I skimmed the video a bit - nice machine! I really don't do much BGA and I see people on the internet doing it with the same tools I have so I know it can be done. If you previously used the Aoyue I see in the video, well I see why that failed! If you check my old BGA video I analyse that station with a thermal camera: the heating element inside is never centered and the air temp ends up massively uneven - I mean like 500C on one side and 250C on the other. The Quick is a much better station and it should help a lot. An IR element (which is really not so IR but anyways, it's a heating plate) can probably be more even than the average hot air station. But kudos for the massive job, it looks like an impressive machine!

Thanks, appreciated! The journey is the fun! :)

unfortunately I did bake the board at 100C for a few hours. But yes, I need to pre-heat at higher temps and I am also getting a more reliable thermocouple. I did try the washer trick and no luck unfortunately. Interesting to hear about the higher humidity - in the UK humidity is on the high side most of the time indeed. Thanks for your input!

Thanks, appreciated! I have the stencil - I need to get that small preheater. I’ll experiment more with higher pre-heater and also a better thermocouple. One day… 🙂

It could be but the thing is that in an oven you heat up things very uniformly - I think. The purpose of the hot air is to direct the heat away from sensitive components. A plastic connector will melt at 250C - but an IC will not. My guess is that if you reflow a board in an oven at 300C, it will also popcorn. But I cannot be sure. Sorin usually deals with small ICs. Those are much simpler to work with: the heat immediately transfers to the substrate and reaches the solder balls. When it comes to large components, they are basically insulating the balls from the heat. My 2p opinion of course, who gives me the right to say all this if my process doesn't work :)

I'm glad you feel that way despite the outcome! Cheers!

Indeed - though it's high time to see some results! ;)

ahahaha the temptation was strong, trust me! :) (It would have probably resulted in a more entertaining video, the heatsink falling on the board, zoom in on the missing components, zoom in on my eye twitching and then wide shot of me throwing everything out of the window - thanks for watching!) 😂

Nice channel - so many videos! Susbscribed! I found at least one of those PS4 videos - I'm puzzled! You pre-heated the board to only 107C. Then you use hot air (what temp and airflow would you use on the station?) keeping it farther than I would - this will definitely help in heating up the PCB as well, which is crucial. I suppose in your scenario the idea is "I use low temp and keep the nozzle away so the APU **AND** the PCB slowly heat up over many minutes. What I did, I focussed the heat on top of the APU ending up overheating the APU which was unable to pass that heat to the PCB. Some thoughts: 1. I can also use some kapton on top of the APU - that might shield some of the most dangerous heat. I'm actually wondering if I should get a thin square of copper to keep on top of the ICs as a shield, so that the hot air heats primarily the PCB and not the IC. 2. I should keep the nozzle further away from the IC - at least with those massive ICs where the nozzle is just not big enough to heat up the PCB Is your Quick the DE or DW model? Finally, I see your PS4 has a smaller footprint which fits on the pre-heater. Sorry for the long message - and thanks for your comment!

@@tony359 I emailed you some links to my videos and my notes on how I did it.

Got it, thank you. It's very kind of you to share your knowledge and to invest time to help me!

Thanks for your input!

Yes, even the "BGA rework machines" are nothing compared to what they use at the factory. I've also noticed a JBC pre-heater is £9000 (yes, it's not a typo) while my "BBQ grille" is £100 :) I mean, you get what you pay for :) I'll get there one day! Thanks for watching!

thank you!

Thanks again!

Yes, some videos can be frustrating (or suspicious if you want!) :)

Oh no, I never feel better when something like that happens! :) Sorry about the HP! It now displays beautiful pictures in the monitors' heaven! ;)

Never too late! Others have also suggested a higher pre-heating temp, up to 200C. I haven't tested again but it's something I am going to try for sure, thanks for commenting!

@@tony359 if you have more questions feel free to contact me on the email listed on my channel, I work with BGA soldering pretty much every day so I'm pretty sure I can contribute to your success

It is very kind of you - not everybody like to share! It's also a great opportunity for me to improve on my Portuguese! Thank you!

I have a board which is used to drive coffee roasters. It comes with a software and 4 thermocouples. In theory I could drive the plate to follow a profile. The issue, IMHO, is that the thermocouples never give you an accurate reading. They barely touch the PCB and what they read is not the PCB temp - more a mixture of the surrounding air and the PCB. So I never considered those profiles accurate. But who knows, giving my success maybe I am mistaken :)

Thanks! It’s also nice to know how to do that in case the fault is not so obvious!

Yes, I can agree with that: the bottom line is that I need to heat up the PCB more. The issue with these ICs is that they're as big as the nozzle is and that's the biggest nozzle you can buy. I need something larger so hot air also goes on the PCB. Thank you!

That definitely applies to PS3, XBOX and that era components - a PS4 APU might be faulty as you say of course but it shouldn't be a case of "they all die because of a manufacturing issue". But of course, anything is possible. I'd like to learn the process anyways though - if I can't even flow the solder, I can't even think of replacing the APU! Thanks for your input! :)

Thank you! Yes, I never stop learning of course! :)

"you destroyed the PS4 but that IC removal... amazing!" :D Thanks!

@@tony359 the ps4 is not important! your learning & fun, our entertainment - that seems to have an importance to you - has! :-) am i wrong? For me it is just a question of viewpoint...

You're not wrong! Though it's cool(ER) if you can also win. But hey, we learn from our failures! My comment was only ironic!

@@tony359 irony is too difficile for me, i'm kind'a sheldon on this (only on this). you have to send me a fax to warn me before beeing ironic. :-)

oh, I can understand! And in writing "emotions" are not showing so don't worry! (Can I have your fax number please?) ;)

For smaller components sure. For an HDMI port, you pre-heat and then apply heat underneath or you melt the component. Even for a capacitor, you heat up underneath. For an APU you have to warm up the whole board but yes, the "best" BGA rework stations have an additional nozzle underneath to do exactly what you say. I think I will try modding my setup so more heat is focussed underneath and particularly under the APU. Thanks!

I baked it for 5 hours - The problem with 12 hours is that I use my pre-heater (with a hood) to bake it and I don't feel like leaving it unsupervised. I'd need a proper oven and I don't have space for that. But thanks for your input!

@@tony359 A cheap toaster oven will do tbh, they keep temps pretty low at 70-100C so it won't burn anything down.

Of course - I just don't have space for an oven! :) Particularly because I seldom do BGA and I cannot justify that amount of space used.

@@tony359 I justify it being a 2 in 1 machine. It can bake powder coated metals + pre-heat boards!

I would definitely get one if I had more space. It can be useful. To dry a board for example. But when you start walking on stuff you have to prioritise what to get and what not to get :)

VERY interesting! That phase ends up together with all the others so... uhm........ I need to find a thermal analysis of a working board! Thank you!

I got it from Ebay, no special place. It is a must! Get a few meters, you don't need much, it will mix with the existing solder and lower the temp massively!

Very kind of you, thanks! I cannot give up now, I am close to master BGA, I can feel it! :)

0201 means SMALLER? OMG! Those are just grain of dust!

The full sentence could not be spoken but should be clear enough :)

@@tony359 it is clear - nellculo

ahahaha!

@@tony359 Or "in the neck", which works for the English and is a subtle quasi-homophone in Italian :D

"in the neck" is the polite version, yet :)

Well, when re-flowing I have my massive extractor or I die of toxic fumes. That's why I am mostly rely on the IR meter. But The fact that the thermocouple read 150 when I had 170 at the IR is also puzzling. After all, IR thermometers will read depending on reflectivity - so accuracy might not be great. Try measuring a shiny heatsink :) Variables! A lot! :)

I very much agree with you!

Your comment made me think. I think one reason why this fails is that the APU is quite large and the largest nozzle I can get (45x45) is not large enough, that is, it barely covers the APU and does not cover some of the nearby PCB. As you say, I need to get heat at the solder balls, not the top of the IC. Some thoughts I've just had 1. Keep the nozzle farther away. That way the hot air will reach more PCB as well (my station is pretty powerful, it's the 200L/m version) 2. Install a (1mm?) copper rectangle on top of the APU. That will somehow shield the APU a bit and let the hot air get to the PCB. I think I see this on some videos sometimes? 3. The reason why "IR heaters" are more succesfull is that they are much bigger, they heat up a larger area - hence the heat reaches the underneath. 4. Crank up the pre-heater 5. Install a not-too-fine metal mesh under the board with an opening around the APU. That might allow to turn up the pre-heater so the area under the APU gets hotter without having to overheat the whole board Food for thoughts! :)

@@tony359 I would say your thinking is definitely on the right track! Pre-heater aside, the whole area in the vicinity of the of the APU needs to come to full reflow temps. All the copper inside the PCB is at pre-heat temp, and the heat pushed into the top of the package is trying to get into metal BGA balls.. attached to copper planes.. that aren't yet at the correct temperature for the operation to proceed! Coming at it from the top ends up in wayyyy more popcorn events! The metal mesh idea is interesting also. One thing I have also done, is in the pre-heat stages, put a silicone pad over the IC region for a while to trap heat from freely radiating away, just keep in mind melting temperature of silicone.

Ideally I'd need hot air from the bottom as well - some BGA machines have that and I think it's why they tend to work. More expensive pre-heater (the JBC one is £9000!!) can be set in zones. I've been thinking of making my own pre-heater made of smaller heating elements but I don't do this so often so I don't think it's worth. I wish I could find a way to temporarily boost the pre-heater under the re-flowing area. Maybe the mesh might work - but maybe as you say just a small protection on the APU would be enough - maybe just some kapton tape? Watch this space :)

@@tony359 I actually didn't want to ramble too much and suggest things that I'm uncertain if they have enough power, I personally tend to reflow mid-sized BGA's with my MHP30, the area of the plate as you might guess is 30x30, which obviously isn't big enough for THIS project.. but.. they just recently released MHP50, so if 50x50 is a big enough chip contact area from below. I'm likely going to buy one, just to have options in size. The only thing finicky, is you do need a reliable way to hold the board to he correct heights, and sometimes access to the buttons.. back is odd placement.. screen in front, reaching under a hot board.. etc.. ow my finger is on fire. etc etc!

Well, I don't do that very often, I cannot justify investing in BGA reworking equipment just for fun :) What do you mean with "hot air is not enough to raise the APU temp to 230"?

@@tony359 the hose and the air gun are undersized in my opinion compared with a larger square tube for bga station. Ps board are notorious for heat dissipation. Anyway using higher preheating temp is always a good option. Older honton i think you can source one used less then half price… depends on your luck :)

Well, that's the 861DE version, 200L/m. In comparison the common DW is 120L/m. And smaller "Aoyue" are 40L/m. So I should have enough juice. I just think it's a matter of heating it more and maybe a bit better. I appreciate the suggestion but I don't have space for a BGA station! :)

@@tony359 so, i have bga and the t’s not that huge, but it does it’s job. It uses hot air but it has a larger diameter. It has upper heating, lower heating and preheating plates. It’s awkward because you can only use them all 3 in the middle of the heating area… it does it’s job flawlessly. Preheating is se to 240c and i ran the reflow/desolder/solder program when i see on preheating 180c Preheating works all the time, also when the main program ia running! At the end of the program preheating reaches 240! Board is at 210c The board sits above preheating like 10cm… NOW: for your preheating, i think there you made a mistake by sealing with aluminum foil. Why? Because the temp. sensor of the preheating ia sitting right above the heating plate. Creating a chamber, will keep the hot air trapped, this will “fool” the temp sensor and the station will cut off power to the heating elements. Indeed you have 200c air underneath the pcb, but it won’t be enough to heat your pcb layers. Removing the foil will let the air circulate, temp.sensor will read correctly, and by nature the hot air will rise and heat your board, of course will suck cold air underneath but it will be rapidly become hot… i hope you understand my thoughts:)

If I don't seal the edges of the board get too cold. Sealing creates a chamber, sure, but it traps the hot air and prevents uneven heating which might warp the board. What matters is that the PCB reaches the required temperature AT THE TOP and it did - at least my laser meter said that but the thermocouple - as I explained in the video - did not agree. Next time I'll definitely try a higher pre-heating temp, I'll give it more time to evenly heat up and I'll try to get a better thermocouple. I appreciate those stations are good but I don't do BGA! :)

Of course, the pre-heater is there to heat the board uniformly - though this PS4 is large and it inevitably overspills the heating area. I tried on the PS3 board, I mentioned that in the video but it was at the end. 200C pre-heating is probably a good course of action which I'll try soon! Cheers!

Sorry, I wrote before end. A little tip. Start with old chips, like VIA 8235. They're smalls south bridges .One day I tell you my saga trying to do this in 2005. Can you imagine any boy asking for stain balls at any Store? Rsrsrs. "Is this a joke, boy? Get out of here!" To measure pre heating, put you thermal at top of this chip. When reach 200 degrees, look the temperature that is measuring at the bottom. For example, 200 at the top and 250 at bottom. Then you start to heat the top of this chip. Never Go higher than 245 or 250. BUT!!! BUT!!! Listen, rsrsrsrsrsr! Be carefull. Sometime isn't any cracked balls. Sometimes the problem os with detaching layers.. Some connections between layers can crack. I'll suggest you to get a clamp to press the memory chip against the board. Thanks for your videos. I'm trying to film some videos by fixing my boards.

@@jonatas464 The thing with old boards is that... I want to fix them! I never end up with something "broken enough" to use as sacrificial boards! I do have 2 XBOX 360 I bought for this task. Yes, I understand what you mean. Check the temp on the IC and then look at what the pre-heater says. For the PCB to read 170C, my pre-heater has to be set to 275C. I'm aware that what the pre-heater says is only the temp at its sensor. However, it's the "thermocouple on top" which puzzles me. That won't tell you the IC temp. 3/4 of the thermocouple is touching air. That's why I am using the laser meter - but even that one will depend on the reflectivity of the surface. I'm sourcing what should be a better thermocouple. Hopefully that might help in getting some more reliable readings :) I tried applying pressure on the APU and on the RAM, it never went past the BLOD unfortunately. Thank you!

@@tony359 maybe put some thermal paste to help heat to reach IC?

Hi there - I watched some of his videos, he uses a BGA machine. I feel the massive advantage of those machines is the air nozzle at the BOTTOM of the board. Heat has to come primarily from the PCB, not through the IC and I feel that my mistake is to blast too much heat to the APU while I should try to get more to the PCB. I'm getting a few pointers - most go in opposite direction of course - but I have a feeling the common part is "more heat to the PCB". Too bad this video has been very very unpopular so I have had very little feedback as a consequence... :( Thanks for watching and for commenting!

I won't give up! :)

well, it's too late now.. :(

I’m ok with more time but 150 feels a bit too much for some components - But who knows, maybe it’s the solution. Thanks for your input!

I am aware - Anyways, I need to flow the solder first in any case! :)

@@tony359 yes, totally right. In my opinion the problem is the early pb free soldering. Many devices of that Era died after some hundred heat cool cycles because of this. The Golden Era of plopping caps and breaking balls! I remember it as the p4 Era. 😀

it was an interesting time indeed! :)

'cause it's fun but it also means more work :)

Super appreciated! Thank you, it's fixed now!

what is an "air down preheater"? Of course I'm happy to hear all other experiences. Do you mind sharing some numbers so I can compare? Thanks!

PS3 fail for a manufacturing defect in the graphic IC - same as XboX. The PS4 does not suffer this problem and more often than not a reball can cure these issues - AFAIK. Even if it wasn't working though I'd like to be able to do that without damaging the IC! :) Thanks for watching!