Honestly Cadsuane was the better advisor, simply because she absolutely refused to put up with any of Rand's or anyone else's shit and didn't let anything get in the way of her goals.

Cadsuane angered Rand so much he nearly willed her out of existence, and banished her. I dunno if that is enough to tip the scales but it's pretty big.

Cadsuane.

I'd have to give it to Cadsuane simply due to the fact that she's with Rand for longer, and during arguably more critical moments in his development than Moiraine. They took totally different approaches, with Cadsuane antagonizing Rand in a way we didn't really see with Moiraine. Also, Cadsuane never lets personal affection for Rand interfere with her plans for him.

Cadsuane, but that doesn't mean I like her character better than Moraine.

I almost wish we had a scene of him doing it. Palpatine would approve

he should have opened a gate into Tel'aran'rhiod the first time she tried to bully him, before she could travel, pushed her through and left her there.

Rafe and her are sharing emails.

Ariel Burgess made it! She does amazing WoT art

She would be perfect for the role.

She'd be absofrickinlutely perfect as Cadsuane.

How would it have gone differently? A bunch of Emond's Field redshirts would have died. That's it. Maybe Tam's life (assuming that the Pattern would not have had Nynaeve take a stab at treating his wound and subconsciously Heal him like she has been doing over a decade or so by that point). But Tam dying only gives Rand one less reason to stay in the Two Rivers. He and Tam escaped without any help from Moiraine or Lan, and there is no word of them doing anything to save Mat or Perrin either. Cadsuane did not refine Moiraine's teachings, she course corrected the bad path Moiraine sent Rand down with her toxic guidance and manipulation attempts.

@@Gunleaver if Moraine wasn't there, Tam would have died, most of the Emond's Fielders probably would have died, and it's entirely unlikely that the boys would have left as quickly as they did, if even at all. on top of that, Egwene most likely would have died when she started channelling, as that happens to most of those born with the spark and Nynaeve outright admits to herself that she probably wouldn't have been able to do anything about it. It's only thanks to Moraine that the EF5 made it out of 2 Rivers fast enough to escape the Trolloc net closing on them, without her they never would have even made it past Tairen Ferry, and even if the 4 decided to leave that night, and Thom would have decided to accompany them (unlikely, since his primary motivation at the time was because Moraine was Aes Sedai and she was manipulating 3 boys that reminded him of his nephew) then they'd be traveling mostly on foot as fast as their slowest member unless they decided to steal some horses. They wouldn't be able to escape the Drakgar, they wouldn't have escaped the Trollocs all the times they did until the fellowship was scattered at Aridhol, and everything else that's dependent on Moraine and Lan in the first book. it's established via the Travelling Stone in tGH when Rand and the other Hunters of the Horn experienced all those countless other What If? lives that literally every single one that Rand sees ends in his death and the the Shadow's victory, including all the ones where he didn't leave 2 Rivers immediately and were helped by Moraine, and even in this timeline victory isn't assured until the moment Rand shoves Satan back into his cage and seals him for good. She is quite literally the only reason why Rand and the others lived long enough to even make it *Baerlon*, let alone everything else the party accomplishes. Also sidenote, i've read some of your other comments on this video and my god you dickride Cadsuane hard enough that i wonder if you get a commission for it

@@johndunn1625 The question is not, did Moiraine do good stuff, it is how good an advisor she is, and how she compares to Cadsuane in that regard. As far as your impression of my opinion of Cadsuane, I am not under any obligation to give a nuanced and thorough explanation of my opinions of the pros and cons of her as a character and a person. This is a particular discussion about a particular aspect of the story and a lot of people are making the same immature complaint based on the same utterly stupid things. So, yes, I am going to be weighing heavily on the positives of her in THIS debate, because she IS the superior advisor! Moiraine was the, at best, nursery school teacher, and Cadsuane is the college professor. Jordan had Moiraine there to guide the kids taking their babysteps, and he brought Cadsuane in to teach the graduate program. Your argument is basically "With his mom, he would have starved to death as a baby and would never have learned to walk. She was there for him every minute of every day, he would never have learned to walk without her. She is clearly the superior choice compared to his faculty advisor in grad school!" when the discussion is, who is a better teacher, the high school dropout mother, or the professor with multiple doctorates. Literally nothing you said is an argument for how good an advisor Moiraine is. At best she's a thug. You can appreciate the services of a thug, but you don't go to them for advice. Moiraine was a bad advisor in more than one way: the first way, she simply gave bad advice and in the second way, she was not good at the other functions of the job. Like gaining the trust and confidence of the most important people in the world. You could be the most brilliant advisor in creation, but if you're a shifty, two-faced and clearly compromised individual, no one is going to listen to your advice. Moiraine's problem is what everyone dumps on Cadsuane for - thinking she is the best and superior to Rand & co, that she has the right to be treated as a higher being and everyone should just listen to her. She gives the boys roofie trackers, and then, after she narrows down which one is the Dragon Reborn, is stupid enough to TELL HIM that she was trying to undermine his free will. Then, when he was receptive to her advice and wanted some guidance, she avoided him so she would not have to tell him more than she was ready to let him know, until he was fed up with her. She proved she had no idea what to do next in the mountain camp so Rand went off on his own and got Callandor and killed Baalzamon, and she still kept trying to gaslight him, so he ignored her efforts, turned to other sources, did his own research, and came up with a much better plan of action that, instead of getting his soldiers killed fighting one of the best Forsaken generals, he got a tutor in channeling (which Moiraine learned about and did nothing to help him with, because she did not want to be embarrassed by Asmodean's superior knowledge) a huge army of the best warriors in the world behind him (which Moiraine said he did not need), had an army in Cairhien to defend against Couladin's attacks, and because he sent the army with orders to feed the hungry (which Moiraine called senseless) they offered him the throne. Then Illian offered him the crown, after he killed Sammael, because of the grain trade he ordered, which Moiraine thought was unimportant. In Rhuidean, she tried to persuade him not to bring the Aiel into the wetlands, because he would ruin Siuan's plan to convince the world she had him under control, and when she realized she had so poisoned the well that Rand would never listen to her except under his own conditions, and that she had absolutely no way to make him do anything she wanted, she utterly surrendered and eventually had to fake her own death so he would fully trust her again. You can say a lot of good things about Moiraine, but she was a shit advisor.

That sounds like (with no disrespect intended; I like both but WoT far surpasses) what the day in Game of Thrones: "When a Targaryen is born, the Gods toss a coin." Come to think of it; imagine if Mat (my favorite character from the first book) had a hand in deciding that coin toss. On its edge, most/least likely 😉🙃

It's also funny you say that- I woke up this morning with the same intention. I can't find him though; apparently he's in hiding (not from me! But that's the kind of troubles going on....). But of course, this is a true story..... but that's the best kind to turn to fiction, right? Look at the way Robert Jordan turned his experiences in Vietnam and as a theoretical physicist into some of the aspects of the WoT. I also study military history and theoretical physics....and I wonder if the books didn't on some way impact me later in life. This is the kind of effect Mr. Jordan's works may have had....I did start reading them when I was about 13. Anywayz: if only I were Nae'Blis I could wake up and put Compulsion on this jerk that stole $800 from us....ah well. Reality accrues.....until the next book! Read and write and video on (in Canadian street slang you'd say 'up' not 'on' just for yer edification 🙃)! ✌️

Agreed, Cadsuane is somewhat strong, probably the same as Elayne in power, but she has a lot of experience behind her, and very likely an angreal as NB mentioned, that being said, she's a bully, and Tam tells her exactly how much of a bully she is, grabbing those that cannot defend against her and doing whatever she wants to them. This is one of the reasons why most women in power in WoT series are bullies, the very nature of saidar is to surrender, to submit. And honestly? Most women in power in WoT, really suck at being in charge, they complicate things so much.

Oh yeah that was perfect scene I loved it so much

Because her reaction is totally consistent for a bully who has all the power in that situation :eyeroll: A bully abuses their power or superior strength because they can, for the thrill of it. Cadsuane's actions are all driven by her goal to help Rand. She promises him that what she does will be for HIS good, no one else's, and she is incapable of breaking a promise. She might be mistaken about what he needs, but because of that promise, her every action is taken with Rand's benefit in mind. And she was RIGHT to be mad at Tam! He did the one thing she told him not to do - mention her role in bringing him to Rand - and it sent Rand off on the warpath! Tam nearly doomed the world because he didn't listen to her. And 99.9% of all other Aes Sedai would have punished him for talking back, and definitely for disobedience. You can argue that she should have told him why he shouldn't mention her, but Cadsuane was trying to get Rand to remember his humanity by reconnecting him with the most important person in his life who had nothing to do with his career as the Dragon Reborn. Tam is not a psychiatrist or a professional therapist. He can't help Rand by diagnosing and treating his mental condition. The way he can help Rand is through love. Briefing him about his son's mental state, his paranoia and capacity for violence can only hurt Tam's ability to connect. Tam even tries to turn the blame on Cadsuane, saying she's been there all this time and he hasn't. Yeah, no shit, Tam! So maybe you should have LISTENED TO HER and followed her advice! Maybe being around Rand for the last few months when you have not seen him for two years is EXACTLY why you should not take it on yourself to do the opposite of what she suggested!

@@Gunleaver Tam may not have seen Rand for 2 years but, he raised the boy into the man he became when he left the Two Rivers, Cadsuane however, has been a thorn in Rand's back since she came up, while her actions may be aimed at rand's well-being (which I really doubt) her goal is to try save the world. I do not recall Cadsuane making any oath or promise for Rand's well-being as you mentioned, if she did, please refresh my memory on which book it happened. In fact, Cadsuane blundered so bad in her treatment of Rand that she almost got everyone killed. One single action from her would have redeemed her at a crucial time, when Rand almost killed Min, if Cadsuane had apologized to him for her failure to keep the Domination Band safe, that would have turned his lack of trust around, but Cadsuane being Aes Sedai and prideful just made it worse. Moiraine did learn this in book 5 I believe, she humbles herself and allows Rand to trust on her more. When Cadsuane brought Tam to meet Rand, she should have disclosed everything that happened to him, not telling Tam about his state, is the same as doing surgery blindfolded, how can anyone help someone when no warning of his/her state is revealed? Once again, her pride made it worse. Glad Tam put her in her place. 👍

@@LoneTiger But the point is Tam is not a surgeon! He is not supposed to be doing surgery, he is supposed to be connecting with Rand on a human level as father to son. The point is that he is something pure and honest from Rand's prior life, untainted by all the baggage of his trauma as the Dragon Reborn. As you say, he raised Rand for 19 years. There have to be a million things they can talk about OTHER THAN Cadsuane. All he had to do was not mention her, just like the Aes Sedai who has seen him more recently told him not to do! How is Rand supposed to be swayed by his father's love, if his father is looking at him like a monster or is cautious and wary because Cadsuane warned Tam about his paranoia and tendency to violence? Hell, even Tam being shocked at Rand's new aspect might have been a plus, because it could have sent a message to Rand how far he has fallen, where all the other people he loves have sort of become used to it. "One single action from her would have redeemed her at a crucial time, when Rand almost killed Min, if Cadsuane had apologized to him for her failure to keep the Domination Band safe, that would have turned his lack of trust around," Bullshit. He was looking for someone to blame. And that might have been a mistake and it might have just been bad writing, but when Rand accuses you of something, trying to deny responsibility is generally a good move, especially with his paranoia and lack of forgiveness. Cadsuane is aware of Rand's tendency to lash out when he is mad at people for things he should not be mad over, she chastises him for it in the prior book. Rand faults her for not being omnisicient and omnipotent, for not being able to stop the same people who freed Semirhage and got her into his rooms. Don't forget, it was Rand who refused to allow anything to be done with Semirhage, who insisted on keeping her prisoner. If she had been executed or turned over to the Tower for stilling, she would not have been in a position to do anything to him. "Moiraine did learn this in book 5 I believe, she humbles herself and allows Rand to trust on her more." Again, Bullshit. Moiraine was faking, she herself tells Egwene that she is obeying Rand because that's how you control saidar, by surrendering. Where was that humility when she takes it on herself to engineer the confrontation with Lanfear without telling Rand anything, effectively taking away his choices and then leaving a letter blaming him for the outcome? Anyway are you really arguing that Moiraine is superior because she learned something after a year and a half with Rand, and Cadsuane did not learn that in a couple of months? "while her actions may be aimed at rand's well-being (which I really doubt)" I can't help if you refuse to accept the rules of the story, which is that Aes Sedai cannot lie. "her goal is to try save the world." Whatever her motivation, she promises that her actions WILL be for his benefit and no one else's. "I do not recall Cadsuane making any oath or promise for Rand's well-being as you mentioned," Then stop arguing with people who do remember the contents. "if she did, please refresh my memory on which book it happened." The Path of Daggers. Chapter 27, "The Bargain" when he asks Cadsuane to be his Aes Sedai advisor and she promises that in order to assuage his fears that she might try to manipulate him or use him for her own agenda, as Moiraine, Siuan and every other Aes Sedai he has dealt with has. "In fact, Cadsuane blundered so bad in her treatment of Rand that she almost got everyone killed." Bullshit. How? She is not the one who hurt him or traumatized him. She did not teach him to be paranoid and wary of everyone or teach him to shut away his emotions so he loses touch with his humanity. Cadsuane is the only person outside the Aiel to recognize that problem and try to do something about it. Sorilea recognizes this about her and agrees and supports her efforts. So does Min and Nynaeve. They don't like Cadsuane and they might not understand the scope of the problem the way she does, but they go to her in the end, because they recognize that she is the only one with a chance to get through to him, the only one who might have a clue how to help him. And although Brandon Sanderson never acknowledges that she is right, the story does, by making Tam so helpful to Rand. Cadsuane was the one who realized he needed Tam. Not Min, who was closest to him and knew him best, not Nynaeve, who knew Tam and was familiar with their relationship, Cadsuane. She only failed at her self-appointed mission to help Rand, because the task before her was impossible. She herself acknowledged that it was nearly impossible when she started. Robert Jordan wrote a story of a man placed in an impossible position, where many of his best efforts blew up in his face, where he was made to suffer trauma, both physical and emotional, almost beyond the limits of human endurance, but a whole lot of spoiled millennial readers want to put all the blame on a woman who failed to kiss his ass, because they resent her treating him like a normal human being whose shit does, in fact, stink.

Without Cadsuane, Rand would have died from the dagger wound. He also would have been stuck in a prison cell in Far Madding. Thirdly, he would have been killed when healing the taint on Saidin. Basically, without her, he'd have been dead several times over.

@@seanlamont8501 all good points but not fully relevant to what I said ☺️ Almost every character would have died without the aid of someone else at some point. Egwene would have been killed in her sleep in bed if Gawyn hadn't fought off her attackers but that doesn't mean you have to like his character or change how irritating everything about him is 😅

@@GingerBeardedGeek It's particularly relevant because her personality is the vehicle for those accomplishments. It was her bullying that got Rand where he ended up. He even admitted it to Egwene. Most of the Ashaman needed humbling at some point and no one did that better than her. As for Aes Sedai and their abuse of political power, one could say the same of any other noble or monarch. The Seanchan and Tyrans especially. Im so tired of people treating Rand as if hes a victim. He's Lews Therin Telamon reborn, the most powerful Aes Sedai from the Age of Legends. A man who's power and authority went unchecked until the day he died. I think he can handle a snooty Aes Sedai or two. Look at the way Gareth Bryne handled them . He never even got irritated. He just smiled and nodded not paying them any mind. Isn't that how most men with annoying women?

@@seanlamont8501 it’s curious. Had Cadsuane not been there, would Rand have still taken the wound? The path they took and the formation He, Darlin, Riotin, the aes sedai and Min took were at her direction.

Your entire framework for the Aes Sedai is so flawed one might wonder if you had read a single novel at all. Let me explain something to you, dummy! Men were Aes Sedai too. That was before the breaking. Have I tickled your small mind yet? The "servants" were corrupted cuz that's what evil do. I mean you had crazy bitch Lanfear and crazy ass Ishamael. This whole series is about intelligent people being more smart than the last life they lived. Lol. And I'm here for it.

Eh, you could almost argue that her machinations are what pushed him there in the first place. If she hadn't been there, he never almost snaps and goes to destroy the world. Without that, he never goes zen. Everything that happened, needed to happen.

Rand was more comfortable around Moiraine once she swore fealty to him than he was around Cadsuane who was clearly more competent and less impressed by him, after his trauma at the hands of the Tower sisters. That is not the same thing as trust and respect. Arguably he respected Cadsuane a lot more, since he asked for her help and agreed to her conditions, while he forced Moiraine to grovel and accept his terms.

Never gives advice? - warned Rand not to use balefire - warned Rand about the flaw in Callandor - advised him to keep his Bargain with the Sea Folk - advised him not to let everyone following his order get to his head, and tried to make him understand the value of flexibility - advised him to pay attention to Bera instead of freaking out over a random & not-urgent piece of news - advised him that his Aes Sedai minions had actually done what he told them and to hold to the terms he offered when his enemies accept them Everyone Cadsuane bullies is an antagonist and has done, or is doing something bad to Rand, whom Cadsuane is trying to hurt. This "bully" is the only Aes Sedai who listens to other people. Even Brandon Sanderson's fan-fiction nonsense, which clearly shows that he doesn't understand her and does not like her, has to admit as much, having her release Tam when he rebukes her after she loses her temper at Tam messing up with Rand and sending off on a genocidal rampage. Cadsuane works with the Wise Ones, which no Aes Sedai are willing to do without Rand's direct orders, and even then, resist. She does not punish Dobraine for liberating her captives, she does not interfere with Rand's supporters in any way. When Min warns her about Rand's reaction to waking up among strange Aes Sedai, she listens and brings him back to his own room, even though with her skills at handling male channelers, and number of followers and ter'angreal, she doesn't really have to worry about any danger from him, no matter how angry he might be when he wakes up. As for compliments, what about "there's good metal in that boy" after her first meeting with Rand? Complimenting Berelain in her first appearance? Building up Samitsu's confidence with reassurances and affirmation? Telling Min "you're no milksop"? Most of the time she is talking to people who are acting like idiots and doing horrible things! Why should she compliment them? Why don't you list the compliments Moiraine gives out in Jordan's books? Siuan? "she does something cool or good, it's never with grace or good will. " What is grace and good will supposed to entail? Cadsuane is almost always described as keeping her cool in even the most dangerous situations. She is very gracious when Sorilea shows her the Traveling weave and offers an alliance. Most of the time, she is in the presence of the Aes Sedai who are morons and have done a lot to make Rand paranoid and untrusting, or around Rand, and she is playing hard to get with him. Rand has the entire rest of the world flattering him and kissing his butt, and as a result he does not trust anyone who tries to persuade him or offers positive feedback. He just thinks they have ulterior motives. So Cadsuane ACTS like she does not care about him, and is not impressed by him, so he will believe that she is not trying to trick him and most importantly, so he thinks she will leave if he does not play nice with her. Rand is in the position of not having to listen to anyone, where no one can MAKE him do anything, even for his own good. But he needs to hear harsh truths and he needs someone to tell him that he is going off the rails. If he can just ignore you or send you away, good luck getting him to see this fact that he clearly does not want to hear. So Cadsuane pretends she does not care, that she does not need or want anything from Rand, so he think he has to play nice in order to get her to cooperate. And the only scam she is pulling is that playing nice IS the help she is giving him. By treating Cadsuane like a person who deserves respect, he is taking the first steps back from the edge of not caring about people, and seeing them as tools to be used or obstacles to be crushed. That's why Cadsuane keeps increasing the scope of her demands for him being polite, to watching his language, to offering tea when she comes to see him, to ASKING her to come, instead of demanding or ordering, to making him and the Asha'man be polite to each other, to making him refrain from losing his temper at his followers. She is rehabilitating his good nature and his respect for other people.

Bullying doesn't seem to work, lets double down on bullying it'll surely work this time!

That's what happens when you never meet anyone as powerful as you.

I like how you guys are forgetting the fact Rand was a sociopath who almost killed his own father. He nearly annihilated Far Madding with the true power. Without Cadsuane, Rand would have died several times over ... the dagger wound, at Far Madding, at Shadar Logoth, etc. He was insane. What was she supposed to do? Kiss his ass like everyone else? Cuz you see how well that worked out for everyone.

@@seanlamont8501 You are misrepresenting the events. Rand doesn't do anything to Tam. What he did basically amounts to him squeezing his hands in fists out of anger and then storming off, which is something that can easily happen with normal people. He also did absolutely nothing to Far Madding. He doesn't even destroy the Seanchan, even though it wouldn't be hard to argue that he should have. Hell, he doesn't even do anything to Cadsuane, who he is legitimately furious with after the Semirhage fiasco. So yes, he was unstable, but he definitely wasn't insane and he wasn't a sociopath. One could even argue that his behavior has nothing to do with the taint and everything to do with all the horrible stuff that happened to him. Even just a bit earlier, his hand was cut off and he was being forced to murder the girl he loved. Throughout all the books, the single most powerful faction in the world strived to mentally break him. It is a miracle he was as stable as he was. But even if he was insane, do you really think insults and condescension are the best way to handle a walking nuke? The alternative to that is not kissing his ass, there is a lot of space in between. She could have just been respectful and maybe he would have listened to her more. And even if you think that she was an asshole on purpose because it was the only way to reach him or anything, even that doesn't hold up. She keeps being an asshole even when dealing with the "Zen" Rand and has to be put in her place. No, Cadsuane wasn't an asshole because of some greater purpose. She just was an asshole, and as Tam says, a petty bully. Even most of her great "achievements" of the past were achieved through bullying. Hundreds of years of being more powerful than everybody made her rely on her power and strength of will, which is why she constantly screwed up when she met Rand, who was her equal in many ways and her superior in some.

@@matejsochor1673 I think you're a bit delusional my friend. Either that or you need to re-read the series ... the last three books in particular. I didnt misrepresent anything. Rand wove balefire and barely stopped himself from killing Tham because he thought he was colluding with Cadsuane. He even tells Cadsuane Rand tried to kill him. So yes, Rand is insane by this time. Verin is convinced of it and that woman was hardly ever wrong. Cadsuane's personality is necessary to Rands eventual recovery. The reader isn't meant to like her, only to respect her experience and ability. Rand even admitts to Egwene Cadsuane helped him. You and many others insist on treating Rand/Lews Therin reborn, the most powerful male Aes Sedai ever, like a victim, when he's perfectly capable of holding his own as insane as he may be. Cadsuane was one of the least annoying characters in the series. I found her quite entertaining, especially when it came to dealing with the other sisters. She's the only one that didn't treat the wise ones as inferiors, but instead made friends with them. When Moirane returns she treats her as a sort of equal instead of taking advantage of her reduced strength. And no, there was no other way to treat Rand, especially to be an effective advisor. You see how he walked all over the sisters who swore to him. Her goal was to teach him laughter and tears ... Rand and the Ashaman. Now one could argue with her methods, but the results speak for themselves.

She is absolutely amazing!!! One of the best written female characters in all written works, she's so focused and always does what she believes is right for the world not herself.

I dunno. She might have spanked Congress for fucking him over any of the like...20 times they did before he got fed up.

Wow! Strongly disagree, although I would definitely say that Nynaeve and Cadsuane are foils and share a lot of personality traits. Cadsuane is Nynaeve without empathy. Basically most of the negative traits that Nynaeve has through her own insecurity Casuane has through sheer arrogance and doubling down on bullying tactics. Cadsuane has accomplished what she has by imposing her will, while Nynaeve has triumphed over adversity, always from a position of relative weakness. While Cadsuane is correct in many of her intellectual analysis of the situation vis a vis Rand and the Last Battle, her tactics and methodology dealing with this problem are awful. She has always achieved success in the past by imposing her will, and when she finally encounters a situation where perhaps this tactic is no longer prudent, she instead doubles down despite repeatedly being confronted with evidence that she is wrong in her approach. This very nearly results in a new breaking if not for Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount. Certainly Cadsuane had no positive influence on Rand and no part in his enlightenment. Even after "Zen" Rand confronts the borderlanders in Far Madding and proves himself to be the person that Cadsuane wished to influence him to be, she does not recognize his growth and assumes his personal journey was attributed to her influence. Contrast this with Nynaeve, who is alike Cadsuane in many ways; her crippling anxiety and insecurity driving her to be abrasive and hyper agressive in relationships to others. Her inability to show weakness, to project a facade of strength and never admit wrongdoing. Yet whenever Nynaeve is presented with an opportunity to render aid to someone who needs it, she acts seflessly and with extreme heroism. She demonstrates extreme empathy in understanding Rand, unquestioningly following him in Far Madding before the cleansing, all but sacrifices herself during the actual cleansing, and continues to support Rand with everything she has during the Grendal arc, ultimately becoming one of the two women Rand chooses to accompany him during his attack on the Dark One himself. Nynaeve is who Cadsuane could have remained, had she retained her own humanity. Had she truly learned the lessons the wilder who originally humbled her was trying to teach.

@@jgalt99 Completely agree, couldn't have said it better myself. Nynaeve at like 24 or however old she is is already wiser than Cadsuane at 300 and whatever. Cadsuane is more like if Nynaeve went to the white tower at 12, became the strongest Aes Sedai in the power but also got all their bad habits of arrogance, bullying, machiavellianism, and never grew out of it. I never realized that Cadsuane is supposed to have been humbled by a wilder as a new Aes Sedai because she sure as hell never acts like it, or like any of the lessons she supposedly learned then actually stuck. Rather it appears she got a badass ter'angreal out of it that only makes it easier for her to bully and impose her will on others, and kept absolutely nothing else.

@Day I haven't watched much of the show, but aren't they playing pretty fast and lose with even the basic plot already? I agree with your assessment, though; aside from the superlative world building the fact that WoT's characters come across as genuine humans with glaring faults and total lack of self-awareness is incredibly refreshing and one of the main draws of the series.

Nynaeve is nothing like Cadsuane. Polar opposites. They do similar things at times, but for drastically different reasons. Also, Nynaeve cares.

Lol

I would cut her *some* slack on that one. Her task was frankly stupid and impossible to understand. Most Aes Sedai are failing at basic shit day in and day out and Cadsuane gets "make this asshole who isn't alive yet laugh while the world is going to hell". She also succeeds regularly at things the other AS fail at and she actually understands her weaknesses and limits better than a good chunk of the White Tower combined. She's basically the asshole you send to deal with assholes. She has tremendous failings akin to her training, background, and personality. But she's also a bad motherfucker about 95% of the time.

Thank you

You misspelled Moiraine. You spelled it like "Cadsuane". Moiraine is the arrogant one who thought she knew better than the Pattern's designated champion, that she should control his course of action, that she should interfere with the fulfillment of the very prophecy she brings up, because it does not fit with her preconceived plans. Moiraine tries to get Rand to agree with one of her dumb plans, and cites a prophecy that he would "lead the spears to war once more" and then later in the same book, when it becomes clear that the prophecy refers to the Aiel spears and Rhuidean, she even acknowledges this by asking Rand what he intends, in terms of the prophecy. But in the next book, after her tells her what he intends to do, she goes to the Wise Ones and tries to get them to stop him from fulfilling the prophecy, because it will make her BFF Siuan look bad -and Siuan does not need any help with that- and reduce the influence of the White Tower. Unlike Moiraine, Cadsuane understood that Rand was the most important person in the world. Cadsuane understood that Rand was the one chosen by the Pattern and that it was not her place to stand in his way or to interfere with him, but to help him and advise him instead of trying to manipulate him.

@@Gunleaver interesting viewpoint

@@Gunleaver Cadsuane was an unlikable sunt that was responsible for Rand’s wound from Padon Fain, when she disturbed his attention with a slap, and for his being leashed by Semirhage.

She was not trying to play Rand against Tam! She told Tam not to mention her! She did not attempt to play him at all, just brought him to meet his son, in the hopes that their relationship could help Rand find his way back to the decent man Tam raised him to be!

Gunleaver Tam himself accuses her of using him against Rand immediately after Rand almost kills him. Of all the characters in the story there isn't a more wise or reliable narrator than Tam himself.

@@brandontaylor3252 First of all, this guy appeared in only a couple of chapters in the first book, and then had a couple more appearances in two more in a minor role. On what do you base his wisdom? On what do you base his reliability as a narrator? What did he tell us in such a way that establishes he is the MOST reliable narrator? FFS, he is the one responsible for the Big Lie that Rand is his and Kari's offspring. If his narration had been slightly more reliable, Rand would not have spent all of book 1 reeling from the shock of learning otherwise, and Moiraine's job would have been easier. How does that 'reliable narrator' trait even apply to this situation? It's not narration, it's a guess at what was going on, in a tirade whose central theme is that Tam is kind of ignorant and trying to deflect blame for sending Rand off on a tirade. My point is Tam is wrong in his version of what happened. You don't argue against that point by saying "Well Tam says it was like that." And even if he IS super truthful, that only means he believes it is like that, it does not mean he is correct. This is the same guy who believed a moment ago that there was no harm in dropping Cadsuane's name in a conversation with Rand. This is a guy who had a whole conversation with the son he knows so well, and yet is shocked at how badly Rand reacts and goes off the rails. If he was that wrong about his own son, how can we trust his assessment that Cadsuane is playing Rand against him? Also, that particular phrasing is derived from the singularly bad writing of Brandon Sanderson, who mis-phrases things all the time, using words and expressions with the wrong connotation. What is to be gained by playing Rand and Tam against each other? How was Cadsuane playing them if she didn't try to sway Tam or persuade him to her point of view? Tam and/or Sanderson is just using an extreme and unsupported word choice to mischaracterize Cadsuane arranging their meeting. Here's another thought - if Tam is so great and wise and insightful, how can you fault Cadsuane for bringing him together with Rand when he is at his low point? Shouldn't he be just what Rand needs?

Tam brought Rand back during a complete and utter mental break from reality due to endless torture, mutilation, manipulation, and death from everyone around him AND the Pattern itself. This wasn't a "im having a bad day, break" this was a literal "I will murder babies and destroy the world, break". I don't think you've ever been pushed to a breaking point in your life if you can't see how powerful Tam was. His simple part in Rand's life trumped all the horror he endured and caused him to rethink his entire existence to become the man that saved the world. Something ONLY Tam could do. Not only that but he was second in command of the companions of Illian, earned a heron blade, raised a child that was not his own, earned the respect of Lan and even Cadsuane. The point of Tam as a character was to show that sometimes the most humble of men can be the most powerful, even if they possess no power.

@@Gunleaver Cadsuane always framed things to look like she was a good advisor but she was always subtly undermining everything, and was obsessed with power and control. She would have used the male a'dam herself on Rand if she could have gotten away with it.

Im practically triggered by the title alone

Rand would never have accepted Moiraine after Cadsuane, because it would be like replacing his Power-wrought sword with a decorative, blunt belt knife. Made of tin.

She was effective as a combat leader when Rand and Nynaeve were cleansing the true source. Obviously, Rand couldn't have done that, and frankly, I doubt anybody else could have done it as well - the kind of battle involved meant it needed to be a channeler, and nobody else had her particular abilities. She also pushed Rand into the breakdown that led him to rebuild himself as Zen Rand. That doesn't mean she's a good advisor - rather the opposite. But it means she had a contribution that nobody else really could do, if only because nobody else was stupid enough to provoke him like that or arrogant enough to think they could control the result. Which, note, Cadsuane did not - had she seriously intended to provoke Rand into a complete mental breakdown so he'd go meditate on who he was, who he needed to be, and how he could become that person, she wouldn't be a mere Aes Sedai, she'd be the Creator incarnate. That was not a foreseeable result of her actions. Her intent was to break his will so thoroughly that he'd shut up and do what she told him, which is contemptable. But her actions were still essential.

Cadsuane embodies all the negative traits of Aes Sedai, with every positive trait the better Aes Sedai develop stringently removed. Knowledge is not a virtue. Neither is power. Ishamael had both in spades. Cadsuane never developed any wisdom or humility. It's pretty clear that by the time she is introduced in the story, her mind had hardened and she was just done learning. Her arrogance had taken over, and she was convinced that she knew everything worth knowing, and everybody else should just shut up and do what she told them to do. That is the recipe for being an *AWFUL* advisor. She may have had important contributions to saving the world, but none of it was because she was Rand's advisor, except in that being Rand's advisor put her in a position to cause his complete breakdown, which in turn led to his development as Zen Rand. Advisors give advice, and the way she gave advice pretty much guaranteed that Rand would take it only with extreme resistance. She thought she was the main character of the series, which completely undermined her value as a supporting character.

I consider the fact that he didn't kill her as showing that he wasn't too far into the dark side as to be beyond redemption, as he was spiraling down. Exile still would have been a reasonable option without the viewing. Had he killed her, then even assuming there had been someone else to take up her task, I believe the dark would have won this age. Edit: Or it could have been the catalyst for his growth/redemption, but I don't think that would have been a strong story.

Why would you have killed Cadsuane? What did she do that deserved death? How did she commit treason or murder? And what unjustified terror does she inflict on people? That if they do something stupid, she will call them on it? That she will use a non-injurious blow to warn Rand against doing something horrible? Rand is on the verge of lashing out at his loyal supporters for giving him bad news or trying to help him, and doing what he said, but failing to read his mind. THAT is inflicting unjustified terror. But Cadsuane smacks him with a flow of Air, not causing more pain than the immediate blow, much less doing him any harm, in order to stop him from crossing the line. What other terror? Did she punish Dobraine for stealing the rebels against Rand she was holding? She might have terrorized the Sea Folk, but it was Harine's own hardball tactics and misdirected aggression that brought Cadsuane's punishment down on her. Harine was harassing Cadsuane over the Bargain with Rand, which Cadsuane had nothing to do with, and was not even sworn to Rand or serving him! She struck Cadsuane physically, and so she got a taste of what her people were dishing out to Aes Sedai, AND Cadsuane HELPED HER! She brought Harine to see Rand and told Rand off for breaking his word to Harine. OMG, spare me from such terror! She terrorizes a bunch of politicians who are locking up the Dragon Reborn in traumatic conditions so they can buy favors from Elaida. She speaks positively and encourages people in bad circumstances and helps them find their strength, like Min losing her shit after Rand is wounded, Samitsu having crises of confidence when she fails at impossible tasks, or Daigian, condemned to the bottom of Aes Sedai hierarchy, regardless of her intellect and powers of observation, not to mention all the men who have to be gentled to protect the world, whom she helps survive longer than most. TERROR!

@@Gunleaver I was speaking from me in Rand's position. Killing is a bit extreme, yes, I admit that, but think of it this way: you've been brutally abused by Aes Sedai, you have mad voices in your head, you think you're going insane, and you're terrified of being leashed/boxed in. In comes an Aes Sedai, proud as Semirhage herself, totally dismissive of your defenses. The first thing she does is insult you, scare you, then strike you. If that was me? She's gone. Outta here. Is that the best course of action? Maybe not -but it is a logical one from that point of view. Thus I have trouble justifying Rand permitting her just to wander near him. Terror was a misnomer on my part. I apologize. But so many people quail as a matter of course in her presence - regardless of whether she's done anything. That's irritating. She needs a good dose of irrerevence like Rand or Tam late on. She is a force for good but she isn't the "main character" of the Third Age -Rand is- and the more she acts like she is, the more it irks. I'm not speaking from a "but I like Rand more; he's the main character of the series, he should be most important all the time" sort of way, but in terms of the flow of the series. That leads me to my initial point, the bone I had to pick with RJ. Cadsuade, to me, is "tie up loose ends" lady. Squabbling nobles? Cadsuane. Sea Folk? Cadsuane. Get out of jail free? Cadsuane. It grows tiresome.

@@insouciantFox The thing about Cadsuane though, is that she is NOT the main character. Rand is. RAND is the one who needs irreverence, needs someone who is not impressed by him. He has that to a certain extent in Min, but Min's deal as a character is that she is not powerful, she's not a player in this game, but a spectator. She's the ordinary person trying to muddle through, so there are limits to what she can do in the plot. Cadsuane IS the irreverent person Rand needs in his story. Min plays the jester role, but ultimately, Rand's arc is deadly serious, his mission is for the highest stakes, he needs someone who takes THAT seriously, without being in awe of him, or personally invested in him. A large part of the appeal of Rand's love interests for him is that they care about the man, not the Hero. And in the middle books, people who care about the Hero, not the man are seen as corrupt, selfish and venal if not outright villainous. Cadsuane is the flip side of that. She is the person who cares entirely about the Hero, and making him be the best possible Hero, without having any affection for, or attachment to, the man. Yes, there are reasons for Rand to have negative impulses toward Cadsuane, but they are not objectively good or justified. Rand should not be acting out of pain and fear, but love, because that's what is needed to beat the Dark One. Aridhol tried to fight the Dark One and turned to evil methods which consumed them. The Children of the Light tried to fight Darkfriends and ended up falling down a rabbit hole of paranoia, until they became known more (to both characters and readers) for the extremes in which they cast their nets. The Imperial forces in Seanchan tried to protect themselves and their people from Aes Sedai run amok, and ended up going to an extreme just as bad. Cadsuane's provocations of Rand reveal his danger of going down the path of those examples. "The first thing she does is insult you, scare you, then strike you." How did she insult him, especially "the first thing"? She address him as the Dragon Reborn. Is that an insult? She references his bad manners, but does so in a way that blames his prior teachers. She showed up to see Rand and is greeted by hysterics and hostility that she did nothing to cause. She called him and Berelain children, but they were posturing and playacting for her benefit, and she just pointed that out. There is no indication that if Rand had behaved normally, and treated her like a normal person, she would not have been polite to him. Rand was acting like a coward, overreacting to a single Aes Sedai who had showed him no threat. He is a powerful channeler, in a room with an oath-sword sister and two Asha'man guard, with Maidens nearby and several clan chiefs still in shouting distance. How is he threatened, how is he in danger that he needs to demand Cadsuane's Ajah and be poised for fight or flight? Rand has only himself to blame for how badly the encounter with Cadsuane went. She was mostly telling him good stuff, that she understands what she is going through, that she has seen men in his situation and that she does not judge them for it. She is aware of his problems and rather than talk to someone who has some knowledge, Rand gets defensive and lashes out at her because he feels vulnerable. Yes, Rand has faced abuse, but it's important that he confront it and move past it instead of letting his fears and trauma govern his actions and choices. Cadsuane is literally the only person who recognizes his trauma and makes constructive efforts to rectify it. The Wise Ones seem to recognize it, but are not capable of doing anything about it, because, as Sorilea admits, they bungled their relationship with him, plus their own weird values make it hard for them to get through to him.

I'd say it is a fair comparison the dragon reborn can't wait 100 years to fight the last battle and was in the need of guidance.

@@Adam_okaay I would say that Cadsuane is more experienced... Not better.

"She let her arrogance get out of control and it led from one disaster to another." To be fair, that's par for the course when it comes to Aes Sedai. 🤷‍♂️

Agree. His attempts at "humanization" of Cadsuane - PoVs, failures, and her fear of Rand at his darkest - fall flat for me as well. I cannot reconcile that woman with the one who single handedly repsonsible for the humbling of 20 male channelers, assorted unruly rulers, and various Aes Sedai. It just doesn't come off as facets of a consistent character.

🤪