@-pacer- They indeed are

honestly it's all on the developer of dungeons, they should be able to let people transfer their key from one platform to another, not that they would do that xD Honestly Linus __also__ has the option to just buy yet another copy to solve the stress lol

@-pacer- actually given their position it makes sense. i bet he has had companies trying to pander him so that their products are put in the best light possible. so when he linux community did their thing he probably went "ah sh*t here we go again". additionally windows users, are not used to getting community help. it's not like when they encounter a bug on windows they go "Yo billy ole friend supppp..... listen buddy, pal i need your help real quick"

Another small thing: the only thing you can do out of the box with archives on macos is extract them. If the format is not supported you will need to install free programs like keka or "the unarchiver". There are no free equivalents to 7zip, winzip or winrar, so you cannot "preview" the content of an archive and then decide what you want to drag out of it.

I actually agree with his point. Cross-play and Cross-platform ownership *should* be a thing.

He has been expressing this viewpoint for awhile now. Basically saying that if you own it, you should be able to play it anywhere that can support it.

Which is kinda what we're on about on Linux, though Linus is kind of a bad taste in people's mouths because they don't have a voice as big as his. He's not against Linux from my point of view.

I can agree with owning it everywhere but that's just not how the industry works in 2021

@@BrodieRobertson Thing is, I don't think Linus even presented his situation with Minecraft Dungeons as a slight against Linux, so I think it's disingenuous for you to say that his point doesn't make sense when he's arguing about it on a platform standpoint, as it ultimately isn't a problem of Linux itself.

I bought the java version that works everywhere. I don't know why anyone would want the UWP version when it's less modable.

Linux is a viable platform for anyone willing to put forth the effort to learn how to use Linux. No one is born with the innate knowledge how to operate any OS. Most of them still couldn't run a program if it didn't make a link on their desktop either. Dah how do I start Photoshop?

​@@1pcfred that doesn't mean the user experience is flawless, or that we shouldn't improve the ease of use of many distros and desktop environments, notably the ones aimed at desktop users. the fact of the matter is that we won't have full-fledged linux support until it's a reasonable choice for the average pc user, who just may not be interested in configuring their OS. that doesn't mean we can't still have our arches and gentoos, but the users of those distros will also benefit from the further desktop-oriented support from traditionally windows-focused software/games just as the "casual user" will. valve's proton is making big steps in this direction, but their platform isn't the only one, and there's still many hard edges on desktop linux that preclude it from being a viable option for less tech-savvy users

@@danidotexe_ Linux was never designed for the average user. Not that an average user can't run Linux. Just they're going to struggle with nothing to show for their trouble. I'm not sure what kind of support you're looking for with Linux either. Commercial software developers are never going to flock to Linux. As Linux is not an ecosystem where closed source works well. It's been tried. The model is incompatible with FLOSS.

@@1pcfred windows wasn't originally designed for the average user, either: it was business software. now it's not. what's your point?

@@1pcfred there is nothing that prevents closed source software from being compiled, distributed, and run on linux, either: many closed-source packages exist, and a lot of them are used. it's entirely a user's choice, and many linux users (not just casual linux users) choose closed source software over FOSS for a variety of reasons. linux freeing the game industry from windows is not some invasion of closed-source commercial devs: commercial software developers are already here, myself included. the enterprise leans heavily on linux systems, and a large amount of the software used on enterprise is in-fact sold. the benefit of linux for gaming is less licensing fees, and more open-source tools for developers/hardware manufacturers - the majority of which will be selling the results of those tools. it's in their best interest to support and aid the open-source community to make their development easier/less costly, but that doesn't demand of them to make their own products open-source, as much as it doesn't demand that of the enterprise.

True, and many people kinda missed that despite Linus having repeatedly clarified the reason and point behind the challenge, i.e. doing the switch from the perspective of someone who isn't tech-savvy at all.

he bought the game thru the minecraft java launcher, not the store.

@@spicydeath82 No he didn't. Dude, did you even listen to anything he said?

Or, how switching is from an OS where you are a wizard to another OS where you are an absolute noob, and even worse, an opinionated noob.

@@AbteilungsleiterinBeiAntifaEV He actually did. This is a reasonable mistake to make, because Linux explicitly stated that he bought MINECRAFT through the java launcher (which he praised for being linux native, but anything that is java is almost entirely OS agnostic, but this is a digression), but Minecraft DUNGEONS through the Microsoft store. Its reasonable that someone would make this mistake, since both things are kind of true.

What needs to change is new users need to gain experience. So they know what they're doing.

@@1pcfred totally agree on you with this one. There are a reason ordinary users don't get easy access to root users. The system are going to be easy hacked from web browser like some other OS we all knows. And users should not manage files directly from the GUI as root. They should use the GUI applications, or they will shoot themself in the foot like Linus did.

@@AndersJackson it takes a very long time to develop respect for the OS. Well, it sure took me a long time. Today I do everything I can to not make changes outside my home directory. But that's certainly not the attitude I started out with. The best way to learn is by making mistakes. There's things you just can't tell people. They have to come to it on their own. Baby has to burn their hands, shoot their foot and cause all manner of harm to themselves. Then maybe they wise up? I mean who hasn't done a recursive chmod because they got sick and tired of permissions? Big mistake! I just ran as root for years myself. We don't need no stinking user account. I'd su to a user account to IRC. hehe

As someone whos recently moved to Linux i must say that the way suff works on linux is not always the same when you expect something else, i've never dragged stuff out of a zip so i'm not in tune with that, however, stuff like: I want to force close this program. Doing this the windows is is similar to linux, task manager, kill, tha didin' work for me, i googled a bit and found the pkill command, then i understood how to kill stuff, but thats a learning process that not a whole lot of people are willing to have.

I also belive he should have went with a more friendly distro, manjaro/arch is usually stated as don't try until you have enough grip on how linux work, he also has the wierd setup ever, hes machine is a wierd one in general, had he went with anything deb/ubuntu based i honestly think some stuff would atleast be less worse.

Drag and drop interactions are a de facto standard now

Thats false, drag'n'drop works between gtk and qt

@@kendarr Create a keyboard shortcut for xkill.

"How do I do X?" "You should never want to do X" -Stack Exchange and Linux forums

Who was trying to learn something new? Not Linus.

@@JamesJones-zt2yx still seething over a year later are yah?

@@JamesJones-zt2yx On behalf of new users, as I was once a new Linux user, we apologize for having a life prior to trying out Linux.

It has been this way since the beginning. We were vicious to the noobs even on irc more than 20 years ago. Nothing will change that fact, just the platform upon which it’s done

From what I've seen others say the issue was related to a UI framework bug

@@BrodieRobertson still doesn't mean it's not a problem

@@bleack8701 absolutely

@@BrodieRobertson sadly I've seen lot of people shrug things off. "Oh, it was a PopOS bug", "oh, it's a GUI bug" etc. Seems to me like some people are just sweeping thing under the rug by labeling them as bugs and not looking at the underlying issues or looking at what the competition is doing

I listended to it again and the way he phrased it was really weird but I think you're right but me and others intepreted it the other so I'm not sure, however the main point I was getting at was while Linux is getting better support it can't always be expected that software from a different platform will work.

@@BrodieRobertson I was under the impression that Dungeons was supported natively but apparently Mojang doesn't intend to support it which means Linus probably has to buy the steam version and run it through proton, which is unfortunate. I loved your video addressing the topic and would love your opinions on each of the parts when they actually drop.

@@yuvvrajkperson He should have bought the java version, duh it works everywhere

@@yuvvrajkperson pretty sure you can run non-steam games through proton

@@yuvvrajkperson If Microsoft supported interoperability, and helped with Wine/Proton development, we wouldn't have these issues. However they don't, in fact Microsoft's main objective is world domination of Windows.

Exactly, I used to use Ubuntu in its glorious days. Doesn't work for me anymore now, since I need to run 3D programs and if I keep getting bugged by the OS, I wouldn't finish my projects on time. It's difficult to admit that Linux isn't ready for the general public's consumption.

New users are stupid if they fail to recognize their own ignorance. It is not Linux's fault that they don't know squat about Linux. Learn! When I started running Linux I read the whole Documentation Project website before I even booted Linux up. Every effing howto there was. I was still lost but at least I made an effort. I did not blame the OS for my ignorance either. Or expect anything to work how I hoped it would. Go jump off a cliff and hope you float gently down, why don't you?

Linus isn't just bad at Linux, he's a poor salesperson who knows nothing about what he endorses. Generally it helps to know what you are doing if you want to brand yourself a source of information that is actually, well, informative.

@@1pcfred I don't understand your and Phone's response. No one pulls out the instructions for anything these days, except for Ikea furniture. We're all digital natives that know the concepts etc. If you need to read a whole bunch of technical doco before using an OS, doesn't that mean it is not ready for a more general user base? I've heard these kind of arguments about Linux for decades... they are still just the same, tending to prove the opposite of what the people making them think. I wish Linux had come further, but it hasn't.

@xxxh4x0rxxx stating how things are is not complaining. It may not be good but that's just how it is. 60 years UNIX hasn't dumbed down to suit anyone either. You get with the program or you don't.

"RTFM" is great advice when the manual isn't written in total jargon and incredibly difficult to navigate for a newbie.

@@theMoporter if you say RTFM (Read The Fine Manual), you should actually have read it yourself first. And be able to indicate what part of the manual they should look into. If not, you are actually just using it like a MEME and not like we did back in the time (in the 1980:th and 1990;th).

We never owned software. You owned the plastic disk, but you never owned the software. If the software doesn't run on Linux, that's not on the software dev to make you a version that works on Linux unfortunately. They can if they wish, but they're under no obligation, because you don't own the software. You have the rights to use the software as provided...

Then stick to Windows, it's a fine operating system.

@@kjeldgaard0 Not if you want privacy or speed.

@Veggie Madness This is mostly what I was referring to when I said 'learning.' It wasn't so much in reference to retention of the information. My problem was/is that in order to know I wasn't getting trolled (ie. Delete system32) or at least have some idea of what I'm doing I need to look up some things. Guides aren't always up to date, sometimes containing deprecated package names, frequently requiring old repos, and almost always neglecting to address dependencies. This is a whole rabbit hole one needs to travel just to get to the point where they can install what they want. At the very least someone needs to learn how to modify their source list. I often find myself needing to hunt down specific programs present only as parts of larger packages housed in repos for older versions of my distro's base OS. What newcomer is going to genuinely understand what it means to need to install a dependency from a package contained in a Debian Buster repo, or even how to find it for that matter, when all they are confident of is "I installed Ubuntu and want to run this program" And what of installing a package from a downloaded archive or even worse, building from source? More new commands. This is a far cry from the simplicity of a Windows installer going "Yo! You want this program, but you need these to run it. You want me to go ahead and install them too?" It's a comparison of literal seconds to possible hours.

Flatpak

@@trajectoryunown Third parties can distribute .rpm's or .deb's, and it will handle dependencies but it's quite a bit of work on the dev to maintain that themselves. And there are simply too many distros to support. There are some base standards in LSB and freedesktop as to what should be there, but it's not universal, and not well advertised. TLDR; distribution outside the repo is tricky.

Maybe GUIs should be allowed to ask for temporary privileges and have some kind of graphical indicator for whether or not it still has those privileges.

It sounds to me like you successfully navigated the path in Linux. It is a difficult journey to take. Not everyone is up to the challenge.

Yeah, it is. Did that today.

@@VojtaJavora He probably tried to drag and drop from ark to nautilus. This does not work, just tried

@@caveman7121 and kde will get the blame for this even though it is clearly Linus who chose to use an unsupported app and it's gnome's refusal to cooperate that makes drag n drop not work.

his specific issue was with dragging one file from an archive to a folder, which is easy to do on windows, but on the distro he is running it wouldn't let him, he had to unzip the whole file just to get the one file he wanted.

@@spicydeath82 I used Manjaro KDE, same distro that Linus is using, and I remember being able to do the same perfectly. That's really odd.

That's true in the case of a rolling release but not always the case with a stable release.

@@BrodieRobertson True, I've heard some horror stories with those unfortunately

I never had a Windows update that took more than a few seconds on the blue update screen, especially on Windows 10.

Takes literally seconds. I remember making a coffee before my PC started and became useable only 10 years ago. I can spare few seconds every 1st wednesday of every month (not to mention I still start my PC the 1st thing in the morning so its like already running for 20+ minutes before I ever sit down and do something with it)

And I find it slow and complicated, compared to a CLI. Your milage will vary, and if it works for you, good for you.

@@AndersJackson why would you want to type out file paths when you can open two windows in a couple clicks and drag/drop.

Also it's pretty easy to fuck up rm

@@AndersJackson gui is objectively faster in certain scenarios eg. browsing a camera SD card to save/print specific photos

@@m.f.3347 No, it isn't objectively faster, if you know how to use your TAB key in the CLI. If you are new into computers, Yes, it is faster. If you are a professional, they GUI will NOT beat a good CLI with file globbing and expansion of switches and file names. Especially if you want to move many files, or whatever like print them.. But if it work for you, good on you. But it is not generally objectively faster with GUI then with CLI. You would know, if you ever seen an experienced user working. Again, if it work for you, it is ok. But I am fatet then any of them students of they use a GUI and I use CLI. Heck, I am faster then them in the GUI, because I rarley ever use the mouse. And each time I have to use the GUI input, it will slow me down. A lot.

i wasnt like this when i started linux

I think most long term linux users go through this process, but that doesn't mean the terminal should be the only way to do things. Try the terminal is a terrible response to something that any reasonable person would expect to be possible with the GUI, and there's a bunch of things like this on linux. Changing file permissions. Configuring pipewire and ALSA. Configuring Xorg and Wayland. Editing system files(which is ironically made necessary by the lack of config GUI's). All of these tasks should have well designed, stable, mature GUI's to assist users. Until that happens, linux on desktop is an incomplete system, and it can't hope to compete.

Terminal should be only a faster/better option or for troubleshooting but not mandatory, the same as people use Windows ignoring PowerShell usually.

@@spartanbeef9491 The problem with a GUI is that it's inconsistent. Imagine you get an update and suddenly you have to relearn everything. Once you learn it, boom, next update, completely different. The commands you use on Linux 10 years ago still work today, no matter how much the GUI changed. While I agree these things should be possible with a GUI, however I disagree that it's an incomplete system without it. The command line is one of the superiorities of Linux over Windows.

​@@l4kr No, sorry. The reality is that GUI changes that completely break every HCI guidelines we've established over the years are vanishingly rare. I've never had a GUI update I couldn't relearn within a few minutes of clicking through the app. It feels like you're railing against a hypothetical scenario that just isn't much of a problem in reality. While we're on the subject of inconsistency, lets talk about the terminal, and how every single command has it's own syntax and flags. There's no consistency, and the learning process is opaque. If you're confronted with a new GUI you can learn just by clicking through it if the app is well designed. A new terminal command is completely impenetrable without the man page(assuming it's up to date) or a help command(assuming it exists), and even they aren't standardized. Another issue with the terminal is that for simple config tasks, its painfully slow. The terminal makes complex tasks fast, and simple tasks needlessly complex. Lets use setting audio sample rate as an example. This is a dead simple task which loads of people need to do on linux and windows to get the best audio quality on their system. Using the terminal I have to cd to the correct pulseaudio config file(Which you have to know from memory, or look up) open it in a text editor, search for the correct string(assuming you know what it is, otherwise good luck), and set it to the correct value(again, you have to know what this is, because pipewire doesn't provide a list of compatible values). As an added bonus, if you enter the wrong value, or do a typo you can completely break your audio, or make it silently fallback to a default config. On windows I can click the volume icon(An intuitive place to look for sound settings than I can work out without needing to memorize anything), open the device manager, open a device, click through a few tabs and select an option from a list of compatible values. It's just as fast or faster, requires way less knowledge on the users part, and can't brick your audio setup. Yes, the terminal is powerful, flexible and useful. It's an awesome tool and it should be desktop linux's biggest trump card. Instead it's wasted on awkwardly patching over massive gaps in usability in a futile effort to make up for missing basic features. We need to stop forcing the terminal to do things it's bad at and start focusing on what it's good at.

I didn't know that

I'm not sure, but I think he is trying to do something else. When I used Manjaro, often VLC wouldn't close properly. So, I'd do what I'd usually do in Windows. I'd go to System Monitor (Task Manager) and then try to end process. It wouldn't end it. It took me months before I figured out that I shouldn't click on End Process. Instead, when you right-click on that process, you should select Send Signal -> Kill. Edit: I thought that you were talking about Linus' problem with ending a certain process, my bad.

@@secretagent3712 that's... W-what? Why? So there's two way of killing a program but one works better than the other... Wut?

​@@Max128ping One of them is more 'polite' than the other. sigterm gives the program a chance to clean up after itself, so you usually want to try that one before going to sigkill.

@@thepi4587 WHy would anyone want to kill a process politely? If we are killing a process is because the process is frozen and would not act on the polite request. It makes no sense. Kill should nuke the process.

Xkill: I'm about to end this man's whole career

​@@mrsansiverius2083 Xkill has worked as reliably if not more so than End Process Tree in Task Manager for me. 10/10, would recommend.

U don't know how much fun I had with that tool

Pkill kills processes, not programs.

@@tobysmith3674 programs create processes.

Actually terminal is the biggest advantage of linux for me. I prefer to use terminal over GUI. That being said, I would rather have and easy no-brainer way of doing some basic things as an alternative to terminal, and I think Linus criticizing Linux is really deserved.

We had a Windows 95 computer when I was kid, I still remember struggling to remember the DOS commands needed to boot up a game disc. Once I was allowed to enter the internet and started using computers frequently on Windows XP 20 years ago, I never have had a desire to go back to needing to use command prompts.

The market for noob friendly Linux distro is 0 so nobody is bothering.

Its fine for total noobs too. I've installed it for plenty of non saavy people. Brodie is saavy but a noob to linux himself. Has been using linux for what? A year and a half. Maybe by his own logic he should wait a bit before having a Linux channel and be giving advice. Hell he didn't even know VIM had tabs till very recently.

This channel has been cataloging my Linux journey for about 3 years, but I don't see the point of gatekeeping.

@@davidgomez79 I want to live in a world where it's possible to talk competently about Linux without knowing a particular feature of a 30 year old terminal based text editor. Because in that world, Linux on Desktop may actually be relevant

Lots of maintainers in Manjaro forum are assholes to me, they are just not so friendly. After I switched to Arch Linux, no more unfriendly replies in their forum.

@@TheCalcaholic great job of misrepresenting dolt.

I have been using Linux for 25 years as a scientist and a programmer, and it's an amazing OS, the best I've used. You can get anything to run if you have the source code. Initially, DE's were practical because we could open more terminal windows, now it seems computer users want to do everything through a GUI. If that's what people want, there are OS'es that will work great for them, notably Windows and macOS.

Windows isn't perfect either, far from being perfect. And the end user don't have to be stupid, he can adapt and learn how specific things are done in a different OS.

@@kjeldgaard0 I don't use a DE nor that much GUI programs but when I did I never had problems with them, Gnome and KDE are perfectly fine DEs where you can basically do whatever you want.

Agreed. Manjaro isn't a good starting point (especially with what I hear about pamac). I don't understand why everyone has a problem with recommending Ubuntu based distros. Sometimes there is great value in something that just works.

so you've never saved .conf's before?

@@colto2312 I've always used the terminal for this, because it's easier for me than to physically go into the directory and edit it, because generally system config files aren't nested in a hierarchy of more than 2 folders. That's something I'm just used to though. Probably why I've never noticed it. Though that would definitely be useful.

@@colto2312 For me personally it's too slow to do it in GUI; not because I'm some 1337 hackerman, but because system folders have hundreds of folders to scroll through. For personal files it's faster to just open two Dolphin windows side-by-side and move them through GUI

@@BlazingMagpie ever hear of the type-through feature? I genuinely don't know if dolphin has it, but both thunar and nemo let you type as if you're searching to highlight your particular folder. So if i'm going to my systemd folder it goes: et {enter} sys {enter}

I see a lot of people talk about installing Ubuntu or Mint on their non technical parents/grandparents/friends computers, they never talk about the process of maintaining it they've just given themselves

@@BrodieRobertson I think that most technically inclined computer users get several calls on a yearly basis from relatives on how to fix their Windows computer or smartphone. I can't imagine how much worse that is with Linux. I know that a lot of people hate Canonical but they were truly had the right idea with what they promoted an idiot proof Linux operating system. I think that without them the Linux desktop would have been even more niche than it is now.

I think people have lost the meaning of technical. You can be a game engine developer, stats master or anything. It can still be frustrating if the tool you are not using doesn't work the way you expect it to.

There's more than just kernel updates, if any individual applications update you'll have to close and restart them for any changes to happen. Most of the time a reboot is quicker.

@@BrodieRobertson It depends on how you use your computer, and what kind of computer you have. I have computer with HDDs and run certain software on the background 24/7, and rarely leave any software running after I'm done using it, except browser. For normal desktop use with SSD reboot might be easier/faster.

The arch system i built doesn't have systemd and haven't required rebooting for the last few system updates.

But if it's a repeated action, let's say you offload your photos/videos after every shoot, rename and move then to a specific place scripting that will save more time the more times it's done. On the small scale the time difference is negligible or in favour of a gui if you're used to it

@@BrodieRobertson Ah, sure! For repeated tasks scripting in Bash is extremely useful. Maybe not elegant, but it gets the job done. Honestly I think everyone who wants to use computer efficiently needs to learn at least a bit of programming, just to be able to botch together something that will save them hours and hours on end in the long run. I do that all the time :D

The GUI path is caused by many focus groups over many years, it's as close to objective as you can really get with UX.

Command line? Pft... in my day we used to use punch cards and got the output printed on paper. Gen Xers and their fancy monitors....

@@BrodieRobertson well then those people should buy an Apple computer. Just kidding.

People like easy, fancy GUI = easy, people use fancy GUI, simple

@@accountid9681 speaking only for myself... GUI-based applications are less intuitive than command-line and terminal applications. Maybe it is the "ribbon-style" interface adopted by current applications.

My mom refuses to hook up a camcorder to the TV because she finds composite video connections intimidating. She's a well respected registered nurse of ~30 years in a field with both a high fatality rate and inordinately high emotional baggage (NICU). the moment you try to teach an ordinary user ANYTHING, their eyes glaze over. You're not fighting against a lack of learning, you're fighting against an active unwillingness to learn.

@@buca117 That's true and I think it's pointless to even try to fight against people's unwillingness to learn, if the simplest things for everyone else are somehow the most difficult for them. Still, there are people who absolutely want to learn how to solve problems, but there aren't enough straightforward guides for thigns like niche Linux apps or game configurations. And this is where a problem lies with lot of companies/developers who take 1 step forward, then 10 back, because user friendliness is always great, as long as it doesn't become forced idiot-proofing like Windows or MS's products.

Computers are weird

it works perfectly fine between qt and gtk tho?

_visible confusion_ I've never had an issue with Steam in Pop! OS Would you mind explaining, please? I'm genuinely curious. I'm relatively new to daily driving Linux (about a year now)

@@trajectoryunown they had a temporary bug with packaging Steam within their repos. Linus tried installing steam through apt, it couldnt do it and offered to remove his desktop environment, he didnt read what it was doing and agreed to it. The bug has been fixed now but it's all caught on camera in part 1 now and he had to switch to Manjaro Kde.

@@33KK hmm. are you sure? i confess, i havent tried it myself. but i read comments from people who said it didnt work and i imagined that was indeed the case.

@@iodreamify literally just tested drag and drop between dolphin and nautilus, works perfectly fine. On X11, not sure if it works on wayland

I recently built a desktop to learn linux and I've grown to appreciate the terminal in some use cases. I moved my windows os to an ssd in 2020 and COULD NOT access the game pass install folder on a different hdd. same microsoft account and I'm a complete stranger to my own computer. 250 gb managed by the trusted installer that I couldn't touch without some long convoluted process and programs. I ended up copy/pasting what I wanted to keep and formatting the drive. did the same swap on garuda like 2 weeks ago after changing from ubuntu ...chown user:user done. I am now in full control of everything on the ssd

In a KZfaq short he was configuring Pop OS. Not sure when the switch to Manjaro was made

@@twinversbr let's just say that it was after he typed "yes do as I say" into the terminal.

@@implicitmatrix1312 omg. using doas instead of sudo... lmao bro

@@ambarrlite I mean, having looked up what he did, it's unfortunate. There was temporary packaging bug in their repos with the Steam package. Pop shop threw a graphical error and wouldn't let him install Steam, so Linus went and tried 'sudo apt install steam' which gave him a *huge list of packages which would get removed* along with a warning (same color text as everything else). He types 'Yes, do as I say' and obviously it screws everything up. One of the Pop devs has already fixed it so it doesn't remove the necessary packages. But maybe the warning should be colored in red to make it stand out more? And why is an INSTALL command removing stuff. That is exactly the sort of problem a newbie would make.

I gui what u did

I agree, DEs like mint, gnome, etc still need a lot of work in that regard

couldn't have worded it better

"Linux", no Desktop environments.

@@heroe1486 tell me you're a Linux user without saying you're a Linux user

Got to look a little harder there are a few people that are jumping on the hate train and the videos are hilarious.

The thing is, it's an uphill battle. Many don't get to that point.

This. And that's what this whole thing is stupid. They expect to be comfortable in a new OS without putting any effort into it, like if it had to be a 1:1 equivalent to Windows, that's completely stupid. User friendly distros and DEs abstract everything from you and make everything accessible to inexperienced user but there is still a small learning that they aren't willing to take.

once you get used to something you usually substantially underestimate the learning curve. My first computer ran Debian, and I would have killed to just double click a .exe instead of spending hours trying to install mods for a game I like via the terminal. Now I love the terminal, and do everything from it, sometimes I even turn off my window manager entirely, and use a text interface, however I would never throw my worst enemy into that if they were coming from windows.

If you can click next you can install ubuntu

@@BrodieRobertson also, try installing windows 11 without a Microsoft online account, the dark pattern you have to go through is horrible ( it was like putting a fake account and password and after it gives you an error you can then go on without a Microsoft account, and yet they find this user friendly. I think they just got used to this kind of BS)

not to mention the UI on it is kind of jarring. Why the hell is there 2 right click menus. Also, why haven't they ditched control panel and use the new settings UI. Microsoft is making Windows 11 look like eye rape right now. They are like a downgraded Mac OS, so they ain't much better in the UI department either right now.

It's not that it's a bad experience but dealing with key issues, manual interventions among other issues can get really annoying but if you want to deal with those as a learning experience then go right ahead.

Or opensuse

But Linus can't seperate Fedora meme and Fedora distro

Really agree with this. The out of the box experience is pretty cohesive and vanilla. They're pretty quick to jump on the latest features too.

@@BrodieRobertson yea it's actually why I installed it. I used linux back in like 2009 never used redhat but I knew about fedora today. Linus bashed it during their challenge thing and it got me sort of wanting to run linux again so I installed fedora kde spin. It runs great.

they did say on the wan show that windows is also a mess

Mac OS doesn't have these UI problems though. I think Linus wants a Mac deep down now.

@@phoenixrising4995 bold of you to say it doesn't have UI problems when the notch is a thing

This is literally the only thing I hear about Manjaro lol

I use Arch but I decided to try Manjaro for a few months and honestly I don't see what's so bad about it.

Also using Manjaro on my laptop. Theo only issue i hat was that Dolphing couldnt be terminated so i had to reboot.

@@kanjakan it's made to make an advanced distro easier. It's posed as a stable distro but a lot of packages that get pushed can break your system, since they update in big, pseudo untested blocks, and manjaro has had a lot of known updates that straight up just brick or otherwise ruin your system. Ubuntu and Debian are meant to have upgrades less often and that means they're less likely to randomly break quickly. I've had to reinstall manjaro every few months because something breaks and I can't live without it and I'm not smart enough to fix it myself.

I think he would have given up during the installation

If those things don't matter to you then why use a terminal

Formed self proclamed windows "super user" here. I was the kind of guy that would install windows on every computer at my school for teachers and always carried an istallation drive. I also buld my first PC out of old parts and installed windows 7 and later windows 10 even with all the chashes that came with installing that on on 2 GB RAM computer. I decided to move to Linux after dual booting for a couple of months and I've been now a Linux only guy for 2 years.

@Black Future Archlinux GUI or Endeavour are best. These 2 are vanilla Archlinux. Garuda is not so vanilla, but better than Manjaro. I would have put Linus on Solus or Fedora Silverblue which is very solid/lots of rollback features.

@null There's nothing "wrong" with Arch or Gentoo based distros. I've installed and run Manjaro on several occasions and have found with the fact that it is a rolling distro and more on the bleeding edge software wise, that I've inevitably borked my system doing updates somewhere along the line. My main Linux system that I've used for the last four years has been Mint and I've had no such problems from doing updates. A new to Linux user is going to find having to be mindful of exactly which updates to apply and which to hold off on, like in a Arch based system, a bit of an alien concept, when they're used to a more "click the update button and forget it" situation like in Windows.

Windows users are "Winstitutionalized". They've been inside so long they can't make their way in the outside world anymore.

@@1pcfred "Winstitutionalized". Good one. I'll have to remember that.

Start with Linux Mint Cinnamon.

@@folksurvival That's what I'm gonna do. Out of all the videos I've watched, and articles I've read, Mint Cinnamon is recommended across the board as a good way to transition from Win.

@@fffrrraannkk I honestly think it's the best place to start. And not only to start but it's where a user can stay if they want.

Slightly off topic, but Porsches are actually very good to drive, people actually recommend learning manual transmission on a Porsche if you have the means as they are so easy to use and hard to mess up. Mustangs or Lamborghinis on the other hand...

He has wash and GO(Lang) on his hair, thats why.

It always looks weird lately.

@@BrodieRobertson time to shill some shampoo

A terminal doesn't help with that, if you don't understand a solution but copy and paste the commands nothing is different

@@BrodieRobertson yes, my point is exactly that, they want to prevent people from doing something insecure with the terminal, but that wont protect the users, that will just make then more vulnerable, or make then give up on using linux. actually, its easy to have the fame of an safer system when you are used only by people who know what they are doing... not to mention this magick thing called learning curve, how they expect people to learn if they assume people know how to use it.

That's what I did. You can not expect Linux to behave like Windows.

The problem is you can't really expect someone to do that, if you go into MacOS there are a lot of similarities between that and Windows.

​@@BrodieRobertson GNU/Linux was always terminal first operating system unlike MacOS and Windows, but ppl are more accustomed to GUI then TTY, can't blame them for that. But they should at least RTFM and only then say that something is broken.

@@poleprode for many people, an OS means GUI. For some of the new generation of users, the OS means touch-based UI and even using a mouse is archaic. The OS is there to do your work/play and not get in the way. The job is more important than the OS, the OS should be in the background and not get in the way of getting things done. Like in the case of cars, a manual transmission is just a fun novelty in a world that is moving to self-driven cars. Most people just want to get from point A to point B.

Why can't everyone be as sensible as you are?

@The Program By the same token, it's pure fantasy land for any new user to walk into an environment and expect things to work the way they believe they should instead of actually learning what they're doing. Trying to humor that sort of assumption is basically a cancer on actual usability and solid design. What we need to be doing is focusing hard on making things internally consistent, learnable and discoverable (where appropriate) rather than trying to shortcut the user past learning.

I think that's fair

I never had issues myself on Windows but I have heard problems from others.

Sleep and clipboard are both issues I see on every single OS. Even mobile phone OSes where sleep is supposed to be perfected.

Honestly the real issue is ACPI ( Advanced Configuration and Power Interface ). It's basically it's own Turing complete architecture ( ACPI machine language ) that you have to interpret from the ACPI tables which is basically a list of programs provided to you by the ACPI BIOS ( yes you read that right, the companies designing you bios can get arbitrary turing-complete code executed at kernel-privilege, fun ) that take input in the ACPI registers, then the interpreted code interacts with the ACPI BIOS and ACPI registers to be able to control the power/config of the machine. And the reason it is it's own architecture is to make the standard architecture-independent, now that would be fine, if all of that complexity was actually properly implemented everywhere but as you can guess since it's so complex it's implemented differently on different motherboards, differently enough to the point where it might not work. To quote Linus Torvalds: "a complete design disaster in every way", but hey at least when x86 becomes obsolete ACPI will still mostly work without changes to the spec.

What is meant by the terminal being a crutch is that a terminal is not a good UX experience, it's sort of a cop out answer to say it can just be done from the terminal.

I was also annoyed by that statement. You can't learn Linux if you don't embrace the terminal. In response to Brodie's video, people need to be tech-savvy nowadays if they want to stay relevant in their respective fields in the near future. Being able to type some commands in a terminal should be the bare minimum. If people truly can't do that, then we have bigger issues than Linux's market share.

@@rsmith31416 You really don't need to be tech savvy in most fields, that's due to companies purchasing GUI software that does everything they need.

It depends on what your goal with Linux is, is it to learn Linux or just effectively use it. What I'm saying about the terminal is if you're building something with the intention of it being user friendly than the terminal should be at the bottom of things a user needs

@@BrodieRobertson It depends on the field. There are fields that barely change (e.g. basic education). In such fields, it seems highly likely that educators and children will be able to rely entirely on purchased GUI software. However, it is not very realistic to wait until a company decides to write the GUI you need in many industries or in specialized areas. Instead, you have to learn what you have at your disposal and command line interfaces are often readily available. Furthermore, given the increasing number of areas adopting a computational "flavor", more people need to become tech savvy and to some extent, develop basic skills working with a terminal. This is already happening for debugging purposes or in other cases, looking to increase computational performance. I also have to say that reasonably competent people get used pretty quickly to the first interface they are exposed to. It is only when they're switching between interfaces that they seem uncomfortable with the change.

I don't think it's that much of a problem. Things that need root privileges to be made happen shouldn't be easily available. F4 is your friend. And bash autocompletion adds additional sanity check on what you're doing. If an address or command doesn't autocomplete after pressing Tab, you might've made some mistakes...