The beauty of these games

That’s the ultimate question both extreme individualism and extreme collectivism are both wrong the truth is somewhere in the middle

@@asher8754 thing is the middle can never be reached since both are equaly opposite of eachother.

the Right philosophy that the world has flaws But has long as you have the right mindset and Ideals and making sure to have the Right ways of helping people you can show people a better path without becoming Blinded or corrupted by your own views and Knowing when to see The right way to help people

She’s the true face of altruism individual happiness is a sin it’s only when all are equally happy/miserable are people true themselves. She was just as wrong as Ryan was

That's a trait of a great villiain, they say things that make sense and you can't help but agree with despite knowing that you must stop them

***** Oh, I wouldn't say I agree with her. Indeed, I would say her collectivist ideology is quite replant. Quite evil. But, she puts it across in such a calm and matter and fact manner, and inter-splices with facts, which lends her twisted views credence.

***** Exactly right! What's interesting is that both Rand and Mill have points to make, but these games show what happens when they are taken far to far.

@@josephward3125 who's mill?

300th like

It's really a shame that none of this wisdom was in Comstock.

Where is that liberator quote from?

@@magamynaga5205 Atlas

@@Bobo011 Comstock is nowhere near Ryan, Fontaine or Lamb. Such a shame.

@@Bobo011 Comstock was a schizo and a joke of an antagonist

Objectivism 1. Collectivism 2.

Right? It's an awesome series.

Sith Lord Revan it would've been

If It had melded the two it would have been nothing more than a ordinary surface city, where artist are sorta free but still constrained by petty morality, Scientists would still be controlled by the state and demanded their discoveries to "contribute" to the "greater good". Aka the dream of ryan become nothing.

@@wugabriel3465 artists are constrained by the "Censor"

a melded city is not a nash equilibrium, it would have decayed into ryan city.

But they wouldn't have melded, two extremes will never create a sense of normality. You can't call one man living in luxury and another man starving to death an ideal society.

They're proof that both sides of the political spectrum can be deadly if pushed to their extreme.

She does not have the respect of Ryan and Comstock who built the impossible. Lamb is just a pretender lording over the ruins and exploiting the few survivors for her experiments. She had some interesting ideas though.

titanicww2345 Her most distinguishing factor is being an extreme left winger, she represents essentially Marxism.

@@VGamingJunkieVT more like socialism

Socialism IS Marxism, Marxism follows the ideals of Karl Marx, which lead to Communism and Socialism.

Yes, she did. Just as Ryan burned down his Forest to keep the religious at Bay. She burned down what was left of Rapture.

Correct. The moral story here is whatever your ideology you will just end up the way all the other before you did when they took control, a tyrant.

ryan wasn't a tyrant he got mad because parasites had destroyed his city

@@RealBradMiller those religious scumbags tried to steal his forest lol

sofia was like that always while rayan got mad

I don’t think so, I think Lamb was ultimately just an immensely disturbed woman that had entirely lost faith in humanity. She thought she could save the world in her own twisted way, I don’t think she was doing it for personal glory.

because it can't. the individual subverts the collective, because the collective is a nash equilibrium only as long as it is unified. otherwise it instantly decays into ryan's city. an example? the ussr after the 1960's reforms, or china after 1970's deng reforms. there can be no compromise. the middle decays into the right.

@@sd-xx8ep I feel like humans are doomed to create societies with varying ideologies only for some people not to benefit in it and those few turn into many, then they over throw said society to create a new one. This process is jsut gonna repeat over and over again. We are gonna bounce from capitalism to communism to the middle then back to the left back to the right over and over again

Wise Abay Never heard that before “I am Bio-shocked” Nice quote.

I am bioshooketh! Sky-hook me in the face and call me your father!

That "I am bio-shocked" line really got me

Fontaine is worth than the both

Andrew Ryan = Capitalism Frank Fontane = Corporatism Zachary Comstock = Theocracy Daisy Fitzroy = Anarcho-Socialism Sofia Lamb = Utopia

John Smith Fontaine was shodan

The best part is when they thought she was real and they loved her in the end

@@kobastalin5251 capitalism >socialism

@@greenkidd529 Amen, brother

I got sacred, too. And now I no longer exist in my mortal form.

@@raptornugget5385 You're fucking delusional. There's more to that than "capitalizm killd thm!!!1" you fucking piece of shit

I came for the morphology of butterflies.....

What’s wrong with the gameplay? I thought it was better than the first game

@@MisterJohnDoe it is much better

I think in any case ideology is a mistake. Every societal issue is an issue between people and people are extremely multifaceted. We exist of countless possibilities and everyone has a different distribution of potential over all those possibilities. Then we also differ between personalities. Only people who place themselves on the pedestal of admiration, who fall in love with themselves, their ideas or their fabrication can conceive of an idea that is totalitarian. That is dogmatic. And that needs to be abided by, and controlled through penalty. Thinking that you can reduce nuance to bring about utopia. Is to fail to see the scope of your ignorance, to believe in your own grandiosity, and to judge that sufficient to deny humanity to evolve naturally: through negotiation and learning. Any story of dogma gone bad is interesting. It's the introspection of evil within the individual.

Sophia Lamb isn't a socialist either. I met actual socialists online, and they don't act the same way Lamb does at all. Socialists don't want to take away individuals. Altruism isn't about stripping individuality. It's about taking responsibility for people who are suffering.

@SwordSorcery2020 So you're basically saying that we need to live in a world where there's zero sociatal structure except for people who "came out on top", which, ironically, is also social darwinistic by nature. All you're doing is fighting one extreme, with another extreme.

@@mikeykitty1235 Not every socialist behaves like Sophia, I know. I am a self proclaimed Democratic Socialist. But in the situation detailed, killing Delta and kidnapping Eleanor wasn't taking responsibility for the suffering of others, nor altrurism. It was her desire to control the fate of her daughter, and others. Give charge of Eleanor to the woman who lost her daughter, convert a priest to teach her way of thinking. It's opposite to Ryan's worldview, but both are scewed one way or 'tother.

@@seattlegirl14 Yes, but every single comment here keeps talking about how Sophia's worldview describes communism and altruism, which feels like nothing but a bunch of stupid strawmans and centrist "Both sides are bad" garbage. Altruism is not about stripping people of their individuality. It's about caring about individuals. It feels like these people don't know a single thing about politics and only listened to far-right reactionaries on youtube.

To me The Point of Bioshock is meant to remind you that as Long as you have the right mindset and ideals than your doing something for the right reason without becoming misguided or blinded but if Someone has the wrong kind of mindset and ideals than they will crash and burn without realizing their flaws or seeing if their actions are helping others or making theme fed up or annoyed with the way things are being handled

That's not how altruism works. Altruism is the ability to help people, and that if you can help others, it is your responsibility to do so. That's not stripping away individuality, it's caring for your fellow humans.

@@mikeykitty1235 but u cant force an individual to be altruistic

@@mikeykitty1235 Altruism is more based on the belief that humans must sacrifice themselves for others before themselves

Spencer Hyde Why loath infinite?

A lot of games are better than Infinite. What a mess that game was.

Any Bioshock is better than infinite.

Bioshock 1>Infinite >2

DG THE YT KING Are you on drugs?

I think you can never truly make the collective happy, it always craves, always wants something, which is also true for an individual, however when everyone tries to make everyone happy, then no one is.

Then you are a peasant

@@albinhansson5817 "A man chooses, a slave obeys".

That's sort of the problem. For some reason everyone wants to side with a villanous extreme they align with than think for themselves. So enamored with the devil they know that they can't escape it's grasps. Ryan is evil, Lamb is evil. Neither believe they are: they may blame the individual or the group but never their own flawed ideologies. It's still shocking to me that a little charisma is all it takes to turn hypocrite murderers into saints in the eyes of their audiences.

@@Bobo011 She never thought that collective can be happy while there is an "individual". Therefore, a genetic rewriting which would lead to the eradication of self - only collective remains ...something like a hivemind

"The very idea that humanity can be molded into an idea shape"

yeah, try telling shodan that

Hi, I do have the speech with no background music. Give me your email and I can send it to you any time, just give me some credit for the time it took me to download and organize the speech ;) I'll love to see what you can do with it! Greetings!

Chasedpatrick@gmail.com Will totes give you credit and let you know when I upload whatever I'm thinking of doing 😊

Chase Patrick I sent you the email as requested. :)

***** Hi, I sent you the email as requested. I hope to see something nice with it soon, and maybe receive some credit :) Keep it up, spread the word, and SEEK UTOPIA!

AIRLINE500 Hey! could you sent me the speech without music, please? My email: ivann92@hotmail.com or vbk.vanbastik@gmail.com Thanks! I give you credits when the release go to sale :D

Ryan also failed to understand that individuality above all is ultimately self-destructive. His name is an anagram of Ayn Rand: a sci-fi writer who was driven by ambition and unyielding selfishness. She exploited, abused and manipulated everyone around her for her own personal gain. She was devoid of love, like so many fanatical Capitalists. Oh that's right. People often say that Communism (Stalinism especially) is a religion, and they're right. What these same people fail to comprehend, however, is that ANY moral, ethical or lifestyle philosophy when pursued vigorously enough can become a religion. Capitalism is no exception. It has it's saints just like any other: Rockerfeller, Disney...the man currently residing in the top job...all of whom keep deep shades of Ayn Rand and ultimately Andrew Ryan. They do nothing that is not self-serving and stop at nothing to get what they want. Lamb was a villain, no question. She used her own child for vivisection, violating even the most basic of Hippocratic principals. However, much like Fontaine, her actions still made some people happy and gave them the will to continue albeit only from an outward perspective. The truth of the matter is that there are no heroes in Rapture. Ryan, Fontaine, Lamb, Sinclair, Porter, even Tannenbaum: they all do what they do because they have a personal stake in the result. The only characters who do not are the Big Daddies. They, if anyone, are the only true heroes of Rapture.

she sounds like Big Brother

@@MasamuneShinto actually as hard a pill it is to swallow, Ayn Rand was correct it all goes full circle it all adds up & it all makes up for itself self interest is not selfishness she didn't manipulate anyone, there can be no manipulation if everything done is completely voluntary she was not devoid of love, she was full of it love is selfish, one must acknowledge this & understand that there's nothing wrong with that it's lack of love that is selfless in order to say "i love you" you must first learn how to say "I" capitalism simply boils down to mutual growth through cooperation

@@MasamuneShinto tell me would you feel loved if your loved one said "i have no personal interest in having this relationship with you you need me to marry you & as such, i'm doing this for you & for your self interest, i personally have no stake nor interest, i'm not doing this for myself, only for you alone, i give myself 100% to you" would you like that? i would personally not want to have someone without a solid sense of self value, self worth & self apreciation it shows that i'm loving someone solid & genuine love is not something you can just give on a whim, it becomes worthless & worse it fails to become love if you love something indiscriminantly regardless of it's value or lack there of, then it's a lie your "love" is cheap & disposable if you say "i love everyone equally" is that precious? so you love me just about as much as you love your worst enemy? or a complete stranger? you love your loved one in the exact same ammount? nothing in abundance is precious love is precious only if it has value

Ryan respected individual goals and agendas to an extreme. Sofia Lamb demanded a hive mind. I think Lamb's philosophy boils down to an enormous God complex. I think she wanted to believe she knew all the answers to correct everything that destroyed Rapture

Hmmm... constants and variables.... 👍👍🌊🐚☁️🎈

Well said, and I agree.

blackraven0513 Thank you!

She's my favorite bioshock villain. I'm glad she survived in my play-through.

ningengirai I can't find a way to agree with Ryan, but Lamb was on the right track. An individual is inspired to achieve their best by understanding what is best for a human being. Ryan thought that money, reputation and power were goods, when in reality they were really indifferent or just means to an end. The true end of the human spirit is not outside, but within. Lamb understood the darkness of the inner tyrant, but her conclusions were her downfall. If she had read Buddha perhaps, she would had understood that the ego is not defeated by blindly becoming a mindless tool for society, but a true human being filled with peace and compassion toward all beings.

Emphasis on "IF". Who know? She was in Hiroshima. She probably became familiar with Japanese culture, Shintoism, and maybe some Buddhism here and there. Perhaps detaching passions helped fuel her philosophy.

In what way?

Exactly what a parasite would ask for...

What’s this?

It's really a paradox, how can anyone be happy if everyone is trying to make everyone else happy, it's and endless spiral of misery, only those who rise from it and take happiness for themselves, are they truly happy.

@@Bobo011 making someone else happy is incredibly joyful

@@edgarduartegutierrez9860 When you do it as your own desire, Altruism on the other hand demands that everyone became like a saint, who always helped others without ever thinking for your own happiness, which sounds nice until you realize the horrible implication of it when it's imposed by others. Basically people who demand from others to be altruistic, usually have bad intentions and use it for their own benefit.

@Callum Booth 1. I never mentioned either points you said 2. In both cases you have to only think about the interests of either the group you're apart of or the struggles of the lower classes, which again, sounds nice and fair, but when people are forced to remove their individual desires, it not only makes them miserable, but also makes them hate the people they're supposedly helping, basically it's self-conscious altruism, people tend to preach about their good deeds, rather then actually do them. 3.Selfishness is selfishness, people who only think about their pleasure with disregard to others are bad, there's nothing special about it. All and all, helping people isn't bad, as long as you do on your own volition as a pure desire of the heart.

Well said

Tin man

What?

No man is an island.

@@fleetstreet11 But hell is other people

Both are pretty bad...

This isn't communism lmao.

@@natecorsn9097 both in extreme are... well... very bad one has been doccumented to bring horror the other one... has never been attempted in it's purest form so i suppose it's not doccumented only speculated

@@voltex12345 "real communism hasn't been tried, bro. Don't bring up all the times it has been tried and failed, they're not reeeeeaaaaaaalllllll communism!" - Your dumb fucking ass

@Pack -A- Punch By that definition, it can never be achieved without fully reverting to monke. And as much as I do think we should have never left the caves, you do have to realize that this is never going to fucking happen and you're a delusional tard if you believe in communism, fuck you

Try checking the wiki maybe?