"[Thorne] wasn't technically a gangster, he was a prominent politician" In other words, no changes needed.

"The brighter the picture, the darker the negative" (Rupert Thorne, 1992).

John Vernon was *flawless* in this role. Definitely made Thorne memorable even to a young kid who only cared about the flashy costumed bad guys.

As an Italian American myself, stuff like that never bothered me. The mafia is a colorful, if brutal part of our history.

"I won't kill your family. I'll kill you." **Is** a type of thieves honor. For Thornes case- as far as you can throw honor. Still...It is a type of agreement. "I won't touch your family, you don't touch mine, we just try to kill eachother."

He wasn't a gangster he was a politian.... So he WAS actually a gangster.

Never realized Thorne had such a complex back story.

It's Never to Late is easly one of the most underrated episodes of BTAS, I especially love that Batman is actually trying to help and reform Stromwell.

Rupert Thorne is basically the manifestation of all the corruption in Gotham. There’s no low he wouldn’t go. While the corrupt politician angle does work in the comics, I really enjoy his portrayal as a gangster in BTAS more. It fits too well. In a way, he’s Batman’s true antithesis: He’s selfish, cruel, cowardly, and manipulative in contrast to Batman’s selfless and bold nature. Though then again, many of the foes Batman fights, especially in BTAS, are antithetical to him in some way.

Speaking of Roland Dagget, I find it strange how he was apparently based on Norman Osborn of all characters. It's especially strange seeing as how he has no analogue to the Goblin form. Black Spider is a Batman rogue and they easily could have used him in a Dagget story to make like, a dark parody or revenge story, but didn't.

Probably the introduction to the concept of the Mafia for a lot of kids. There was the Big Boss in COPS, but he was more comedic. Thorne is hardly ever played for laughs. I sometimes hear that a lot of the time The Penguin is portrayed as the 'Boss Tweed' of Gotham but original comics Thorne seems much closer to that interpretation. Interesting how both he and Stromwell have a good brother who is damaged by their 'legitimate business', but Matthew can't possibly convince Rupert to ever change his ways- it's all he can do to escape from that life himself. Never Too Late also gives us a closer look at the moral gymnastics people like this perform in order to justify what they do.

Batman is super famous for his costumed supervillains, but the animated series really made some great completely normal human villains and Thorne was probably my favorite. He was so intimidating without ever having a gimmick or engaging in any violence personally.

Good analysis. I agree that BTAS did well working around the Mafia restriction with Thorne. However, as reprehensible as he was, I found Roland Daggett to be even more villainous.

For a town with no official mafia, WB's Gotham certainly had an abundance of trench-coated hoods wielding Tommy guns. (Although you've reminded me that WB-Gotham also had Prohibition, so I guess that makes sense.) I suppose that _broadcasting standards_ didn't classify brandishing a Tommy as an _imitable act._ Presumably, they recognized that whilst there's an abundance of pistols lying in wait for America's small children to accidentally get their little mitts on, those same Yankee tots would already be so cultured - when it came to firearms - that they'd never mistake a Colt for a Chicago typewriter. But even though the men in suits should have bored my younger self senseless, I really enjoyed it when Thorne was the nemesis. I realized that it was an opportunity for Batman to go after a deeper form of evil. One more likely to exist in my world than his usual colourful crazies, with their tragic back-stories. Thorne and Daggett were the villains with whom Batman was playing the long chess match. Oh, he'd never win - or else the series would be instantly over - but it was with them that he'd have his most consequential contests.

Never too late is one of my favourite BTAS episodes. The scene with Stromwell and his brother brought me to tears when I watched it the first time. The animation, acting, and storytelling were all on point. John Vernon was fantastic as Thorne and a good supoorting antagonist for the show.

I enjoyed thorne. Vernon voiced him flawlessly and it was good to see someone other than a costumed villain get shine

Since Batman: TAS first aired on Fox Kids, I can see how the gangsters in Spiderman: TAS were affected by the censors, such as Kingpin, Silvermane, Hammerhead, and Tombstone.

I wish we got more Rupert Thorne in modern day stuff. Like, I barely see ANYTHING on him.

Looking back at this great series now, as an adult, it really amazes me how network censorship really made the writers and artists get creative in what stories and visuals could make the final cut. I found it somewhat ironic that the very year BTAS premiered, American schools were preparing to celebrate the 500th anniversary of Christopher Columbus' exploration to the New World. I bring this up primarily to point out the fun irony of depicting Mafia stereotypes on an animated series. Considering that working class Italians wouldn't appreciate having a mob figure on TV with a last name ending in a vowel, you can bet a fictional villan will end up having a generic, anglosized last name.❤

8:58 I feel like Matthew treating Rupert's heart condition is the DCAU version of Thomas Wayne saving Carmine Falcone's life in The Long Halloween.

I always thought Thorne's absence in TNBA was intentional. With the show going into the more fantastical side of Batman (ex: Batman could have a kid like Tim Drake as Robin, he dealt with demons, genetic altered animals and weird cat cults), Thorne's absence could fit this, representing how Gotham has changed from what it was in BTAS and the mobsters villains like Thorne were fully replaced by villains like the Joker, Mad Hatter and the other Arkham Inmates. The only mobster who remais is the Penguin, who is more willing to work with the villains.

It's weird that they weren't allowed to use the mafia but they could do an episode about drugs.

As a kid, I knew what Rupert Thorne represented! Take it for my parents showing me The Godfather, Goodfellas, and Scarface at a young age... The man is scum. Sure we also take issue with slime like Roland Daggett, but this guys no better! I don't know if it's ever happened in a comic, or left on the writers desk...but I hope someone puts Thorne away for good! Maybe even The Judge; as a cool, twisted kind of fate!!!!😂

Hopefully we got to see the Romans, the Maroni, and more Mafia Characters in the Batman: Caped Crusader.

I only recently found out it was John Vernon's voice then suddenly it was obvious- wonder if playing a villain with implied mob ties in Animal House got him this role (though to be fair, every character in Animal House is a villain really, including the heroes)

while this isnt related to BtAS, in the reboot series The Batman, Rupert Thorn had a small role in the first episode and had a redesign that I didn't think much of at first until years later after becoming more familiar with BtAS itself (I was only 6 when BtAS first aired and most episodes I missed for the most part due to school). For those curious in the first episode of The Batman, the intro scene with Batman taking out the group of mobsters who were hiding from Batman featured a guy that vaugely resembled an elvis impersonator, and he was addressed as "Thorn", which I realized then that was ment to be Rupert Thorn. The guy had the waist size to justify the name, and he was also cowardly as the BtAS version when Batman silently walked up to him to apprehend him as he was desperate to try to bribe Batman to let him go.

I find it so funny how they couldn't just call them the mafia, cause as a kid watching and re-watching re-runs, it was pretty clear that's what they were. Part of me imagines they went with Thorne since a heavy-set crime lord would have shades of Kingpin/Wilson Fisk. Though I guess Fisk isn't the first of the type either.

It's sad Rupert Thorne doesn't get used as much as Falcone or Maroni, but i think he has a lot of potential if he gets used again. Man a lot of Batman's rogue's gets undervalued.

I always wondered what connections Rupert Thorne had to Maxie Zeus. Rival, Cohort, Personal smuggler? Maxie doesn’t show up til after Thorne is put on the back-foot, so was he a rival who was taking advantage of the power vacuum? Was working for Thorns what cracked Zeus? So many questions about BTAS’s criminal food-chain, and they all revolve around Thorne’s influence.

It's pretty curious that Thorne completely disappeared after BTAS ended, but he later came back in the "Mysterynof Batwoman" film. It was a surprise, to be sure, but a welcome one

I dont mean to change focus but I love two face's twin thugs. just such a cool detail

Also, have you done Maxie Zeus yet? He only had one episode, but he was an example of how a person in high authority can go insane with no accountability and enablers around him.

Wait. Didn't the Phantasm killed him via rounding him into a dug-up grave and then collapsed a statue ultimately crushing him?

Well, since we're gearing towards the subject of Roland Daggett, I hope you give a shot-out to Robert Moses. Let's just say his real world impact on slum clearance could have been the model for Daggett's tactics in APPOINTMENT IN CRIME ALLEY...❤

The comparisons between Thorne and Stromwell's look to Marlon Brandon in The Godfather is also interesting since the character of Vito Corleone was the inspiration for another Batman mobster villain: Carmine Falcone.

Rupert Thorne was the perfect gangster for the series. He's everything you could want in a villain, corrupt, egotistical, maniacal, cunning, scheming, manipulate, sleazy, controlling, paranoid, cowardly and even murderous.

I never even heard about Rupert Thorne until the Batman The Animated Series, but since then, I actually really like this character, how he can't really do anything by himself, he just has control. I like things like that in the hero comics because it shows that not everyone has to have powers or whatever else to be a big deal. People like Two-Face, Penguin, Rupert Thorne, the mafia Falcone, and Maronie, they are just regular degular humans with no powers, and they still have relevance and control over the city through money, influence, connections, intimation, and members/forces. I also really like how Rupert Thorne can not fight himself because it makes him different from characters like Kingpin, Penguin because even though Penguin is not a physical threat he has his umbrella, Two-Face who actually can run hands with Batman and has some good shot accuracy because he received training from Deathstroke or whatever, and other people like that, because it sets Thorne apart.

If I’m not mistaken, Thorne attempts to run for Mayor briefly in Batman: The Adventures Continue correct? Kinda funny how I’m BTAS it’s reversed. In the comics he’s a corrupt politician who is eventually outed as a criminal, but in BTAS he’s a blatant criminal who attempts to get into politics.

He's basically the infamous "Kingfish" Huey P Long in animated form.

R. Thorne is one of my favorite villains in Batman TAS. He is one of those villains that kept it a bit grounded and allowed a more mature approach to the crime world TAS Gotham.

So Thorne was filling the role Carmine Falcone and Sal Moroni as he created Two Face, I was wondering when you will recover It’s never too late episode and especially he was pretty much overused in this series but I guess you know that he was in the very first episode of the Batman 2004 series. Roland Dagget the most evil man in the show as I guess you will include the Dark knight Rises reference?

I’d love to see this version of Thorne in a movie

I never understood how Thorne was the youngst gangster in "its never to late" if he had a white hair.

"This brings us neatly to the '90s, when beat ass went into production." The acronym pronunciation just fits so perfectly, probably unintentionally.

I've always believed he should make a comeback in the comics.

Honestly? I just see him as a poor man's Wilson Fisk.

Was just about to post a comment about how Roland Daggett should get a video soon, but then the end happened and it turns out you are already cooking it up! Looking forward to it.

Characters like Thorne, the Roman and Daggett are reminders to us fans that Batman doesn't always chase insane and sadistic superpowered Villains, he also fights regular style crime as well because that was what started Batman, either a mugging gone wrong or an organised hit on Thomas Wayne with his Wife Martha being collateral damage..

Paging the crime Dr is one of my favorites you see alot of contrast between Thorne and his brother 1 is willing to kill people, while the other isn't 1 really only cares about power the other doesn't You can't be a close friend of Batman's dad and be a bad person. If u were he wouldn't touch you with a 10ft pole

I really enjoyed Thorne. For as memorable as even the one off villains were, his face is one of the first that comes to mind when I think of this show. Everything from his voice to his design to his mannerisms has always stayed in my head no matter how long I go between watching episodes.

Strange how Matthew Thorne in the comics was less moralistic in the comics as one of his issues had him essentially doing the Rupert heart condition with an unknowing subject. Though to lighten up the dark issue by Alan Grant is the comic art of Norm Breyfogle.

Absolutely love watching BBH yeeting Thorne like it's nothing

It's not much, but I want to see this channel continue. Thanks, Lake! Once I get a new job, I'll be doing this monthly.

I would like to see a scene Michael Stormwell and Matthew Thorne just talking and discussing their relationship with their brothers. I think it would be very interesting.

In a way he is the best villain in B:TAS; not in how close he came in killing Batman, how much of a threat he was at anyone time, nor in how memorable he was overall... It's that he stuck around for so long...

I still love the only thing Batman asked was for info about his father. The Batman animated series was really under rated on how much Bruce Wayne helped people.

It's a testament to the guy that, even when lined up against so many of the show's iconic baddies, I can still remember him and what he did 😊

Im really looking forward to that Daggett video.

You know, there's always been one thing about Rupert Thorne that no one has ever answered and it boggles me.... whatever happened to Candice after the Bane episode because we never see her again!😮

I hope Thorne appears in Matt Reeves’s films at some point. Vastly underutilized in live action, even when all the movies have some type of mob/corruption element.

In Batman comics, Jean Paul Valley did kill Rupert Thorne as Azrael.

i always loved the thorne episodes, liked that he was a reoccurring character

Watched every show with Batman. Read hundreds of his comics. Do random researching on his stories just because, since I was a kid. And I STILL learn something new with every video of yours. Thanks for the consistently entertaining, and informative videos!

The way Two face was able to throw Rupert Thorne's bag ass like a sack of potatoes made me wonder if his accident gave him super strength too

My compliments on the music you use at the end of your videos. I legit thought it was from one of the episodes of BTAS until you told a commenter that it wasn't. Whoever wrote and recorded it must have been a fan of the music of Shirley Walker and the other composers for The DCAU. It's a shame we don't have scores on the same level as BTAS or STAS nowadays. The only one that comes to mind are the scores by Christopher Willis for the Mickey Mouse shorts and specials directed and supervised by Paul Rudish. Great video as always, I am glad to subscribe to this channel, even if it is just about DC animation. I don't know if you plan to make another channel about Marvel or other Non-DC Comics animation in the future or have this channel branch out to those topics. Regardless, keep up the good work.

After getting more into the mythos of Batman, it felt like a missed opportunity that Hugo Strange had nothing to do with Thorne despite their relationship in the comics and how he was omitted from the auction story. I know, network censors and all that, but it would have given Thorne’s story twice as much depth if they went with the plot of Strange haunting him from beyond the grave, only for it to be revealed that Strange was alive and merely messing with his psyche.

Also I forgot that you think Thorne should have been in Mask of the Phantasm as he is part of the crime bosses that Andrea should have gone after?

I was hoping Daggett would be your next video 😊

There was a young guy on a motorcycle in the Mask of the Phantasm movie. The hoodlum is fought by the young Bruce Wayne and escapes him. I always thought that the young hoodlum was a young Rupert Thorne, as it resembled both Thorne and a young Marlon Brando. It's not currently on the Batman Wiki, but I was thinking of adding it.

I always want to imagine that before Bruce Wayne became batman Rupert Thorne's rise to power might have connections to carmine Falcone (My head canon way of adding Falcone to the DCAU) Rather he worked for him at one point or was a Young Rival to the Roman is something I can leave to the imagination, I honestly can see the two existing as rival family's the early days of Gotham when Mobsters Ruled the city, and It wouldn't be crazy if Falcone Died before the Batman started to appear in Gotham. If we can fit Jason Todd into the DCAU years after the shows ended I'm sure carmine Falcone existing at one point off screen isn't out of the question.

Thank you for this video! I always wondered why they changed Thorne’s character and had him take the place of the similarly nicknamed Boss Moroni from the comics

4:16 THE DRAMA!!! The mystery! Excellent writers. 👍🏿

1:33 It was a front group for the Colombo Crime Family started by Joe Colombo.

You just got a new subscriber, friend. Excellent video.

I love Rupert Thorne, because he's as effective as any of Batman's more eccentric villains, while also being so... normal. As weird as that is to say, it makes him stand out among the likes of The Joker and Two-Face.

I always figured thorne was a original character for the show, made so the normal level crime element had a proper,memorable representative, soI'm surprised he's based on a comics character. what makes thorne memoerable is how he'll often play at being friendly and affable, but is really just a manipualtive and rage filled control freak who is very petty.

"You think I tried to kill Dent? Ha! Boys, take this little Robin down to the bridge. See how far he flies!" My most memorable Thorne quote - though not sure I got it all right. Emphasises the man's casual brutality.

tv execs: you can't use the word mafia, kids will think that every italian is a mafioso! BTAS crew: ok BOSS

John Vernon is brilliant. Gangsters helped this series a lot. Throwing Robin off the bridge into Gotham River, the cars, the tommy guns. Candace the lady in red. All awesome.

I always wondered what made Candice such a wild card. She willingly took up Robin's invitation to fight in the Bane episode. I may be in the minority on this, but I wish we learned more about her.

It may just be me, but my headcannon is that Rupert Thorne was merely the last remaining remnant of the crime families of old that had managed to escape Batman and Gordon’s crackdown on organized crime by “going legit”, and uses it as a cover for his nefarious actions and as an extra source of income to compensate for any lost by the actions of Batman.

Im running a neutral DC tabletop campaign, and now I know I gotta use Thorne. He seems perfect for pissing the party off, no matter if he's with or against them.

4:33 Love the reference.

This television show is amazing

I do quite like and maybe even slightly prefer it when Batman is more focus on fighting "normal" criminals like the Ruppert Thorne or Carmine Falcone, instead of supervillains like the Joker

Funny, as a kid I just assumed that in Batman TAS that the mafia simply wasn't of Italian/Sicilian background

Rupert Thorne has the potential to be am main villain in a Batman movie.

I kinda wonder what if thorne tried to make peace with stromwell and proposed that the crime families merged together to take over Gotham and they pull their resources together to create an anti batman for the mob this is my idea of adapting prometheus to something

I should point out that while Thorne does show a stark resemblance to an older Marlon Brando, his design was based on that of Carroll O'Connor, who at the time of Thorne's inception played everyone's loveable bigot Archie Bunker.

I think it great that there is not mafia in Gotham , as Gotham cannot be categories as a city based on real life cities like New York due to goth aesthetic so I’m not sure the Italian mafia naturally existing in Gotham would make this city less unique , that and there are just more than just the mafia in America 1900s crimes such as Hells angels and Irish mob , an British descent American mob boss such Rupert just make the world more realistic as America has more than one crime organization

Rupperd Thorne was a really bad man in the Batman the animated series

Can you do an episode on Summer Gleeson? I was very surprised when I started buying the Batman comics in the late 90s that she was never a significant presence in the franchise. Would love an examination of her!

me and my friend were making fun of the fact that you are running out of characters and soon would have to resort to Condiment King.

1:29 Though ironically The Italian-American Civil right league was founded by Joe Columbo

Super Nice

A Thorne in Batmans Eyes.

and now that you mention it, guess who was in charge of the italian american civil rights league

"He wasn't a gangster, he was a prominent politician" - Those two things have line between them thinner than either side would like to admit. This isn't just a cheap joke about politicians being scummy. Lot of people involved in Politics, even today, have either ties to the mafia or come from those parts. And Mafia tends to act as local politicians, offering protection to "Their" people. Like Al Capone... The guy saved easily hundreds of lives, mostly of beggars and low-class... And ended the lives of perhaps equally as many cops and rivals...

I wish one of the writers liked Bane and gave him a bigger (and true adaptation with him being smart) role on the show.

Ahh the (Not) Carmine Falcone