GNU Shepherd! (and maybe OpenRC, runit, Upstart, and so on)

@GafftheHorse 11 ай бұрын

I recall reading about the Hurd micro kernal back in 1999 shortly before i switched from Windows 98 to Suse Linux 6.3. I also read up on FreeBSD, but I it looked like Linux with it's better hardware support (which was still atrocious back then) would be most likely to actually work. I recall I still had to learn to optimise the kernel settings and recompile the kernel in order to squeeze better performance out in order to be able to play DVDs without stuttering on Xine.

@DavidMohring 11 ай бұрын

Brodie is absolutely correct when it came to in kernel tree Linux device driver support, however I don't think it was GNU Hurd being released after Linux was that major issue but the performance cost of the Hurd & Minix Micro-Kernels vs Linux & BSDs Mono-Modular-Kernels.

@BrodieRobertson 11 ай бұрын

That was very likely a factor as well

@Kris-od3sj 11 ай бұрын

I love the thumbnail

@zizlog_sound 11 ай бұрын

Great video Brodie. The Linux kernel is a very big mess afaic. Try going through “make menuconfig” and find what you need. Even after several times doing so, I had to go line by line to find what I was looking for. Maybe, someone knows why the config cannot be in alphabetical order and it’s of higher priority than actually going by the alphabet.

@von_nobody 11 ай бұрын

Could Hurd cannibal drivers from Linux? Add some warper API that pretend to be Linux and driver would still think is run inside Linux, similar how Wine allow you to run Windows apps under Linux.

@Gooberpatrol66 9 ай бұрын

They did that for a while, it was called DDE. It took too much maintenance so they abandoned it and are using NetBSD drivers now because the NetBSD kernel is inherently modular.

@Gooberpatrol66 9 ай бұрын

This is more well researched than the majority of things written about GNU Hurd, congrats

@myegane49 11 ай бұрын

GNU/Hurd is necessary for humanity

@redrj 11 ай бұрын

It's surprising to me that Hurd is still kicking

@IzzyIkigai 11 ай бұрын

I mean it is.. but it's hurd.

@travis1240 23 күн бұрын

Yeah have been following GNU/Hurd since the 90s and, well, it's been almost ready for 30 years.

@Beryesa. 11 ай бұрын

Alpine really hurds GNU 😂

@dorianvedel1910 11 ай бұрын

Does Hurd still lack the sound audio stuff lol ?

@jamesflames6987 11 ай бұрын

Everyone talks about how amazing "microkernels" are, but they're not so amazing that anyone actually wants to use them.

@BrodieRobertson 11 ай бұрын

I've heard from so many microkernel ethusiasts that they're better but I find that hard to believe with the current state of computing

@CasperLabuschagne 11 ай бұрын

I have said this before and will repeat it here. In 1991 everything was vapourware except for Linux that was able enough to run and be compiled from the word go. At the time that Windows 95 was released Apache 1.0 was released and the standard Linux distribution could be used to serve sites on the web. Yes everything else caught up with Linux though it took up to a decade and even longer to become stable. Linux was the right product, at the right time and at the right price while the remarkable thing was that opposed to the vapourware, Linux was stable and ran (at that time) on everything in the stable of 386/486 and above .

@RedSaint83 11 ай бұрын

How about this poorly thought through analogy: Linux was a puny but stable catamaran while everyone else was trying to build Titanic.

@CasperLabuschagne 11 ай бұрын

@@RedSaint83 That was exactly it. Once the C compiler worked and BASH became available they had a functional system that was stable and could serve as a platform to deliver services. Though I will point it out again, without Apache 1.0 appearing in 1995, ISP's right across the world would not have adopted Linux and it would have remained an obscure hobby project. That stable catamaran was sufficient as a platform for Amazon, Google and later Facebook to build their empires upon while doing the same on the competing products by Microsoft was impossible back then and to a large extent still is impossible.

@xade8381 11 ай бұрын

I want Redox to succeed

@wolfgangreichl3361 11 ай бұрын

If I understood Stallman correctly he very much insisted on the word play and meant GNU to be pronounced like 'new' (just like the animal by the way).

@mskiptr 11 ай бұрын

4:03 And so did Stallman lol

@Yogesh-kr7bo 11 ай бұрын

there is also arch hurd version

@andrewdunbar828 Ай бұрын

More than six minutes in before I realized "Mock" is "Mach".

@AcidiFy574 11 ай бұрын

Speaking of Hurd you could talk about Redox OS Which uses a RUST Micro-Kernel

@cavvieira 20 күн бұрын

Are you saying we could have BSD's kernel from the beginning?

@timeTegus 11 ай бұрын

very interesting

@coolworx 22 күн бұрын

I just wonder if Brodie would actually be able to talk in handcuffs.

@e8root 11 ай бұрын

I knew Linux and played with it some even in late 90's. I knew BSD and tried to install it because friend at school had unhealthy fascination with FreeBSD. GNU Hurd... imagery of rolling tumbleweed comes to mind ...

@UltraZelda64 26 күн бұрын

I was always interested in the GNU HURD and also microkernels in general. It would be nice to be in a world where it's not all (Linux) or nothing (HURD); where different projects can attract enough interest to all progress forward naturally. Diversity is good everyone. Unfortunately, that's not the kind of world we live in, and as it is going now, I don't expect the HURD to ever really pick up and be usable on a production system. We still have the various BSDs and illumOS at least as alternatives to Linux, so that's good. But it would still be nice to have a true microkernel.

@therealforge 16 күн бұрын

I was not only present for several of the "GNU/Hurd is going to matter next year" waves, I've booted and run Hurd. I remember being very excited, and booting Debian GNU/Hurd, and finding it to be a huge nothingburger, because it did less than the Linux kernel of the time, the free/libre aspects weren't amazing, and when you put Debian into strict libre mode, the amount of working hardware dropped sharply again.

@felohtingz 11 ай бұрын

x64 Amd GNU

@Mzansi74 3 ай бұрын

Stallman is great and we are highly indebted to him. Tannenbaum is a legend and Mach or Minix are great as well. But... They don't play well with others

@vincentfernandez7328 11 ай бұрын

in 1985 169 dollars for a student was a enormous amount of money in a foreign current (for most of them). Huge error by minix that should be free. I had a "copy" of minix but I new it was not legal. I didn't use it.

@stephen8176 11 ай бұрын

I didn't realize Hurd was still around, they've been working on it for 25 years.

@akojic5486 11 ай бұрын

At last good news!

@formbi 11 ай бұрын

Brodie please look up how Mach's name is pronounced (I don't think I can put a link here)

@formbi 11 ай бұрын

kzfaq.info/get/bejne/jNSBlctpmtm9c6s.html

@BrodieRobertson 11 ай бұрын

The fun thing about Australian English is it cobbles together a bunch of pronunciations

@formbi 11 ай бұрын

@@BrodieRobertson Mach isn't an English name anyway

@billfarley9015 11 ай бұрын

Mach = mock

@TankEnMate 11 ай бұрын

@@BrodieRobertson I can't think of a single time I heard someone pronounce Mach as mock in Australia (I've heard "mack" and "mark" but never "mock"); what part of Aus are you from?

@nmjerry 11 ай бұрын

So linux is not a microkernal, but is not monlithic, which of the definition is large and unchanging. Linux is a large kernal, but it does have the sbiloty to change. It is called loading or inserting modules.

@okashiromi5541 11 ай бұрын

Tbh I'm a bit happy that Linux took hurd spot. The gnu devs and FDC have shown they go pass pro FOSS and into anti-proprietary in some cases and you could never make a desktop work without jumping through a ton of hoops and making comprises with that mindset imo

@edelzocker8169 25 күн бұрын

GNU/Hurd is a living corpse... ... we require a resurrection spell.

@bogdahn689 11 ай бұрын

i tried debian hurd hack in 2000 i belive, but almost nothing was working, only std GNU tools worked, not a good memory

@ea_naseer 11 ай бұрын

Wait Minix used to cost money back in the day? Tannenbaum literally has the source code at the back of the book... all of it. Wow first I've heard of it.

@The_Lawnmower_Man 11 ай бұрын

That's par for the course for the (notoriously greedy) textbook publishing industry.

@etopowertwon 11 ай бұрын

I wonder how easier it would be to port microkernel to crablang 🦀🔪. Since core is user processes, you can probably replace them after the boot. Also why the video is detected as Gaming category, Indian Summer game? There is too little of Indian or gaming in it.

@Andrath 11 ай бұрын

I was curious about Hurd again, but it still doesn't support 64 bit.

@smiths121 11 ай бұрын

Hmm, given Debian/LINUX does not support i386 or even i586 something to run on older hardware with 65% of the repo available! Wonder if LibreOffice ported!!!!!

@timothyt.82 26 күн бұрын

GNU/Hurd could be a great fallback/alternative to GNU/Linux, now that I'm just learning about this.

@wernerviehhauser94 11 ай бұрын

You mean HURD finally works? I didn't expect this to happen in my lifetime :-)

@BrodieRobertson 11 ай бұрын

65% of Debian 32 bit so not as much as you'd want

@wernerviehhauser94 11 ай бұрын

@@BrodieRobertson definitely not. Having whitnessed the HURD/Linux/BSD skirmishes since 1994, I decided to go with what runs my stuff, and I stuck with Linux because it "just worked".

@CFWhitman 11 ай бұрын

The reason that HURD is not what ended up being used is a lot more about performance problems of microkernels than it is about when it was "ready." Notice that none of the major operating systems for x86/x86_64 use a real microkernel (they use hybrid kernels because of microkernel performance issues). I highly doubt that HURD would be heavily used if its development were two or three years further along at the time Linux came on the scene.

@FLMKane 5 ай бұрын

Hurd and Half life 3 confirmed to release simultaneously

@liorean 11 ай бұрын

I just hear "mock", not "mach"...

@formbi 11 ай бұрын

GNU Mok

@elimgarak3597 11 ай бұрын

Gen Z finds out accents exist

@BrodieRobertson 11 ай бұрын

Right, I said mach

@formbi 11 ай бұрын

@@elimgarak3597 English-language native speakers find out that words from other languages exist

@formbi 11 ай бұрын

@@BrodieRobertson you didn't

@styleisaweapon 11 ай бұрын

RMS eats his own toe jam .. in very public situations

@Bigoukun 11 ай бұрын

Yes, I did know about GNU/HURD, but no, I wasn't around when everyone was excited about.

@sardonic_irony 11 ай бұрын

The Hurd ideal is what NextStep was doing before Apple bought it and made the MacOS system 10 work as well as it did in the old PowerPC days. Unfortunately, reality set in and going from the old (MacOS/Next) Mach kernel into the modern MacOS kernel had to take place for architectural reasons - kernel space is where it's at for hardware access. Until hardware allows faster access outside of ring 0, that's just pragmatism.

@shanent5793 11 ай бұрын

That's what we have now, with virtualization extensions and IOMMU. I wonder if any current HURD research takes advantage of them?

@formbi 11 ай бұрын

@@shanent5793 there were some attempts, but they really didn't go anywhere

@cheesium238 11 ай бұрын

I don't even have an i386 silicon anymore :(

@vaisakhkm783 11 ай бұрын

my computer that got damaged last year was i386... hopfully i can review it with gnu hurd XD

@hamobu 11 ай бұрын

Has any microkernel get a wide adoption anywhere?

@BrodieRobertson 11 ай бұрын

In the embedded world yes, and certain other devices like the Nintendo Switch. But there are no super popular desktop microkernels, there are projects like Redox but it's fairly niche

@capability-snob 11 ай бұрын

OKL4 is more widely deployed than linux; it runs on the baseband processor of most iOS and Android devices.

@shanent5793 11 ай бұрын

AWS was built on Xen, and Windows Pro editions come with Hyper-V

@billfarley9015 11 ай бұрын

There's Minix. It used to be built into all versions of Intel chips, I think. Don't know if it still is. Somebody was claiming it was the most popular OS in the world (that nobody's ever heard of).

@BrodieRobertson 11 ай бұрын

@@billfarley9015 That's still an embedded use case

@geostokes8573 9 ай бұрын

To be really fair and accurate, if linux hadn't existed we wouldnt be using Hurd, we'd be using BSD. BSD was ready, but was in litigation. A frw years later and it would have been a far far superior choice to untested software hacked together by the internet. Just a thought.

@blu3h4t 11 ай бұрын

you just dont know that kubernetes is a gnu hurd and it couldnt been done before because there was no fitting language for that like golang.

@Fractal_32 11 ай бұрын

I wish HURD was on par with Linux, it’s always nice to have some form of competition even when both are for the benefit of their users. (Plus it would be really cool to have a completely Free Software operating system.)

@shallex5744 11 ай бұрын

there are several Linux-based distros out there which are completely free, and you can theoretically use the Linux-libre kernel in any distro

@Fractal_32 11 ай бұрын

@@shallex5744 I know although more competition is better for all of us, it makes us double down on making our services better for the user/customer.

@FLMKane 5 ай бұрын

*shrugs* Bsd Unix says hi

@teklife 10 ай бұрын

that's really funny, even though i've known about GNU and HURD the kernel for years, since i started using linux full time in 2009, just now did i hear the really funny multiple recursive acronyms, and a herd of gnus, that's really clever and cute and for that reason alone i wish i was living on the timeline when HURD succeeded and not Linux.

@bubbles581 22 күн бұрын

Gosh i waited yereears for hurd thinking it was going to be amazing....

@timothygibney159 6 ай бұрын

Herd is not Unix. It's similar but different and not taught in any university. Linux is a real sysV API and syscall compatible with Unix

@pyntux 11 ай бұрын

I would like to see usable GNU/Hurd as (or more) I would like to see usable Linux OS (Gnu free Linux OS... Yes I know there is some....)

@velho6298 11 ай бұрын

I think stallman hates when the Linux Kernel has to make use of binary blobs

@BrodieRobertson 11 ай бұрын

Yes

@CFWhitman 11 ай бұрын

Yes, but note that technically the Linux kernel doesn't use any binary blobs. It merely (usually) ships with binary blobs to load into peripheral hardware memory to make the hardware function. The binary blobs could be on ROM chips in the hardware instead. The reason they're not always on ROM chips within the hardware (some of the time they are) is that it is easier to update firmware on peripheral hardware if it's loaded from the system drive than if you have to flash it to a ROM chip. Richard Stallman tries to use hardware that has open source firmware as well as drivers rather than just using hardware that has its closed source firmware contained on ROM chips (which would also not require binary blobs to be loaded from disk). He goes to great lengths to avoid any closed source code, be it software or firmware. This is very difficult to do with current hardware.