Spoiler . . . . . What about "...And she shall look on him with forgivness. And everybody will forgive and love. And he would be loved. But everything is OK, right? Can we rest now? Buffy... can we rest?" Everytime gets me when music starts in that scene... T____T

@@nansyraccoon7095 oh god, yes. Top 3 saddest for me

@@chanceneck8072 Pretty powerfull!

No spoiler, since it has just passed but "Wesley...why can't i stay?'

"Would you like me to lie to you now?"

I would probably argue that “Dead Things” is the darkest episode of Season 6 ... this one is the most tragic one.

Yes, James has said a number of times in various interviews and panels that it drove him to therapy. The story goes he remembered curling up in a ball and thinking if he hit his head on the floor hard enough he could just go away from it all. It was a seriously awful time for him.

Everytime new youtubers react to"Buffy"1 of the 1st(if not *the* 1st)things every veteran thinks is:"I can't wait to see them react to"Seeing Red"!"

yeah he was trying to see if she felt uncomfortable enough to look away as I always do with that scene (volume down as well ugh 😖)

Watching it for the first time in entirety, I still couldn't believe it happened so suddenly. I kind of assumed Warren had been following her down street with his new powers and firing off multiple shoots. That this was the first killing on this show by a villain with no supernatural or sci-fi abilities made it all the more shocking.

The difference is that they gave enough time to truly mourn Joyce.

Why should Dawn get treated any better than the fanbase?

@@Shadowman4710 big oofs right there

It’s what Shakespeare would do today...

"TO THE PAIN" as Westley once said

D’Hoffryn = Joss Whedon 👹

Filming this episode sent him to therapy

@@TabbyeLynne Watching him talk about this scene is heartbreaking. You can tell it really affected him.

James has mentioned in interviews that he started going to a therapist after production of this episode wrapped. Sarah has said that she and Freddie Prinze Jr won't let their kids watch it until they turn 18.

the same

While I could have done without the AR, I agree given the nature of the relationship, Spike's mindset, Buffy's history of questionable consent it wasn't really out of character. It's telling that Buffy defines love as based on truth, while Spike can't distinguish is from unrestrained lust. Which as Buffy points out burns up into nothing quickly. For an immortal who sees evil as the ultimate freedom he can't see that. I also think he about as surprised by his unwillingness to keep fighter her as her won refusal to give in. It's not just that he think she's bound to be wild like him if just admit to wanting it. He can't caring about someone enough to restrain himself when doesn't. Like he's failed at being free. Sort of "Conscience Makes Cowards of us All." So it's not surprising he'd blame on the chip rather his own feeling for Buffy. Agree with you about the red flags thought the episode.

The AR was particularly shocking to me because we've come to humanize Spike and this was a very rude awakening. My view on the AR being in an episode completely depends on how it's handled. When it first happened I paused it because I was having trouble going on after seeing that. I was feeling dubious about where the show could go from there, I didn't want the show attempt to justify or reason Spike's actions; so often rape or assault is used as a shock factor, not as a real and super violent traumatic experience. But I liked how they approached it in the season after, not making excuses, no blaming the victim, making him repent and not forcing anything from the characters that would be inappropriate. I should have known they would've thought about it - I don't think the show has ever done anything without the consequences being real. I have luckily never been raped but my best friend has and she found the scene tough but also realistic. She loves the show, from beginning to end. She could not understand how anyone could call themselves Team Spike in Buffy's romantic affairs after that though and I have to agree.

I think its a strong episode, it's just a tough episode emotionally.

me too!!!!

Same! Dang it Whedon not every relationship ends in misery! This season for me took that from a breaking of a happily ever after cliche to making his own freaking cliche. At such a high cost too.

It's in his contract now. Doing that scene messed him up, so he had to have therapy afterwards. James is a trooper, though. He really went all in to make that scene intense and frightening.

@@witchy.business Yeah while I can't see this particular assault scene felt all that gratuitous, there have been WAY too many cases of this happening. There were plenty of other ways they could have further his character arc or unshipping him from Buffy if it wasn't already obvious they weren't going to work. On a similar note, Tara's death may have also severed a purpose for Willow's character arc. Without spoiling anything there were hints of what might happen even before Tara arrived. However there too something else could have send Willow down this path without having to write Tara out of the show. Plus, even if she had to die it certainly didn't need to be so graphic or sudden. Not saying that was too much for me, but it might have made it easier for some viewers.

@@witchy.business I agree. It's not a particularly 'in character" moment for a character who's raison d'etre has been taking care of damaged women, if toxically...cause backstory people. I do see how you can make the case that he did it out of sheer desperation and panic and okay, I suppose you can argue that point if.....you do it sensitively and skillfully-which was NOT done here. This is pretty much the scene that destroyed Marti Noxon's career at Mutant Enemy... ...and it should have.

I agree it had to happen. I was unfortunately in relationship that had a lot of similarities to the way spike behaved in a relationship. Similar ending. Makes it really hard to watch but the same time it makes perfect sense. Especially if you understand psychology.

@@Shadowman4710 that has always been my take, because i view the story through the characters. I saw that scene as a moment of pure, blind madness for Spike. He has Buffy defending him from anya and visibly upset with his sleeping with anya (and admitting hurt and jealousy at the wedding), dawn telling him he hurt buffy and how could he... he believes she has feelings for him and that keeping the secret was one of the biggest reasons she denies it and called things off. He goes to talk to her, thinking maybe somehow it all can be okay for them. He has had a century loving, care taking, doing what it takes for the woman he loves. He has shown many times he can do good. But in this scene, ergh. Its like he loses control, his demon and human sides collide for those few seconds and its like he cant see or hear buffy at all in that moment. The second he realises what he almost did he is clearly horrified... his actions cant be excused by any means, but I can see how his character got to this moment, why it happened how it happened, for both characters and their awful abusive back and forth up to this point. For me, its horrible for both characters and I wish the writers had thought of something else. The fact this ‘plot’ was taken from a real life thing one of the female writers did with her ex (if i have sex with him one more time he will remember he loves me and it will be okay... where her ex had to push her away...) makes it worse. They made buffy a victim when she didnt need to be.

Its understandable as he did save her life in season 1.

...

I mean, I don't like that Jonathan was a part of it, although on the other hand he was clearly not comfortable with it, helped Buffy in the end and all... but I still find it weird that Jonathan was willing to try his hands at bad stuff even for a short time... But yeah, Warren is the worst! Well, him and Angelus (he also killed a beloved character). But Warren is for sure the absolulte worst!

@@ChevaliersEmeraude Warren was worse. He had a choice. The same can not be said for Angelus. Which is why I think that Angels actions in season 2 episode 10 of Angle is worse because he had a soul and chose evil.

@@cthulhucollector I kinda disagree with that assessment, the whole "Angel has no choice, Angelus is a different person". I feel like it's a claim that the show creators themselves disagree with. But it's hard to see it that way from an outside perspective

i know right... phew to be fair I held my hand before the screen at that bathroom scene to only see the reactions

Somebody chastised me recently for being a Spike fan while saying that Warren made my skin crawl. Seriously, if you can't tell the difference between the two of them at this point, we have nothing to say.

@@Shadowman4710 Biggest difference for me is one has a soul and one doesn't. One Is a cognizant monster the other is just a monster, by his own admission who doesn't really know better. I think people forget this and then decide it's the same or decide that Spike couldn't possibly do that. I'm still a fan of the character, I find him fascinating and I never forget what he is. Same time I feel really really bad for Buffy. We do sometimes get entangled with monsters when we're drowning.

@@barbarabaker1457 ITA. Spike is like the shark in "Jaws" if it fallen in love with Quint. He's not capable of understanding what he's doing is wrong, even if he comprehends that other people see it, hence the trying to curry favor by helping people in mid season five, not because it's the right thing to do, but because he knows Buffy would approve. Spike's a monster but whether he's an irredeemable one remains to be seen. I do hope I don't have to go the cliched route of pointing out the vast differences between unsouled Spike and unsouled Angel. That comparison has been done to death and Angel never wins it. On the other hand, fuck Warren Meers. Disgusting little sociopath.

@@Shadowman4710 If it helps. That's about what I was trying to say. I was agreeing with you and am still a fan. I love the Mayor too. It's the complexity for me. And yes (squeaky) disgusting little warren.

@@barbarabaker1457 Oh Richard Wilkins was utterly charming and possibly my favorite "Big Bad' of the series but I never got the sense he was redeemable by the end of S3. Even his relationship with Faith, which obviously meant a great deal to her smacked of self-interest, and I think it was meant to show that the Buffy/Giles relationship was what unconditional father/daughter love was supposed to be. Spike at this point isn't a villain but he's not a "good guy" either.

"Scarier" 😁👍

Dawn was the voice of the fandom come to life this episode and i love it

I've seen several interviews with Adam Busch. A more likable and decent sort of person you're not likely to find.

Actually, Joss stopped running the show after the 5th season. The last two seasons Marti Noxon was running the show (literally). That's why the show took such a dark turn the last two seasons.

@@kingbrutusxxvi he was still involved and it was still his vision even though he was around less. Also he has said in interviews that he had wanted to make Eric Balfour (Jesse) a regular for S1E1 to trick the audience into thinking he was going to stick around. It was absolutely Joss' idea to play that trick on the audience with Amber's name in the main credits.

I feel like Joss really screwed up in that case. People felt sympathy for him, because the show gave him a bunch of sympathetic traits from season 5 until this episode. He was willing to be tortured and possibly killed by Glory in order to keep Dawn's secret, he didn't get mad when Tara almost set him on fire and he stayed and acted as Dawn's protector out of guilt after Buffy died. Sure he wasn't a completely different character, but he'd changed enough that of course people were going to sympathise with him. Plus he's always been kind of fun. If viewers rooting for him during this season wasn't intentional then Joss and the writers screwed up.

@@wendyheatherwood Whedon also said the fans rejected Riley because they didn't want Buffy to be happy, so he was very out of touch by that point

@@wendyheatherwood No. It was necesary to make them remember he is a demon. Become a Vampire is a CURSE and it was, to me, the only way to force him to get "you know what" after everything he said to Angel and his own ego...

@@wendyheatherwood I don't think he's screwed up at all, and I think he was absolutely right like he usually is. Just because you disagree with something doesn't mean he was wrong, and it doesn't really work that way either because he's the showrunner and Creator and writer, and the thing he keeps having to remind everyone is that it's his show and it doesn't matter if you agree or disagree with what happens, because ultimately it is he who gets the final say and that is how it should be. More than anything else, Joss Whedon has repeatedly stressed and said that a showrunner cannot and must not let the fans dictate what happens, and the only thing that should ever take place is what the writers and showrunners want and what they've always intended. Sadly, there's been many times in his career when the Studio's he has worked for have demanded certain changes in certain characters doing certain things that he didn't want, which has led to a lot of animosity and a reputation for him being difficult that may have some merit in many instances but ultimately needs to be looked at fairly and judged objectively. James Marsters even reveals one of those frustrations in the now-infamous podcast he did which is always been taken out of context and never been fully talked about in which she reveals how Joss sort of but didn't really accosted him in a moment of anger after he had a lot of problems with the studio over the Spike character and the diverting directions between what he wanted and what they wanted. To be frankly honest, if it is true that Buffy and Spike getting together this season was only due to the studio wanting it, I think that turned out pretty go to the end, but it still doesn't take away from what Joss has always said about the writers needing to be able to be the only one who control the characters like so many other showrunners and writers get to do without any interference. I may not agree with every decision that Joss makes, but for everyone I disagree with in the way you are referring to, there are 10 more that I love more than any other in television or movie history.

@@zerogage877 He fired an actress for getting pregnant. He's not a hero

Rape= Blurring of lines.Ohh god,pls help me.Such BS.Just keep to your not having soul at that time defense l.Just dont go more south.For god's sake just please don't. I know that 'you' people will defend spike to your deaths but once again for god's sake,just don't.

@@Samuelissad Get over yourself.

I know what you mean. There is a lot of build up and blurred lines leading up to this, and the fact its a vampire and a slayer, not two regular joes in the real world. Their world, their rules have always been slightly different. Excusable, no. But understandable in how the two characters ended up here based on their relationships and psyches and emotions? Yeah, sadly.

@@Samuelissad are you ok? Sheesh... where does all this animosity for "us people" (whatever that means) come from?

@@holi117 exactly what I meant. I sure as heck don't condone what Spike did, and personally - he never recovered in my esteem of him... but, that doesn't mean understanding can't happen.

He went full psycho because he already was one.

Warren came out of the womb as a psycho.

I think you're way over estimating how much Warren cares about Andrew and Jonathon. They were a means to an end, hell he was prepared to toss Jonathon away as soon as he sensed he might be threat to him. I think it was more the getting beaten by a girl in front of the other two that sent him over the edge.

@@SweenyTodd98 hasn't that happened to him multiple times before?

@@christianschoff2490 Not to my memory. If she had caught up to him before this she would have already taken him down and sent him to jail. I think the only time was in Gone when they were invisible but 1. they were invisible and 2. she beat them all up not just Warren.

One thing I'll say about the "Game of Thrones" version of the Red Wedding....it was FAR more disturbing than in the book.

I already saw the title and before I clicked on the video, I needed like a couple of minutes to mentally prepare myself. I think I've been able to manage it more now like Kyle did but seeing Mackenzie's reaction over the Tara scene just triggered so many feels. 😫😫 But I like that Dawn excitement over the two getting back together. She's so smart, she needed no explanation lol

@@RitsychServare Yeah, what they said was so insightful I had to say more but I made it as cathartic as I could. I don't think you can be human and not get triggered by this. 🤗

I found his reaction to it afterwards fascinating. He seemed upset that he hurt her, but doesn't seem to comprehend how or even whose fault it really is, but feels bad because Buffy pleased makes him happy. It reminded me a lot of how he adjusted for Drusilla when got looked upset with him.

I know, I was waiting for that scene

I've heard numbers as high as 25% of the fanbase left after this point. It's really hard to tell though. Viewership had been slipping for a few years, due to a variety of reasons, the biggest being the network switch after season five.

Especially when you consider what a nice guy he is in real life. Although should we consider it mean that we didn't made him shoot his girlfriend? Lol