Sad when you know the outcome ahead of time, but even more sad and shocking when you hear it and didn't know. I didn't see fatal until the end! Sad, sad, sad. Praying for the deceased loved ones' and I hope the pilot felt okay in the end, knowing he died doing what he loved. You never know when your time is up, none of us is promised a tomorrow let alone next 5 minutes with the billion ways to die. I almost died the other night when I was hit by an elderly man on my e-bike and the driver didn't even help me up out of the roadway or exit his SUV to check on me, he didn't even crack his window to ask me if I was okay, I had forgotten my cell phone and nobody would call 911 and nobody helped me, so the man whose about 85 years old tries to flee the scene and I got more injured blocking his escape route and yelling at the top of my lungs for anyone to help and or call 911, call the Police he hit me on my bicycle and he's fleeing, but long story short he hit me off my bike and I and said bike got trapped between the ground and his car/underneath of the front of his car. So his hood made contact with my right shoulder and I landed on my left side and was trapped between the e-bike that weighs 170lbs and the 4000lbs vehicle in the middle of Ortega Highway/Del Obispo where cars do 50-60mph all day long, and that is the roadway where I landed and could've been ran over a secondary time due to traffic. Thankfully I am alive, the old man hopefully will never drive again and hopefully in the end I get what I deserve for missing work, missing family events and all of the pain and suffering I am going through now. Dr's say I have a few months of physical therapy and tests/scans, etc.,,etc.! So pray for me if you are a believer, as I also have another health problem unrelated and it's fatal and won't get better, but I am okay with my fate. I just hope I get to die in peace or at least not suffering for too long. You never know though, when your time has come is or is about to come, it always comes like a thief in the night. Expect the unexpected and always maintain you spiritual and emotional fitness, so if you do end up in a spot like this pilot or many other's like myself, you better be right with God and family, don't wait until it's too late to patch up broken relationships, forgiveness, etc., etc.! Do it now~ so you'll be good if this ever comes your way...remember this video or what I've said. Nobody wants to die with regrets or unfinished business! So always tell those you love that they matter to you!

Heartily sad for them. My Deepest Condolences to all.

RIP

So sad. Fly high captain. Thoughts are with family and friends.

RIP, ATC tried his best.

This would be a great learning clip for future ATC. What you should do, and a question about what else one could do.

NY center 132.750

Could only hope I had that controller in an emergency. Condolences to pilot and family. Hands out to the ATC'ers

Such a great job by the Atc...

He's been a controller for a long time. I hear his voice all the time on NY. And yes, he is very good.

What was the weather like at his point of departure?

@@user-el2fd2ll1i it was rainy and foggy that day

I flew this plane regularly from there, hits different when it’s close to home. Thanks for your great work up @cgf tower, always enjoy working with you guys.

One of my guys was working on 684 when this happened. The Hasidic community once they learned it was one of them on sent so many resources

Such a kind and good man who gave so much to our Cleveland area.

Tbf I think they often lose radar contact simply when altitude goes too low (somewhere under 1000 ft or thereabouts) and not necessarily as a direct consequence of ground impact. Presumably it depends on the range to the aircraft and the terrain and so forth. But anyway, all my nitpicking aside, it’s often one of the last chilling things you hear in these crash situations, so I totally get you. Feels bad man.

Its making me teary eyed. ATC your vectors and comms were 5x5

@@pootthatbak2578 I agree. Sad outcome, but good job controller. Definately 5X5.

Utterly professional ATC. Thank you for all you do for GA pilots. ❤

ATC here. After an event like this in the US we are able to take up to about 5 weeks off to receive mental health counseling with no loss of pay.

@@Jmjbs 5 weeks off work because somebody died in an auto accident? That's rediculous! I am a firefighter and I've seen just about every kind of death. Get done, go back to work. I'm in a very rural area, I can't even imagine what some of those big city fire-EMS-police-hospitals-coroners deal with! People are so out of touch with reality these days. They can't even deal with the most basic part of life. Death.

With you on that. I’ve only been in hard imc once and I kept thinking “if my engine fails, we’re gone”. Luckily that didn’t happen……

One month out from IR ride and the more time I get in the clouds the more respect I have for how quickly unforgiving a situation can get. Horrific to listen to the audio, RIP to all aboard.

@@crazy4gta1 I am about to go on my IR CR and I don't think I ever want to be in that position. I'm sticking to day time VFR only.

Studying for the IR written now. Doubt I'll ever choose to fly in hard IFR. Just want to get through for VFR on top to break out of overcast skies on long trips and get back to VFR.

@@seanmurphy9632 Understanding weather is paramount, and that it can change quickly. Always give yourself an option, on getting back to better weather. I know what you mean about on top, then through clouds to a high ceiling and good visibility. BUT, that doesn’t always work out, so you need to be ready and proficient to break out at 300 and 1/2-on localizer and on glide path. This especially, if the shit hits the fan; ie engine troubles. If you can’t do the above, set your personal minimums to special VFR or above. Dave, 28,000 accident free hours😉

Where you got the info that the passenger was texting good byes ?

@@killadocg23 multiple news stories

@@killadocg23 They had a big article about just that in the Daily Mail about a week ago.

Not impossible. But definitely not easy. Pilot was clearly disoriented and probably very tense due to the nature of the emergency in IMC. This is why it’s best to practice these situations in a realistic way, flying ILS to unfamiliar airports. Now had he been out in the middle of nowhere with no precision approaches in 20 mile radius, 300 ft bases, say only a nearby NDB, that would beyond difficult and stressful, and I would say beyond the average GA pilot’s proficiency level.

That make a whole lot of sense since the pilot can get tunnel vision from the adrenaline. Some can take it. Sometimes, the person can tolerate, but, other time, it just him/her and only him/her. While listening to the pilot, I sense that he was having tunnel vision. a. he reported the serious malfunction b. he used emergency too sparingly c. he delayed communication. But, still, he is a brave pilot and should earn his wing among the sky.

What a horrible call to get! I don't know what I would do if I got a call like that! 😢💜🙏

@@juliemanarin4127 Talking to a loved one while they crash and die. Oh My God

If your plane can't climb, can't accelerate, and/or isn't responding properly to throttle inputs, it _IS_ an emergency! How soon you _recognize_ that may well determine whether you survive.

Yeah, one of the sad lessons from this is engine troubleshooting is best done on the ground. The time he wasted wondering why his plane was unable to climb was time he desperately needed to get it on the ground.

That's what this controller needs to hear right now! Me too!

Same. The pilot would have made it if he wasn’t so far behind in the cockpit. My guess is auditory exclusion was occurring. The pilot had plenty of altitude to reprogram his gps and set up an emergency approach but just didn’t know how to do it fast enough. By then it was too late and he was flying blind while also disregarding the instructions.

I am so sorry for your loss.

I am so sorry.

My condolences

Considering he was convicted of pedo activity, not sure he's such a nice guy.

Dang it Man, sounds like the world loss some good people, so sorry😢

I'm an aviation enthusiast who wants to get a PPL one day, what lessons could be learned from this, I couldn't see what the pilot did wrong here ? Didn't estimate if he couldn't make it to the runway or not ? If anyone can offer any insight that would be great, thanks.

@@dzgeek1078 following

@@dzgeek1078 divert earlier. Not when it's already too late. Don't have the normal climb power? Get that airplane to the ground as quickly as possible

@@dzgeek1078 single engine Piston, at night, low IFR, low visibility, close to minimums for every approach in the New York area for a Cat B aircraft. The decision starts on the ground. I always say ‘If my engine fails climbing to cruise, can I easily get back into the airport with these IFR Conditions?’ Risk management decision making played a key role in this flight. Also the decision to not declare an emergency immediately and divert played a factor. There is so much to digest here and it’s not anyone’s place to Monday morning QB it. That’s what the NTSB is there for.

@@Gruner1994 thanks for your reply

That guy was really on top of things. People like him are freaking awesome. Laser-focused when problems come up, and really looking out for the people around them. While I've never had anyone's lives possibly depending on me like this, I know what it feels like to take that specific kind of ownership over a situation to help someone, and it's genuine empathy that drives it. And what guides it-with this level of competence is almost always a commitment to strong values and high personal standards. This ATC guy is one of the people who makes the civilized world what it is-one if the real builders of society.

.... BEST COMMENT....

Even so it went downhill fast. I wonder if ils for 34 was available and if it was worth a try vs going around without oil pressure

Either that or not being vectored above the airport, but trying the approach joining in from the west, maybe that could’ve saved them enough time to reach the airport. We will never know sadly

Good point, but it's also a good idea to level off and do a quick check and try to figure things out which is what he did, maybe could have do it sooner.

This works best when you hv many hours on type. Not sure this was the case. It could take a bit longer to realize. Did i see the engine monitor hidden away far from the pilot ? That could be a factor. Also, i really feel the FAA is doing a disservice by keeping things antiquated. We are 2023 this airplane should hv a 'follow the boxes' avionics available at no more cost. Same issue killed Kobe.

Lawrence..does it sound like the pilot should have declared a few minutes sooner? Not climbing seemed to indicate major issues

@@pootthatbak2578 you can never go wrong with declaring an emergency as a precaution and turning to the airport immediately to land. But also, none of us saw what this pilot saw and experienced so it’s easy to say that after the fact. RIP.

@@pootthatbak2578 it could also be a "dumb" mistake, or something else that could be rectified in-flight. It sounded like he chose to go ahead and level off so he could investigate, and pretty promptly came back with it being a dead cylinder. We'll never know why he chose not to declare an emergency then, but I don't think it would've changed the outcome anyway. It does seem strange that he waited until 6000 feet to start investigating, although I don't know what his power/rate of climb was like before then of course.

Yes...both excellent...so very sad

I disagree. This is not being insensitive, but the pilot underestimated partial engine failure, which especially in these meteorological condition would be immediate landing for me, no hesitation. This could have been prevented if he would not ignore engine failure.

i'm still trying to find the lesson in this. Yes, declare emergency sooner, but this wasn't a case of totally neglecting to declare an emergency, and it isn't clear if declaring sooner could have made a difference. Another thing could be planning ahead and holding personal minimums for enroute airports, but this seems like one of those cases where they did almost everything they could and just got unlucky, and that makes it incredible scary.

That's a great point about GA pilots declaring emergency. That hesitancy almost cost me dearly but I got lucky. In 2015, I was flying a Cherokee 160 west from Long Island, NY to the Hudson/Statue of Liberty. As I passed abeam JFK under Bravo (

@@adityanair5613 not necessarily saying that the pilot didn’t declare an emergency early enough, more so that there are pilots that might feel hesitant to declare an emergency because they think it might not be that serious and that the situation might just work itself out. Every situation is obviously different, but combine low IFR conditions with an airplane that’s not handling the way it’s supposed to, and things can get out of hand real quick. I think everyone here did the best they could in this horrible situation, and had the clouds been only 500 ft higher, they might’ve been able to get it down on the runway.

@@EricOrange99 I’m glad it worked out for you, and this is how we usually learn, from experience. ATC will always go above and beyond to make sure an emergency gets all the possible help they can get, and assist in any way possible.

He'll be filing that paperwork in heaven now

Sometimes you do everything right and it ends in death. Others have done everything wrong and never even damaged their plane. You never know. As 19MT said, he was doing the best he could.

ATC Knows, i freaked when the pilot said he would work it out..im worried he overshot a bit, near final and turned too steep, lost altitude because of incorrect rudder

That's what I thought. Is there some penalty for declaring an emergency if things turn out okay? Why did he hesitate to declare?

No there’s not.

@@stevenbeach748 Maybe some questions on the phone, forms to fill out. It is not to be taken lightly. But in cases such as this, declare an emergency. 19MT also put out a Mayday Mayday Mayday.

@@MrTruckerf forms and phone calls are not a penalty.

Many years since I last heard that "AirAmerica" call sign!

Thank you for sharing. It is not that people do not care; they are just swamped by what this world throws at them. Keep your memories strong. Blessings from Australia.

Not a current pilot so forgive my ignorance. By saying your G1000 panels do you mean it takes just a few seconds to change plans and program in a new airport/route? It sure seems like if he had a few more minutes he could have made it…

@@Adam20231 That is exactly what I am saying. In addition to being able to get vectors to final, with the G1000s synthetic vision, the lack of visibility wouldn’t have been as much of a factor. I hate to sound like a commercial but modern avionics are a game changer. They do increase safety. I shudder to think of the work load that pilot was dealing with in his final moments. The controller was doing an amazing job trying his very best to get him lined up verbally but with the delay between radio and radar, with the poor weather and engine problems, his chance for survival was really low. With better avionics this situation might have turned out very different.

I doubt any pilot today doesn't have access to a gps, even handheld or ipad. That plus tuning ILS frequency and turning to intercept should have taken less than 2 min.

@@Shadow__133 It’s not just having the ability to quickly dial up the ILS freq that is the difference maker, it’s the synthetic view systems in modern avionics like the G1000 that makes things safer. It takes the workload off the pilot so they can just fly the airplane.

@@SuperTrb0 Sure, but you can have all that and more with many apps on an ipad or even a phone. Technically not legal, but does exactly the same. And I know very few people that fly GA without one nowadays. I never needed or used synthetic vision for anything, despite having it on G1000. The top down view would be enough in this case, he collided with the ground, not a mountain.

I couldn't agree more. Maybe for every talking-head blowhard on cable news we could celebrate 10 people who show up, do their job with dedication and honor, and go home to their families. I think we'd all be happier.

You could tell the controller was trying to do just that, but the pilot just kept going.

@@TinkSalsa -- After a few critical minutes of very passive attention to the lack of engine performance, everyone went into their A-game. I'm just saying it's better to invoke the A-game as early as possible when there's any kind of performance issue in a single engine aircraft. No need to notice and think about it, or troubleshoot.. In flying, every minute is critical, and in this case way too many minutes were lost before everyone got into their A-game. No offense to the pilots or controller, but we have to learn from each accident.

Yep. Really can't take any chances with single engines. It can go bad before you can do anything about the situation.

@@pdquestions7673 agreed. I am more referencing how the controller offered to redirect the pilot back to the airport and was asking about him declaring an emergency at multiple points before thr pilot took those steps.

@@TinkSalsa -- this was after the pilot reported being puzzled with the engine's lack of performance. Sadly, it looks like the pilot noticed performance issues early in the climb, even before asking to stop the climb. Instead of asking to stop the climb (which shows he wasn't wiling to fully communicate his situation at first, and not being aggressive about his situation), he should already have reported engine trouble and requested vectors to the nearest runway. Critical lack of urgency. Yes, it sucks that he was flying from JFK, but he really had to ask for priority vectors right away. Without even loading an approach, the controllers could have basically vectored him down to final at JFK.

I live 3 miles from the airport and that night around 5:17 it was so foggy you could cut it with a knife with heavy rain I remember it clearly. Such a shame

Ah yes, because the value of a human life is determined by how many people a person knows. How sad. That explains why immigrants are treated so badly in this country.

@@ranonampangom2185 thats a pitiful comment... to try to bring political point-scoring into a tragedy like this is beyond sick...for shame... 😒

Exactly. Why takeoff and accept that risk?

@@cessna177flyer3 I mean, I'm sure they didn't plan on an engine failure but you must REALLY need to get where you're going to consider flying with weather minimums that low.

I live near jfk.. cannot tell you how bad the weather was on this night.. zero visibility fog brutally low clouds.. not the night for this problem sadly.. rip.. atc was amazing

@@jrod_pilot_miami i am telling you right now as someone related to the passenger, they really did NOT need to get back home that quickly. On the way there, yes they did because they were flying to a funeral and jewish funerals happen very quickly after death so they needed to be there quickly, but on the way back there was zero reason why they couldn't have taken a commercial flight or delayed flying back. Idk their circumstances though, maybe the plane was rented and needed to be returned that day, or something else. Either way whats done is done. May their memories be a blessing.

Agree. Engine was showing problems several minutes before oil pressure was lost.

ILS descent starts 5 miles out so with an engine still running and the pilot having turned too far south the controller had him on a downwind out to 5 miles to turn around, when he realized the engine was going the controller vectored him straight to the field. another 500ft or so of altitude when this all started and he'd have made it. so sad

“Everything they could”? Well, they decided to takeoff into 300' overcast at night. Those are two risks I'm not willing to take. I would have waited a few hours until morning and flown home in better weather and in daylight. Second, and we'll have to wait until the NTSB releases the final report, but to me the engine problem began around 3000 feet when they couldn't climb. Had he declared an emergency then (and not waited several more minutes until oil pressure was lost) and proceeded straight to the nearest airport, the outcome may have been different, but it's too early to make a definitive proclamation like "everyone did everything they could".

I found myself doing the same... 😖

Well, they decided to takeoff into 300’ overcast at night. Those are two risks I’m not willing to take. I would have waited a few hours until morning and flown home in better weather and in daylight. Second, and we’ll have to wait until the NTSB releases the final report , but to me the engine problem began around 3000 feet when they couldn’t climb. Had he declared an emergency then (and not waited several more minutes until oil pressure was lost) and proceeded straight to the nearest airport, the outcome may have been different, but it’s too early to make a definitive proclamation like “they did all they could”.

@@cessna177flyer3 Ok let me rephrase.... Everything the ATC could have done was given the delayed timing of things. While I agree with you, I also don't care to discuss semantics involving the death of a few unfortunate people in the air, because at the end of the day that's what matters.

@@MrMegaMario64 agree re: ATC. And yes, perhaps it is too soon to be discussing nuance while we mourn our pilot brother.

Yeah it makes me wonder wether he had a moving map display of any kind... Looked a little lost for a while there.... So sad

Not sure he was accounting for enough of the altitude loss that comes with the turns.... It also seems like he may have otherwise (or also) been trying to bleed off some altitude before he was on final, as not to overshoot. ...but I feel like, at least if it's a somewhat long or commercial-sized runway, I'd want to just keep all the altitude I could there and as soon as I'm lined up, I'd either just do a few s curves, or maybe even just dive into the last part to gain some airspeed as I broke the clouds so If I wasn't exactly where I needed to be, I'd have the speed to do whatever maneuvering may be required within that 300 feet of altitude Id get. I am no professional though, that's just what I, as a non-pilot simulator junkie would do after seeing this. I would, however love to hear what an actual professional might do differently having seen this play out...

oddly enough, I've been on BOTH sides of that coin. old man now despite heart attack while in atc at 45. 78 now. everyone made it though so never have had to carry that one for life.