Showdown - 2013 Cadillac ATS 2.0T vs. 2013 BMW 328i

Showdown - 2013 Cadillac ATS 2.0T vs. 2013 BMW 328i - CAR and DRIVER

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12 жыл бұрын

The 2013 Cadillac ATS 2.0T tries to dethrone the 2013 BMW 328i from the front of the entry-level luxury segment on the latest episode of Car and Driver: Tested.
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CARS: Cadillac ATS 2.0T, BMW 328i
LOCATION: West Virginia
MAG EDITORS: Jared Gall
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Hosted by the editors of Car and Driver magazine, this show puts the audience into the action on new-car reviews, comparison tests, auto-show coverage, and more. Our experts drive and test the latest models, attend automotive events around the world, and check out the latest in-vehicle technology like massaging seats and night-vision systems. Viewers will also have the opportunity to write in and extend the conversation.
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Пікірлер: 601

@stevodfn 10 жыл бұрын

I've had all 3 Series BMWs since 1991 and I'd gladly change that for the ATS just because it has kept the core driving pleasure values BMW has gradually lost during the years. And the fact that it looks so fresh and unique.

@J-W.- 10 жыл бұрын

Im sorry but the ats is sexy as hell compared to the bmw

@vVeazel 12 жыл бұрын

Those LEDs on the ATS look godly.

@VanessaMaeFan18 9 жыл бұрын

The most biased review ever. Thats C/D for you. ....

@SoManyDogs 10 жыл бұрын

I have an ATS 2.0 rental while my other car is being fixed. It is pretty impressive. I think the 2.0 is better matched to the Automatic. The car IS fun as heck in the twisties, that magnetic suspension kicks ass! Other than the ill matched manual...the one I am driving is an auto with paddles..., it is a very very nice car, and this coming from a long time BMW/Audi driver and fan. Those who dismiss Cadillac just because it is American do themselves a disservice until they go drive one.

@Jwdude123 4 жыл бұрын

Enderle Property Service correct. This car is sort of a secret. ATS reminds me of my old series 3 bmw, but better.

@TheHm3 12 жыл бұрын

Pretty incredible that Cadillac just got into this class and they're already fighting the leader of the class. Same with the XTS, they re-introduced that class and they're on top of the class almost fighting Bentleys! GM has done well with Cadillac!

@fpeter6365 10 жыл бұрын

GM should really bring Cadillac back to Europe. I love this ATS, especially a 2 door Cuope version.

@GearZenChannel 8 жыл бұрын

There are killer deals to be had on used ATS's. Mine is on the way.... can't wait!

@Cellcycle01 11 жыл бұрын

Great review! I test drove both cars and I have the same feedback. Well done Mr. Golf.

@gizsno 12 жыл бұрын

Highly entertaining and informative. Thank you.

@clintkeller951 11 жыл бұрын

I got to take a good look at an ATS in LA today, and that machine is stunningly gorgeous.

@Troubleshooter125 12 жыл бұрын

Question: was this the stock BMW suspension or the "Sport" package? I didn't see any badges on the sides of your Bimmer, so I'm guessing stock. If that is the case, is the Sport package substantially different and therefore worthy of a separate look?

@political7675 7 жыл бұрын

i think that the caddi is also much cheaper to maintain as the parts are made in the USA.

@BDBBailey 6 жыл бұрын

I wonder if the used a performance optioned Caddy or the Luxury optioned? With the wood door trim it looked to me like the Luxury model.

@crowbird213 10 жыл бұрын

Top German engineers work for car companies. Top US engineers work for the military. That's the problem.

@joedanvers1010 2 жыл бұрын

I've owned both cars. My last BMW was a 2014 3 series, my current daily driver is a 2014 ATS. The Cadillac does everything the BMW does, but it does it easier. The 0-60 time reported in this video for the ATS is way slow. I've recorded mine at 5.3. And I have done zero mods to it. It's a wonderful car. Comfortable, fast, nimble...it should never have been discontinued, imo.

@Gt1los Жыл бұрын

I have a 2014 with lots of mods I’m a 20 year old Kid it’s my first car and I love it

@ithinkihaveebola5238 Жыл бұрын

How is ur ATS holding up so far? Idk if u have the same model but I just bought a 2014 ATS 2.0T and no check engine lights are on. I'm really Enjoying it so far. I've heard mixed reviews about it but I've heard more positive reviews than negative

@joedanvers1010 Жыл бұрын

@@ithinkihaveebola5238 It's an amazing little car. I've owned BMW's, Porsche's, muscle cars (1988 Trans Am GTA, 1968 Camaro, etc...) and this car does EVERYthing they all did but it does it easier. I have 104+thousand miles on it and it still runs, accelerates and tracks wonderfully. I have ZERO issues with this car and I really wish they still produced it because I'd buy another. (Mine is a 2014 ATS4 2.0T as well) Drive it and enjoy it!

@ZoidsXtwonine 11 жыл бұрын

Good review Jared!

@Vorcor0 11 жыл бұрын

the ATS has been sold in other countries for 8+ years? can you plz tell me where I can find prof of this?

@angelatrejo885 8 жыл бұрын

Um ... TEAM CADDI ANYONE?!

@penvon 8 жыл бұрын

1 month & no likes?...I guess not

@MagnumPI4 8 жыл бұрын

Just got my ATS yesterday, test drove it along with a BMW and an Audi. Much happier with the ATS, plus everyone won't assume I am a banker or a hairdresser.

@andrewrout8712 6 жыл бұрын

crickets

@thesemfnnutts 6 жыл бұрын

All day!

@RagingBad 5 жыл бұрын

@calebwoods9358 3 жыл бұрын

This is 8 years late but holy moly who needs Ambien with videos like these?

@mplscarsales6652 2 жыл бұрын

Just bought my premium v6 Ats AWD I love it flys looks great and drives in all conditions I needed AWD I live in Minnesota

@TedBealmear 11 жыл бұрын

Great video! Seems like Cadillac did pretty well for its first try at the 3 series. Also, where in West Virginia was this shot?

@AB-80X 11 жыл бұрын

My first car was an E30 325IC (M20), that was a wonderfull car, so was the E36 328I (M52) I had after. My E39, 530i (M54) was without problems too. Prior to what she has now, the wife had an E61, which as you say, is a complicated car, but never an issue, unless you count the styling, lol. There's no doubt that the SBC is an awesome engine, I was more thinking about the rest of the car. I drag a '73 TA myself, which had an SBC, but that is having a new BBC built this winter.

@Canakar360 11 жыл бұрын

Great, honest review. I like that.

@topdollars2 12 жыл бұрын

This guy is the only reason why I subscribed to C&D. One of the best car journalists out there. Period.

@knightky007 11 жыл бұрын

7:28 how come bmw has fender of its side/wing mirrors in black and the whole car itself is in white? is that normal? just wondering...(excuse me for my english)

@BestJinjo 11 жыл бұрын

Ya, it does. I've seen a couple. I like BMW in black myself but for some reason I always preferred the 2-door 3 series. This new 4 door is better than the last generation in looks. Looks like a mini 5 series now. The problem is the price. It gets pretty expensive once you start adding nice options and leather and stuff.

@shiftym1 11 жыл бұрын

I'm from WV! I can't believe someone came to visit us for a car review! There are a ton of backroads but most of them are full of potholes. Also the warning signs for upcoming turns never make any sense. One will tell you 25, and you can go 40. The next will say 30 and you need to go 15. The best is occasionally you just get a yellow sign with an arrow showing witch way the turn goes, but no warning whatsoever on how harsh that turn is going to be, its usually harsh.

@MeetTheGays Жыл бұрын

This is the first time I switched to American! I had went from a 2010 Benz e class, to a 2014 bmw 3 series and now I have a 2019 Cadillac cts only the 2.0turbo awd the luxury line and it’s absolutely perfect in every way. Cadillac finally made the right changes to bring me over. Styling is different interior is ok but the driving dynamics are what got me over.

@elitedeciel 12 жыл бұрын

They are. I've test driven 3.6 and it wasn't too bad. And though it was automatic (only one available) and things felt good, I'm just too used to my E90 335i. I just want to hear pros' comment on 3.6 automatic transmission.

@aluisious 5 жыл бұрын

I drove an F30 to Tahoe for a weekend, after driving my girlfriends E92 and my own regrettable Fusion fleet car...the F30 feels like a nice version of the Fusion more than it does the E92. That was a driving car.

@mico092495 12 жыл бұрын

Why does some of your vids unavailable in where I live? Anyways awesome channel :)

@ivanlai0225 12 жыл бұрын

good timing. motor trend released the exact same comparison yesterday.

@SMaxxin 10 жыл бұрын

I narrowed my new car choice down to these two cars and I was 99% sure it would be the ATS because I have always wanted a Cadillac until I went for a test drive. I'm 6'5 and with the seat as low as it would go I didn't fit. I had enough leg room but not enough head room as my head was touching the roof. I have to say I was very surprised and disappointed that I didn't get a chance to drive it. I fit into the 3 series just fine.

@1970borntorun 9 жыл бұрын

Well, I just picked up a beautiful Blk/Blk w/Sports Package BMW 2003 530i, and I LOVE it !! This E39 series is the last of the simple, pure 5 Series models (along with the E46 3-Series of that vintage) before they got Bangle-ized and BMW became more interested in Marketing and emphasizing luxury than creating the "Ultimate Driving Machine". No I-Drive, no soft brakes/suspension, no turbo, no lack of steering feel in my car!! :) What the hell happened in Bavaria ??

@jayd8919 5 жыл бұрын

Shut up about your old ass car. Nobody cares. You cant beat all the extra torque from the inline 6 twin turbos. Go back to the past and take your slow car with you

@shizzy_Snorlax 12 жыл бұрын

I want to see a comparison between these two cars with automatics. I am glad that the ATS holds up using manuals (although both are poor), but if I was looking to get this car I would be looking for a automatic transmission.

@7r4iL3r 11 жыл бұрын

radar-warner is still alowed in US?

@Trades46 9 жыл бұрын

I feel people today default to BMW 3 series because of the badge than anything. The F30 in particular is very numb compared to the competition. The only saving grace is the stellar powertrain, but if you just wanted a 4dr sedan to go fast in a straight line, why not a more comfortable, larger & much cheaper Camry or Accord V6? This is what makes me appeal to the ATS. It has luxury amenities yet never forgets its mission first & foremost; A compact SPORTS Sedan. Driving feel & handling is why you're supposed to buy this class of car, not for trunk space/legroom or showing off to friends & family.

@Trades46 9 жыл бұрын

WarmSoftKitty Not all German cars are like that, but the 3 series comes off notable because it used to be the trademark of great handling RWD 4dr sedan.

@ricktobin9920 8 жыл бұрын

+Trades46 Man you must smoke crack! my 2013 328xi is the best BMW 3 yet

@Trades46 8 жыл бұрын

Rick Tobin I don't even smoke. Then again I expect nothing more from ones who default to that Three-letter German Brand when they want to compensate for something in life.

@ricktobin9920 8 жыл бұрын

Man the BMW is still top dog...you know it. We all know it. the Cadillac is garbage and you know it.

@uniquegaming432 8 жыл бұрын

+Rick Tobin stop being a fanboy u only bought that car because the brand not because is good I would buy bmw for its name but it's always same dahs oars and boring

@TheDriver458 12 жыл бұрын

@mahballzrhari actually I heard that the CTS-V is gunning for the M5. Since they're both about the same size I guess.

@krispysweekendgarage6892 8 ай бұрын

I have the 15' model and love it. Good torque smooth drivetrain and feels solid. Cadillac did its homework.

@kelleredison 11 жыл бұрын

It's always about 'personal opinion' right!? So glad that we have many choices in the sports luxury segment!

@paulcondie2520 4 жыл бұрын

I see thousands of bmw everyday!!!! But you might see one exceptionally looking ats around! Sorry the ats is a sexy bitch! I have one and love it

@pookg5834 4 жыл бұрын

Word 💯

@paulcondie2520 3 жыл бұрын

@@lilnicky9241 a little over 42,000. I have a 2015 ats 3.6 premium with performance pkg rwd. Black raven with the black chrome pkg. No problems at all

@grkvain 11 жыл бұрын

I second that, I Believe he was talking about offerings in the entry models, for the same price the caddys suspension is a good as the M-Sport but no where near the M-Performance. Very very good try by Caddy. I can't wait to see what a ATS-V Version will be like.

@chrisdblue 12 жыл бұрын

the interior of that cadi loooks siiiiick.

@krnboy8171 12 жыл бұрын

why do they make those touch sensitive panels for the AC/Heat and such on the center consol... i just think some things should be just left as a physical buttons...

@ghe229 12 жыл бұрын

Wow... Motor Trend said these cars were nearly identical in every aspect. Here the BMW is a clear victor. Nice review.

@doublen675 12 жыл бұрын

Nice to see Cadillac at least in the running in this class for a change though.

@cadrolls 11 жыл бұрын

When was the last time you heard of a BMW driver saying: "Gee, I LOVE my massaging seats"? No one likes them.

@porterjacob94 11 жыл бұрын

Do you know what part of West Virgina you where in?

@krbias33 11 жыл бұрын

It used to be that way. You would have to get the S Line package to get the AWD, but now its standard on everything...

@Brecht1008 11 жыл бұрын

I love the Cadillac! I have seen too many BMW's in my state.

@jkheslekrants 11 жыл бұрын

That's the absolute truth. This Di Turbo 2.0 is a world class engine. It's built incredibly stout, power is strong and linear, amazing torque especially for a 4 and is great on fuel. I've been waiting for GM to use this engine more and they finally are. Ever since its debut in the 2008 Cobalt this 2.0T has been a game changer. I'm lucky enough to drive one every day in my 2010 Cobalt SS. Fun little car. It can't replace a rear drive V8 but it is a great little car with a Phenomenal Engine

@AB-80X 11 жыл бұрын

Man, a sensible and good answer on utube, that's rare. Thank you very much. The diff, hm, not sure I will agree. The 328 got about 60000 miles pushing 600+ sc hp. I did, and still do, take good care of my cars. Track days ect. can wear out any car. Currently I drive a 997-2 and my whife, who is as car nuts as I am, drive a 212 Cabrio. All our cars do see track time, why bother if they did not?

@cadrolls 11 жыл бұрын

Corvettes have one of the highest resale values of any sports car. 85% of all Corvettes ever built since 1953 are still in service. The other sports cars can only dream of such a number.

@katanamast279 11 жыл бұрын

That 2.0 turbo in the Cadillac makes alot of power. Im impressed. The Subaru WRX needs to match or exceed that

@roydied15 12 жыл бұрын

me too. Much more practical for the winters i have to drive through in chicago. thats why i bought a second hand a6 though :P

@_Tommmmmm_ 11 жыл бұрын

They changed the leather. Damn is it nice now in the XTS and ATS.

@FoxEngine 11 жыл бұрын

thank you!

@dougjp 11 жыл бұрын

Well said, I raise a glass to you!

@krbias33 11 жыл бұрын

Oops, I'm a little behind on the times... I think all of them came standard with AWD for a few years. The A3 still has standard FWD with optional AWD now. Can't keep up with my car trivia :P

@JspookSS 12 жыл бұрын

"This car is so incredible that a car more incredible lost the comparison" -Caranddriver

@cadrolls 11 жыл бұрын

You need to take a look at Corvette's new interior that is all imported Italian leather. Especially, the two-tone leather. Corvettes are just as high tech as the exotic cars of Europe. There is one important difference though: the Corvette will give you 100,000 trouble free miles whereas you will need to hire your own mechanic to have Europe's best. That is well known.

@Wositsch 11 жыл бұрын

Yeah the M sport suspension costs 403€ in my country, thats really expensive, have to sell the house... Does the Cadillac's MRC suspension come as standard? I didn't want to start an argument which car is better. I just wanted to say if the reviewer thinks the ride is too soft he can buy a sport suspension, thats why there are several options to pick when you are buying your car, so that you can individualise your car, whether you want your car to feel more comfy or sporty...

@CSXKid5016 11 жыл бұрын

Ah, well now I understand! Thanks!

@gmwdim 11 жыл бұрын

Not only are Michigan's roads too flat and boring to do driving comparisons, they're also in terrible condition and will damage anything with a low clearance.

@Buc_Stops_Here 11 жыл бұрын

I never thought I would hear Car and Driver say a Cadillac is more fun than driving a BMW. That has been the stance of the mag since the 1970s - the BMW is fun to drive. Yet they recommend the BMW despite that. I recently test drove both cars with the turbo and the V6. The reality is both cars are competitive now and that is something hard to admit for most people. It depends on what you prefer.

@cedrac18 11 жыл бұрын

Motortrend AND Car and Driver wow. I had high hopes for the ATS but 2nd is still pretty good can't wait for the next Lexus IS and the infinity G37.

@elitedeciel 12 жыл бұрын

Road noise? I drive E90 335i and when I test drove ATS 3.6, it was a lot more quiet for sure.

@fcrane44 11 жыл бұрын

My situation is the same as anyone who is choosing a car. True luxury is the ability to get from point A to point B without any problems from your automobile. Some of the cheaper cars are the better cars no matter what emblem is on the hood.

@GetCucumbered 11 жыл бұрын

State of the art Haptic Infotainment Technology LoL

@cadrolls 11 жыл бұрын

The crash test ratings for the XTS are EXCELLENT! That, in no way, mitigates the fact that German cars, with BMW being the worst of all, have the HIGHEST fatality rates, per mile driven, of any other car on the road. Cadillacs are NOT mainly driven by 70 year olds. The average age for a new Cadillac buyer is around 56 years old. That number is dropping fast too. 70% of all ATS sales are coming from previous German car buyers who are SICK of paying through the nose for ultra expensive repairs.

@JonasRosenven 12 жыл бұрын

I totally get what you mean. The lenght of these videos alone mean that they can never really do the cars any real justice. On top of that they are often tested with an emphasis on the car being faster/more fun than the other. I watch them as light entertainment at best and I think that was the spirit in which they were made. I still would like something more thorough though.. I get why cars are compared, and they should be, but.. I hope this is not what makes people decide on a car :)

@nyak63RUS 11 жыл бұрын

Give me a break. Both these cars can do more on the road than most people are ever capable of handling. Their technology outdoes most people's needs, and they'll both help you survive a crash. There's no point in calling one "soulless." Some people like the BMW, others prefer the Cadillac, get over it.

@KryztalKitsu 11 жыл бұрын

Cadillac ATS is manufactured in Michigan. Michigan is a part of the U.S. last I checked. :P

@CUZC0M 11 жыл бұрын

i just got a ats and i be killin the old nasty lookin bmws ya feel me

@Dgannt 11 жыл бұрын

The reason the new 3-series is softer is because of the introduction of the new 1, 2 and 4-series. The 3-series in this configuration is aimed at the more mature buyers, the ones that used to drive the old 3-series. If you want more of the sporty feel you now can choose between the 1, 2 and 4-series. It's a pity Cady didn't go all the way. Like most US cars the interior where we spend all the time driving is left to last and often not so good. Look at old Corvettes. The new one looks great.

@TeamEpsilonRacing 12 жыл бұрын

why is the caddy almost a second slower to 60 with more power and similar weight?

@Sandia49 6 жыл бұрын

TeamEpsilonRacing because the "240 horsepower" bmw engine actually has closer to 270. They lie about their horsepower.

@Breakfast__Burrito 11 жыл бұрын

I'll explain it to you. The E46 is widely considered to be the best handling 3 series ever. After that, BMW was accused of softening the 3 series and making it more of a family car than a sport saloon. This is why Cadillac mimicked the handling. They didn't copy anything on the E46, as they used a completely different design, they just wanted it to perform similarly because they, like the rest of the world, realized it handled better than the current one.

@venom5809 12 жыл бұрын

Knew you had to rig it for the BMW in the end. Typical. I used CUE on the XTS and it worked flawlessly. The voice commands even figured out what I had to say with no problem, even with radio stations.

@raptorlp03 11 жыл бұрын

I never understood why people liked BMWs interiors. Functional, but incredibly subdued for a luxury car. I used to valet a while back and I'd get in 5 and 7 series bimmers and always think how the interior looked like something in a truck that was designed to be washed out with a garden hose when it was dirty. I'm not sure about the ATS in particular, but GM has really stepped up with their new interiors. I think the build qualities are so similar at this point and it comes down to preference.

@cadrolls 11 жыл бұрын

Recent inventions? There are too many to list. The magnetic suspension was developed by Cadillac's Delphi subsidiary. So good is it that Ferrari, the world's leader in high performance sports cars, has chosen it for all their new automobiles. BMW and Mercedes offers vinyl seats as standard, along with plastic dasboards and door panels whereas Cadillac offers PREMIUM Italian leather and Italian suede on the interior ceiling (XTS). Cadillac is WORLD CLASS now. It's a new game.

@RALewis1234 11 жыл бұрын

Well said.

@BestJinjo 11 жыл бұрын

Ya, you are right. I was a bit harsh. The new GS is actually more sporty than the new 5 series (unless it's M5). The LFA is amazing but I think it's too expensive for what it offers compared to the GTR. Can't wait to see what the new IS looks like. The current IS-F was too harsh and rated worse than M3 and C63 AMG. Hopefully they'll do a nicer balance of luxury and performance suspension on the new one. In general though Lexus cars used to be very soft and floaty with poor steering feel.

@Alexn1067 11 жыл бұрын

I owned a 1999 VW Jetta, it was a good car, pretty decent reliability but when something did break, it was catastrophically expensive to fix. They are quality vehicles, but I wouldn't say they are the best value in that they are pricey in every way.

@kbc3000 11 жыл бұрын

I am from Munich, Bavaria and send Oktoberfest Greetings to all out there! Here where BMW is at home i wish the ATS and Cadillac all the best! American cars on the street are as rare as Rolls Royce here, there was a boom 1978 /79 Through the years after Daimler Chrysler only Chevrolet brings a little US flair.. btw i am driving a Buick Park Avenue Ultra for my daily driver here in Munich.. never say another in town! :-)

@youregatorbait 4 жыл бұрын

•Ats is definitely faster than 14.8. •if you’re going to compare interiors and drivetrains, get an Ats with black on black interior with the A6 auto Bias is strong in this comparison

@clubracer6 7 жыл бұрын

What a been nice if they at least used a sport package or better yet M sport package car.

@Eldoradoman99 11 жыл бұрын

BMW must have a big advertising stake in the up comming issue. He is the only reviewer I have seen so far that has ragged this vehicle so hard.

@Vaark 11 жыл бұрын

It all comes down to how the car looks... and I love that BMW, then Mercedes... Then Audi... and Cadillac.

@MaineDustoff 11 жыл бұрын

Yeah, for a nice chunk of change more. The fact that there are better, but more expensive versions doesn't change how the one he was driving handled. Besides, I'm sure Cadillac has ATS-V models in the works to compete with BMW's M models

@surewin1773 11 жыл бұрын

@straightedge442 I'm not talking about marketing strategy- I'm talking about vehicle design. Two different things.

@jsiszero 11 жыл бұрын

I always felt that Car and Driver reviews are better than Motor Trend

@cadrolls 11 жыл бұрын

The Cadillac just won two very important Car of the Year awards. It also has one distinction missing from the over rated BMW: one of the lowest fatality rates, PER MILE DRIVEN, of any car being sold while BMW has the HIGHEST in the industry. If you were to take all American inventions off the BMW, you'd have a car with no electric starter, lights, power windows, locks, A/C, radio, etc... If you were to do the same with a Cadillac minus German inventions, you would have... A Cadillac♥

@Telcom100 12 жыл бұрын

The cord from the radar detector keeps bumping into the CUE system? Come on, Cadillac engineers, should have anticipated that!

@gabok111 11 жыл бұрын

sooo true

@ivanovsd 11 жыл бұрын

My very firs car was a 1995 320, never ever broke down, second 98 325 tds, solid as a rock I am curently driving a 330 xd and all I do is put fuel and oil, Im writing on my own expirience, so I will keep my opinion!

@elitedeciel 12 жыл бұрын

I agree with you personally. However, CUE was so foreign, when I played around with it, I felt repelled. Just something anyone needs to get used to it.

@MrMEGSWONETWOTHREE 3 жыл бұрын

love my ATS 2.0 Turbo

@ratmtbola 11 жыл бұрын

Now this sounds completely different than a few comments ago. That's all I said - Cadillacs are just as safe as their German competitors - not better, not worse. They're all on the same level. And I can agree with you on the fact that Cadillac has significantly improved in the last 4-5 years. The new CTS looks good and could indeed compete with the established manufacturers in the segment. So far the 5 series still takes the crown though - and believe it or not, but I'm not even a big BMW fan.

@derbigpr500 11 жыл бұрын

Next time try not using the base model of the 3 series if you want fun. One thing BMW does is allow you to totally customize your car. Thats why there are three lines to choose. Sport, Luxury and Urban. Base model, is a base model.If you want sportier handling, get the Sport Line package, and you get adaptive sport suspension, adaptive steering, etc.