Damn, this vid doin numbers

Darth vader the guy who lost every thing he ever cared about became a slave to his abuser and then died is a “Mary Sue”

Fundamentally, the issue with a Mary Sue is not the character themselves, it's that the story does not contain or challenge them. Superman becomes a Mary Sue if he's put in the Walking Dead universe and spends his time mowing down zombies from above without any moral dilemmas or people to challenge him. Rick Grimes becomes a Mary Sue if he's dropped next to Joy Newsome from Room and just shoots her captor in the forehead. The issue I find with the term is just that it seems to imply that the problem is a quality innate to the character, when it isn't.

To say captain America is a Mary sue misses the character entirely. In the mcu he kind of is a tragic hero who always takes the sacrifice even to his own detriment. That’s his flaw.

Another thing I’d add is who the Mary Sue is meant to appeal to. In most works of escapism, an overpowered protagonist is usually designed for the enjoyment of the audience. Meanwhile, with Lily’s brand of Mary Sues, especially in her own writing, you can tell she’s the only one having fun. It’s a vehicle for her to give herself power, charisma, and romances she’d never have in real life and to put herself at the center of entire universes where she’s the most important person ever born. That’s what I think separates characters who are simply overpowered from full-blown Mary Sues.

Say it with me now: " Those that preach the loudest have the most to hide."

Lily is the type of person that (unironically) would turn evil the second they get powers.

By this point "Mary Sue" has become synonymous with "character I hate and want EVERYONE else to hate".

I think you're missing an element of Elle Woods' "like it's hard?" Line that helps bolster your point. She's not just showing off to impress the guy, and it's not just that it genuinely did take a while lot of work on her part, but also a huge part of the conflict Elle runs into is everybody thinks she's stupid because of her personality, style and interests. She falls very nearly into the "popular pretty girl" stereotype because she put a huge amount of time and effort into style and social engagements, and because that's considered vapid and shallow, people don't take her seriously and assume she's dumb. But part of Elle's point by remaining confident in her abilities and demeanor isn't just because she's not afraid to be herself, but to show people "of course I got into Harvard, just like you did, because I am smart, just like you are". Her confidence in that moment carries within it one of the major hurdles that she has to overcome while at Harvard, and Lily uses it as an example of someone without struggles. Also: how dare you call this a B-movie, you will be hearing from my lawyers. The Cease-and-Desist will be scented.

I think the issue is these people miss that sometimes the competence IS the premise. Light is not a mary sue despite all his luck and victories simply because the entire premise of the show is "what happens when the smartest person in the room gets the ability to play god". The competence is not only expected but almost mandatory here.

Can i just add that regardless of sueness or anything else, Lily Orchard demonstrated a complete lack of comphrension of people because using force lightning, an explicitly evil power to kill one of your friends is a valid thing to angst about

With the way Lily seems to go after action heroes, I’d probably blame it on the fact that she seems to hate high-stakes action stories, and believes that low-stakes coffee shop comedies are always superior. Never mind the fact that the thing that makes a good story is quality and not genre…

Never forget Lilly is the person who wrote a story where the main self insert OC goes around a multiverse Committing genocide and beating the crap out of God, because she is in the right and thinks that Atheism is the one true way

Excellent video as always, Pete. Glad to be on to soak up the clout you took from me >:) But for real tho, Lily is a prime example of who not to be as a critic. If you're correct on a topic, you shouldn't have to blatantly lie or throw away helpful words/definitions because you feel petty and spiteful. That is childish behavior and she needs to get over herself. If she is ever going to make good content instead of having waves of people who dislike her, she needs to cut the bullshit and tell the truth. Mary Sue's suck. Its bad writing. Bad writing bears no genders, has no race and possesses no sexuality. And she knows this, which is why she had to lie about it. Big shame.

Honestly, so many of Lily's videos are just because people in fandom are 'mean' to her. Her most recent video is about writing of sibling relationships because people were criticizing her stories about siblings, saying that they have unhealthy relationships that are emotionally incestuous. It's why she brings up her own works in her videos so often. The video is not coming for a genuine place, it's coming from a place of 'people critiqued my works and I'm going to write a whole video essay to show them not only that I'm right, but that they're part of a systematic problem!'. It's not helped by her holier-than-thou attitude and complete dismissal of anyone bringing up legitimate critiques. Many of her problems are problems she has with fandom, not the works themselves, and boy does it show in her essays.

Lily Orchard? What a lunatic.

I will say that villans can be given immense ammounts of plot armor that does detract from the experience. Not nessesaraly a Mary Sue, but plot progression so baffling that you start to wonder if the writers are just trying to pad out the run time. Cant think of any examples off the top of my head, but the kind of encounter where either the vilan breaks the laws of the story and/or their character, or the protagonist makes a braindead decision and the villan ends up getting away because of it.

the term "fandom racists" has some serious tomy talarico "gaming racists" vibes. it's so stupid it almost distracted me from her following statement about how theorising about rae's parents was somehow "missing the point" even though rae's parents (at least until the palpatine bullshit) was meant to be a subversion, and a subversion doesn't work if we aren't interested in who her parents are, meaning that theorising about them is the point. forget not knowing what a mary sue is, i don't think she knows what story telling is (like actually, this isn't even just a joke i'm making, i'm genuinely starting to suspect this after everything i've ever seen her say)

Lily doesn't care what you think or what point you're trying to make. I know this because, after her infamous first Dungeon Meshi video where she made her distasteful take on Laios by offending any autistic people who lack social cues, instead of taking responsibility for it, in her second Dungeon Meshi video, she made more ways to bash Laios with more misinformation about his character and use Bojack Horseman of all shows in comparison that has nothing to do with the premise of Dungeon Meshi and didn’t even apologize to those who have symptoms for the autism spectrum by saying she hasn’t met anyone someone like Laios. (Sai has the first video in her Reacting to Lily Orchard's Dungeon Meshi Videos live streaming if you're curious.) To me, I think Lily is a lost cause because nothing will faze her, she will never change her ways even if we keep calling her out, and she will find more ways to blame people to excuse herself.

Calling Commander Shepard someone who fights for every single victory and wins just barely wins every time a mary sue its so idiotic

31:14 "She just is a child" that's an insult to children. Literal kids could come up with better stories after playing with action figures for a few minutes than Lily ever has and ever could (other than that great video).

13:39 also this scene is also a joke that the actor of Indiana Jones had food poisoning and wanted to end the scene quickly as possible

24:59 Nice use of Glados dialogue. Orchard really seems to have no concept of empathy whatsoever.

The good that came out of Lilys is I've found so many good smaller youtube channels that shit on her crapy takes, lmaoo

Holy fuck! This video is actually good! Genuinely though this video came from a higher sub-count channel. May the algorithm look kindly upon you!

Great video as always pete

33:20 POWER RANGERS TIME FORCE/MIRAI SENTAI TIMERANGER SPOTTED

Yeah, like I've said before in some of Kaiser's videos, Orchard's argument all boils down to "you don't like my character because they're X" when the problems are that "these characters don't work because of Y." It is a double standard which has been used by people all over the political spectrum. Maybe less to do with politics and more to do with "how dare you criticize this character I like." Also, something that both Mary Sue/Gary Stu defenders (e.g. Orchard, Cosmonaut Variety Hour) and many critics (e.g. The Critical Drinker) tend to forget is that Mary Sues are merely one type of bad character writing/storytelling. And like I've mentioned before (and which you partially showed when going over Taken), you can still have a non-Mary Sue character be as bad and favored by the plot as a Mary Sue. This has happened with Bayformer's Optimus Prime (easily killing Megatron--who was offering peace in DotM--after losing an arm, threatening and forcing Grimlock and the Dinobots to join him in AoE, willing to mercilessly kill humans post-DotM), Snyder's Superman (destroying most of Metropolis, killing Zod, the Christ-like imagery in MoS and BvS, people praising him to have saved people in BvS when he looks like its a chore, having people mourn him after his asinine death against Doomsday), and yes, the SW prequels' Anakin Skywalker (able to destroy the Trade Federation ship BY ACCIDENT without shown to have used the Force in TPM, killing women and children TWICE after not doing next-to-nothing about his visions and with no context given in AotC and RotS, being excused of killing women and children in AotC where he didn't even feel the effects of the Dark Side, arguing with and being abrasive/disobedient to Obi-Wan in AotC with no resolution or anything showing how he grew into the hero he was in RotS, having Padme say she loves Anakin AFTER he killed women and children in AotC despite nothing showing what she sees in him--and Padme in RotS even saying "Anakin wouldn't do that!" about killing children even though she knows he had done such in the past, etc.). All of these, especially Anakin (who was said in the OT to have been a good man who was seduced by the Dark Side but the prequels don't reflect that), share the same core problems as Mary Sues/Gary Stus: they do not drive the plot, they do not deal with consequences of their actions, said actions are excused by the plot, they act stupid for the sake of the plot, and much, MUCH more. It's not helped that I have literally seen people excuse all of this (even Anakin killing women and children by adding in "context" they pull out of the ether, as well as those same people saying Anakin faced more hardship than Luke--all of which I've seen being applied to Rey and even Kylo Ren). And that's not going into those same people attacking and belittling others' legitimate criticisms (emphasis on the legitimate part). Anyway, sorry for the long paragraphs, but TL;DR: this stuff is nothing new and the same nonsense Orchard used to defend Rey and Carol Danvers have been used for other poorly-told characters.

41:26 Lily is evil and that still doesn’t mean Mary Sue isn’t mostly used as a buzzword in a culture war. Two of the very characters you mentioned don’t fit that definition but they were labeled as because of nonsense outside of their stories.

Lily is just seething that people don’t like her favorite characters.

To be honest, Lara Croft IS kind of a Mary Sue, at least in the original games. She's an aspirational figure - wealthy, educated, athletic, confident, sarcastic, with an impossibly great figure and a cut-glass accent - capable of taking down a T-Rex, whose only weakness is falling from high places or into spikes. A Mary Sue I never see discussed, though, is Sam LaRusso from Cobra Kai. The show frames her as this manic pixie dream girl-next-door, carefully framing every scene she's in so she is shown to be righteous and sensible, when most of the time, she is the instigator, and her main quality is her ability to manipulate men into doing what she wants by shedding crocodile tears and acting the victim. Samantha's only failure in what are now five seasons is losing the Girls' bracket of the All-Valley Karate Championships (and Robby before that, even though she immediately rebounds by getting back together with Miguel) to Tori. Other than that, she is framed as being perfect in every way, even though it is glaringly obvious that she is anything but.

Mary Sues can work in a story that is constructed for them, that's literally what the action genre is, it's a sandbox for actors to say and do cool shit and have everything work out for the hero in the end. Mary Sues become a problem when you want to do literally anything else, they will destroy any story that doesn't explicitly make accommodations for them.

Lily? Bitter and projecting? Surely you jest!

"Hello every hero's journey character ever" did she just insinuate that simon from gurren lagann is a mary sue? This isn't say that they're saying he specifically is, that's just to prove the point that her argument is inherently flawed and is saying those things just to make people she disagrees with sound hypocritical. But if she thinks for over a second that my boy simon is anything but one of the best anime characters of all time she's gonna have some explaining to do

In regards to the drama, she's openly had a kink for the stuff she's being accused of, going as far as making her own self ship comic about it, so I think its safe to say its all true

Oh boy this is gonna be fun

To me the issue with Mary Sue is that they trivialize everything the story wants you to believe is important. Dark lord, who has slain dozens of would-be heroes over hundreds of years? Mary Sue beats him in moments. Order of badasses who only accept the best of the best? They try to recruit Mary Sue after knowing her for fifteen minutes. A secret technique that takes masters years to learn? Mary Sue masters it in seconds. Death God, who could potentially have nearly any woman who ever lived? He falls die-hard in love with Mary Sue after a few interactions. Everything loses its status in order to make Mary Sue look good.

Heres my take on this situation: sometimes you want to see Batman struggle against the odds, and sometimes you want to see Superman power through everything. Both are enjoyable for different reasons.

I think a more accurate definition of the trope (more of an archetype at this point) is a character who is not subject to the laws of cause and effect established either by the text of the real world. That is to say, there is a dissonance between the effort the character must use, and the effectiveness of the desired result. A couple days training gives them more power than the masters of the art. Actions which are supposedly character flaws do not actually impede their progress towards their goal, but often further it. Being a jerk, an idiot, or a fraud, do not deter other characters from adoring and praising them. Some Mary Sues may possess one of these traits and not others, multiple, or even all - the one thing unifying them is that dissonance between cause and effect. Rey, for instance, is a Mary Sue. Within a couple minutes/hours she accomplishes a Jedi mind trick, a technique even masters of the art struggled with. In the span of a few days, she was able to pull a lightsaber to her hand, in contest with a trained force-user - something Luke struggled with after 3 years of training and no other force-user fighting him for it. Perhaps a few weeks later, she is able to lift a number of rocks which are likely greater in weight than the X-Wing Luke would fail to lift. And then, after finally getting substancial time to train, she literally achieves an ability so rare and difficult to accomplish that the seeking of it literally drove the plot of Episode 3. But I disagree with defining the trope as inherently bad or detracting from the text. While dissonance can detract from a text, it is dissonance which drives them. The reveal that Darth Vader was Luke's father, for instance, would not be a twist at all, if there were not such a distance between the described heroism of Anakin and the evident villany of Vader. The archetype of the Mary Sue has been used to great effect. Take American Psycho. Patrick Bateman is a Mary Sue. He openly discusses his lust for violence and murder; he is openly seen carrying blood-soaked sheets and bodies in bags; he is a terrible liar, who by all means should have been caught by the detective; and he literally got into a shootout with the cops during a killing spree. And yet, the film ends, and Patrick Bateman remains free. This works, however, where Rey does not. Because American Psycho is ABOUT this dissonance. It is about the power of the wealthy, how untouchable they are, how tyrannical they may be and suffer no consequence. It is also about the instablity of the psyche, and we frequently question whether or not certain events even happened. Rey does not pull off the trope, because the films have literally nothing to say about it. The dissonance between her actions and their consequences is a result of Disney's strict 'guidelines' of how a "strong female protagonist" must look. They are scared of having her grow stronger over the text, because she must therefore begin weak. They are scared of having her decisions inadvertantly harm people, because then she is made to look like a fool. They must at all costs avoid alienating the female audience member - but in doing so, they infantilize her. However, It is evident in real life that plenty of women have outstanding potential and are continuously held down by patriarchy. It is therefore no wonder why even facile attempts at 'strong female protagonists' resonate with women who have had their potential squashed out of them. The narrative of a woman's discovery of her own existing potential is a powerful one - I only hope that it is told through better means in the future.

43:20 45:28 You guys are actually right on the money, just not on the right fanfiction. It's highly likely it was made in regards to her OC in her Star Wars sequel trilogy rewrite where she gives Ray a black "woke socialist sith lord" girlfriend that's she's gotten much more backlash over in regards to being called a Mary Sue. That's probably also her reasoning for what she put in 31:21 in regards to black women I actually highly recommend Manufatura's video "analyzing Lily Orchards morality compass" in which she analyzes two videos that Lily made for the same reason she made this one on Mary Sue's: to defend her OC from people criticizing it.

Imagine having so many trash takes you still get analyzed and made fun of even after falling off Lily Orchard moment

When I started writing, I was worried about my MC actually being a gary stu. He is abnormally competent. He just so happens to be related to powerful people. He is a perfect little experiment by chance, and some times events just fall in his lap. But, is that normal? It feels like it's too perfect, like he's being set up. And the other side of hyper competence is that each time he fails it hits him hard, and no matter how many times he tries to feign humility, deep down he's got an ego that hurts him and others. And then imagine the shock when he finds out that yes, his life was the result of manipulation from before he was even born, and not all, but a lot of the horrible traumatic events that made him stronger both physically and magically, but crippled him mentally and emotionally, were because he was a pawn in someone's game. If I played it completely straight, if it really was just a big coincidence, he'd be boring, another bland gary stu that wins everything because he was just born better. I didn't have everything planned out, but the basis for the story at the start was about how someone born into power and forced into a larger role he never wanted. For every hero that saves the day, you also risk breaking a young person who couldn't handle the pressure that comes from having that much weight up on his shoulders. More specifically, I was thinking about someone like Harry Potter. Let's say he actually had a great home life, and while he thought magic was cool, he was content with staying because of the disconnect between magic and muggle society. But Hagrid puts him in a burlap sack and takes him to Hogwarts anyway because they knew he was special and destined to killed Voldemort.

Oh my god you are angry in this... ...and for good reason. I mean, how can anyone say the things Lilly says with a straight face? I have a burning passion for storytelling, so much so that i would try to become an author if i had anything resembling a single creative idea in my entire body. I live for the story, i would give my life if that would further the art in a meaningful way. To see somebody misrepresent the fundamentals so brazenly makes my blood boil. So yeah, good video.

Lily doesn't understand a lot of things. She only thinks she does.

I'd add Pyra and Mythra to the list too considering both of their cases of PTSD and DID.

17:07 I think it's also worth noting that when Elle does "Swagger" it's fashion related. like her dramatic success was because she re-heard the witness testimony and realized it made no sense because they were Permed and had permed their hair for years

glad im here (:

Here’s an easy shorthand to handle dealing with Lily. Ready everybody? *clears throat* Lily never does her research.

Lorax quote

The reason lily is not talking about the anime is because she's only seen 3 and all other are bad because BOY.

W video

17:21 the musical is better by virtue of having There Right There in the sound track (AKA The Gay or European song)

I don't pay much mind to the mary sues trope, but I will say my favourite Mary Sue is the character Mary Sue from Youjo Senki. Good light novel will recommend also an anime if your interested in that more then the Light novel. Anyway have a good day everyone

22:39 OSP MENTION

38:06 I wasn't expecting Mauler to be referenced, but I'm far from disappointed. I don't think I've seen any other critic thoroughly go over nearly each line of dialogue and explain its problems.

The music choices are great, and kinda distracted me trying to remember the titles/sources! XD

27:40 so this was kinda your entire point, but this does emphasize that I guess Lilly’s idea of character might just come down to if the character is a badass that destroys everything, because I don’t see how Rey not killing Ren means that the series took away her character. If anything, Rey never had much character, they didn’t take away from it in this movie. Hell in this movie they tried to actually give her a semi backstory that was honestly forgettable, not take away character, it’s just that she never had much of one and abandoned her conflict.

31:16 well... she technically is writing some fanfiction about trauma and reconciliation about siblings on the real world... wich it evidentiates this: To her, is either a melodramatic sludge set in the real world, or power fantasy were cool character do cool things.

I kno you want the term Mary Sue to mean what it used to or the version of the definition you first learned. But As a species, we have an innate need to express ourselves and on this level, the pace of linguistic change is not only a good thing but a faster pace of linguistic change is essential to evolution.

Your guys are cool. :)

Does Lily even realize that there are characters in DC that can challenge or even demolish Superman physically? Darkseid is basically his Bane.

1. 21:59-22:36 Let's add Nico Robin, and Yamato from One Piece, Bijinder from Kikaider 01, Android 18 from Dragonball, any of the female rangers in power rangers/super sentai, Arcee, Windblade, and Elita one from transformers, and Pike, Vex, and Keyleth from legend of Vox Machina to the list of cool female characters that people like. 2. The fact that Lily thinks that Luke is a poorly written character while praising Rey goes to show that Lily was never really a fan of Star Wars. 3. 34:58 Lily really really really hates Eastern animation, did you hear what she said about studio Trigger?

It's all been about her fanfcs the whole time, hasn't it?

Great video! I am still convinced Lily is a paid actor, hard to believe someone like that actually exists.

Half the time things like the stakes not rising or something isn't even a good criticism because it isn't necessarily Doesn't matter if we know ___ will be saved, the point is to see the process and characters

I’ve been seen this idea a lot if there hot their a sue, even if they constantly get beaten up and shoved in the trashcan

What’s crazy is up until this video all I have seen from lily is the legend of korra video where I agree with a majority of that video, and now I see this video and I’m like wtf is the person talking about😂most if not all of these examples aren’t Sue’s and they are liked

I like 'In Another World with My Smartphone' and harem anime/manga in general because while the main protagonist 9/10 is just a boring, paint-by-numbers self insert that stray's into Gary Stu territory the side characters and the members of the harem usually are very unique, interesting and personable.

In my opinion, Ken from the barbie movie isn't a marry sue... but can someone explain to me why people think he is?

Of course you can justify a superhero using their powers to mess with people. Spider-Man would occasionally web up Jameson's mouth or glue him to the ceiling for writing defamatory articles. Daredevil tied up his friend's bully and left him naked in the Winter show for an entire night (and this doesn't just come from a random comic book, this comes from Man Without Fear, one of the first comics you'd find if you looked up Daredevil's most famous and iconic stories). Half of JoJo protagonists use their powers to mess with normal people at some point. And a super-powered protagonist finding a clever way to embarrass or scare some normal loud-mouthed jerk is a shonen staple trope. And while I'm on the topic of anime protagonists, it's pretty interesting how they are rarely ever the subject of Mary Sue discussion despite oftentimes being overpowered, having gung-ho attitudes and not having to struggle with moral choices. I'm guessing it's because these kinds of characters are more normalized in the medium. A lot of manga, especially that are aimed at younger demographics, are gratuitous wish fulfillment fantasies made to be read on a commute train and thrown away. It's not made to be high art. If people were to apply the same strict standards to anime characters they apply to Western ones, they would have to do lots of mental gymnastics to justify why that doesn't make them Mary Sues, according to those standards.

Korsica got mentioned, based

i'm actually a bit surprised korra wasn't one of lily's examples of "good" mary sues, because despite her being a clear example of a mary sue, even one used in kaiser's video, she's probably the easiest to defend. now that's not saying much, and when korra unlocks life bending because of a story breaking deus ex machina, then really there's nothing that's gonna save her from the label, and having metal bending without seismic sense doesn't help either. but her starting the story already having mastered all 4 bending styles, while still mary sue behaviour, actually does make a meta amount of sense, since it allows the story to start where the last one left off, without fear of retreading stuff we've already watched. like a video game sequel that starts you off with all the abilities from the last game so you aren't waiting to unlock them again, or where the first level is just as hard as the last games final level so you aren't waiting for the tension to rise back up. now, this isn't a perfect defence, but it's not a hard one to make, especially since i could've just left out how the life and metal bending is still bad writing, cherry picking out a stronger argument on why mary sues can be good sometimes, and i'm surprised lily didn't make it herself. except i know why she didn't, because if the fact she titled a video "korra is garbage" means anything, i assume it's that she doesn't like that show, and her video wasn't actually about arguing for the sake of the trope, but an excuse on why she's allowed to like the poorly written characters she likes, which is honestly pathetic. you don't need an excuse to like something, even if that thing isn't good.

41:57 okay can we just pay attention to this wack part? Like yeah capitalism did delude feminism by making it be "women should be allowed wear the boot that crushes poor people"

21:59 - 22:36 the worst part is half the characters you showed during your compilation she hates. like i know she hates most anime even if it fits a lot of her preferences for viewing (ie dungeon meshi), she despises 2b, and her opinion on bell/beauty and the beast is low in general. i think the one character i see in this line up that the would praise is aqua from kingdom hearts because that series is her baby even though she cannot pick up the themes and thinks that the games on the side systems are not relevant to the story.

The shadow boxing is none stop with this broad

Wait what did Kaiser mean about Shirou Emiya being a Mary Sue? He isn't one from my perspective (Have only watched UBW Route)

28:20 TWEWY music detected. Video instantly based

Its just a jump to the left

40:43 that doesn’t mean it’s not a buzzword.

Oh interesting. I did wonder what criteria she actually uses to chose which characters she likes and which she doesn’t.

Also, your definition of a Mary Sue is agreeable but pretty vague because people can mean a thousand different things by "affects the story in a negative way" and a bunch of things by "favored". If I'm a fan of Griffith from Berserk I could say "Griffith did nothing wrong and the story is affected negatively by not acknowledging this and instead favoring Guts as the morally superior character, therefore Guts is a Mary Sue". That would be nonsense, but that WOULD technically align with the vague definition you gave. UpD: "they're not a Mary Sue if they achieve things through their personal skill" is a pretty poor criterion since that implies skilled characters can't be Mary Sues.

Good videos I do think that if you changed your definitions of marie sue to hers you would agree with her. Except that last part that last section is stupid af

38:08 everyone giving a personal interpretation of what the term means putting different characters in and out the box based it. It’s not a term useful for general discussion. Only used in video essays under a single individuals interpretation at the time.

22:04 ya cooked her

Wait, people call korra a mary sue?

43:02 did. Did Lily Orchard ACTUALLY just imply Ebony Dark'ness Dementia Raven Way is only called a Mary Sue because she has a ridiculous name? Like is that what she's implying or am I just severely misreading this moment? Because if she is, she doesn't know ANYTHING about My Immortal oh my FUCKING god- wether she's a parody or not(which this is even worse if she IS a parody), Ebony Dark'ness is the fucking TEXT BOOK DEFINITION of a Mary Sue in EVERY WAY POSSIBLE- Lily wouldn't be referencing her if she didn't KNOW THIS because that is what Ebony is FAMOUS FOR- does Lily genuinely think she isn't a Mary Sue!?!?!?!?!?! Hello!?!?!?!?!?!?

There's drama with Lilly Orchard? I only came here because the Almighty Algorithm recommended this vid to me.

21:04 Is this interaction bait?

I think that calling game protagonists (that you control, make decisions for and etc) a Mary Sue is kinda the point? Like ofc they are the protagonist, we play this game to feel important and be a hero so developers want to make it fun for the players. Its the kind of the game you play to be a absolute unit of a human and have fun while still going through hardships, thats the point of the game. Though ofc you can make bad decisions if you want.

31:55 so 3 characters with no similarities what so ever?

Question: Would Hajime Nagumo count as a Gary Stu?

Is Jake Sully from avatar a Mary Sue? He's the protagonist, the story bends itself into a pretzel to make his decisions work. Nothing he ever does is wrong, everyone likes him except the antagonists, and everything pretty much works out for him. One could argue that he cannot be a Mary Sue because he is the villain, but I don't think that is correct. Villans can be Mary Sues, it's the antagonists that cannot be Mary Sue.

Villains can absolutely be Mary Sues. If the story spends too much time wanking a villain and can't commit to giving them a solid weakness, their defeat will likely look anticlimactic or forced. Because the author cared about creating their cool badass donut steel OC more than about creating an antagonist for their protagonist. Think Broly or pretty much any DBZ movie villain.

46:15 I thought you agreed it was story issue not a character issue definition now you are saying that it’s a character issue harming the story. You never actually gave a proper reason why captain marvel or Rey fit that mold.

Why am I hearing TWEWY music?

I think Ava from boarderlands 3 is a marry sue, she becomes a siren out of nowhere, knows how to use her powers despite not knowing what they might even be or have any training. Not to mention she’s annoying as all hell and blames Lilith for Maya’s death when Ava caused it

I think the problem is that the term "mary sue" is so overused with so many different meanings that the term is practically useless

IM GOING TO ALICE (Like if you get this)

Lily Orchard told me when I asked to use a frame in Pronoun video as my steam profile picture NO.

Addressing the drama: If she committed a crime, send her to court Otherwise, who cares?