Building a House Start to Finish: Concrete Slab Compaction

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Pure Living for Life

Pure Living for Life

6 жыл бұрын

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Our home build from the beginning: • IT'S OFFICIAL - THE HO...
Today is the day we compact the sand under our slab. Prior to this we already compacted a healthy layer of 3/4 minus rock, but the last few inches we really want to be sand. Believe it or not, we barely had enough sand to do the job, and good thing because this phase of the project was done on not just a weekend, but a holiday weekend, which means we didn’t have the option of ordering another 10 yards!
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Пікірлер: 330
@bill45a1
@bill45a1 6 жыл бұрын
Wow, what a work crew. Jason and Anna know how to work, they're not afraid of it either! It's really looking like a garage! This has been a fun look into these people's lives. God bless them, their help, and their house!!!
@Tdaz250
@Tdaz250 6 жыл бұрын
Everyone posting their ideas please continue to post. It lets people see lots of different ways to do things
@amylou5778
@amylou5778 6 жыл бұрын
seriously cracked up when he was letting the compactor do the work and him on the phone!! lol funny skit.
@CoutessSchmusiPuh
@CoutessSchmusiPuh 6 жыл бұрын
Anna is the best!
@timframe6074
@timframe6074 6 жыл бұрын
So enjoying your videos. Reminds me of 20 years ago when we built our house . The blocks were called blue max,concrete was 64$ a yard. We built a 3400sq foot house for 68,000$ with no paid labor. We had tons of help family ,friends ,church family. What a idea to go help some one to learn something. I am very guilted in build whatever but I needed help ,huge undertaking. I love to see the progress .lots of work to come. Thanks. Our house appraised for 198,000. When we were done.
@davidmicheletti6292
@davidmicheletti6292 6 жыл бұрын
I placed foam under the floor of our home we built in 1990 and it has payed for itself many times over. That doesn't even count how warm it is when it -30 out.
@ralphfink8515
@ralphfink8515 6 жыл бұрын
Remember to pitch the floor to the garage doors for drainage. ;)
@FromThePrairies
@FromThePrairies 6 жыл бұрын
When my folks completely moved (never mind renovating) their kitchen the countertop installer commented that he loved doing owner/builder installs. The cabinetry was always bang on and even, unlike the slap and stick "professionals."
@warrenjames1962
@warrenjames1962 6 жыл бұрын
A big G'day from Australia! luvving the series big time! Here in Oz we call the "Jumping Jack" a "Wacker Packer"!! A few hours on one of those leaves you feeling a bit "wibbly"!! :-) Looking forward to what comes next!!
@felgercarb3803
@felgercarb3803 6 жыл бұрын
In Denmark it's called a Virgin
@totherarf
@totherarf 6 жыл бұрын
Whacker plate here in the UK ;O)
@HandfulOfTranquility
@HandfulOfTranquility 6 жыл бұрын
Home depot calls it a jumping jack, so its not just Jesse's term. Its what I've heard it called as well. I'm sure people using a Wacker Neuson compactor would call it a wacker packer though.
@Christodophilus
@Christodophilus 6 жыл бұрын
Phenomenal two days work. It's so much quicker with more camaraderie, when there's more hands to help.
@proffd972
@proffd972 6 жыл бұрын
Cool hand luke... "im shaking the bush boss. Im shaking the bush"
@VinceW187
@VinceW187 6 жыл бұрын
Your videos keep improving all the time. Progress on the house is looking amazing
@richardvandyke9578
@richardvandyke9578 6 жыл бұрын
The loader bucket on the backhoe has a strait up and down lip on the back side that is for back dragging. Control the amount by tilting the bucket fore and aft while in float mode. It would give you a fairly close grade and really cut down on the amount of screeding by hand.
@markn2904
@markn2904 6 жыл бұрын
You will do it! Thanks for sharing. Pizza & ice cream - YES!!!!
@dezfan
@dezfan 6 жыл бұрын
Shake, rattle, and roll! You guys are kicking ass and taking names!
@jeffreymorton1482
@jeffreymorton1482 6 жыл бұрын
congratulations on ur new home im so happy for yall its nice to see hard working couples so close to acheive goals together great job yall just awsome to see yall do this i know yall deserve it
@TropicalOrkids
@TropicalOrkids 6 жыл бұрын
It's coming along Great!!!! Can't wait to see it all finished.
@dmarnaud2
@dmarnaud2 6 жыл бұрын
It's 1am and Allysa stayed up to post it. thanks Allysa!
@McAVITYourWay.
@McAVITYourWay. 6 жыл бұрын
Great comment sir :)
@sean4328
@sean4328 6 жыл бұрын
dmarnaud2 remember, they are in pst, which is 1am est, but only 10pm pst, assuming you are in the est time zone.
@dmarnaud2
@dmarnaud2 6 жыл бұрын
@Highlight, I know and did the math, it was 1am pst at post time. I'm actually on New Zealand time so I keep Three world clocks going.
@sean4328
@sean4328 6 жыл бұрын
dmarnaud2 Ok. My apologies. You're correct
@theoldtimeywoodworker2488
@theoldtimeywoodworker2488 6 жыл бұрын
It's America, not Europe. Uploading takes hours there. I told a friend of mine in the US we have 400 mbit down and 40 mbit up I had to prove it for him to believe it.
@kylecompagno7233
@kylecompagno7233 6 жыл бұрын
Stayed up until 2 am just to watch y'alls videos. Haha your videos are amazing
@TheKrololo
@TheKrololo 6 жыл бұрын
it's 11 am in russia =) go to sleep
@bucktoothbettysboyfriend11
@bucktoothbettysboyfriend11 6 жыл бұрын
NORTH RUSSIA... LOL
@jca54
@jca54 6 жыл бұрын
A warm and friendly HI from the Netherlands, where we do not have enough space for projects like yours. I love your video's and the way you, as a couple, deal with the build, living off grid en enjoy each others company. My question: You sprinkle a lot of water in this fase of construction. How many times do you need to go to the public water supply? Or do you have another way to get so much water? By the way; the view is so great.... Best Regards, JC
@BraxxJuventa
@BraxxJuventa 6 жыл бұрын
Thumbs up for the hard workers!
@ienjoy8008s
@ienjoy8008s 6 жыл бұрын
Am I the only one who finds every royalty free music selection of theirs oddly satisfying
@wrenw7951
@wrenw7951 6 жыл бұрын
The house is looking great! Keep kicking butt!
@larrymacdonald4241
@larrymacdonald4241 6 жыл бұрын
Just in case no one has told you, or you dont know ( I have not watched all your video's ) when compacting gravel, water will help your compaction, it will make it much better, for large area's if you can, put a sprinkler on it or hose it down as you go. If your putting stone on native or virgin soil, a geo-textile will help with keeping your stone from migrating into the soil after 10 years or so, and provide a much stronger base to put a floor on. Less cracks in floor's as the textile almost makes the stone move as one unit, rather than all over the place. For stone, once you have your grade set, put a sprinkler or hose it down for hours, it will become almost as hard as concrete. Dont need a huge flow rate, nice little sprinkler, let it run all night if you can. If you on rock, geo-textile is not really needed, only for soil. At least when your done building, you can make money with the backhoe doing hourly rentals :) well you probably have a better job than that anyway but for me, it's a fun job :) I wont run anything but a Case Backhoe, Cats are too big and slow, JD's just dont have the power in the front a case does and I hate those stupid curved boom's on backhoe's. Nice job so far, cant wait to see it finished.
@moistbizkits
@moistbizkits 6 жыл бұрын
Awesome! You guys are such an inspiration for me to do more things for myself instead of paying others to do it for me. Even simple things like harvesting firewood and fixing things around the house. Thanks for the vids!
@mocweems
@mocweems 6 жыл бұрын
Love Jason's shirt! Representing some disc golf apparel!
@brandontaylor5324
@brandontaylor5324 6 жыл бұрын
I love these videos! You guys are so inspiring if nothing more just to get up and do something!
@smcox1991
@smcox1991 6 жыл бұрын
I like how the boss lady was sitting in the backhoe with her feet kicked up on the fender supervising 😂😂
@AuntieDeb71
@AuntieDeb71 6 жыл бұрын
Loved the Kilroy Was Here moment with sis.
@RevDeaconMichael
@RevDeaconMichael 6 жыл бұрын
The answer is always, bring more ice cream! :) Stoked to watch this all coming together!
@50shadesofgreen
@50shadesofgreen 6 жыл бұрын
You guys rock lol !! Awesome job today !! Thanks for sharing
@monser1410
@monser1410 6 жыл бұрын
Was that your sister on the other side of the wall? She was so funny 😂 brain freeze 😂😂😂😂😂
@HoosierHomesteaders
@HoosierHomesteaders 6 жыл бұрын
Looking better every video!
@drewk5929
@drewk5929 6 жыл бұрын
great job guys thanks for sharing your progress :)
@winfieldjohnson125
@winfieldjohnson125 6 жыл бұрын
Alyssa! Great shovel technique!
@Daynaleo1
@Daynaleo1 6 жыл бұрын
Looks like a giant kitty litter box for Bugaboo. LOL
@Jim-si7wz
@Jim-si7wz 6 жыл бұрын
That in Scotland is a thumper plate, the other one you have is a vibro plate, these were names that have been there from the vibrating roller machines, they were for the places the roller couldn't get to, but hey that's just Scotland.
@TheSphinnxx
@TheSphinnxx 6 жыл бұрын
As a construction carpenter in europe(NL), i find it odd you guys dont work with a set level that you mark on your walls. We are used to mark 1 meter above what will be your finished floor (groundlevel in this case i asume your garage floor) and use that level to work your way down and up. E.g. top of finished floor = MP +0, top of slab = MP +10mm, top of sand/underside slab =MP +100mm. That way you have 1 level you measure from and use your laser level more effeciently. Do you guys use this system in the states? Also if you dont use this system but are interested in how it works, send me a pm and ill tell you more in depth how to aplly it. Keep up the good work! Im really interested how the project continues.
@stellarpod
@stellarpod 6 жыл бұрын
Re: dimensioning: Dimensions on machine drawings are done differently than those on architectural drawings. Typically, dimension values are shown adjacent to the line on architectural drawings rather than breaking the line and putting them within. Also, CAD has kind of decreased the amount of artistic license available to the draftsman, as in many instances it has its own way of doing things. Steve
@LastChanceTinyHouse
@LastChanceTinyHouse 6 жыл бұрын
Great time laps. For the first part of the vid I was starting to think we weren't gonna get to see the editor. I'm glade I was wrong. You guys are doing great, I'm following you on Instagram and I know your way far ahead of this but it's still interesting to see it slowly come together.
@wvmontani
@wvmontani 6 жыл бұрын
Somebody should crossbreed that compacter with a Roomba. #MillionDollarIdea
@scottwilliams3665
@scottwilliams3665 6 жыл бұрын
good grief you don't get it . just stop
@nbco55
@nbco55 6 жыл бұрын
I love it, I've got both, maybe I should introduce them! ;)
@floydferguson5366
@floydferguson5366 6 жыл бұрын
Great video!
@jayherde0
@jayherde0 6 жыл бұрын
Ok, now I'm ready to see the new set of elephant pads :-)
@mitchellkrouth5083
@mitchellkrouth5083 6 жыл бұрын
A really big learning curve you boys never touched a shovel in your life
@ricktssf
@ricktssf 6 жыл бұрын
I helped to build a house in Africa.... Our compactors were made from gallon paint cans, filled with concrete with a stick shoved in.... 6 of us marched back and forward in a line to compact the sand.
@RobiSydney
@RobiSydney 6 жыл бұрын
I know you have already finished the sand. Next time, lay 2x2 board held at height using 1x2 stakes as skreed guides.. When we laid sand bed for fiberglass pools, we'd have a 2x2 rail down each side, set to proper level using the laser level. We'd usually leave the rails in when setting the pool, it was easy enough to also pull them out and fill in the 2x2 channel that was left.. We'd get really ticked off if the pool was over 1/4" out. usually it was less than 1/8" out. For a longer Skreed (over 12') we used a cut down scaffold board a 2"x12" cut down to 2"x6".
@MrLordBaer
@MrLordBaer 6 жыл бұрын
one thing you might want to have on hand is a cool hand book called " Handyman In-Your-Pocket' loaded with alot of info that are handy to have on hand . there should be apps that have the same info so you can have it on your phone
@colinblankenship2401
@colinblankenship2401 6 жыл бұрын
progress! yeah
@petyyras1
@petyyras1 6 жыл бұрын
if you dont want the sand to move under the feet then soak it in water, i mean really soak it, like make a lake there :P
@littlewhitedory1
@littlewhitedory1 6 жыл бұрын
Bugaboo must be thinking....Wow, these humans are crazy, there making the world's largest litter box for me!
@jeffreydonaldson576
@jeffreydonaldson576 6 жыл бұрын
BAck in the 1970's all we had for compactors was a 600 pound lawn roller man powered or 2 in square steel plate that up droped from 3 foot or so or just slamed it down
@brentderksen
@brentderksen 6 жыл бұрын
fun watching!
@veizour
@veizour 6 жыл бұрын
SO... MUCH.... WORK... nice work both of you, but wow that's a lot of work!
@SilverBack.
@SilverBack. 6 жыл бұрын
guy's it would have been easy if you had put down some lengths of timber that were the height that you wanted the sand then you could have just screed to that
@Slazlo-Brovnik
@Slazlo-Brovnik 6 жыл бұрын
You do realize, that they a) post what they have done 5-6 days ago b) already confirmed that they do not read the KZfaq comments section?
@richardgerbes7509
@richardgerbes7509 6 жыл бұрын
Völl Däpp true that but advice is universal, and anyone watching this looking for advice or ideas for there own projects may just get benifit from the little tid bits left in the comments. :)
@butopiatoo
@butopiatoo 6 жыл бұрын
Douglas Mungham or lasered in some rebar grade stakes 5x5 grid or something.
@3rdfloorartillery
@3rdfloorartillery 6 жыл бұрын
I was wondering the same thing, I use 3/4 in electrical conduit for underneath paver patios
@green9987
@green9987 6 жыл бұрын
I love how the sister comes over and helps build their dream house and my sister won't help me with my math homework..
@williamwatterson2499
@williamwatterson2499 6 жыл бұрын
I thought you said you needed to add another footing toward the back of your garage that you had forgotten before. Would it not be easier to add it before you compact everything else?
@davidfinn3771
@davidfinn3771 6 жыл бұрын
In Ireland the jumping jack is called paddy's motorbike
@Joat2
@Joat2 6 жыл бұрын
I have a great pizza recipe once you get your kitchen built!
@wallystoolshed7050
@wallystoolshed7050 6 жыл бұрын
Larry, cement is to concrete as flour is to bread. It is one of the ingredients in concrete. It looks like they added close to 2 feet of fill. They are wise to be tamping the fill like they are doing. this will eliminate future voids under the concrete after the fill does settle. Also, getting it level as possible makes it easier for laying the styrofoam down. A better method would have been to make the area level then put down the styrofoam, then the pex tubing and then build it up with a foot of sand. This would store the heat for days and use less energy. In my own 30 x 50 shop, I did it like they are doing, laying the pex right under the concrete on top of the styrofoam. The floor heats up great, and I love it, but i know i am using more energy to keep it heated than if I had all that sand below for heat storage.
@blakerugg
@blakerugg 6 жыл бұрын
plate compactors are good for much more than 2-3" of compaction when used with 3/4 dense grade
@Coreydoering
@Coreydoering 6 жыл бұрын
love your video's
@Crookedhalo1337
@Crookedhalo1337 6 жыл бұрын
for some reason youtube insisted I watch this, so I left a comment cause building your own house is pretty cool
@terrylemire1991
@terrylemire1991 6 жыл бұрын
I am always checking in on my youTube for your latest video because one of these times I hope to be the first view. But every time I see the new video, it's like Oh crap already 21 thousand views already. Well maybe next time.
@rbarger71
@rbarger71 6 жыл бұрын
I think compacting serves two purposes. It allows you to use less concrete which is more expensive than rock and/or sand. Also it keeps the concrete from cracking so soon, but no matter what you do, it will eventually crack.
@parallelburrito
@parallelburrito 6 жыл бұрын
You're doing this job as if it's going to be an industrial slab that heavy fork lifts will be driving on all day. The only thing you'll have to worry about is the extra cost of your mortgage.
@sweetcanada17
@sweetcanada17 6 жыл бұрын
Parallel Burrito - what mortgage?
@parallelburrito
@parallelburrito 6 жыл бұрын
The construction loan they have taken out to build this place. DUH
@craigmooring2091
@craigmooring2091 6 жыл бұрын
Aha! Jesse is an alien. He let it slip at 19:58 when he said "All my legs are covered in sand." Not 'both', but 'all'.
@VCGConstruction
@VCGConstruction 6 жыл бұрын
Great video! Just found your channel! Keep up the good work! Hopefully I can get there one day!!!
@BenKempa
@BenKempa 6 жыл бұрын
VCG Construction iiiiii
@Steviedatv
@Steviedatv 6 жыл бұрын
Reading architectural plans from a Iphone. That is impressing.
@OldMajor
@OldMajor 6 жыл бұрын
Remember to "Pitch" the Drain Lines! Drain pipe has to be sloped a minimum of 1/4-inch per foot and a maximum of three inches per foot.
@petergillock9533
@petergillock9533 6 жыл бұрын
Animal Farm I'm curious, why would there be a maximum slope on drain pipe?
@thediggenman2438
@thediggenman2438 6 жыл бұрын
Peter Gillock too much slope can cause the liquids to move faster than the solids, causing the solids to stay behind. Over time this has the potential to cause blockages.
@petergillock9533
@petergillock9533 6 жыл бұрын
the diggenman Interesting. Thanks for the explanation.
@OldMajor
@OldMajor 6 жыл бұрын
You want liquid and Solids moving together!
@billmoran3812
@billmoran3812 6 жыл бұрын
4" and larger pipe can be pitched 1/8" / ft.
@htmagic
@htmagic 6 жыл бұрын
It's exciting to see the transformation from a construction pit to a garage floor. By now you probably have concrete but it is still exciting to watch.
@mikewilliams7825
@mikewilliams7825 6 жыл бұрын
Screeding is a good idea, although i think it would have been easier if you had driven a grade stake for the man away from the wall to give him an idea of thickness. Just fyi i could be productive somewhere in my own life but id rather watch this
@mikea1893
@mikea1893 6 жыл бұрын
one more thing if you have to us wire mesh for the slab i would put it in now are you putting down styrene under the slab? vapes barer?
@christopherstube9473
@christopherstube9473 6 жыл бұрын
Advanced sand castle building!
@charlescompton4495
@charlescompton4495 6 жыл бұрын
So after you screed the sand just how much did it compact? We compacted bank run (sand and gravel) and you the limestone (it looked like) but when it comes to sand it doesn't compact all that much after screeding a thin layer. Greg
@joeworden825
@joeworden825 6 жыл бұрын
Amazing job on the sand screening. I rocked my yard and I'm nowhere near as level as you obtained(but it didn't have to be either). Still great job! Why did you put alyssa on second shift? hehehe
@601salsa
@601salsa 6 жыл бұрын
Yeah kitty litter
@snakelover09
@snakelover09 6 жыл бұрын
I look forward to these videos everyday. I re-watched the Land tour video from over a year ago to remind myself of the progress you guys have made. Made me quite emotional if I'm honest.
@LanceSheppard
@LanceSheppard 6 жыл бұрын
Zaappp !!! I just died! That was a good one 😂😂😂
@theoldtimeywoodworker2488
@theoldtimeywoodworker2488 6 жыл бұрын
Do you wanna know what's wrong with today's generation? This is what's wrong with today's generation!
@AnarchyEnsues
@AnarchyEnsues 6 жыл бұрын
when you calculate material. its better to calculate based on weight find the compacted density of the material and then calculate how much you need. just fyi its always better to have left over expensive fill at the end of the day when you leave a job
@MrGoofee121
@MrGoofee121 6 жыл бұрын
I know it is a little late in the game. I just started watching your journey the other day. With that said. Have you considered using a water level for checking height? Mother natures level works with laser precision. This is coming along so well. I get to live vicariously through your videos. Such is office life. Cheers The weatherman.
@edbenson98
@edbenson98 6 жыл бұрын
I scream, you scream, we all scream, for ice cream! #Jesse #PLFL #225K
@billsargent3407
@billsargent3407 6 жыл бұрын
Good friggin job, I had some anti-troll reverse snark thing going but really? you don't need it. Nice Job
@MrTonybc
@MrTonybc 6 жыл бұрын
Hey it's bobby hill
@Mr.Uninteresting
@Mr.Uninteresting 6 жыл бұрын
I'm sure it's not as easy as you make it, good work :)
@nickjm37fordel1
@nickjm37fordel1 6 жыл бұрын
If this is the way all log homes are built, count me out !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
@nickjm37fordel1
@nickjm37fordel1 6 жыл бұрын
Avenging Angel Thank you😃
@nickjm37fordel1
@nickjm37fordel1 6 жыл бұрын
Bye Again, please stay there !
@lucasfrick731
@lucasfrick731 6 жыл бұрын
Hey I just started watching a bunch of your videos, love them! Just curious about your careers. I'm sure you've prob answerd this question but What do you guys do for a living and how much you work. Sorry If that's too personal but I'm a young guy with these types of dreams and you guys have it going on and inspire me.
@taconoc1180
@taconoc1180 6 жыл бұрын
You say wheel bar-o, I say wheel bear-o
@epia125
@epia125 6 жыл бұрын
Not that I blame them, but I believe the comments are being curated.
@PolymathPete
@PolymathPete 6 жыл бұрын
4 inch is pretty small for the main collection line, we used 8 inch for our main sanitary line under the slab and 6 inch for the gray water line you can have a look at how we do it in Poland with gasketed fittings in ep 38 on my channel : )
@PolymathPete
@PolymathPete 6 жыл бұрын
Also the smaller the pipe the bigger drop angle you have to use. If your using 4 inch do you plan to go over 2% on your angle?
@robertw.1499
@robertw.1499 6 жыл бұрын
Have you calculated a fall in the piping to guarantee the downhill flow of all waste water? Loving the updates 👍
@hermazon
@hermazon 6 жыл бұрын
Having done soil compaction testing I found jumping jacks are limited in percent compaction they achieve. Seems they are best in smoothing over the surface. No sense in overdoing jumping jack usage. Heavy equipment, vibratory rollers are needed to get real structural compaction. I would minimize the fill layers above undisturbed ground. You're using good fill materials I don't think there will be problems. Make sure you are taking measures to prevent the concrete slab from cracking as it drys before and after pouring. Let all excess water drain from the pad before pouring. You are looking very good to say the least.
@borthewolf3376
@borthewolf3376 6 жыл бұрын
Shouldn't the plumbing go 2 feet or more below floor level to "isolate" it and protect it from freezing?. Or is the garage heated all winter? In my neck of the woods we always put in plumbing first, before aggregate and compacting.
@beachlife1411
@beachlife1411 6 жыл бұрын
Nice
@Justinofalltrades1
@Justinofalltrades1 6 жыл бұрын
does the inside of the icf's get covered with something eventually?
@Dave-md5ow
@Dave-md5ow 6 жыл бұрын
So many meal breaks and we in you tube world are missing out on the Tamales, and so forth. :((
@Blenderite
@Blenderite 6 жыл бұрын
Jesse's choice of shoes has always confused me.
@rokislotisxx5774
@rokislotisxx5774 6 жыл бұрын
there romeos, not shoes, their Georgia work boots just mid length slip on uppers uppers
@kidtiz1
@kidtiz1 6 жыл бұрын
Something you could have done to make leveling the sand easier is for some pipe the thickness you need aand use them to have a level to screed to
@philsbbs
@philsbbs 6 жыл бұрын
Wonder how much weight you have both lost with all this hard work. You must be super fit now. Love the videos.
@rhadamesasenjo79
@rhadamesasenjo79 6 жыл бұрын
I'll provably eventually develop brain damage from trying hard to figure why they do it differently from what I think its best. Of course, I'm not a builder, architect, or in any profession which deals with construction. But, I fancy myself having lots of commonsense. All that sand and gravel, and the waste piping not buried prior to compacting, makes no sense. But, again, experts need not educate my butt on the finer points of this total overkill. I'll suffer silently and wait for the final outcome. Amen.
@tropifiori
@tropifiori 6 жыл бұрын
I am thinking of pouring a slab for a boathouse. I never saw anyone compact gravel or put sand over gravel for a slab. Is this a specialized sort of application? Why put foam under the concrete? Foam is compressible? Won't it make it easier to crack the slab. I am not a concrete guy. Any thoughts?
@benthere8051
@benthere8051 6 жыл бұрын
Question - If you had to do it over again: Would you have not poured concrete on the open face of the house to allow unimpeded access to the interior of the site? Could you have laid the rebar but not formed it and poured it just to ensure that it would be incorporated into the structure at a later date?
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