No one can abide by their own willpower Only by the Holy Spirit can ANYONE abide or endure...

​@@tomtemple69I deed the operation of the Holy Spirit through the Gospel - called: "The hearing of faith" (Galatians 3:5; 1 Thessalonians 1:5; 1 Peter 1:5)

Excellent. No better way to put it. As Dr. Michael Brown puts it "you can't lose your salvation...but you can forfeit it." And I think that language works better with the entirety of the Old Testament.

​@@divinityofblackness6330Absolutely. Consider the wording of Ezekiel 33:13. Romans 8:13 reflects essentially a parallel of that verse.

Scripture alone but your church follows tradition?

I would suggest you have studied more but glad you have peace no matter what. The Scriptures scream to us that God PRESERVES His people. The "if" passages aren't prescriptive. Prove it to me from the Greek. They are DESCRIPTIVE. Showing what the true Christians will do. Perseverance of the Saints. The warning passages are not hypothetical. Apostasy is real...but again not for the born again child of God.

As a Lutheran, I struggled with these texts. Now, as a Presbyterian, I have peace.

There are many passages that suggest that salvation can never be lost or forfeited and there are many passages that suggest that salvation can indeed be lost or forfeited. That is why the Protestant notion that every believer can interpret the Scripture for himself is totally wrong. We need the infallible teaching authority of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church, sometimes called the magisterium. Our Holy Mother the Catholic Church teaches that the state of grace can indeed be forfeited (Dr. Cooper is quite correct to say that "forfeited" is a better word here than "lost") and all it takes is one mortal sin. The state of grace can be regained by a sincere repentance and good Confession.

@@MatthewandDiane The Confessional Lutheran church preaches Jesus Christ and Him crucified and that alone is our Peace. You speak against things you do not understand.

Reformed theology is false doctrine

God bless you!

As long as you're being honest and seeking the scripture and not a theologian like White or Durbin to explain it away in textual criticism or Calvinistic doctrine rather than just God's word then you'll be okay.

@@Livelife95ify are you saying that the entirety of reformed theology is false? If so then that would mean that you are saying that the diety of Christ is false, salvation by faith through grace (alone) is false, etc... do you believe those things are false?

@@BibleLovingLutheran would you agree that the same thing applies to non calvinists?

I just want to respond to your comment where you said, "...Reformed Christians take seriously God's sovereignty,...". All due respect, and I mean that sincerely... I see Calvinists make this false claim all the time. Nothing could be further from the truth. Most of the non-Calvinists, if not all of the one's I know do indeed take God's "sovereignty" serious. I've studied the subject of the varying views of soteriology for quite a few years and what I see is a mistake made by Calvinists where they define "sovereignty" in an idiosyncratic way. If Calvinists would correctly define sovereignty it would cause them to put aside a bias they have based on a false presupposition of God's sovereignty.

I would agree with you. Some people misunderstand Soverign grace and replace it with a sloppy grace.

PAUL'S WORDS do read and take serious. Because your reasoning is FULL of the creeds and traditions of men and we must discern absolute from relative arguments. This one is an absolute one and not subject to relativism or further context. Romans 8:38 "38 And I am convinced that nothing can ever separate us from God’s love. Neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither our fears for today nor our worries about tomorrow-not even the powers of hell can separate us from God’s love. 39 No power in the sky above or in the earth below-indeed, nothing in all creation will ever be able to separate us from the love of God that is revealed in Christ Jesus our Lord." If indeed" nothing in all of creation will ever be able to seperate us from the love of God "then we as Christians cannot fall away even when we try. I don't care for opinions and am merely here to call out such heresy. I say this as one who has witnessed EL ELYON on his throne, of whom I did not know of and who's face I could not see on the throne, until I was "sanctified" on his right hand side. Not by my works, but by his decree "that [I] might believe" and never can fall away despite wrestling with God and my faith in him. Sanctification is nothing you yourself do. Our actions are merely the affirmation of such heavenly decrees. But once saved, we are never in no wise - panteles - able to lose salvation. Period.

Because He knew squabbles of this nature would come up, Jesus in His wisdom did not leave us orphans----He established the Catholic Church and gave it infallible teaching authority. Our Holy Mother the Catholic Church teaches that salvation (the "state of grace ") can be forfeited, and all it takes is one mortal sin. The Church further teaches that the state of grace can be re-gained by a sincere repentance and good Confession .

@@a-sheepof-christ9027 Nothing will separate us from God's love. God loves saints and sinners alike. If we sin and break from Him, we lose our salvation (we lose the state of grace) but He still loves. God punished Adam and Eve but He still punished them. God even loves the souls in Hell. The fire they experience is only the fire of His love, experienced by the souls in Hell as painful because they do lot love God back. They will stay in Hell forever but God still loves them. So "nothing can separate us from God's love" does not mean once-saved-always-saved. Once-saved-always-saved is a license to sin.

Peace. Do you agree with this video? If so, why?

Peace. Why do you agree with this?

@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 I agree because the Bible tells us so clearly we can lose our faith. The parable of the sower is clear on this. Even Paul says I fought the good fight and kept the faith. Why should he say such a thing if he couldn't lose his faith in t he first place?

@@Bijbelstudies, peace brother. That's a good point. So if it's true and we can lose it, what are we supposed to do? How do we have assurance that God won't let us do that, and that he will help us endure to the end?

@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 God will HELP us to endure with His grace but He will not FORCE us to endure. All it takes is one mortal sin and the state of grace is forfeited. The state of grace can be re-gained by sincere repentance and a good Confession.

@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 he will help us endure if we are willing.. but if your deceived and want to follow in deception then even God can't obstruct your willingness. Salvation came to us through Jesus, he only opened our eyes but it's because we were willing . He won't forcefully open anyone's eyes nor force to keep them open to him.. you have full choice to close your eyes or keep them open. If I'm willing to keep them open then he will keep it open for us.. he will sustain us..

There exists a will of desire. It’s also His will that all people are saved (1 Tim 4:10).

Peace. Do you agree with this video?

Watch Chuck Missler Eternal Security. It will clear up everything

If you even have the desire to repent and recognize you need to, Hebrews 6 is not speaking to you

Have you had some resolution on this issue? How are you thinking about it today?

Revelation says he will not blot us out of the book of life. Will not is the opposite of will. Duh!

@@gregorylatta8159 then you haven't read the Book of Rev, not only does it come with a promise, but says if you add or take away from "this book" your name will be blotted out from the Book of Life. BTW, never remembered Jesus saying "duh" to a believer so maybe change your funky attitude foolish one (He did call people fools so, I can say that). Have a great day

@@Shellyspurr Actually the original Greek says tree of life.

@@gregorylatta8159 Gen 21:27 "But there shall by no means enter it anything that defiles, or causes an abomination or a lie, but only those who are written in the Lamb’s Book of Life." Greek will be different than English for sure, but just about every English Bible says book. Both are wood literally so, I can accept tree haha. This is interesting tho, id like to know more because the book of Gen says tree of life so, I would like to know more about how they're similar. Thank you for this incite

@@Shellyspurr The Lambs book of life is usually thought of as the list that was made before the foundation of the world of those predestined for salvation. There is much debate within Christianity about this and many issues such as OSAS and many many others. All I can say is no matter what anyone thinks I am going to trust Jesus alone for my salvation and I suggest others do the same.

If this video is true, then what are we as Christians supposed to do?

@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 late late response here. You want to know what to do? Look to Christ. Pray for wisdom and discernment so that all of us Christian’s can be United. Just the fact that you’re asking this question means you want to know. Pray about it. Ask for the gifts that you know God is offering you and mean it (with faith) and it’s a done deal. And then use it. I believe from your one comment you are saved but you’re afraid of backsliding. Stay in the word and talk to God and ask for the indwelling of the Holy Spirit as he offered it to us! Another gift! Take it. He love you and wants you and all Christians to have the gift of pointing people to Christ in one way or another. You have faith brother? Take it. Never worry and never live in fear. God is with you.

You might be interested to hear this: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/gbWch5aTtK-Ue6s.html

Is salvation through faith alone or is something additional required ?

That is why the orthodox Christian belief from the apostles is endure to the end. We must abide in Christ or else we are cut off the vine.

@@FrMoody I've read several Palamist sermons insisting on "I'm being saved," and Lutherans would not deny it. But what do you so with the broader morphology of "save" in the NT? It certainly says we are being saved, but it also says "He saved us...by the washing of rebirth and renewal of the Holy Spirit," and "By grace you have been saved." biblehub.com/greek/strongs_4982.htm

I don't know how Dr. Cooper feels but his hero Martin Luther taught that only the loss of faith resulted in the loss of salvation, that no believer loses salvation by committing sin. "If anyone should still believe in the stupid ten commandments let him chase himself to the Jews," Luther said.

You are begging the question. You assume because we are saved then God would not let us fall away. But this does nothing to address the very real possibility of turning away and resisting his grace. Falling away does not mean we were never his it means we rejected him.

"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life." If believing in Jesus grants you everlasting life, you can never stop having it. Otherwise it's incoherent. It is in the moment you believe that you are passed from death unto life. "Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life." John 5:24

So is the Holy Spirit a leaking seal till the day of redemption? A new heart of flesh and a new spirit isn't enough to keep someone saved? God can't sovereignly keep someone in the faith ?

​@@tomtemple69I don't understand God to force someone to disbelieve or believe in Him. Salvation requires a person's free will and/or volition. The Lord's love is made apparent in that He allows His creation to be able of themselves to serve and obey Him consciously and not involuntarily in a deterministic or fatalistic sense.

​​@@tomtemple69"And from the days of John the Baptist until now the Kingdom of Heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." Matthew 11:12 A particular pious bishop named Theophan importantly clarified; "The fact that the Kingdom of God is "taken by force" presupposes personal effort." A person may have initially or for a long period of time sought it only to then eventually have forsaken it. At one point a person may of their own volition work out their salvation, potentially through particular decisions or judgements of such a person they may fall from the faith or cease to work out their salvation.

@@anthonyp6055 "I don't understand God to force someone to disbelieve or believe in Him. Salvation requires a person's free will and/or volition. The Lord's love is made apparent in that He allows His creation to be able of themselves to serve and obey Him consciously and not involuntarily in a deterministic or fatalistic sense." yeah, that's your opinion the Bible says otherwise also, "force" would imply God doesn't have total and complete control over our existence and doesn't uphold our existence moment by moment

You're not the first person who has asked this, so I will try and make it a priority to answer this in another video.

cool, And could you also tell me what type of Lutheran you are? I grew up in the ELCA church and I know there are different types. That might help with some understanding as well.

I am a pastor in the AALC. We are quite small. We were founded by the old ALC by churches who did not want to join the merger that became the ELCA, because we had some concern regarding their views on Scripture.

Also, you may find this video on the order of salvation helpful: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/iNVjipWcl5zOioU.html

I watched this video and also looked up the AALC. I would say I find your beliefs more Biblical than what I have experienced with the ELCA. I don't believe all that you are saying and find it all a bit "religious". By that I mean traditions of man more than a relationship with God Himself. It seems that from your video I would agree on the basics of how one gets saved. I certainly don't hold to any teaching that says infants should be baptized or that it accomplishes anything in terms of that child's salvation. Salvation is a choice that we make to accept what Jesus did for us on the cross. A baby can't do that and the parents can't do that for them. However, I'll watch some more and listen to what you have to say. Maybe you can move from water baptism to the baptism of the Holy Spirit as it was in Acts. You do know that is still available to us today, right?! Romans 10:9-10 English Standard Version (ESV) 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Does God promise to preserve us to the end, or not?

@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 The one who endures to the end shall be saved.

The parable of the sewer is not a good way to argue against OSAS - it's about whether the plant bears fruit or not, not whether there is, in fact, a plant.

​@@jesussaves2642so we save ourselves?

THIS IS THE ONE YOU NEED kzfaq.info/get/bejne/n5mfqKZ7ms7acqM.html

Still Lutheran? :)

@@JoojieXD yes indeed

Christopher Mount I’m guessing he doesn’t.

Let’s flip the around. How do you reconcile those texts you posted with the ones he pointed out within taking the hypothetical but not possible view or being externally connected to the church without true faith?

@@JonathanGrandt He reconciles them the way Lutheran doctors always have. bookofconcord.org/sd-election?setSidebar=min#para68 bookofconcord.org/sd-election.php#para12 bookofconcord.org/exhortation.php

Let's face it, the Bible contradicts itself a lot. That's why we need the infallible teaching authority of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church. See 2 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 3:16, and Acts 8:31.

Let's face it the Bible contradicts itself all over the place. That's why we need the infallible teaching authority of our Holy Mother the Catholic Church.

The passage you cite has nothing to do with a question of perseverance or the assertion of once saved always saved. John is warning against false prophets, antichrists, liars, deceivers, etc.

I scratched my head on this but unlocked the Lutheran DaVinci Code if you will. In Lutheranism you can have real true regenerate "Christians"...all Baptized barbies!!!! So...because the Sacramental efficacy is of main focus always you must be able to account for those who "fall away" after having received true efficacious grace in the water of Baptism. Once you get past this you see Lutherans squirming whenever Calvin is mentioned (sad because Calvin admired Luther unto death) but at the CORE soteriology....and I mean the CORE...there is no difference. What about universal grace? Same answer. You need universal grace to subsidize the efficacy of infant Baptismal regeneration and you must have true apostates as an excuse to handle when one of the Non Elect falls away (yet they truly were BAPTIZED). So...the reason I say that at the CORE. ...the Sola Fide Monergistic CORE is the same is because Lutheran Theology teaches that the ELECT OF GOD shall NEVER perish ..... im good with that. The Apostates they speak of are visible church stragglers...covenant fallouts. Similar to Federal Vision in the sense that there are the Covenantally Elect (Baptized) and then there are the Decretally Elect (regenerated). We have a similar stance in Presbyterianism with the visible and invisible church we just never teach that A regenerated heart can become unregenerated...its a difference in our language and that for the reasons stated above the Lutherans claim that real born again Christians can be lost but never the Elect. We teach that ONLY the Elect are Born Again. Shalom.

Marcus Williams no it’s not. They were with us, which means that they were thought to be Christians, but their leaving showed that they weren’t.

@@itslitgamestv6827 Incorrect. That text is talking about Antichrists. It explains who the “they” are and what the “they” were doing. The “they” were Antichrists and they were outright denying that Jesus is the Christ.

Now, however, since you have come to know [the true] God [through personal experience], or rather to be known by God, how is it that you are turning back again to the weak and worthless elemental principles [of religions and philosophies], to which you want to be enslaved all over again? Galatians 4:9 God has given us a choice.. if we are willing to continue with God he will sustain us.. just like we were willing to be saved while he is the one who saves us.. If a person wants to return to deceptive teachings and fall away it's their choice.. and God will not stop because we are humans.. not robots!

If this video is true, then what are we supposed to do?

What do you mean? As regards to oneself - or as regards to those who fail to understand this subject correctly? Hebrews 7 - I think it is - explains how obedience is required - repentance is necessary. Exactly what the people of Israel - the majority refused to do. And repaed thei rjust reward as a result. @@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298

@@debbystevens7494, peace sister. I'm asking that if this video is true and a Christian can Spirit filled Christian can forfeit Salvation, then what are we as Christians supposed to do? Where do we find our assurance?

I'm sure you say obedience if necessary, not to negate Salvation by grace through faith alone right?

@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 What are we supposed to do? We are supposed to avoid all mortal sin. If we have the misfortune to commit a mortal sin God will forgive us if we have sincere repentance and if we go to Confession.

Lutherans baptize comatose family members if there's any evidence they are believers and wanted to be baptized eventually. Lutherans baptize the quadriplegic. And Lutherans baptize babies. I never seen no baby do no work.

If we define "works" as "anything physical that ever occurs", of course the sacraments are works. But by this definition, the death and resurrection of Christ is a work, and we know we are saved by the death and resurrection of Christ. So the definition of "work" in this context must be "anything physical of man's doing" (as opposed to God's doing). Your argument then rests on a presupposition that the sacraments (baptism and communion) are works of man. The orthodox Lutheran understanding is that these are absolutely not works of man, but works of God. If a dirty dish is washed clean, it is not the dish which worked itself clean, but the washer of the dish who did the work. So it is in baptism, where it is not the water which purifies, but the "washing of the water with the Word" (Eph 5:26). Further, we know God does use physical things to accomplish His will. We are physical bodies, and will be reunited with our physical bodies in the last day. We place our trust in the physical blood of Jesus on a physical cross at a precise time and location in history, and His physical resurrection. The sick woman who touched Jesus' garment in Luke 8 was made well by faith, at the moment she touched Jesus' physical robe. A few seconds before she touched His robe, she had faith that once she touched His robe, she would be healed. But she was not healed until physically touching his physical robe. The sacraments of baptism and communion were instituted by Christ Himself and are not ours to do away with. If the Bible said "pat yourself on top of your head five times and you will be saved" we would all take it at face value. But when St Paul says in Acts 22:16, "Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins", we say we don't need baptism to wash away our sins. And when St Peter says in 1 Peter 3:21 that "baptism now saves you", we say no it doesn't. And when Christ Himself says in Matthew 26 that "This [the wine] is the blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins", we say it's not actually His blood and it doesn't actually work forgiveness of sins. Faith alone saves, and we must have faith that His Word and the blessed sacraments will deliver what He has promised!

I don't think Protestants believe in mortal sin or venial sins, it does not fit into their doctrine of "faith alone" - what does "continue in the faith" even mean?...a person can have faith and still live in a state of sin, (cohabitation, adultery, etc.), he can still go to church and pray, etc. but when he goes home he lives in sin. Italian Mafias continue to go to church and murder and distribute drugs as routine, Corrupt politicians continue to steal money from their country's coffers while they go to church on Sundays, Biden and Pelosi continue to support radical abortion while they continue to go to mass on Sundays, etc. Faith alone is not enough, one has to live a moral life to be in faith with God. We must not offend Christ by living with sin. Nothing is free in this world, all our acts have consequences, even the Hindus believe in "karma" consequences of our action or deed. All human cultures believe that their "god" rewards the good and condemns the bad. Mortal sin is defined as “full knowledge and consent” deliberate acts that goes against God’s will, grave sins which endanger a person’s salvation, - (procuring abortion, adultery, murder, stealing, etc.) these sins can only be absolved by a priest in the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Venial sin are white lies, lifting an apple from a cart, etc. mostly harmless acts. - this can be forgiven by a simple prayer of repentance. Abortion is both a sin and a crime under Catholic legal codes. As a sin, procuring an abortion must be confessed to a priest. But as a crime, procured abortion carries with it the penalty of “excommunication”: that is, automatic expulsion from the Catholic Church. So someone wishing to be absolved of the sin of procuring an abortion would first need to have the penalty of excommunication lifted by the bishop before confessing to a priest. In 2009, Pope Francis will allowed priests all over the world to grant forgiveness for abortion in the sacrament of confession, no need for a bishop to lift the excommunication. This is part of the Catholic practice that seeks to make it more humane, more merciful and more easily adaptable to the realities of everyday human life. Pope St. John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI and Pope Francis have also all emphasized abortion as among the gravest of sins. Abortion has been condemned, from early Christian councils in A.D. 305 to the present day..

Unsound doctrine is sin.

A born again person can reject his faith.. God doesn't force his will on anyone.. but if your a person who genuinely follow God I don't think hel let you fall away. Hel bring a person back no matter how far he's gone.. but again his willingness wil matter.

If a person will fall away from faith to the point God will cut away him, he will never come back to faith - he is doomed as letter of hebrews undeniably stayed.

No it doesn’t. It just proves that if we fall into the Valley and are brought back, it’s a gift from God, not our work. In the same way, it’s God who gives us the gift of Faith, and if we persevere, it’s because of the Holy Spirit, not us. But Scripture is clear that we can reject/wreck our faith. So I praise God that your friend was like the Prodigal Son. That truly is good news. But I think it proves a different point then you may believe. God Bless

Correct!

Even if they can, I don't believe for a second that God wouldn't be actively pursuing them to come home. The parable of the Lost sheep runs entirely counter in my mind to the idea that someone can walk away and God just let's them go without protest or attempts to restore the relationship.

This doesn’t prove anything, I’ve had friends who were burning Christians then became non believers, they died non believers, point disproven

@@jamesmartinez2350 Can you prove they were "burning Christians"?

That would be calling God a liar and not maintaining faith/trust in God, His Word and Work. We call it a seared conscience, the remedy is the hammer of God, and private honest confession and Absolution.

That is a very good point, Hans. The relationship (personal relationship with Jesus, no?) with Jesus is often likened to a marriage, with Jesus being the groom and our souls being the bride. The book of Revelation speaks of the Church as the mystical body of Christ. Some Catholic hymns speak of Jesus, "the bridegroom of my soul". A nun is considered to be a bride of Christ. In a marriage the partners need to have faith in each other, have hope that the marriage will work, and they must do good works for each other. We should understand that faith without works is dead but we should REALLY understand that love without good works is the phonyest kind of love imaginable. Having faith in each other and that's all that is needed? No.....

If unsaved humans can keep loving someone for their whole life, how much easier is it for one with the Spirit to love God even longer?

Philippians 1:6 has to be interpreted in the light of Matthew 10:22 (Scripture interprets Scripture). If we persevere in grace, avoiding mortal sin, repenting of mortal sin if we have the misfortune to commit one, then yes, we will grow to perfection in Christ.

Yes this

You should be Catholic.

You have to distinguish between faith and grace. Not everyone that has faith in Christ is in the state of grace. The devil has faith (Luke 4:34) but no grace. The rich man, in the Lazarus/rich man parable, had faith in God and in his spiritual father Abraham, but no grace. Committing just one mortal sin kills the grace in our soul. The grace of God can be re-gained by a sincere repentance and Confession, but there are people who become so jaded and obstinate in their sins that they do lose their faith and refuse to repent or confess.

Suffering eternally in hell, because all souls must end up in either heaven of hell.

You could be saved. God allows, and in fact encourages, moral U-turns.

Same here im now wondering the same

Yes, God loves a repentant sinner. Look to Christ for your faith. You don't find it through introspection. Get baptized if you haven't been, partake of the Lord's supper, worship him in communion of the saints, study his word and pray to him. Don't spend a bunch of time interrogating your heart, spend your energy seeking to serve your King. Turn that over and over in your mind. Godspeed! Welcome back!

@@guyroszel7584 I didn't realize I had fallen I want the HOLY GHOST and not like this I was attacked and got into Spiritual sifted I want to come back and Satan know I don't belong .He was hitting me hard and I didn't understand. I didn't even read and study. Need to be restored and healed. I had the HOLY GHOST and don't remember what happened and got into flesh lies. The attack s mess my nerves

Confess to a Catholic priest and you’ll be fine.

?????? What ? What ? What ? Don't you know that Hebrews is written to all Christians? Read Chapter 1:1, 2 Read Chapter 2:3, 4 Read Chapter 12:22-25 GOD has spoken to US by His SON in fulfillment of Deuteronomy 18:15-19 / Acts 2:33 If you read John's Gospel (eg 14:23, 24) you will find the Lord reiterating this theme and it's found in Luke also (Luke 10:16) But as to "walking away from grace", That is made abundantly clear in Hebrews 3:12. Indeed Hebrews 3:14 uses the perfect tense to say we are become (Riight now) PARTAKERS OF CHRIST, And yet the inspired author uses the conditional clause in tandem with his statement: "IF hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast unto the end" This is no different to the warning the Lord gave us: "He that endures to the end shall be saved"

Lutherans stick to the correct exegesis of the bible.

I think Scripture says that those who fall away can not return. At times it seems almost like there are 2 groups. 1 being Elect and 2 being those who come to Faith. Maybe the truly elect can not fall away but those whom follow Christ can. I’m probably wrong, but I fail to understand how it sometimes seems like there are different rules applied to “Elect” than other Christians.

Eternal life is the knowledge of Him, jn 17.3. It is participation in His uncreated life. When we stop obeying the gospel we become disconnected from grace and need to be renewed. David experienced this and thus said, God take not your holy Spirit from me. See you soon , iakobe.

God never takes away salvation (more accurately called "the state of grace" because no one knows for certain that he will be saved). Nor can any power in Heaven or on earth....except....we ourselves. The state of grace is a free gift, true, but like any gift it can be thrown away. We lose the state of grace by committing just one mortal sin, but God is merciful and will restore us to the state of grace if we sincerely repent and go to Confession. Once-saved-always-saved is a license to sin and I think deep down everybody recognizes that.

+Edward -- I can't fully tell from your post if you're in the Lutheran camp or not (my impression is that you are not but if you are my apology) but you might want to check out this article. *_"Why Lutheran Predestination Isn't Calvinist Predestination"_* by *Mathew Block* from _First Things_ www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2013/10/why-lutheran-predestination-isnt-calvinist-predestination

resurrectionjose I've previously read Mathew Block’s article and commented on it in the comments below it. But briefly I don't agree with his argument that Luther didn't endorse predestination to hell. There's nothing in Luther’s commentary on Genesis that actually supports this. It's plain that we can't know whether we're saved (and therefore conclude we're predestined to be saved) except through our faith in Christ since He is the only access to God that we have, but this doesn't rule out predestination to hell which Luther most certainly defends in The Bondage of the Will, and which he supports when he says in his Genesis commentary “I have written that everything is absolute and unavoidable”. Also there's a misunderstanding in Lutheran circles that Luther was opposed to reason and logic particularly with reference to predestination and that he was in agreement with the Formula of Concord on this. However this is completely mistaken. Luther only opposed reason when it sought to make a value judgement on the truthfulness of Scripture, however he defended to the utmost the use of reason when arguing from Scriptural premises. Therefore we find him making the following summary of his position in The Bondage of the Will which confirms he held predestination to both heaven and hell: “For if we believe it to be true that God foreknows and predestines all things, that he can neither be mistaken in his foreknowledge nor hindered in his predestination, and that nothing takes place but as he wills it (as reason itself is forced to admit), then on the testimony of reason itself there can't be any free choice in man or angel or any creature”. (page 293, Luther's Works, Vol 33) By the way in my eyes I’m a Lutheran since I agree with Luther and support the teachings of the Book of Concord that were in existence during Luther's lifetime. However since Lutheranism since 1580 has been defined by acceptance of the Formula of Concord’s teaching on predestination, which I hold is in error (and which Luther wouldn't have agreed with), I don't refer to myself as a Lutheran.

+Edward -- Luckily while coming back here and re-reading the entirety of your post after digging around one of my external hard drives (it's normally hooked up to my laptop computer) for the titles of one or two books as well as looking up some stuff online, I noticed that I might have been a bit hasty or simply misread the second paragraph in your previous post. (Further below I'm going ahead and mention what I presumed at first and cite the title and accompanying link to Amazon.) The one thing I should have done but didn't bother to do because it might have been way too time-consuming is looking for a quotation in some book I have on former fundamentalist Christians ("Leaving The Fold..." by Edward Babinski) whereby the author either insinuates that Luther held to "double predestination" or directly quotes him by actually citing from one of his works. What I recall is something about the *_"acme of faith"_* and will probably look it up another time during the upcoming morning or afternoon. I also don't want to be rummaging around one of my bookshelves in another part of the house and near a family member who is sound asleep. :) All that being said, I think you're most probably right about Luther holding to *and* perhaps early on teaching "double predestination" while Lutheranism in general and many Lutherans in particular say otherwise. That article by Mathew Block is a case in point. I never bothered to read the comments section of his article which ironically enough is something I normally do since comments/posts by readers tend to be more interesting and enlightening than the article(s) themselves. I spotted your comment but won't be elaborating on it here. I will end with the following and touch upon what you said in the second paragraph. *_"Also there's a misunderstanding in Lutheran circles that Luther was opposed to reason and logic..."_* Even though I didn't go any further and cite the rest of what you said, on the whole you are correct. I had to also look around one of my other folders (simply entitled "Lutheranism") where I have 80+ eBooks and journal articles specifically on Martin Luther and Lutheranism. I'll assume you're familiar with the following book that I cited further below. I also took the liberty of citing the Baptist minister and theologian, Roger E. Olson, who had written a blog article showcasing that Luther did indeed hold to "double predestination." Lastly, even if Luther never uttered the same type of statements he did in earlier years I believe the usual criticisms against Calvinism (re: TULIP) or even a modified form of it (e.g., emphasis on 'T' and 'P' while giving short shrift to 'U', 'L', and 'I') can just as well be leveled at him. "Double predestination" no matter how it's sliced boils down to one group being chosen for eternal life (i.e., the Elect) and another group predestined to eternal perdition (i.e., the non-Elect). Mr. Olson in a few of his books on Arminianism (that includes one or two arguing *against* Calvinism) in my view does a splendid job of showing up a number of faulty lines of theological reasoning within Calvinist thought. About the one area that I think he *might* be waffling on is Romans 9 when he more or less quotes John Wesley: *_"It cannot mean, whatever it meant besides, that the God of truth is a liar....Let it mean what it will. It cannot mean that the Judge of all the world is unjust."_* Sounds great at first glance and I reckon eases one's troubled conscience as well as a good deal of cognitive dissonance regarding some "horrible decree" and God's love, but it seems to avoid the text itself and the necessary exegetical work needed in order to determine what that part of Romans (or more to the point chapters 9-11) means and not what we wish it to mean for the sake of squaring things away with some cherished or deeply held doctrine. (I'm trying to find a dissertation online that I have on hand that has since been published in a prestigious monograph series, 'Library of New Testament Studies', and will presume it's either not freely available anymore or I just haven't looked well enough. For the heck of it I will cite the title way at the end and attempt to find it another time. It part one of a trilogy on the entirety of Romans 9, and from an Arminian persuasion.) *_"The Devil's Whore. Reason and Philosophy in the Lutheran Tradition"_* (2011) edited by *Jennifer H. Dragseth* www.amazon.com/Devils-Whore-Philosophy-Lutheran-Tradition/dp/0800698509/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1517473976&sr=8-2&keywords=%27%27The+Devil%27s+Whore.+Reason+and+Philosophy+in+the+Lutheran+Tradition%27%27 *_"Luther and 'Double Predestination'"_* by *Roger E. Olson* www.patheos.com/blogs/rogereolson/2013/04/luther-and-double-predestination/ *_"Arminian Principles for Interpreting Romans 9."_* wesleyanarminian.wordpress.com/category/romans-9/ Brian J. Abasciano *_"Paul’s Use of the Old Testament in Romans 9.1-9. An Intertextual & Theological Exegesis"_* [LNTS] (2004)

resurrectionjose I clicked on your link to the article "Arminian Principles for Interpreting Romans 9" but I don't agree with the argument presented. Romans 9 is about individual predestination. One has to indulge in contorted arguments to arrive at the conclusion that Paul isn't discussing divine predestination to heaven and hell. Luther in "The Bondage of the Will", before presenting Scriptural proof for predestination, argues from the premise that God is omnipotent and omniscient and that God's foreknowledge can't be invalidated, that everything is predestined by God to happen. He argues that God's foreknowledge imposes necessity on everything happening exactly as He has foreknown it will, which means there's no human free will to do anything different. Luther's main emphasis was of course to refute free will in reply to Erasmus but in doing so he argued, totally convincingly, that everything is predestined by God to happen which he then proved from Scripture, in particular Romans 9. In addressing the point that God can't do anything which would seem to us to be unloving and unjust Luther makes the argument that we shouldn't judge God as if He was human as God's justice is above our understanding, and we'll only understand it in the next life when we see that He's perfectly just. (pages 289-293, Luther's Works, Vol 33).

"Peter, the formidable rock, falling into great sin and experienced in struggle, did not despair and did not lose the presence of the Spirit, rather he shed bitter tears from a warm heart and, seeing that, the devil fled from him as though burned by fire." - St. Seraphim Of Sarov Christ created us with free will, He even allows us to fall into sin in order for us to remain humble and contrite and not become proud as the demons/devils who themselves don't eat food nor sleep, have sexual relations and have knowledge of the Scriptures. Peter denied the Lord three times and supported false doctrine(Judaizing) yet the Lord accepted his repentance and self-correction. God bless!

@@anthonyp6055 I understand your point (and agree full heartedly)...but how do we reconcile that with the Hebrews passage that says "it's impossible to renew the repentant back to repentance"? I know I'll find the answer eventually...I just need to search.

So what's the solution?

@@trustchristnotmyselfextran6298 The solution to salvation?

@@1ProShooter, sorry, which part is now clear to you?

@@1ProShooter, in this video he explained that a Christian can further forfeit Salvation. So if this is true, what are we as Christians supposed to do?

The solution is not turning from Christ bid you have, turn back

It sounds like you got saved AFTER those 20 years when you had true repentance. Not before. When you get saved, God changes your life, and gives you that new heart. That is salvation. The Bible says, "If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature. Old things are passed away. All things become new. Going through the motions of saying a prayer is not salvation when there was no true repentance. I walked an aisle when I was 9 went through the motions and grew up all those years, thinking I was saved. I thought of it like getting vaccinated. God showed me, through the years, that I did not get saved at 9, then I TRULY got saved at 23. I didn't understand what salvation was at 9. But, God showed me what true salvation was , at 23. It happens to a lot of people.

You were saved the moment you were baptized. Not “so called saved,” in fact the very reason you probably were even interested in studying scripture to begin with, was likely inspiration from the Holy Ghost because your baptism made you a child of God.

Salvation is believing on Jesus for salvation. It's God's gift and He, through the Holy Spirit does the good works; our works don't matter. If we truly believe, then we will obey Jesus. "Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;"

Our works demonstrate the reality of our faith. They do matter. Without getting into the weeds, good works are what we are saved {for} (that's supposed to communicate italics).@@Anony584

Can wheat become tares ?

@@tomtemple69 God knows... the content of scripture seems to say yes even by the framework of the parables. Until the stalks all ripen, who knows how the heads will flower? Also I am Orthodox now, I used to be lcms.

​@@ThumbKnuckle youre Orthodox and you say you NOW know that truth? 🤔🤨

@@ThumbKnuckle that's not what I asked can tares turn into wheat and vice versa? once a tare or wheat is planted, can they transform into the other?

@@tomtemple69 it's an analogy, not something that means exactly what it says, it's a hedge around the truth, not an assertion of what is precisely the case, in other parables the people can transform into the other kind, so it needs to be viewed through the lens of what has always been believed...

It's called repentance. Nothing particularly Lutheran about it. It's just Biblical.

Did you do that?!

Annabelle Rankin Not yet. Hard to break routines

Annabelle Rankin Also, there are extremely liberal branches of the Lutheran Church that support women Priests and homosexual “Christians “. I need to do a more research before walking in the wrong one.

@@KamalaKackles Absolutely. You can go to Issues Etc for good Lutheran teaching and advice on a local church you can rely on. Mine is in the UK and excellent. issuesetc.org www.oslc.org.uk

Yeah, lucky you. What about someone that was not 'chosen' by God? Calvinism, the religion of narcissists.

We are all chosen, we all will have eternal life. Matthew 18#12-14. Praise God Almighty, Amen.

@@herberttaylor466 This is bizarre. Are you saying all humans are saved? or all the Christians are chosen and have eternal life?

@@Brian_L_A All Humans without Exception, its so simple its hard to believe. Faith is what is needed in God, Jesus, The Holy Spirit. AMEN

@@herberttaylor466 Give my regards to Mao Zedong, responsible for about 45 million deaths. I am sure he was praising Jesus as untold millions were tortured to death under Mao's command.

_"When Arminians affirm that Christians can fall away, and when Calvinists deny it, it's often because they are agreed upon the assumption or presupposition that perseverance ultimately depends on the human being."_ I strongly disagree with this line. Calvinists affirm that God is the perseverer, not man. Read Westminster Confession chapter 17 _Of the Perseverance of the Saints_ and see that the first two sections are all about what God does in salvation. When it finally gets to man in the third and final section, it is all about the ways that man screws up.

@@oracleoftroy Re-reading that sentence of mine, I realize that I too quickly wrote it and expressed what I meant to say incorrectly. I"m a Calvinist and I do agree with you that Calvinists believe God is the preserver, not man. In fact, sometimes the 5th point of Calvinism, "The Perseverance of the Saints", is sometimes called "The Preservation of the Saints" by Calvinists because ultimately God is the one who preserves the believer, rather than the believer being the ultimate cause of their perseverance. Because God empowers them and ensures that they will, inexorably, persevere. I agree with that. What I actually meant to say in that incorrectly phrased statement is: //When Arminians affirm that Christians can fall away, and when Calvinists deny it, it's often because they are agreed upon the assumption or presupposition that [falling away] ultimately depends on the human being. But that's not the only possibility. // Since Calvinists believe that God has the power to cause true believers from falling away, it doesn't occur to them that true believers can fall away. But that's because they have the additional presupposition that God wouldn't allow/permit a true believer to fall away. Whereas Augustinians don't accept that assumption that God wouldn't allow/permit a true believer to fall away. Despite the fact that Augustinians also agree with Calvinists that God has the power to prevent a true believer from falling away [which Augustinians describe as the additional "gift of perseverance"].

@@oracleoftroy In addition to the correction that I made above. I have to say that Augustinians also [generally] believe that falling away is ultimately due to man's will. They usually deny double predestination, or any positive decree of damnation. However, some people, like myself, would argue that it's technically not true that falling away is ultimately due to the human will given Augustinianism. Since, in Augustinianism God could have given the gift of perseverance to any and all saints. Yet, God intentionally refuses to do that for some saints [for whatever inscrutable reasons He has]. In which case, logically speaking, folks like myself would argue that in Augustinianism falling away is ultimately due to God's will not man's. Though, Augustinians like to focus on human will as the cause, rather than God's will to protect God's honor.

@Sterling Crowne Are you speaking for Lutherans? If so I have some follow up queations.

@Sterling Crowne ok nevermind then

I'm a Lutheran and I'll attempt to answer your question. Key word being "attempt" lol. Anyways, Lutherans do hold to the belief of there being a certain group of people who are the elect, and these elect cannot fall finally away from the faith and end up in hell. While at the same time we hold to the idea that people can be true Christians and fall away from the faith as stated in this video. This is definitely confusing and paradoxical, but we believe these things because we think Scripture teaches them. God has chosen not to tie up the loose ends, so to speak. Every Christian comes to a point in which they ask the question "Why are some saved and not others?" Calvinists, Arminians, and Lutherans all have different answers to this. Calvinists say people are saved or damned by God's sovereign choice/work. Arminians traditionally say people are saved or damned by man's choice/work. Lutherans will say that people are saved by God's work alone, or are damned by man's choice alone. In other words, anyone who ends up in heaven can only say that it is by the grace of God alone that they were saved, and anyone who ends up in hell has no one to blame but him or herself for rejecting God's gracious gift of eternal life. Check out this episode of Pastor Cooper's podcast, which I think will answer a lot of your questions on the doctrine of election: justandsinner.libsyn.com/two-kinds-of-election Also, for an official explanation from the Lutheran Confessions, please refer to this link which is a reading from the Formula of Concord regarding election: www.bookofconcord.org/sd-election.php

Sterling Crowne Actually the entire counsel of scripture teaches it. Just as the verses that speak of election are true, the other verses that speak of falling away from the faith are also true. Warnings against falling away are, as far as my memory serves me, in EVERY New Testament book. No matter who each book is addressed to. It is simply the plainest understanding of the verses to understand them to be a warning to keep the faith. I would also like to stress that Lutheran preaching does not delve into the question of “Am I really elect?” Since we believe as scripture teaches that Christ died for all human beings, and that God desires all to be saved, we teach that if someone is a believing Christian who is continuing in the faith, they have absolutely no reason to believe they are not elect. It is important to understand that Lutherans hold to the scriptural teaching of single predestination. This means God elects people to salvation, but does not actually elect people to eternal damnation. Therefore, election is meant to solely be a doctrine of comfort. If someone is a repentant believer in Jesus Christ, they can surely believe that he died for them.

This might interest you: kzfaq.info/get/bejne/o9mDdJOlv9-ZhaM.html

Protestants (not counting Lutherans and Anglicans) think we are regenerated when we have an emotiinal experience at a revival meeting.(Hallelujah, brethren, I'm saved!) Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Lutherans, and Anglicans believe that this happens at the time of Baptism. Which is correct? That emotional experience can be very powerful. But emotions change. Quite often Protestants are told that after their salvation experience that they won't even WANT to sin any more, and when subsequent temptations and sins occur they are confused----hey, I'm not supposed to even want to sin anymore but here am I sinning, am I really saved? But if our faith is in our Baptism (and faith in Baptism is faith in Christ because Christ instituted Baptism) then that never changes. Yes, we can fall back into sin after our Baptism but we can always repent and confess, if we are truly sorry and have the intention of sinning no more. Emotions can be good (or bad). But emotions are not salvation.

Elaborate please on the "Lutherans would do well to explore this in greater depth". What exactly should we be exploring?

I'd like to think Lutherans are theosis in doctrine. I've never been more loving towards people in my life before becoming Lutheran. It's opened my eyes. It's biblical and we don't have to kiss icons, which are windows into heaven in Orthodoxy to achieve this. We don't have to ask from intercession or prayer of Saints that have fallen asleep as Catholics do because we have one intercessor and mediator, Christ Jesus. No other name under heaven. Do you know that means no other name? Not Roman Catholic nor Orthodox of which both claim there is no Salvation outside of their institution. That's putting God in a box. There's no Salvation outside of Christ. Why? Because he's the way, the truth and the life. He's the door! So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. John 10:7‭-‬9 ESV