Black Athena Revisited | What It Gets Wrong

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Study of Antiquity and the Middle Ages

Study of Antiquity and the Middle Ages

Күн бұрын

In this episode I host none other than Dr. Mary Lefkowitz an author that I have read since my early teens and we delve into two controversial works that she published titled Not Out of Africa: How ""Afrocentrism"" Became An Excuse To Teach Myth As History and Black Athena Revisited.
Not Out of Africa has sparked widespread debate over the teaching of revisionist history in schools and colleges. Was Socrates black? Did Aristotle steal his ideas from the library in Alexandria? Do we owe the underlying tenets of our democratic civilization to the Africans?
Mary Lefkowitz explains why politically motivated histories of the ancient world are being written and shows how Afrocentrist and naturally Eurocentrist claims blatantly contradict the historical evidence.
Not Out of Africa is an important work and viewpoint (though controversial) that protects and argues for the necessity of historical truths and standards in cultural education.
In this video Dr. Lefkowitz revisits her work that was written to confront the claims made by Martin Bernal in Black Athena: The Afroasiatic Roots of Classical Civilization. In that work, Bernal proposed a radical reinterpretation of the roots of classical civilization, contending that ancient Greek culture derived from Egypt and Phoenicia and that European scholars have been biased against the notion of Egyptian and Phoenician influence on Western civilization. The contributors to this volume argue that Bernal's claims are exaggerated and in many cases unjustified.
Topics covered include race and physical anthropology; the question of an Egyptian invasion of Greece; the origins of Greek language, philosophy, and science; and racism and anti-Semitism in classical scholarship.
But enough from me, what are your thoughts?
Support Dr. Lefkowitz and her work below!
Not Out of Africa Book: www.amazon.com/Not-Out-Africa...
Black Athena Revisited: www.amazon.com/Black-Athena-R...
Faculty Page: www.wellesley.edu/classical/f...

Пікірлер: 919
@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449
@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449 3 жыл бұрын
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@solomontruthlover5308
@solomontruthlover5308 3 жыл бұрын
Great podcast, thanks
@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449
@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449 3 жыл бұрын
@@solomontruthlover5308 most welcome!
@solomontruthlover5308
@solomontruthlover5308 3 жыл бұрын
@@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449 sure! I thought you should get Dr Benedict beckeld on your podcast, i discovered him a while ago and I think he's brilliant, and one you might like talking to
@garytucker8696
@garytucker8696 3 жыл бұрын
island of Aeolia i
@garytucker8696
@garytucker8696 3 жыл бұрын
Merchant families.
@harwn999
@harwn999 Жыл бұрын
She called Malcolm x anti Semitic . She’s clearly anti African
@EricAlbin
@EricAlbin 3 жыл бұрын
last time i was this early, Athena was Greek
@gianluigitorresi224
@gianluigitorresi224 3 жыл бұрын
@Philippe James latin mediterranean are not white it’s all about iconology. A eay to grab and validate themselves. Athena is a mitological creatures so everyone can imagine the way they want. Usually like themselves.
@EricAlbin
@EricAlbin 3 жыл бұрын
People getting hung up on the racial attributes of a mythological figure. Oy. The Greeks were more concerned with language as opposed to racial politics; that's a modern hang up.
@Hakor0
@Hakor0 3 жыл бұрын
That'll teach em maybe a couple of smacks in the head or not such a simple statement can be said about any race they're NOT white So.......
@joek600
@joek600 3 жыл бұрын
@Chuck Raylor And what happened to the ''original Greeks'' after? Turned their civilization to -11 and decided to live in mud huts until the early 20th century?
@joek600
@joek600 3 жыл бұрын
@@gianluigitorresi224 It depends from who defines ''white''. If we are talking about 19th century north european super racist pseudo-scientists or normal people.
@Donnell91
@Donnell91 3 жыл бұрын
This was hard to listen to but respect to the elder for being willing to give her viewpoint even if I didn't understand her theory.
@electricearth1101
@electricearth1101 9 ай бұрын
too many big words?
@gregoryallen0001
@gregoryallen0001 7 ай бұрын
@@electricearth1101nah it makes no sense
@harwn999
@harwn999 Жыл бұрын
Aristotle and herodotus clearly disagree with her and they’re apart of history and actually lived in Greece. Smh… and for her to say Martin Bernal used “flimsy linguistics ” yet not demonstrate how it was flimsy as she’s not a linguist herself. Make it make sense
@uriellevelupriley684
@uriellevelupriley684 6 ай бұрын
I remember Dr. John Henrik Clarke debated her and blew her theories away.
@lorenzoclement2013
@lorenzoclement2013 6 ай бұрын
Exactly
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 2 ай бұрын
He didn't. You live in illussion. Clarke was guy who claimed Cleopatra was Black and thta's says exactly how much (un)educated he was.
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 2 ай бұрын
@@lorenzoclement2013 Only in afrocentrists mind.
@bikebuilding.foryah8217
@bikebuilding.foryah8217 3 жыл бұрын
I'm thinking about writing a book. I'm gonna title it "Not Out of Khazaria."
@pharaohoffashion
@pharaohoffashion 3 жыл бұрын
Best comment so far, hands down!!! 👍🏽
@georgetaylor5970
@georgetaylor5970 3 жыл бұрын
You won't find a publisher.....that's way too much problem you would create in 🇵🇸
@youngmorpheuscage
@youngmorpheuscage 3 жыл бұрын
🤣
@afrobane12
@afrobane12 2 жыл бұрын
Sighhhhh, .. . here, kzfaq.info/get/bejne/j7eamMZotdXMl6M.html how about some TRUE BLACK African super-civilization and culture
@PTAHcacique
@PTAHcacique 2 жыл бұрын
💯💯💯💯💯💯💯💯🔥
@jmiquelmb
@jmiquelmb 3 жыл бұрын
That reminds me of how a very popular icon of the Virgin Mary from my country (Spain) was black. There's been plenty of theories why, and recently one of the strongest claims is that it wasn't originally black and it had been degrading with time. It's always funny how political agendas (from all sides) defy common sense.
@End-Result
@End-Result 3 жыл бұрын
Did you type that through an android or something
@jmiquelmb
@jmiquelmb 3 жыл бұрын
@@End-Result That's a pretty random question tbh
@joek600
@joek600 3 жыл бұрын
The exact same thing happens with many byzantine icons, the colors are oxidizing and turning dark.
@joek600
@joek600 3 жыл бұрын
@@bikebuilding.foryah8217 Yes and no. It depends from the pigment used. Byzantine icons are painted with traditional egg tempera. Egg yoke and vinegar mixed with grounded natural pigments. Also even oil paintings are going darker and most of the times the culprit is the varnish.
@anthonymcfarlane1478
@anthonymcfarlane1478 3 жыл бұрын
Common sense is when Jesus had to flee to Egypt to blend in which means he had dark skin you guys need to open your eyes and dig deeper
@KandaEzana
@KandaEzana 3 ай бұрын
Lefkowitz has always done her best to keep that 18th century rhetoric alive
@boodini6711
@boodini6711 3 жыл бұрын
I watched the debate between Dr John Henrik Clarke and Mrs Mary Lefkowitz, She wrote the Book NOT OUT OF AFRICA but never visited Egypt
@PsyrosGR
@PsyrosGR 3 жыл бұрын
So what? Dr John Henrik Clarke never visited Greece
@boodini6711
@boodini6711 3 жыл бұрын
@@PsyrosGR Are you sure he never went to Greece
@PsyrosGR
@PsyrosGR 3 жыл бұрын
@@boodini6711 Yes i am sure. He neither visited Egypt as far as i know. Does it matter? What's important is that he debates Ancient Greek civilization origins without even knowing ancient greek or egyptian.
@boodini6711
@boodini6711 3 жыл бұрын
@@PsyrosGRIf you go on KZfaq there are plenty of clips of John Henrik Clarke in Egypt. IF you Study The Greek alphabet it obviously originated from the hieroglyphics if you study The Greek Gods they have an much older Egyptian counterpart Study where their founding fathers like Pythagoras went to go and study He went to Egypt etc..
@PsyrosGR
@PsyrosGR 3 жыл бұрын
@@boodini6711 "founding fathers "? You are obviously from the US. Many say OUR "founding father" is Homer. Socrates is more accurate imo. None of them traveled much. Pythagoras is kind of a maverick in the hellenic world. He believed in reincarnation ffs. Greek gods (pantheon) is a mix of indoeuropean (Sky Father) and Aegean (Potnia: Mother Earth) origin . Egyptian religion has different origins. There are direct counterparts to greek gods from Indian to Scandinavian mythology. Also we borrowed a lot from Anatolia and the Levant. Having said that, greeks always respected foreign gods and tried to find their counterpart in greek pantheon. It is called syncretism. The alphabet i use every day (greek) originated from the Phoenician abjad. We created the vowels thus the first true alphabet. Hieroglyphics is a completely different form of writing. I saw plenty of clips of John Henrik Clarke on Egypt, none IN Egypt. His Black Nationalism is not welcomed there. I saw a video of him discussing the African origin of Christianity and the Original Hebrews. Pseudo scholar John Clark. No earned college degrees. There is even debate about whether he graduated from high school.
@Fundaykidzz
@Fundaykidzz 4 ай бұрын
What’s sad is Martin Bernal got it all perfectly right in his book /research black Athena … some Cant handle it at at all … so she tries to set it straight ?!? Why cause she’s of a certain religion and is a scholared white woman .?!? It’s exactly Martins point
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 2 ай бұрын
Martin was joke. He innvented past that never was.
@juslostone
@juslostone 23 күн бұрын
They can't handle it at all
@user-ep2yj6pd8h
@user-ep2yj6pd8h 18 күн бұрын
Black Athena is not velid. It's not a academic book.
@mobdicklizardman6080
@mobdicklizardman6080 4 күн бұрын
​@@user-ep2yj6pd8hacademic by who? By the Europeans? Nonsense 😂
@Drutzie
@Drutzie 2 жыл бұрын
How could Herodotus be the Father of History if other civilizations like Egypt had been writing on the walls of their temples and on papyrus their historical facts from before the start of Greek civilization? To assign Herodotus this title is very Eurocentric.
@galanis38
@galanis38 Жыл бұрын
It's because he was one of the first if not the first scholar of history we know of. It's not Eurocentric.
@RoninDave
@RoninDave Жыл бұрын
FYI they didn't do it in the video. He's had that title for centuries and the point is he wrote about history as it happened before him whereas the records on temple walls were contemporary reports.
@Drutzie
@Drutzie Жыл бұрын
@@RoninDave You are not making sense. Europeans want to present themselves as the originators of everything; this not true and its illogical.
@Drutzie
@Drutzie Жыл бұрын
@@galanis38 He is the man Europeans chose to name the father of history, it's not true and the ones to put these ideas forward know it's not true. It's called white supremacy propaganda.
@pete2814
@pete2814 7 ай бұрын
AMEN!
@davidmontoute2074
@davidmontoute2074 3 жыл бұрын
She makes a good point about the inability to "steal" philosophy. The basic rule is the free flow of ideas and interdependence of cultures. But I think one of the things that both "Stolen Legacy" & "Black Athena" were really taking aim at was the airbrushing of the Egyptian contribution to the Western philosophical tradition.
@mrnancy1114
@mrnancy1114 3 жыл бұрын
Yes I think so too , I mentioned the obvious Egyptian influence in early Greek art called Kouros style classicalwisdom.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Egypt-Greek-Comparison-.jpg Example ^^ Now this is not like modern day, if some Greek learned this from an Egyptian, he had to go through the thought process, ie philosophy of why they did it this way, perhaps even going through certain rituals, because they rarely do this type of art for art sake or decorative purpose. It's not like jewelry, The Greeks may have well dropped the ritual part later on and even move beyond the master , but the starting process was there. It's like African art influence on Picasso and cubism.
@davidmontoute2074
@davidmontoute2074 3 жыл бұрын
@@mrnancy1114 , thanks. Those Kouros statues! So evocative... What's interesting is that there's currently something of a revival in interest around the Egypt-to-Greece philosophical transmission. It bases itself on scholars such as Peter Kingsley, Algis Uždavinys or Karl W. Luckert. One of the common denominators seems to be Neoplatonism, which is seen by these sources as maybe the most important bridge between Egyptian and Greek thought. I especially love Uždavinys 's "Philosophy as a Rite of Rebirth". He writes in an inspirational, visionary style similar to Mircea Eliade.
@mrnancy1114
@mrnancy1114 3 жыл бұрын
@@davidmontoute2074 Much thanks I'll look in those works.
@JG-ec9sp
@JG-ec9sp 2 жыл бұрын
m.kzfaq.info/get/bejne/g59prchimpespnU.html
@afrobane12
@afrobane12 2 жыл бұрын
Sighhhhh, .. . here, kzfaq.info/get/bejne/j7eamMZotdXMl6M.html how about some TRUE BLACK African super-civilization and culture
@celestepalm6949
@celestepalm6949 Жыл бұрын
So where does Lefkowitz actually gets to the point and states _exactly_ what Black Athena gets wrong? She spends an understandably but still inordinate amount of time explaining why such & such practice is so time-consuming & imprecise & she belabors the method-ologies required, etc, but in the end, she never really makes her main arguments clear.
@dgetzin
@dgetzin 3 жыл бұрын
16:00 Wait a minute, in the era where Persian Emperors were actively bribing Spartan kings and Athenian politicians, it was HARD for Greeks to travel to Persian occupied Egypt? But Herodotus has a special passport? What kind of evidence at all do we have for this supposed argument for isolation?
@karsten11553
@karsten11553 3 жыл бұрын
I found that strange as well. Also, several greek territories in Asia Minor were litterally part of the persian empire (a rebellion of which kickstarted the hellenic-persian wars).
@BarbaPamino
@BarbaPamino 3 жыл бұрын
I always was told that Plato had visited Egypt. Being part of a City State that had rejected the invasion of Persia some 25 years before Plato was born doesn't mean that people with boats couldn't trade or travel across the Mediterranean. Egyptian culture language and people still existed in Persian Egypt, and Greeks would have traveled there. Just not for combat against Persia. She very boldly claims that Plato wouldn't have been able to get to Egypt. Themistocles was a key figure in defending Greece from Persian invasion, but when we was exiled by Athens he not only moved into Persian territory he was made Governor. The Persians clearly saw the value in prominent Greeks flourishing their skills.
@MabawaVocal
@MabawaVocal 2 жыл бұрын
the irony of all this is that,no one talks of the African man in all egypt history yet the very culture of egypt is from the heart of Africa down south and not even in egypt itself,don't ever believe white historians on Africa,we africans know our own history,greece,arab and arabs are just people who came later,the drawings on the wall show black and lighter skinned people in the very egypt as a nation,even black pharaos are kept in roman catholic
@dgetzin
@dgetzin 2 жыл бұрын
@@MabawaVocal I agree except for the “nobody talks” part. The pharaonic culture was from the south a and not just the south but in what is now the Sahara. Nabta Playa proves this. Robert Beauval talks about the black African origins of Egypt quite a bit. In even mainstream Egyptian history, Dynasty XXV which re-United Egypt was undeniably black and was undeniably talked about. Herodotus tells a charming story about two black birds who came to Greece and leaned to speak. He said he believed these must have been metaphorized female refugees and furthermore must have been Egyptian because “why else would they have been called BLACK birds?” The story is about how the temple of Zeus at Dodona was founded - father of greek history and of all western history - right there giving credit to the roots of greek religion and architecture to black Africans.
@MabawaVocal
@MabawaVocal 2 жыл бұрын
@@dgetzin mmmm,Im yet to see such a documentary,thankyou for sharing
@ZEYSamon
@ZEYSamon 3 жыл бұрын
another awesome episode of yours!!!! thank you very much!!!
@Donny.C.wlWilliams
@Donny.C.wlWilliams 3 жыл бұрын
Leftkowitz I wounder 🤔 if she changed her position after being schooled by The honorable Dr Clarke
@denisenoemyschizotypaldiso3755
@denisenoemyschizotypaldiso3755 3 жыл бұрын
I think she mis-titled her book. She admits that MUCH comes fr/Africa but disputes the amount of influence Africa/Ancient Egypt had on Ancient Greece. "Greece Was Just Greece" might have been a better title. No one claims everything came fr/Africa and no one claims that nothing came fr/Africa. The title isn't appropriate.
@Donny.C.wlWilliams
@Donny.C.wlWilliams 3 жыл бұрын
@@denisenoemyschizotypaldiso3755 🤔
@denisenoemyschizotypaldiso3755
@denisenoemyschizotypaldiso3755 3 жыл бұрын
@@Donny.C.wlWilliams I'm unsure as to what this means. Do you think my point is good?
@JazzEnthusiast
@JazzEnthusiast 2 жыл бұрын
Chronology is most important and is usually avoided in regards to history before the invasion of Greece. The founding kingdom of Kemet is rarely mentioned. I agree that errors in Herodotus' research was largely due to what he was told. However, Theophile Obenga was the linguist, not Cheik Anta Diop. European scholars have a history of turning a blind eye to African historical facts. The literature that was taken from temples to establish the library at Alexandria is were Thales gleaned his philosophical influence. Aristotle, Socrates, Plato and others were students of his teachings. Dr. Lefkowitz mistakenly called out Diop instead of Obenga for being etymologically incorrect. This shows how loose we can be when approaching the story of others. Do I think that what she had to say after that was invalid? No. A glaring example of twisted history is were Pythagoras supposedly developed right angle theory, yet the pyramids were already built when he studied in Kemet. History is twisted because of a superiority complex fostered by western scholars. Honesty and accountability is the best approach to history. Being human is no excuse for not getting it right after 2000+ years.
@JazzEnthusiast
@JazzEnthusiast 2 жыл бұрын
@Stylianiquit with your feeble attempt at gaslighting. You are obviously a mis-educated slave of Champollion's bigoted mindset. Let it go, free yourself.
@JazzEnthusiast
@JazzEnthusiast 2 жыл бұрын
@Styliani the Sudan wasn't established as a separate state until 1956. Before then it was always a part of Kemet. Even when Muhammad Ahmad Ibn declared the region as "Sudan" in 1881 it was still a part of Kemet. The rift between Kemet and Nubia began after the Hyksos invasion ~1800BCE. This caused the founders of Kemet (Who didn't run North) to escape South into Nubia where they originated from. In 1550BCE Ahmose I of Nubia, expulsed the Hyksos from Kemet and established the 18th Dynasty. These are known and well documented facts. Where's your historical proof of what you believe?
@JazzEnthusiast
@JazzEnthusiast 2 жыл бұрын
@Styliani I don't have to try, the evidence speaks for itself.
@JazzEnthusiast
@JazzEnthusiast 2 жыл бұрын
@Styliani cognitive dissonance in effect.
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 2 ай бұрын
@@JazzEnthusiast Stop calling ancient Egypt Kemet, its ridicuous and shows at entrance where you stand - in pesudohistorical afrocentric utopia that never existed.
@JoseAngelFlores
@JoseAngelFlores 3 жыл бұрын
Incredible that someone like Dr. Mary needs to come out and tell people to stop spreading lies.
@sak594
@sak594 3 жыл бұрын
@Chuck Raylor The influence in the region was bidirectional. Egypt meaning in Greeks "down from Aegean ".We had citys in north African for thousands years. Africa is a Greek word and means " the land that came from foam".
@sak594
@sak594 3 жыл бұрын
@Chuck Raylor What's left from this "great "civilization in humanity ?
@jimmypat6572
@jimmypat6572 3 жыл бұрын
​@Chuck Raylor and Sumer was 1500 years before pre-dynastic Egypt. Agriculture was transplanted from Anatolia and Mesopotamia to North Africa during the Neolithic. Also, many scholars believe Sumerian trading colonies in Egypt is how the Egyptians learned writing
@jimmypat6572
@jimmypat6572 3 жыл бұрын
@Easy Bandz Wrong. The Niger-Congo language family (which Bantu is a part of) originated in West Africa around 1000BC-500BC and spread to central and parts of South Africa replacing the native Khoisan languages. This is well after the collapse of our beloved Bronze Age civilizations. Look up Dr. John McWhorter (African-American) who is a brilliant mind in linguistics, phonology and morphology. Sumerian is a language isolate just like Basque and Elamite. There are some prevailing theories but a connection with Niger-Congo is surely not one of them. Historical fiction can be fun but let’s just settle down
@jimmypat6572
@jimmypat6572 3 жыл бұрын
@Easy Bandz black head refers to their black hair. Cmon bro, hence the word ‘head.’ Wanna hear my revisionist theory? they were just being braggadocios about their big wangz
@edadson
@edadson 3 күн бұрын
you had your chance. we’ve all watched the debate between you and Dr. Clark. you were subdued!
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 2 ай бұрын
She is great! 😍😍😍 I read "Not Out of Africa" few months ago - it was very inspiring and helpful to me! ❤‍🔥❤‍🔥❤‍🔥 I used it in my college essay about how blk washing of Cleopatra the Great started, since Mary detailed how this myth she was Black was born and made it way to academia and popular culture. I greatly reccomend both "Not Out of Africa" and "Black Athena Revisited" where she collected critical essays on Bernal's work! 👌🏻
@jsoth2675
@jsoth2675 3 жыл бұрын
Its great that she emphasizes the constant thought and self questioning involved in being a person who cares about the truth.
@afrobane12
@afrobane12 2 жыл бұрын
Sighhhhh, .. . here, kzfaq.info/get/bejne/j7eamMZotdXMl6M.html how about some TRUE BLACK African super-civilization and culture
@r.i.pyoutube6881
@r.i.pyoutube6881 2 жыл бұрын
slavoj be like
@D-E-S_8559
@D-E-S_8559 Жыл бұрын
"[Its great that she emphasizes the constant thought and self questioning involved in being a person who cares about the truth.]" LEFTKOWITZ says she questions and we should question stuff, well, nobody seems to be allowed to question the history of Hebrews or Jews without been branded wrongly as "anti-semetic"....
@Velvet_Intrigue
@Velvet_Intrigue 3 жыл бұрын
I really appreciated and enjoyed this interview. I really appreciated that last question of yours too. It would be great to hear your other guests answer the same question. Methodology is super important to consider.
@PoliticalFuturism
@PoliticalFuturism 3 жыл бұрын
Awesome episode!
@electricearth1101
@electricearth1101 9 ай бұрын
Best episode by far.❤
@joestar6194
@joestar6194 2 жыл бұрын
So, by her logic, Elvis Presley didn't steal Rock N Roll. She's trying to trick you with semantics. And not doing a very good job.
@mrnancy1114
@mrnancy1114 3 жыл бұрын
Try and interview the guy who wrote *Black Spark White Fire* Richard Poe. Btw while I don't know how much Greeks borrowed from Egypt, they were certainly influenced by Egyptian art, especially early part of Greek history, and if so why not in philosophy , they don't have to take everything, keep in mind , Egyptian philosophy found it's way into the Bible the creation myth in parts of Genesis, as made clear by the Shabaka stone and the influence of the 42 negative confession on the Ten Commandments later on.
@mrnancy1114
@mrnancy1114 3 жыл бұрын
@Philippe James Well that's your opinion of something you didn't read you're welcome to it..😃
@Mr_Stav
@Mr_Stav 3 жыл бұрын
You say Greeks borrowed philosophy from Egypt then give an example of a myth borrowing by Israelites
@mrnancy1114
@mrnancy1114 3 жыл бұрын
@@Mr_Stav No I didn't , I gave that as an example, I said they were influenced by Egyptian art, which in itself carried more than just the technical aspect.. It involved philosophy.
@davidmontoute2074
@davidmontoute2074 3 жыл бұрын
Re: "Black Spark...". A really entertaining book. I learnt a lot from that. But i haven't heard anything from Richard Poe in a long time.
@mrnancy1114
@mrnancy1114 3 жыл бұрын
@@davidmontoute2074 About a yr or two ago he did an interview forgot where..🤔
@gruboniell4189
@gruboniell4189 3 жыл бұрын
Love ya work!!
@bobbywright3439
@bobbywright3439 Жыл бұрын
The recent book by Wellesley professor Mary Lefkowitz, “Not Out of Africa,” continues the unfortunate tradition of failing to question the dominant mythologies of race in the intellectual history of the West by diverting attention to marginal issues. Rather than a serious discussion of the ideas circulating in the Afrocentric literature or in the classrooms, Lefkowitz has offered the public a pablum history which ignores the substantial evidence of African influence on Europe.
@Methodius7
@Methodius7 3 жыл бұрын
Great! Finally good guest on this topic. Even though one can understand motivation for this Afrocentric stuff that doesnt mean one should accept false history around it.
@mrnancy1114
@mrnancy1114 3 жыл бұрын
Some things are false others may not be, keep in mind paradigms often shifts on a dime or more likely the next shovel full of dirt, or a recently uncovered text, this is unlike mathematics or engineering. Another thing , Afrocentrism like other disciplines can be infiltrated by eccentrics , in this case Afro-eccentrics. True Afrocentrism look at African historical interaction, from the inside looking out, not from the outside looking in , at least as much as possible. Eg, If one was to speak on contacts with say medieval China, one would speak on Marco Polo and Ibn Battuta , but an Afrocentrist would make certain to mentioned Ibn Sayyid of Mogadishu, or merchant/religious figure like Baba Gor of Kano (Nigeria) who travelled to India. Historical guess work or theories of Romans in pre-Colombian America or Templars, then one should not find cringe worthy a working hypotheses that a king of Mali set sail to the western hemisphere, of which there is contemporary text.
@Methodius7
@Methodius7 3 жыл бұрын
@@mrnancy1114It is not same at all. Someone from mali going to europe.on ship is not that weird much less than romans in america. No point isn't really countering that or arocentrism as you describe it. Every country teaches history from their own point of view. It is not some weird conspiracy. We had pretty much no american history at middle school just few milestones like civil war or such. It is normal. What we are talking about here is crackpot theories claiming ancient greeks were black etc.
@mrnancy1114
@mrnancy1114 3 жыл бұрын
@@Methodius7 And that's why I called those views Afro-eccentrism, plagued by over statements or outright falsehood , however when the average layman researcher hear the term Afrocentrist or Afrocentrism, a sour taste crept into their mouths, however eccentrics are attracted to such disciplines. Black Greeks is not a thing, however pre historic and historic Greeks are said to carry Benin Hbs enough to be noticeable , but part of the problem lay with the ancient Greeks themselves, it was they who claimed a certain African connection via their mythologies and literature. The Suppliant maid by Aeschylus. Memnon's connection to the Trojans through his uncle Priam king of Troy , although a person from the upper Nile while Priam is Anatolian and presumably none black. Then the bit by Herodotus, about the Oracle in Greece founded by two Black doves ie. Egyptian priestesses .
@mrnancy1114
@mrnancy1114 3 жыл бұрын
@Philippe James Well call them heavily *melanated folks, with tropical African adaptive body plans, along with general African culture and language* if you like, but that's simply a mouthful to go around saying all the time..😉
@Methodius7
@Methodius7 3 жыл бұрын
@@mrnancy1114 Look I am aware of that One-drop rule you americans have but thats not how rest of the world sees it. Yeah its possible that most egyptians had some Sub-Saharan blood in them but that dont make them black. From what we know they were most similar to middle eastern populations. But plenty of Nubians etc lived there much more than some englishman thats for sure :)
@theokaraman
@theokaraman 3 жыл бұрын
My main problem about this video is that Dr. Lefkowitz focused on her experience on debating about Black Athena during the past decades, and didn't present clearly the main points against Afrocentrism or some elements of afrocentric theory (although she refered to them briefly). I guess that this subject is almost exhausted and this video may refer to people who have already read or know the basics of Black Athena and Dr. Lefkowitz's work, but I hoped this to be more introductory.
@alexgibson2871
@alexgibson2871 Жыл бұрын
I think Mary is not interested in afrocentrism except as a reaction against earlier race biases - everyone else on the panel seemed more interested in it.
@JUICEelRey
@JUICEelRey Жыл бұрын
That's exactly how I felt. Not really giving countering points just saying it's not right
@moatazel-shafie3689
@moatazel-shafie3689 Жыл бұрын
​@IAMtv She appears sympathetic to Afrocentrists' narrative
@roanora7853
@roanora7853 8 ай бұрын
She doesn't want to rock the boat@@JUICEelRey - she's always been like this even as she debated racist blacks telling her she wasn't human in a debate setting - she always brushed it off and just said her piece, never taking the bait.
@roanora7853
@roanora7853 8 ай бұрын
She doesn't believe a lick of it but she doesn't want to hurt the feels of blacks@@moatazel-shafie3689 - she's just a typical lib.
@lutherrussell1566
@lutherrussell1566 Жыл бұрын
Did not Dr. John HenrikClarke destroyed these two rookies in the great debate?😂😂
@nkosijohnnkosi1779
@nkosijohnnkosi1779 Жыл бұрын
UUMMU.......The debate between Dr Leftkowitz and Dr Henry Clark settles the argument......
@bacoda58
@bacoda58 3 жыл бұрын
VERY COURAGEOUS- hope that"academia" doesn't put a professional hit on you for this expose'
@toddlarmer
@toddlarmer 3 жыл бұрын
I revere Dr. Lefkowitz. I wish the academe had such scholars of principle and courage today.
@TeddIdle34
@TeddIdle34 3 жыл бұрын
Lefkowitz is a wishy-washy bad faith actor
@bacoda58
@bacoda58 3 жыл бұрын
Impressed- was also gladdened by the humility that she showed concerning her depth of archaeology. I do wonder ,however, if she is acquainted with the Genome Mapping Project's report on its findings concerning the genetic history on Egypt.
@tyiingram9878
@tyiingram9878 3 жыл бұрын
You do know that over time genetics change in a place. My ancestors didn't come to America with Brit or Irish DNA, but yet I have both in my DNA. You all want Egyptians to be White so bad that you throw reason and logic out the window. Apparently you heard, but didn't listen to what Dr. Mary said. You just wanted to refute the information.
@bacoda58
@bacoda58 3 жыл бұрын
@@tyiingram9878 Hate to tell you but, no, genetics do not change in an individuals' context unless they are mixed from an outside (sexual reproduction) event. You have such a fear of Indo -European and Levantine genetics being the MAIN genetics in Ancient Egypt that you attempt to refute the established science of genetics.
@tyiingram9878
@tyiingram9878 3 жыл бұрын
@@bacoda58 you keep using these outdated ass fake points gaslighting folk. Don’t hate black because you ain’t black. It’s the jealousy for me
@bacoda58
@bacoda58 3 жыл бұрын
Don't tell me. Tell the the Genome Mapping Project. Maybe they should forget actual science and get the "facts" fed to them from the NOI reading room, lol. Of all the jealousies that I have experienced, "not being black" is not one of them. In fact, after a quick look around, I'm rather grateful.
@tyiingram9878
@tyiingram9878 3 жыл бұрын
@@bacoda58 🤣🤣🤣 jelly jelly. Maybe you’ll be black next lifetime. If your lucky. Sorry 😘
@bejtashsamson
@bejtashsamson Жыл бұрын
Black Athena was an amazing and much needed work of fact. I was actually very much looking forward to watching this video to hear your thoughts, but was dissuaded by your guest. Lefkowitz was astoundingly debated over 20 years ago, and left pretty invalidated, when attempting to defend her work by Dr Clarke and also Bernal. I definitely would love to hear other thoughts and content you have if you covered this topic with more honest scholars.
@treeztop
@treeztop Жыл бұрын
Hope you’re not going off of that terrible debate from the early 90s
@gilserrano8301
@gilserrano8301 5 ай бұрын
There are very few “facts” in Bernal’s work.
@hiberniancaveman8970
@hiberniancaveman8970 3 жыл бұрын
This has been such a brilliant interview, setting off thoughts here, there and everywhere. It’s quite late now, so I’ll just mention one. When Dr Lefkowitz mentioned Henry Louis Gates, it reminded me of a series on telly from about twenty years go, where he introduced us to a series of African civilizations, starting with Mapungubwe in South Africa where the king lived in his palace on top of the hill. It had a low door so that anyone entering to see the king had to bend down low to approach the royal presence. And I thought of a company boss at the top of the corporate skyscraper, and employees having to “crawl” to him in order to ask for a raise in salary. People don’t really change much, do they?
@siyabongamviko8872
@siyabongamviko8872 2 жыл бұрын
The low door house thing isn't so that people should bow when entering. The construction method is quite common and designed as a defence so that who would enter...with weapons, will face a challenge and the people inside can get a chance to defend themselves. Most commoners did not even go up that hill, there was serious bureaucracy plus a physical "stairway" (more like a ladder" to go up to the king, that's why in the local languages we have a saying, "to reach the king you go to the left, to the right, to the left, to the right. This is a rough translation. The ladder was zigzag and the one would be sent from official to official.
@afrobane12
@afrobane12 2 жыл бұрын
Sighhhhh, .. . here, kzfaq.info/get/bejne/j7eamMZotdXMl6M.html how about some TRUE BLACK African super-civilization and culture
@theMOCmaster
@theMOCmaster 3 жыл бұрын
Good interview, I agree you cannot steal philosophy!
@MythopoeicNavid
@MythopoeicNavid 3 жыл бұрын
The idea has been about cultural appropriation tho, you can always plagiarise and and steal ideas and claim you were the first to invent it. There's always been a tendency towards "The Greeks did it first" which of course is not accurate in many cases.
@afrobane12
@afrobane12 2 жыл бұрын
Sighhhhh, .. . here, kzfaq.info/get/bejne/j7eamMZotdXMl6M.html how about some TRUE BLACK African super-civilization and culture
@dgetzin
@dgetzin 3 жыл бұрын
28:00 Nice acknowledgment of the artistic influence - that was definitely a fact.
@keepmoving1185
@keepmoving1185 3 жыл бұрын
What a great guests!! I’ll look up her book
@richern2717
@richern2717 3 жыл бұрын
So if the Inuit carve and portray themselves in green soapstone does it mean that the Inuit were green ? I think most probably not. It was just the colour of the stone that was available...
@darkkuspang
@darkkuspang 3 жыл бұрын
Really? Your going to throw common sense out the window and stick with that?
@richern2717
@richern2717 3 жыл бұрын
@@darkkuspang Common Sense means different things to different people....
@tyiingram9878
@tyiingram9878 3 жыл бұрын
@@richern2717 😐 clearly. American education is a cluster. Smh
@afrobane12
@afrobane12 2 жыл бұрын
Sighhhhh, .. . here, kzfaq.info/get/bejne/j7eamMZotdXMl6M.html how about some TRUE BLACK African super-civilization and culture
@jackarnon5483
@jackarnon5483 3 жыл бұрын
One of the more enjoyable programs, recently. I also liked the program about the origin and spread of Indo-European, and the program on Philistine writing, but the interview was more extensive since Dr Lefkowitz offered extensive answers. I as sorry to see that the professor was ill. (Cancer will do that to you). I hope this brilliant and modest teacher will be around for a long time.
@Nkosi766
@Nkosi766 8 ай бұрын
This was nice
@harwn999
@harwn999 Жыл бұрын
Malcolm X was not a anti-Semitic and no where can she show anything she said that isn’t historical. How about she address what Aristotle said about the origins
@jaads7910
@jaads7910 3 жыл бұрын
BBC said Achilles was black, and BBC is always right, , so it makes sense all Greeks were black peoples,
@futureking2333
@futureking2333 3 жыл бұрын
DA we wuz Greekz n Shiet 🤡🤡🤡
@bobreilly4996
@bobreilly4996 3 жыл бұрын
@@futureking2333 Dey wasn't palm colored and shiet.
@futureking2333
@futureking2333 3 жыл бұрын
@@bobreilly4996 What?
@pampos2pac
@pampos2pac Жыл бұрын
🤣
@militantessayons
@militantessayons 3 жыл бұрын
The Stolen Legacy. Is one of my favorite books
@alexgibson2871
@alexgibson2871 Жыл бұрын
its really wonderful how you can get a sense of the quality of someone's work by listening to them talk about their priorities and the nature of their questions.
@gilserrano8301
@gilserrano8301 5 ай бұрын
No one thinks Egypt was a “white” civilization🤦🏻‍♂️ Even under the Ptolemies the non native population far outnumbered the Hellenistic population. But it also wasn’t sub Saharan African either. While there were at least a couple dynasties from what is now Sudan the general population was almost certainly similar to those of surrounding cultures in North Africa, Palestine and the Levant.
@charlesking415
@charlesking415 Ай бұрын
Parroting nonsense from the 2017 Schuenemann phony study carries zero weight.
@theJoker-dg4gf
@theJoker-dg4gf 3 жыл бұрын
Just remember that ancient Egyptians were BLACK like the rest of Africa. North Africa didn't start looking Arab until it got Conquered twice by Greece and twice by Rome. Lefkowitz and Guy Rogers got their historical clocks cleaned by Dr. John Henrik Clarke. Anybody watching this should read about Egypt and the rest of the world by Dr. Clarke.
@MrTimothy87
@MrTimothy87 2 жыл бұрын
Yes I saw that debate and it wasn't even any competition..he did run through her and she didn't have an answer for anything he said. She almost came off as racist and from what I've heard that's how her community looks at her..Dr.Kennedy pretty much said this in the last interview..
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 2 ай бұрын
Egyptians were NOT Black. They were diverse Mediterranean people, just like modern ones. Clarke was guy who thought Cleopatra was Black, he was joke.
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 2 ай бұрын
@@MrTimothy87 It is Clarke who is r777st for blk washing Egypt and Greece.
@mrnancy1114
@mrnancy1114 3 жыл бұрын
Oh speaking of a Senegal - Nile Valley connection, there is some truth to this, its in the form of Tumulus burials, just saw an interesting vid lecture on it only a couple days ago. *The Kushite Kingdom Of Kerma In Post Middle Kingdom Era by Dr Faraji* UC Berkeley Archeological Research Facility. So this is archeological findings. prepared to be a lil annoyed at the recent political stuff as part of the pre introduction, this was October last year, so it makes some sense. Yes it's on KZfaq put the highlighted part in your search engine.
@mrnancy1114
@mrnancy1114 3 жыл бұрын
@Philippe James I would be, but who knows..wait a min..I know who would know.. folks .with studies, carried out by field archeologist and physical anthropologist Maria C Gatto, at least those hugging the Nile Valley..😆
@mrnancy1114
@mrnancy1114 3 жыл бұрын
@Philippe James First what is a Berber ,Black and Berber are not mutually exclusive. The Takrur are Niger Congo speakers. Third the Tumulus burials are spread over a wide area and was/is in Tropical West Africa, the Sonniki a mande people are associated with them in that part of the world, are also Niger Congo speakers like the Fulani people. Fulani aka Takrur make up a significant part of AA ancestry especially among the Geechie black folks on the sea Islands the off the Carolina coast, who planted rice. they are also adept in cattle handling.
@mrnancy1114
@mrnancy1114 3 жыл бұрын
@Philippe James Ok the meat from the study said this. [ The Fulani people are the most wide-spread pastoralist group in the Sahel/Savannah belt, living (today) in a very large area that extends from the Fouta Djallon in Guinea to the Blue Nile in Ethiopia and Sudan. Even though an origin in the central Sahara has been suggested on archaeological grounds [53], we found that the contemporary Fulani have a *predominant West African genetic background combined with North African and European ancestry* fractions (Fig. 1b, Additional file 2: Figure S4, S9). These estimated genomic ancestry components, based on an in-depth genome analysis of a Fulani group from Ziniaré, Burkina Faso, are comparable to those inferred in previously studied Fulani groups from other regions of Africa [17, 38, 54]. *The sub-Saharan ancestry in Fulani clusters close to West African Niger-Congo speakers represented in our dataset by e.g. Wolof, Jola, Gurmanche* ] What this prove is Eurasian dna back migrated to Africa and filtered down, causing some Fulani to have between 15 - 20% of their genome linked to Eurasia, that however does not make them Eurasian, any more than *Greeks, Sicilians and Macedonians fundamentally Africans, based off Benin Hbs* in those population at similar rates. As for Northwest African genome, they are sibling to their tropical west African counterparts, as both their Daddy *E* haplotype is from East Central Africa who is the quintessential African. I mean without him there would be no Africans.
@mrnancy1114
@mrnancy1114 3 жыл бұрын
@Philippe James Ok I'm no purists not gonna have a fit over it , like I said who knows , but they are the sons and daughters of Africa, not unlike the one drop rule you sneered at earlier...☺
@mrnancy1114
@mrnancy1114 3 жыл бұрын
@Philippe James Yeah yeah I know all that, you need to know what *"White"* meant in tropical west Africa during those times. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/ismdqtiSm93PgKs.html Go here ^^ African Dominion by Michael Gomez . The vid lecture is in three parts you need to ff to avoid dead space. the vid is good the book is excellent. I'm out.😉
@alexandartheserb7861
@alexandartheserb7861 10 ай бұрын
How about to ask us, natives in Balkans does we want decolonization from African invaders in Greece? Africans wanted 19th century European colonists out, and we want 3000 years old African colonists out too
@kimberlyperrotis8962
@kimberlyperrotis8962 3 жыл бұрын
Thanks so much Dr. Lefkowitz, and Nick for making this interview possible.
@afrobane12
@afrobane12 2 жыл бұрын
Sighhhhh, .. . here, kzfaq.info/get/bejne/j7eamMZotdXMl6M.html how about some TRUE BLACK African super-civilization and culture
@jayboyd3055
@jayboyd3055 2 жыл бұрын
Dr. Lefkowitz was destoyed in the great debate by Dr. John Hedrick Clark!!!
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 2 ай бұрын
More like he by her. Clarke is joke who insisted Cleopatra was Black.
@skeletalbassman1028
@skeletalbassman1028 3 жыл бұрын
The dead are made to serve the living. "Black Athena" is what you get when that happens.
@huriale1617
@huriale1617 3 жыл бұрын
It's funny, because in France, we have a quote that says the exact opposite. “The deads rule the living”, by Auguste Comte, philosopher and sociologist, known to be the founder of positivism.
@skeletalbassman1028
@skeletalbassman1028 3 жыл бұрын
@@huriale1617 I was paraphrasing Philip K Dick, basically. A Scanner, Darkly.
@pablopumarestaminiau7512
@pablopumarestaminiau7512 3 жыл бұрын
Quite a few Europeans were brought over as slaves. The terms slave and indentured servant were used interchangeably on the original documents of sale and purchase. European slaves brought over to the colonies is where we get our terms "kidnapped" and "spirited away"from
@Methodius7
@Methodius7 3 жыл бұрын
There is still difference between that and black chattel slavery.
@pablopumarestaminiau7512
@pablopumarestaminiau7512 3 жыл бұрын
@@Methodius7 Differences and similarities, surely. We live in a culture that downplays centuries of white slavery as irrelevant because slavery is only talked about in the context of the Trans Atlantic slave trade, that's the main difference. In both cases we're talking about people who were brought over against their will- that was the point; not all Europeans came to the Americas or to Australia voluntarily. And both were made to do hard labour as someone else's property. Who do you think would suffer more from toiling in plantations under a cruel sun, day in day out? Melanin-rich African or pale and freckled Irishmen and Brits?
@charlesmoore1621
@charlesmoore1621 Жыл бұрын
@@Methodius7 So being a white slave in the Sahara desert Slaving in salt mine was not as bad as black slave picking cotton in the south.
@innerworks1
@innerworks1 Жыл бұрын
The issue is the view point that these topics are gazed . From my studies the ancient Egyptians didn’t practice philosophy, they dealt with facts centered on a archaic transference of knowledge based on the study of nature.
@filthygee
@filthygee 3 жыл бұрын
Omg Dr. Lefkowitz is still alive! I haven't seen her since the debate with John Henrick Clarke and Bernal. Great job digging her up man. Glad to see her on here.
@kimberlyperrotis8962
@kimberlyperrotis8962 3 жыл бұрын
This is not a very respectful comment, what are you, 13? Mind your manners.
@IvorMektin1701
@IvorMektin1701 3 жыл бұрын
I knew a tall blonde Athena and her sister was named Arwen, yep, their parents were hippies.
@robertdystant8461
@robertdystant8461 Жыл бұрын
To have clarity and on unbias view of Dr. Mary Lefkowitz critique on Black Athena its important to review the debate between Dr. Lefkowitz and Dr. Bernal about his book Black Athena. This was a platfirm where Dr. Bernal had on oppertunity to defend his hypothesis and as a student of history i belief he .ade a very credible presentation. This debate was in around 1996 or 1997 under the title, "The Great Debate." You should google this debate.
@sixhundredmoblife9142
@sixhundredmoblife9142 3 жыл бұрын
I really do agree with the Dr but in the Mediterranean world all of those cultures most likely had some kind of Influence on each other in one way or another...I really want to know her opinion on the current debates on wether or not black people are the original Hebrews of the Bible ( which I totally disagree ).
@titanmode3888
@titanmode3888 3 жыл бұрын
I highly doubt that Sumeria was the cradle of civilization. When you look at the level of sophistication between Egypt and Sumer it's clear Egypt is ahead on all aspect, the Nubian calendar at Napta Playa dates back to at least 9000 BC, at that time there was no civilization in the Levant.
@NegativeBodhiImage
@NegativeBodhiImage 3 жыл бұрын
7500 BC or 9521 bpe - and its Nabta Playa not Napta. There are traces of civilization in the Levant (depending on how you gauge civilization) going back to Kebaran and Natufian eras which is the birth of agriculture (Kebaran (17 000-10 500 B.C.) and the Natufian periods (10 500-8 800 B.C.). Nabta Playa is impressive though to be certain and in all likelyhood a SubSaharan site of habitation.
@davidmontoute2074
@davidmontoute2074 3 жыл бұрын
@TitanMode, Given the discoveries that have pushed both agriculture and complex socities way back into the Pleistocene, it's obvious that there is no one 'source' for our civilisation. Take Gobekli Tepe for example, and another related site nearby. These are immensely old structures and completely overturn the (already outdated) idea of civilisation suddenly "springing up' out of nowhere circa 3000 BC.
@NegativeBodhiImage
@NegativeBodhiImage 3 жыл бұрын
@@davidmontoute2074 Even Cro Magnon 35,000 bpe have shown traces of grain diet but probably gathered not cultivated... animal domestication was already underway in the case of dogs in W. Euro Cro Magnon cultures,
@davidmontoute2074
@davidmontoute2074 3 жыл бұрын
@@NegativeBodhiImage , thanks. I didn't know that. Agriculture in China some 23,000 years ago: phys.org/news/2013-05-agriculture-china-years.html
@mrnancy1114
@mrnancy1114 3 жыл бұрын
There were no one cradle of civilization, there were a bunch of cradles, some may have interacted with each other, some may not, we should kick that thought process out of our thinking.
@AliceYobby
@AliceYobby 9 ай бұрын
You should have asked Mary why she didn’t let Bernal respond to her criticisms in Black Athena Revisited. Her entire perspective and that of Bernal’s critics seem mostly to be misunderstanding or misinterpreting his claims, which you can easily see in his responses: half of them begin with, in so many words, “You are correct that such a point would be wrong, but it is a point I never argued. The point I argued is-“ He never claimed Greeks were black. He never claimed Greek was nothing but an African colony. These are skewed interpretations, as if respecting the volume of Egypt’s actual influence upon Greece instead of viewing it as a side-note is a charge that Greece had no culture of its own. I’m fact they use Bernals real scholarly attempts - which have some been proven wrong, but this is how academics should be, you address a claim and study it rather than misinterpret and dismiss it - as placeholders for purely political Afrocentrist motives, who state ridiculous things that Cleopatra or Socrates being black, something Bernal has never claimed, and something all of his writings in fact outright dismiss. Just absurd and a terrible way to treat someone. I would like to make a note, that his dating of the Minoan eruption at 1626BC, at the time being dated at 1500BC at the *very earliest*, but more commonly at 1420BC, has been proven by actual radiocarbon dating and other hard scientific methods to be extremely accurate (the range now being 1600-1650BC). But this was of course dismissed at the time, when it was ever even discussed. It took another 20 years for the now correct date to be accepted, and some Classicists who hold on to their understanding of Greek timelines still dismiss the hard science of it, betraying their obvious biases.
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 2 ай бұрын
But he claimed Egyptians were Black - and that is not true.
@nowthenzen
@nowthenzen 11 ай бұрын
Traveling back in time with Nick. RIP
@bubbahubba7238
@bubbahubba7238 3 жыл бұрын
"The Black Athena hypothesis" is a ridiculous scam.
@michaelbernard7402
@michaelbernard7402 3 жыл бұрын
Not true and the only foolishness is your lying scams
@user-mq6qv6bi2g
@user-mq6qv6bi2g 3 жыл бұрын
Then you never read the book at all. You are making biased conclusion just from the Title. Smh
@michaelbernard7402
@michaelbernard7402 3 жыл бұрын
@@user-mq6qv6bi2g sorry I have and the black Athena is true. Further there are other historical evidence and early historians who affirmative of the black Greece long before you lot took over especially after the 1800s. Thanks
@michaelbernard7402
@michaelbernard7402 3 жыл бұрын
@@user-mq6qv6bi2g Their names, when translated, are in some cases the same as those of the celestial gods, while others have a distinct appellation, such as p47 Helius, Cronus, and Rhea, and also the Zeus who is called Ammon by some, and besides these Hera and Hephaestus, also Hestia, and, finally, Hermes. Helius was the first king of the Egyptians, his name being the same as that of the heavenly star.29 3 Some of the priests, however, say that Hephaestus was their first king, since he was the discoverer of fire and received the rule because of this service to mankind; for once, when a tree on the mountains had been struck by lightning and the forest near by was ablaze, Hephaestus went up to it, for it was winter-time, and greatly enjoyed the heat; as the fire died down he kept adding fuel to it, and while keeping the fire going in this way he invited the rest of mankind to enjoy the advantage which came from it. 4 Then Cronus became the ruler, and upon marrying his sister Rhea he begat Osiris and Isis, according to some writers of mythology, but, according to the majority, Zeus and Hera, whose high achievements gave them dominion over the entire universe. From these last were sprung five gods, one born on each of the five days which the Egyptians intercalate;30 the names of these children were Osiris and Isis, and also Typhon, Apollo, and Aphroditê; 5 and Osiris when translated is Dionysus, and Isis is more similar to Demeter than to any other goddess; and after Osiris married Isis and succeeded to the kingship he did many things of service to the social life of man.
@michaelbernard7402
@michaelbernard7402 3 жыл бұрын
@@user-mq6qv6bi2g II)DIODORUS SICULUS LIBRARY OF HISTORY
@NegativeBodhiImage
@NegativeBodhiImage 3 жыл бұрын
Finally! a voice of reason.
@elbentos7803
@elbentos7803 3 жыл бұрын
She uses genuine methodology though sadly enough, this is quite a rarity on this Channel...
@NegativeBodhiImage
@NegativeBodhiImage 3 жыл бұрын
@@elbentos7803 I may not agree 100% with all of her conclusions, but please at least give me a balanced approach based on reasonable evidence. This is why I despise critical theory, its the opposite of scientific method, it starts with a preconceived biased conclusions (usually some moral or emotional stance) and then cherry picks elements to fit their theories, and ignores all evidence to the contrary, rather than testing a hypothesis and seeing if the evidence supports it.
@elbentos7803
@elbentos7803 3 жыл бұрын
@@NegativeBodhiImage Exactly, she's honest, cultured and competent ; I don't ask for more. Years ago, I read "Black Athena" (in a french translation) and was appalled by the huge amount of factual mistakes, heavily biased interpretations, some of the weirdest being M. Bernal assuming Louis XIV being personnaly interested in ancient egyptian religion. Given how violently pro-catholic this particular king actually was, it was, well, "awkward". Beside, widespread interest in ancient Egypt among Europe's elite became a thing only a century later, with Napoleon's expedition and subsequent publications. Everything I read in this book, back then seemed bizarre, to say the least.
@poltergeistfm
@poltergeistfm 3 жыл бұрын
Great interview! Thank you
@courtneyturner5083
@courtneyturner5083 2 жыл бұрын
Greek philosophy was not ‘stolen’, it was heavily influenced by ‘ancient’ black Egypt … not Greco-Egypt.
@joeel-shazly8326
@joeel-shazly8326 2 жыл бұрын
Black Egypt LMFAO 😂😂
@Nikos2000-c6n
@Nikos2000-c6n Жыл бұрын
There is no black Egypt
@antarah9315
@antarah9315 2 жыл бұрын
We have seen the famous exchange between this charming lady & the late Dr Bernal... I don't know if Bernal was right but the arguments presented in BLACK ATHENA and later in response to his Critics... "Black Athena Writes Back" were far more convincing than the criticisms made by dr Lefkovitz...
@anthonylamont6518
@anthonylamont6518 3 жыл бұрын
A great interview with an eminent scholar on a fascinating topic. 👍🏾
@some1350
@some1350 Жыл бұрын
It's difficult to know what the ancient Egyptians looked like? Is it difficult to figure out what the Anglo-Saxons looked like? I could be wrong but that sounds asinine to me.
@dwainkitchel1316
@dwainkitchel1316 3 жыл бұрын
Not at all sure you got exactly what you were aiming for in this interview. But what you did get is a remarkable look back through academia and the history of who we are as Americans and how we have moved forward(and backwards). Racism will not go away until entire generations are never subjected to it or taught it. We are a long long way from that right now but we inch ever closer. Dr Lefkowitz has shed some light on how mistakes by both sides can inch us forward and generate a conversation among people willing to learn. Thx for this.
@errolholmes3838
@errolholmes3838 3 жыл бұрын
Glad to get Dr leftowitz perspective at a order age . Really enjoyed this one
@IvorMektin1701
@IvorMektin1701 3 жыл бұрын
I'm 22:51 in and this is one of bravest members of academia I've seen in a long time.
@Taylordessalines
@Taylordessalines 2 жыл бұрын
Of course she is… she’s white and so are you.
@dadsonworldwide3238
@dadsonworldwide3238 3 жыл бұрын
In the south it was just 2 seperate everyone living in 2 worlds. It wasn't any money for the black community to start with to cycle threw. But when white and black bathrooms was built one was kept up one wasnt. Even today we have a divide in how we choose to live. Put money in home and land while some buy new cars and expensive shoes. Grass isn't always greener.
@mach-symroscisawski1560
@mach-symroscisawski1560 3 жыл бұрын
One question. the subject is Black Athena and discussion whether Afrocentric view of history is correct or not. So why there were so many comments on antisemitism? Is that relevant? Or is this very nice and very intelligent and very well read lady having her own agenda? what do you think?
@youngmorpheuscage
@youngmorpheuscage 3 жыл бұрын
Great question 🤔
@fortunatusnine2012
@fortunatusnine2012 3 жыл бұрын
Racism can apply to all people . Dr.M.L. apparently does not realize this. Ancient Egyptians not white ? Yes and no . Dependent upon time periods and intermixtures . I have changed my rating from approval to disapproval on account of a lot of her side views are just too subjective . Sorry .
@fortunatusnine2012
@fortunatusnine2012 3 жыл бұрын
Tell that to the black pharaohs. Tell that to red haired ramses(s). time eras are not fantasies . For intermixtures to happen , there must have been whites , there must of been blacks .
@shauniebnaturalista6672
@shauniebnaturalista6672 3 жыл бұрын
Sumer, Egypt and Greece each influenced one another across thousands of years. The chicken-or-the-egg and "centric" arguments are pointless and unknowable.
@titanmode3888
@titanmode3888 3 жыл бұрын
ShaunieBNaturalista Sumer and Greece didn't influenced Egypt, that's a false narrative. It's Egypt that influenced the Greeks and all others.
@il967
@il967 3 жыл бұрын
@@titanmode3888 they all influenced each other. Egyptian used Akkadian for diplomacy. Wow, I just completely annihilated your argument.
@titanmode3888
@titanmode3888 3 жыл бұрын
@@il967 They didn't influenced each other. Akkadians came way after the Egyptians and there is nothing Akkadian about diplomacy with your childish "i annihilated your argument"
@il967
@il967 3 жыл бұрын
@@titanmode3888 My argument still stands. I brought up an example of akkadian influencing Egyptians. You made a statement that Akkadians came after Egyptians as a counterargument, yet, it is completely irrelevant to my argument and disproves nothing.
@titanmode3888
@titanmode3888 3 жыл бұрын
@@il967 Diplomacy isn't Akkadian, get that nonsense out your head.
@2msvalkyrie529
@2msvalkyrie529 Жыл бұрын
What did " Black Athena " get wrong.? er.....how much time have we got ?
@feb111980mhh
@feb111980mhh 3 жыл бұрын
Hey!!!
@Tipi_Dan
@Tipi_Dan 3 жыл бұрын
"Afrocentrism" is an unusual but very serious form of cultural appropriation or expropriation: historical appropriation. It has its source in one of many historically downtrodden groups presently accusing Europeans of cultural appropriation. Those accusations focus mostly on cooptions of ethnic styles or trends in areas such as music or fashion. Yet styles have historically been fluid and have always moved between ethnicities. History is a different matter entirely. No downtrodden group can advance its position or status by co-opting any other group's history. Advancement can only be ensured by embracing and discovering one's own authentic history and heritage, and progress can only be solidified when this is done with eyes open to the truth, warts and all.
@carlpalios-potts5328
@carlpalios-potts5328 3 жыл бұрын
I would love to know if Dr Lefkowitz or yourself have come across the likes of Dr Ivan Van Sertima, Dr Cheick Anta Diop, Dr John Henrik Clark, Dr Kaba Kamene.. Black Athena is one of many subject's worthy of your channel ♥️
@TH-987
@TH-987 3 жыл бұрын
She has had a debate with John Clarke. Of course she lost.
@sarad6627
@sarad6627 3 жыл бұрын
@@TH-987 is there a link to the debate?
@ron1313
@ron1313 3 жыл бұрын
Is there a link to the debate?
@ChiefX07
@ChiefX07 3 жыл бұрын
@@TH-987 john was all of topic and told stories all night. Mary was correct then and now. U need to watch again and not be biased
@carlpalios-potts5328
@carlpalios-potts5328 3 жыл бұрын
@@TH-987 You are so right. I didnt even recognise the women, She seemed very nice and humble in this interview. Matured and learnt alot after the debate.. She lost 🤣
@Gametime41300
@Gametime41300 Жыл бұрын
What do u think about the genetic studies that show 20 to 40 percent of southern Greeks have an African Y chromosome?
@randomglitchclips4463
@randomglitchclips4463 Жыл бұрын
I think is normal because that is where humans evolve from, so if you don’t have them, then you are a fucken alien.
@renatonigro
@renatonigro 3 жыл бұрын
Of course, like anything on this day and age, this hypothesis wouldn’t be pushed by any ideologues with political agendas, right? It’s purely based on legitimate search for knowledge. 🙄
@davidmontoute2074
@davidmontoute2074 3 жыл бұрын
Loved her summary about confirmation bias towards the end. Great interview over all.
@kurtf.4383
@kurtf.4383 3 жыл бұрын
Yeah, you hear that guys? ALL Europeans are collectively guilty of being “racist” just because of their Caucasoid complexion! Funny, it’s always a “fellow white” saying this. Great presentation otherwise, but horribly spoiled and tainted after these comments.
@danielhopkins296
@danielhopkins296 Жыл бұрын
So much left out here: such as one of the founding families of Athens was the Argamenes, the same name / title of the Ethiopian king Arkamenes. She leaves out the Sanskrit stratum in Egypt and the Levant from the Hurrian Mitanni rulers
@RoninDave
@RoninDave Жыл бұрын
where are you making this up?
@danielhopkins296
@danielhopkins296 Жыл бұрын
@@RoninDave this what ?
@blueview5200
@blueview5200 3 жыл бұрын
I've seen her debate it didn't turn out well.
@TeddIdle34
@TeddIdle34 3 жыл бұрын
Nope she's not good
@PsyrosGR
@PsyrosGR 3 жыл бұрын
@@TeddIdle34 She is a respected scientist. She held her own against a hostile (and ignorant) audience.
@qoako9695
@qoako9695 3 жыл бұрын
@@PsyrosGR Too bad she didn't hold her own against the actual people she was debating with.
@PsyrosGR
@PsyrosGR 3 жыл бұрын
@@qoako9695 you mean the guy that told her 'i only debate my equals all others i teach"? It's a Debate, not Epic Rap Battles of History. He didn't utter a single argument ffs. The only reason you believe 'she didn't hold her own' against this charlatan is because of the audience's reaction. If the debate was in Athens, Greece you 'd have a different impression. By the way Socrates' response to the news that he was declared the wisest man in the world by the Oracle at Delphi was 'The only thing i know, is that i know nothing'. It's his most famous quote. Contrast this with 'i only debate my equals all others i teach' and tell me who's the charlatan. F**** John Henrik Clarke.
@Ayo.Ajisafe
@Ayo.Ajisafe 3 жыл бұрын
I don't agree with alot she says but congratulations on having her on!
@davidmontoute2074
@davidmontoute2074 3 жыл бұрын
Open-mindedness and exploration of counterarguments is always needed.
@kerryholifieldjr6395
@kerryholifieldjr6395 10 ай бұрын
She lost me at it's crazy. Hundreds of years ago his view was the norm.
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518
@pendragonsxskywalkers9518 2 ай бұрын
Because people knew nothing about actual Egypt - only what Greeks said.
@nicolasntovas5667
@nicolasntovas5667 2 ай бұрын
Identify theft at the highest level.
@MammaKush88
@MammaKush88 3 жыл бұрын
NEITH was the Egyptian equivalent of Athena
@sak594
@sak594 3 жыл бұрын
If your read ΑΘΗΝΑ upside ,your read Α. ΝΗΘΑ (NEITH).
@Leejahstar
@Leejahstar 3 жыл бұрын
athena and lilith are the same the white man dont have no history
@lilman02140
@lilman02140 3 жыл бұрын
Too bad John Henry Clarke not here.
@TH-987
@TH-987 3 жыл бұрын
Because he would end this false narrative that is being pushed.
@sarad6627
@sarad6627 3 жыл бұрын
He's got nothing to add and it would be more of his baseless conjecture.
@TH-987
@TH-987 3 жыл бұрын
You sound stupid. Must be the calcified pineal gland.
@sunnyeren
@sunnyeren 3 жыл бұрын
I always found it interesting, revisionism was a response to the whitewashing of history especially during the colonial times. This was done to fix a lot of the biases of history, for example there was some archaeologist who tried to say that Great Zimbabwe was a colony of King Solomon because this is where he "supposedly" went to dig up gold from his mine. Of course this is bull and ignores native history of Africa who actually built and a great trading empire in sub Sahara Africa. However what started to fix biases and colonism now swung the opposite direction with Gal Gadot being cast as Cleopatra as some people claiming Cleopatra was black. We know this is not true as she was descended from Ptolemy the General under Alexander the Great and was from Macedon and were Greek. I do think there is some politics at play, and I understand when dealing with people who are trying to reclaim their history especially those that are part of the African diaspora but claiming all these things that logic should tell you isn't right. Africa has a a great history of it's own like the Great Mali empire of Mansa Musa, or Ethiopia or Nubian Kingdoms and Great Zimbabwe to name a few. Claiming things just repeats the mistakes of the past. The truth will always come out... Now if you want to claim like Aesop was black well there are some ancient records that claim that Aesop was black a look at the wiki page if you want to read.
@ryanparker4996
@ryanparker4996 2 жыл бұрын
I wouldnt consider the Great Mali Empire to be great history considering the brutality of it. Perhaps these afrocentrists are more concerned with claiming other peoples history because of the shame they would feel by finding out the truth. They have been antagonistic towards eachother and the rest of the world since the beginning. Nothing has changed today.
@afrobane12
@afrobane12 2 жыл бұрын
Sighhhhh, .. . here, kzfaq.info/get/bejne/j7eamMZotdXMl6M.html how about some TRUE BLACK African super-civilization and culture
@EstbXCIII
@EstbXCIII 5 ай бұрын
At this point AA re7ards are just reaching into a hat and saying that so-and-so were black
@jairomole229
@jairomole229 3 жыл бұрын
am I 1st? 🙌🏾🕺🏾
@jairomole229
@jairomole229 3 жыл бұрын
Ok, now I can watch the vid 😁
@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449
@studyofantiquityandthemidd4449 3 жыл бұрын
You have been chosen as 1st!
@jjw56
@jjw56 3 жыл бұрын
Finally! Great interview, i happened upon her by accident and it definitely brought up valid criticisms of Bernal’s work. What she said about the origins of masonry is extraordinary. I will find that novel. Also, she reiterated the facts that of course there was always interactions between Africa and Greece. I loved her reaction to when she learned that Socrates was black (or interracial). Something that shouldn’t matter at all, but only when you put our racial millennial garbage on it that it becomes an issue. Certainly doesn’t seem to be an issue back then because Socrates was and identified as Greek; that was most important in his time.
@joek600
@joek600 3 жыл бұрын
The detail is that archaic and classical Athens was a very tribal society not at all open to foreigners. If you were a metoikos (immigrant) even if you were extremely successful in life, you were never considered a true Athenian.
@maniacgr2617
@maniacgr2617 3 жыл бұрын
The correct title should have been. NOT OUT OF AFRICA.
@user-iy3qs7sd7z
@user-iy3qs7sd7z 8 ай бұрын
Thanks to yourbook i am 💯 percent sure that martin Bernard his is totally RIGHT
@lunaokittens9574
@lunaokittens9574 3 жыл бұрын
Cause we wuz kangs & sheit!... 😭🤦‍♂️😭
@joelarmour
@joelarmour 3 жыл бұрын
Was Narmer white? Or Seneferu? Or Mentuhotep? Or the 12th dynasty with Amenemhat? Or Ahmose?
@lunaokittens9574
@lunaokittens9574 3 жыл бұрын
@@joelarmour you can't speak of whole dynasties - the fact is that if you test 90% of ancient mummies, they will have DNA that is haplogroup H, period. That doesn't mean that every person who ever passed thru Egypt was white. But then when you test the DNA of MODERN Egyptians, guess what? The DNA is STILL haplogroup H. That means they aren't black today, so they weren't black then. This isn't rocket science, ffs. You can pull ANY Egyptian off the street & get haplo H. Egypt is on the EDGE of Africa, not deep in the congo, & back then, the borders were easy to cross. Africa is a continent, NOT a country. The only time that Egypt was conquered by blacks is when Nubia took over. They erected a statue for every new nubian ruler & there are ONLY 7 statues. THEY STILL EXIST TODAY. If there are only 7, that should tell you something & ALSO give you an idea of time. When the next Egyptian ruler regained his throne, he held a grudge & practically wiped the nubians off the face of the earth & took over all the gold mines. Go read the historical reports they left. He wiped out so many of their cities that they could NEVER revolt again. It is ALSO written about in the histories of other countries who spoke of what happened... This is WELL KNOWN, but some people don't have the GUTS to speak on it because they fear reprisal. Just like it is WELL KNOWN for over 30 years that chedder man isn't black, but they caved in & changed it because people with an agenda started whining about it. I have NO agenda - what I am stating is FACT, & you can go to Egypt & look at the statues if you doubt it. 6 are still standing & the 7th is only from the waist down. The next Egyptian ruler BURIED them, so they were preserved... 👍
@susanpeters6085
@susanpeters6085 3 жыл бұрын
lol, kangs and sheit of NOTHING lol
@tyiingram9878
@tyiingram9878 3 жыл бұрын
@@lunaokittens9574 😂😂😂 you using DNA wrong. Get some help
@tyiingram9878
@tyiingram9878 3 жыл бұрын
@@susanpeters6085 return to your cave
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