Hi Paul, here are my thoughts: 1) First and foremost, I think if you can afford and justify the original, always support the Brand who put the time and effort into designing it. 2) I truly believe this tent won’t affect Durston’s sales. If I did, I wouldn’t have made the video. The X-Mid 2 is approx £375 to the UK and the Yun Chuan 2 cost me £138 (over £200 less). 3) Running a KZfaq Channel has been a humbling experience. For many, the thought of buying a £375 tent is completely out of the question. However, £138 may be within some people’s reach. I like the thought of people with limited funds having access to top-end tent designs even with a small budget. 4) The outdoor industry is riddled with similarly designed products. They’re everywhere from tents to stoves to bags to pads. It’s not just the Chinese, everyone’s at it! Let’s also not forget, Durston is not squeaky clean either (ask Tarptent / Sierra Designs). 5) Camping gear is getting more and more expensive and an increasingly large amount of people are being excluded from buying new gear. I hate this! Surely backpacking is for everyone? The mark-ups are huge. Greedflation seems to be rife and it needs to stop. 6) My review has really hit a nerve to some and I guess it’s because Dan is a nice guy and his customer service is excellent. However, these similarly designed tents have been around for years and many of us have owned a Lanshan 2 (Six Moon Designs / Z-Packs), Cloud Up 2 (Big Agnes / Terra Nova), Cloud Peak 2 (Hilleberg), OEX, etc, etc. This tent is just another on a long line of similarly designed products. In summary, it's a really difficult one. I want the little guy to have access to great designs but I also feel sorry for the Brands having their designs made similarly. At the end of the day though, I'm sure people who have the money will always buy the original, and I think that puts the case to bed. People are probably worrying over nothing, and in the meantime, the little guy is enjoying their new stylish product.

Like you Paul I bought the naturhike Cloud Peak 2 tent. I paid around 135 euro for it 2 years ago and have spend about 23 -25 nights in it. I could never ever afford the Hilleberg Allak for around 1250 euro (9 times as much !), so no loss there for Hilleberg. For the money it is a fantastic value, I like the tent very much and think the quality is ok and even very good for the money. No problems so far. I don't camp in stormy or extreme cold conditions like youtibers do, -8 Celsius being the coldest so far. For enthousiasts who camp maybe 30-40 nights in a year and do not have deep pockets Chinese knock-offs are a viable option and I do not feel quilty buying these products. I think MOST people who buy Chinese knock-off tents for 100-200 are not real potential customers for companies like Hilleberg or Durston. So there is no real loss there for these companies. Just my opinion. Camping gear wise I am more the English Woodsman type and I am good with that.

Thanks for the kind words Paul.

Interesting debate. I own a Cloud Peak 2, a Trekology UL80, Sleep Matt, an APG Stove, OEX Ultralight chair and loads of Eurohike gear .I don't feel guilty in the slightest. I couldn't afford a thousand quid Hilleberg tent, and even if i could I wouldn't pay it. If these "top brands" want to rip of consumers with outlandish pprices, then they can hardly grumble when they are ripped off themselves. For the record, all the "Cheaper" gear I own has been great, suits my needs and allows me to get out wild camping. If it wasn't aviailable I'd never have bothered and wouldn't be subscribing to your's and the other You Tubers. I'm extremely grateful for the content you and others produce as I thouroughly enjoy your content.

I would say that it is possible that one feeds the other, to a degree. I fancied doing a little wild camping after watching yours and other youtubers' videos. I didn't really have the money to spend and wasn't sure it was going to be a long lasting hobby so I bought a Lanshan 1 after watching a lot of reviews. It's been a good tent, weight, quality, everything. I now know it was a rip off of a Moon designs tent, probably the same kind of set up as Durston BUT I would NEVER have brought that Moon Design tent as my first, would never have invested that much. Now, a couple of years later, I am in the market for a Hilleberg Soulo. One thing leads to the other. So the Chinese knock offs have a role to play in letting people experiment and bring new people into the market, who slowly gain knowledge and may well go on to become higher spending customers ... tricky one. Good topic.

The one thing that nearly always get's overlooked when people talk about mark-up is development costs, yes it could cost only £10 to make something that sells for a £100, but that company could have spent 100's of thousands in development and that needs to be recouped, the copies don't have these costs.

It's a tricky one, brands overcharge for non specialist stuff but we fall for it and buy. For knock off designs it's sometimes hard to judge the quality/value piece. I recently bought a Rab waterproof because i mistakenly believed it would be waterproof whereas its barely showerproof for 30 mins and my Mountain warehouse coat is actually much better and cost about the same...

I’m a bit confused……rip off design gear is ok to buy unless it’s a Dursten ??

Some people simply can’t afford top end gear the big companies do rip the arse out of you with their prices, many people just can’t afford it for what’s essentially a hobby. 👍🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿

Years ago a mate went to Turkey and in a market they were selling 3 branded sports tops for £10(they take foreign money). They were called genuine fakes because that particular brand had their clothing made in Turkish factories for sale around the world at ridiculous prices. The factories would make some for the brand and some for sale out the back door to market traders, so they were the real article. My mate brought some and compared them to ones he owned back in England and they were identical and lasted years.

Great, thought provoking video Paul. It’s about time that we as outdoor enthusiasts discuss and fully understand the issues that surround our pastime. The more we are informed the better choices we can all make and also bring about positive change, such as cheaper prices from the big brand names. Would you be up for discussing issues like this now and again, might be good for a podcast? Our past time needs to be fun and not too serious but I think most of us want to do the right thing whilst not being ripped off.

This video really lifted my spirits today. Thank you. There is an odd feeling of flattery and disappointment when the knockoffs appear. Thanks for bringing attention to this issue.

Good points well made. Unfortunately we lost manufacturing on many levels a long time ago. Best thing would be to support local businesses and manufacturers where you can afford to do so

These big companies are shooting themselves in their own foot by charging those ridiculous prices. Sure there's innovation and R&D in their products, but $1000 CAD for what is basically a piece of fabric is beyond ridiculous. Camping started as an affordable way to get outside without spending a lot of money and enjoying nature, and the corporate world has turned it into some posh fashion accessory of who's got the nicest most expensive gear. Tbh, who isn't copying someone else now? Trekology, Marmot, MSR, Nature Hike. Everyone has something that is a modified copy of someone else's gear. People need to realize, a lot of these brands are made in the same manufacturing building and just slapping their big name brand on that same shirt or tent and charging 2-8x the price. Asia calls it AM/PM manufacturing, in the AM, they're making the proper product supplied by the big name company of the mold with QC and slapping the name on it. When the 9-5 is done, the graveyard shift makes the same thing without the badge and cheaper material using the same patent.

Nice information. It's important to know that most budget (knockoff) gear will have material and/or quality differences. Thanks for making this.

Every year around Christmas Chinese ‘students’ hit markets around Belfast taking photographs of nearly every handmade product they see. As traders of handmade items ourselves we see this so regularly that we got a sign made up in Chinese that we display and as soon as they appear the sign comes out and we start ‘tapping’ it 😁

Great video and topic, it’s a good debate to be had. But I do want to mention my support of the flat cap look! My ‘her indoors’ is also a big fan. 😊

Really do love the Durstan Xmid / Zpacks Duplex, but the shipping costs as well the costs of the tent are just too expensive, can’t justify it. There is the other adage that you buy cheap you buy twice. However, my kit for camping is a mixture of both.

The cost of a well designed product is so much more than just labour and materials. Time & money has gone into the design, and it is only reasonable that this intellectual input should be rewarded. Also, consider your example of the X-Mid copy. That will only sell because also of the marketing effort which has been put in by Dan. To make a carbon copy of something without contributing to these vital part of the product production process is certainly morally questionable. Cheap items often appeal, but we can all stand back and ask ourselves - who has been exploited to make the item that cheap - be it a £50 tent or a £1 T-shirt.

I get why people buy the cheaper tents ,budget or occasionally camping etc, but for me when I’m going out camping, I want to know that the shelter I take with me is going to hold up to the elements, and not have poles break or stitching come away because of poor quality control, not that it couldn’t happen to an expensive tent but there’s probably more testing and thought gone into an original designed tent, like the xmid you mentioned or a hilleberg or terra nova etc, like you said all depends how often you’re camping and where you’re planning to take these shelters, atb Mick👍

Interesting topic, eloquently presented. Well done Paul 👍

When I was shooting air rifle in competition I used to use Falcon scopes, falcon is a British company but they don't make anything, they have their scopes made in china. I then discovered that I could buy the exact same scope direct from the manufacturer at a fraction of the cost of the falcon. The scope is exactly the same in every respect just hasn't got the falcon logo on it. The glass is superb as is the turrets and their action.

Also it's not just Chinese companies that rip off other products. Vango have launched a very similar tent to the Lanshan 2, albeit worse because it's smaller and heavier. MSR's PocketRocket Deluxe is clearly "inspired" by the Soto Windmaster. The burner heads are remarkably similar.

Completely agree with you Paul. I'm not too proud to admit that I can't afford to buy the better brands new, but I've kitted myself out with s/h top branded gear from eBay, fb marketplace etc, and they've served me well over the years. There's nowt wrong with good used gear.

On the whole I agree with what you say Paul, however I’ve been using a Trekology chair and sleeping mat for a while and they’re still going strong; I’ve also been using the Firemaple rip off Jet boil and it’s first class for half the price… horses for courses.

Without the big brands investing in pioneering R&D, developing next generation performance fabrics, there wouldn’t be anything to copy. I try to back the brands as much as possible, whether that’s equipment such as JetBoil and Trangia, or clothing such as ME or Montane.

👀 Nice vivos Paul, love my Forest trackers, took a bit of breaking in, particularly around the ankle but superb now. Hope you are enjoying them.

Terra Nova had an asymmetrical backpacking tent 20+ years ago the Solar Minor (not a trekking pole design, a single pole). I still have mine, I did a bike tour along the Wales coast line with it last summer.

When I was about 10 my parents bought my brother and me a Robert Saunders Backpacker S tent each and they performed amazingly for years. Was ultra light for the time and reliable. I actually still have it but not used for a long time. It started my love for quality gear. I’ve been married for 34 years and bought a Rab down jacket before that so around 36 years old and still have it and it still gets used and keeps me toasty warm. Point I’m making is buy a quality product and it will pay itself off with performance and longevity. 👌🏽👍🏼

Chinese Diesel heater is a good example…I think you bought one, and I own one. A huge price difference between the Chinese heater and the genuine item though

My third comment lol... some of the Chinese companies are actually really good. 3F UL Gear is kind of the Chinese Durston. It was started by outdoor enthusiasts in China, and the Lanshan tents are great. You reviewed one of their recent designs, which is a bit different so they're trying to innovate too. Then there's Trekology, as you say they've kind of ripped off the Helinox chair but they also have products like the UL80 which are unique. It's still the most comfortable I've used and it's been going strong for almost four years. Their pillows are super comfortable too, but mine burst. Their warranty support was amazing, they shipped me a new replacement quickly. It was a much better experience than I had dealing with Cascade Designs warranty claims for a Thermarest mat and MSR stove. I simply refuse to buy Cascade Designs products ever again after dealing with their awful Irish subsidiary. So I guess what I'm saying is China is a mixed bag like anywhere. Some companies are great, and some want to sell you junk with no support at all.

Well, the Durston tents are a modification of the Sierra Designs High Route tents ... So ... And if Western brands want to maximize their margins by making their gear in Asia, seeing copies made by the same sweatshops that grind out their products is a natural consequence of the process. Want to reduce this problem? Make gear in Western factories. (Hint: They can't, because they'd have much smaller profit margins.)

I live out of the US, the UK and the European Union. If I try to buy a -say- DCF single wall trekking pole tent which is around 700 bucks in the US will approximately cost me more than a grand considering shipment costs and import fees. If you suggest recreational and outdoor activities are only for who by chance live in the “WEST”, then you are right. If not either well deserved brands should optimalize their prices or we must direct to knock-offs. By the way companies like Outdoor Vitals offer reasonable deals for enthusiasts worldwide, they earn while we reach quality products. That’s a win-win.

Unfortunately to many people don’t like the ethics of “rip offs” especially when it effects cottage companies but then buy them anyway. Until the community stops providing a demand for these products individuals and companies will be loosing out to inferior manufacturers

Brilliant video....your presentation is so professional... Hope you're well.

Sierra designs also have a very similar tent with the high route 3000, granted it's slab sided and does have some differences but it's very similar. For me it depends on the product, when it comes to tents and bags I'd also go with the bigger brands, I don't want a tent that states 5000HH that then leaks in mild rain or a bag that's rated to 0* that I'm freezing in at 5*. I do however have a Trekology ul80 Matt that I love but once again, I wish I'd opted for a sea to summit or Nemo tensor as the R rating is much higher and better equipped for all conditions.

Love your vids Paul... I spent most of my working life in the outdoor trade so I have an understanding of how it all works. You mentioned how the big brands could cut their costs and yes they could by spending nothing on marketing, paying professional outdoor athletes and selling direct to the public. A large amount of the cost of a product can be taken up by those costs. Also without that marketing we probably wouldn't buy the product as we might not know about it and lets face it a lot of the outdoor community are suckers for a brand name. Ive been to china and i know that some factories who make products for the big brands with their logo used to then carry on the production line without the brand name for their own home market. Some of this stock will be reaching our shores these days. The end cost in a retail store has very little baring on the cost to produce a product. As for copies, well we used to call it parallel development back in the day 😂😂😂

Paul ur awesome call it like it is! Luv you ❤from Michigan

People will buy what they can afford. If the UK and International bodies keep allowing the sales of cheap Chinese knockoffs, then what can you do? Business is business. I will always buy the best equipment I can at the best price I can.

The issue is the throw away culture we’ve become a custom to. Get it cheaper, use it till it breaks then chuck it and get another one. That’s fine if it’s only a £20 pillow but when it’s still costing over £100+ for a tent then you’re better off spending the extra, even if it means waiting for another couple of pay packets. I don’t buy new gear very often but I try to make sure I get something that will last or will have a guarantee that’s worth it.

So, you have a few points there. I do have a cloud up 2. What a tent, especially for beginners or budgets. Im also about to pull the trigger on that bloody Nortent you showed us. Like you say, very, very different build quality, and pricing, and except for seriously bad weather, they both do the same thing. I do understand the way dan must feel. I've invented a type of heated clothing that nobody anywhere has thought of, it literally gets to 50°c in a -10°c environment(amongst other features). I backed out of trying to produce it because i cant afford the patent and it will 100% be reproduced in China... I'd already spent a fair amount building the prototypes and getting it safety certified. Its quite a frightening prospect to think you will be openly robbed and nobody can anything about it For now, i just have to make do with being one of the only people wearing one...

I'm as guilty as the next man as I have bought (and probably will again) Chinese copies. I done a similar comparison on the shnide Amoks. People have to realise there is a cost to research and development, quality control and building a reputation. I've long been calling for more cottage industries in the u.k as I think there is a market for it. Dutchware gear is a great example of what I'd love to see over here. Good well thought out vid Paul

I stopped buying stuff from china after I bought something for my sewing machine, 'genuine and authentic' only to find it wasn't compatible! As you said Paul, try and send to back lol!!!! Good video, thank you for all the sensible and entertaining stuff you do. Changing the subject, I think you would make a really good teacher.

On point. The only thing I would bring up is big brands copying other brands also. For example, the MSR Tindheim, which looks very much like a HIlleberg Nallo. It looks nothing like their traditional dome shape designs. Rip off. The only way you can protect yourself from this type of copying is to position yourself as a premium brand with premium materials (Hilleberg do this with their their Kerion fabric), and produce version improvements (v.1.0, v.1.1 with slight improvements). Really hard to achieve. But I know which brands i trust in the mountains.

Thank you Paul. I agree with you it stinks. I have a standing joke with a friend who tends to buy the knock off versions of the ones I buy. Though in the case of the Xmid2 we both have the real deal. I have a Hilleberg Rogen, he has a 3FUL Taiji, I have an Allak, he has a Naturehike Cloudpeak 2 etc. In every single case, he has always wished he had bought the original. He views them as a step on the ladder to getting the original model, fair enough, but you pay twice, and worse you reward the copiers. There is truth in some cases that a copy can be 70% as good but far less than that in price (like Hilleberg vs 3FUL for example @ like 20% the price) but which one do you want when a storm hits or even when things don't go as planned? Back to people like Dan Durston @durstongear, massive respect for the experience, thinking and huge effort he put into the Xmid design. It's my go to for summer (which here in New Zealand we are heading into). I'm taking it out this weekend in fact. Weather forecast, likely rain. Do I care, no.

Great àdvocacy for Dan. Those privileged enough to be able to afford the real thing (including myself where I can) should definitely buy it. Otherwise innovation, progression and advancement will die. It's also great for our own economy to support local businesses where we can.

Hey Paul have you tested out the oex tents, would love to see what you think about them 😊

Always support the original innovators. Blatant copying kills creativity and cottage industries. It is unethical and unsustainable to support cheap rip offs. The UK is a perfect example of what happens when you abandon your local industries.

The irony is that as soon as your video ended KZfaq took me straight into a Temu advert! It's hard to escape cheap Chinese products with the way our lives are these days. Imagine a world with no Amazon etc.

My first tent was an AliExpress special, it was a gateway, a way to try something new with minimal investment should I choose not to continue, well now I have 2 hammocks, DCF tarp, a Nemo dragonfly and a Hilleberg, so I would say they have their place.

Well said , but as KZfaqrs maybe as a whole you should think about what you are reviewing and what effect it will have on the market and especially small companies like Durston who has literally made the biggest change in tent design for ages ! Also your favourite Terranova is made in China 🤷‍♂️

I called my new labradoodle puppy Paul Messner because this channel means so much to me!

Talk about the pot calling the kettle here!! Paul you have brought us videos of more 'copies' than probably anyone on KZfaq over the year's,jeez i can't believe what im hearing here 😂

Hi Paul. Great conversation video. As i see it rip-offs are across the board. If it is to do with leisure then prices are inflated because people will pay for their pleasure. Human nature dictates that we become obsessed with equipment above what wild camping is really about, which is spending time in nature. I've wild camped for over 50 years and have learned that basic equipment is all i need. If a tent keeps out the wind & rain and is lightweight then its a good tent. If a stove boils water and cooks food its a good stove whether it takes 1 minute or 10. Cheap foreign 'knock-offs' are a consequence of over priced big brand products....there is a demand for cheaper gear. I do sympathize with small businesses that struggle to compete but that is commerce. My advice to those wild camping is to worry less about equipment snd enjoy your surroundings more. If we don't buy over priced gear the prices will fall.

I bought a knock-off stove that looks just like the Pocket Rocket, and so far it's been fine, and for a fraction of the cost. But for things like tents that are "mission critical," I'd much rather trust my butt and its safety to a name brand. When I was a scoutmaster a lot of the boys would get cheap knock-off gear and it failed often. I've seen pocketknives break, headlamps fail their first night out, tents rip, etc. I'm reminded of the quote from Terry Pratchett's "Men at Arms:" The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money. Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles. But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet. This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.

The big thing for me - and my line of work is similar to your old day job - is that we in the UK know that these copy goods and big brands are made in factories that the H&S and environmental standards may not be as rigorously enforced as they are here in the UK and other European countries. Is it sustainable in the long term? Well, it seems to be from a purely money perspective and us in the UK continuing to purchase these items I do think that some of the so-called top brands do over charge. Specialist gear I can understand - sort of. And I know that innovation, research, and development do cost. Or maybe they over charge knowing that within a couple of years sales will plummet as their designs and hard work are copied without credit or payment. Is it possible to but only UK/European manufactured gear? One issue is that there are very few factories in the UK that can produce goods in high quantities in a short period of time to meet the 'just in time' mentality retailers have and instant delivery we consumers demand. A difficult question and maybe on a future podcast you could invite people to be interviewed from the larger UK based outdoor gear brands to discuss this very issue?

For a time the U.S.A was the worst copyright breaker.

Really great to open the debate and important for us all to think this through for ourselves. Whilst I feel for the cottage manufacturers and often buy UK goods (speedster stoves etc), I'm also happy to supoort Chinese companies sometimes who are also employing people, some of whom may be close to the poverty line. Especially when they are bringing something new, or adapted to the market

Always enjoy the videos Paul. We must live close by i think as i know most of your filming locations 😂 see you on the trail one day 👍

Interesting again. I relaced a 20 year old eorohike tunnel tent with a MSR Hubba Hubba NX2. Pitched up in the middle of nowhere and 2 blokes cames over to inspect. One tripped over the guideline and the flysheet split from bottom to top. His mate came over and fell on the tent breaking the pole system. Both were 70 years old. Do we really get what we pay for

Another aspect to this debate is that smaller producers find it difficult to meet supply so its very hard to actually get the original. You can only buy whats available so may opt for a copy.

Having lost the majority of my business of engineering props for event companies through lock-down when a lot of others had a chance to jump on the band wagon and knock similar items out at silly prices, I feel for the likes of Durstan etc. But... Don't forget that sometimes someone will buy 'a rip-off' product, not knowing that it has been 'ripped-off' from another brand, often at a reduced price.

Brilliant thanks for highlighting this cheaper tent , I’m going to buy one .. I was going to buy the durston but now you have half the price brilliant , thanks buddie

Several years ago I was camping on the south west coast path whilst walking it and got stuck in a very windy and wet storm at St agnes head by morning the tent poles at one end of my msr hubba nx had broken in 2 places and consequently torn the fly sheet open. Needles to say that the tent was rendered useless so had to stay in St Ives for a couple of nights whilst my partner at the time sent me another tent from my collection 😊 . On completion of the walk I contacted msr by email and sent pictures and was pleased to get a response. They asked me to send the damaged part to be examined. I made it clear I was not blaming the tent or the workmanship that went into it I was just hopping They maybe able to help me by selling me the parts I needed to turn this mess back into the proud little tent it was before the storm. I was very happy when I received a parcel from them containing all the parts including a brand new fly completely free of charge. Try that with ur ally baba shit😊

I agree with everything you say, and it's sad when someone can copy such a unique design like Dan's tent in this example. But I'm not convinced that affects sale's figures quite as much as some people make out. I don't believe there are many people who would buy Dan's tent but choose the knock off instead. The vast majority of people buying the knock off couldn't afford or simply not willing to spend that kind of money on the original anyway. So I don't think the two areas of the market affect each other all that much

Well said! They copy the Trailstar too. It boils my blood a bit....I can't support these copies at att or at least very much try not too.... Enjoy trip with Sandy. Say hello I hope to camp with him next year 😊

I want one of those Durston tents.

Great video, it's certainly food for thought.

There's a difference between a cheap copy of something that's not patented, and something that is. In this case there is a patent for the Durston that needs respecting, although I think it's only applicable in the US.

There's a lot of camping gear snobbery in the wild camping/outdoors community not everyone can buy a £1000+ tent or cooking equipment/ sleeping systems that costs a fortune when you can buy cheaper.. a lot of people that watch your channel use budget gear and tune in for your reviews and adventures don't bite the hands that feed you.. it's great to have the option to get similar spec gear for a fraction of the price....

Yep your right Paul. But if it’s right it’s right. Just brought a knock off Soto stove it’s fantastic ! 🤷‍♂️ I feel bad but would I have brought a real Soto ? Probably not.

Bought a rab jacket recently online to replace my old one I got from go outdoors. It looks and feel legit but the loft and fill just doesn't seem quite right to me. Either rab are cutting corners or it's a very convincing knock off.

To be fair to the 'premium' brands, it is not just the design and labour costs. They often sell in shops and not directly to the consumer (as I suppose many chinese brands do through for example aliexpress), they have a customer service, they have warranties and repair services, quality control ect... All and all they just need a much bigger workforce for a consequently smaller market (because of the steeper price). So honestly I do not feel like most of those brand's are not that expensive considering those factors. But yeah... considering for example my Lanshan 2, it is hard to compete with that price, and because of that difference I still spent the little money I have on some of the cheaper aliexpress gear (which honestly have worked great).

As others say this is a tough one. Hilleberg clearly make extremely good good gear, but very few can afford or really require a £1000 tent (or in that region). So either they produce a cheaper version that isn't quite expedition quality or someone else does. Decathlon do a very good job of producing high quality gear at very competitive prices and generally ethically too. But being the largest sports store globally (I believe) they have economies of scale. I think if we can do a little research before buying something, then hopefully we will make the right decisions. Interesting topic Paul.

I agree with you about the design theft. I also agree that Asia has very skilled workers. If I was the tent designer, I would have got it made in China.

I do agree Paul. It stinks. Part of the issue is based in international trade and part in international politics, and mostly in human nature. We're always looking for a deal. That said, I really think it all depends on what you're buying. If you want a Duston Xmid, then save up the money and buy it, don't buy some obvious knockoff. But, when it comes to things like Ti cups/pots, I'm not sure it really matters who you buy it from. Quite a bit of the problem also lies in the fact that only certain factories are being used, and standard practice (at least in China) is to produce the amount of product ordered by the brand, and then run-off extra to rebrand and sell. Sometimes what you're getting is absolutely no different from what the big name is selling because it's merely an extended run of whatever was made. It's a thorny issue indeed.

Pretty much agree with everything you’ve said here. I think Dan would have more to worry about if they’d copied the material as well, I can’t see that knockoff tent working as well once it’s wet. I’ve bought direct from China and had good and bad experiences. The good was LiPo batteries for use in RC planes, they were identical in every way (came out same factory) to some pretty expensive branded ones for a quarter of the price. I’ve also bought some gloves that were branded the same as some very expensive ones, but I suspect were actually fished out the reject bin and sold on eBay. The prices of some branded gear is outrageous, fleeces were a good example of this. I’ve bought big name branded stuff all my life but recently dipped my toe in some cheaper less fashionable bits, and I won’t be going back to the big names. I’ll happily pay a premium for stuff that’s made here and support an industry, but not when all they do is repackage it and jack the price.

The premium tents are not being undercut by the imported knock offs. It's the bottom end of the market that is more effected by the cheaper stuff.

Another great video Paul with a lot of very relevant points . I don't think Danny Durston will be too bothered by this crap the Chinese are selling as everyone who looks at it will research the original is it based on . I am guilty of giving Andy some stick about his video but I am still waiting for a reply regarding his criticism that the magnetic door tags are not fit for purpose - I don't think this is valid if you have only pitched this on the local cricket pitch - I have 30 nights in my Durston in all weathers and it hasn't failed me yet !! One last point - can you send me the Ali Express link for your new hat ???!!!!!

When the kids were kids, I couldn't afford Rab, or Wild Country so I bought what I could afford. Not all of it was rubbish, but some of it was. Now the kids have flown the koop I can push the boat out and buy the good gear. I can also get out and use it a bit more often. It's not only the materials and labour costs that drive up the price of the premium brands but also the green/ethical policies they adhere to. It all adds to the operating cost of the business, whereas in China.......

You are looking trimmer Paul. Big brands are greedy. Low cost labour, high retail prices. If they were more aware the problem of rip offs wouldn’t be such a problem

I say good for you for saying it Mike.

This day and age, brands charge too much, way too much, and with kids wanting everything and trying to keep up with their friends most of us can’t afford to pay to prices when there are more important bills to pay first. That’s just my opinion.

Couldn't agree more Paul. I lived with a girl from Hong Kong a few years ago and she wouldn't touch anything if it had a "made in china" label.

I like quality gear, but a lot of that quality gear is over priced and a lot of that overpriced gear is not really good quality. I will be buying the X-mid very soon for my spring summer tent

Lots of fair points Paul, and am inclined to agree with you, especially concerning so-called high end products made for peanuts in SE Asia. However, I think it's important to both show these 'knock-off' products and to properly emphasise the serious lack of quality in comparison to the original design. Hopefully Dan will only gain from the exposure to this IP theft, and his sales will improve. Atb 👍

Cách đây 3 năm tôi đã xem video của paul, bây giờ ông vẫn đi du lịch bụi 😂😢😅

I would not trust some of the Chinese products available in some of the UK conditions. However I do agree that the prices should come down if the branded companies want to compete or tempt customers to spend with them. Personally I don't have a problem with second hand but that's me. Cheers Paul

I had a mountain hardwear ghost whisperer 2. £280 Jacket that wasn't as good as £30 decathlon version

when you buy a durston, you can be sure of two things over the cheap one. it will be the highest quality, and its resale value will hold for decades to come. i'd love to design a few tents, i have this notion that you could design a tent to be able to peg it out for high winds, lowering it, or peg it out for light winds and loads of space inside.

AGREE PAUL❤ But what gets me if an inferior fake dangerous gas boiler or child's toy etc. Gets intercepted by customs its destroyed and importers are prosecuted ?

It's a tricky one! Hopefully the cheaper knock offs act as a gateway drug and once they (fairly quickly) fail, the real deal is on the cards. Love my lanshan, not sure if it's a knock off of anything but it seems grand, and in that case I think it allows the manufacturers who are otherwise marked up for distribution to get a good product to market for a fair price.

Does anyone recall the fuss Apple made over the smart phone?? They said they invented it and everything anyone else in the World made was a copy. I believe the response to that was something along the lines of 'You can't patent an oblong' Tents come in either pole supported/freestanding designs and of that you can either go hooped or geodesic design. Everything is a copy of everything else ultimately, materials and build quality matter the most. Buy what you can afford is my rule. My 30 year old Trangia is still serving me well, my Lanshan 2 Pro seems to be a well made bit of kit but only time will tell on that one. Let's not forget that most of these manufacturers use fabrics from the same suppliers, they are just stitched together elsewhere. You can buy a cheap 200 quid mountain bike and a 10,000 quid bike and I guarantee you the frames were made in the same factory as ALL of the aluminium frames are made in SE Asia (apart from Trek and some very small brands) Not many of these brands make their own fabrics, but they certainly sell them at different mark ups !

Exactly some of the high branded labels still use cheap labour, designers inculded. We are all a part of the situation whether we like it or not.

For decades expensive brands have exported their manufacturing to Asia and elsewhere to take advantage of cheap labour and lower or no labour laws etc. These countries have gained expertise in manufacturing these products and it was only a matter of time before they started to use this knowledge to manufacture their own products directly to market. Ultimately most consumers buy because of price, that's why companies outsource manufacturing, because it's what customers want. Some products are blatant ripoffs, yes, some are inferior, yes... But some are actually very high quality because they have the expertise gained from working with major brands. I do get how frustrating it must be for smaller companies and one-man bands, competing against companies that can hugely undercut you by copying your ideas must be depressing.

I was straight on Temu after I saw Andys vid the other day 😂😂😂 they haven't got them yet but it'll only be a matter of time, I agree with everything you said though, feel sorry for Andy getting so much stick for literally just showing people what's out there, can't remember the hilliberg club kicking off when nature hike ripped off there tent 😕

Thank you for the soap box food for thought. Well said. I waited six months until I had more money saved to get the Durstan. I think the biggest driver is the instant culture wanting something now rather than saving a little longer and buying that which truly deserves to be bought.

Fully agree Paul.

I try to buy local as much as I can. And I try desperately to avoid Chinese crap-even though they are always the top choices on Amazon! I agree that consumers are in a pickle, especially those of us on tight budgets, but we all need to keep trying. The major brands need to listen, too, as I would rather support them than China-but there isn’t often a product line for my budget. Why don’t we work together and keep good brands going AND consumers wallets happy, too? Some brands do have, “good, better, best,” options. Maybe more companies can do that? I hope they are listening, Paul. Thank you as always.

The tent in Andy's video looked crap to me. It looked cheaper, flimsier, and was clearly harder to pitch. Even though, superficially, it looks like an X-mid it clearly isn't anything like one. In fact, it didn't even seem to have the X-mid geometry inside, but it was hard to tell. I think Dan's business is safe for now. I plan on replacing my Lanshan 2 with an X-Mid 2p soon and that cheap knock off won't be tempting me away from a genuine X-Mid.