What people fail to notice is how Catelyns advice wasnt all that bad. Ahe advised Robb not to let Theon return to Pyke. If only he listened to her he might have won.

I really like how you acknowledge that not all the reasons you state may factor into her own thought process - it’s something many people don’t consider in general, but also suggests that maybe Cat is more instinctively intelligent than many give her credit for

Tbh it's always baffled me how people call Cat stupid for arresting Tyrion, when the person who really, really messed everything up, was Lysa. I think that, for readers, we are introduced to Lysa and we all immediately think, “Oh, this person is definitely not mentally healthy enough to be making any important decisions,” and we judge Cat for not seeing what appears to be obvious to us. But, the thing is, the version of Lysa that we meet is not the version of Lysa that Cat grew up with. There was no way for Cat to know just how much her sister changed. There are some valid reasons to criticize Cat as a character, but her choice to arrest Tyrion shouldn’t really be one of them. How on earth was Cat supposed to realistically predict that Lysa would make every single worst decision that she possibly could? As you said, I think that this situation would have played out very differently, if Lysa managed to make even just one or two better decisions.

yeah no, i don't like Catelyn, but this is up there as one of the best moves any Stark makes in the entire series. So many people treat it like she was staking out the inn waiting to catch Tyrion and had days of planning in her haed or something. when really it's just "WAIT WHAT THE HELL IS THIS."

Thank you. The amount of vitriol this fandom has for Catelyn is completly insane. I find her one of the most interesting characters both in the books and show (where she was portrayed brilliantly by the actress) and often come back to reread her chapters because I find them masterfully written. GRRM fleshed her character so much and definitely wanted Catelyn to be seen as something more, but unfortunately, people are stupid and ignorant.

In my opinion, we are conditioned to think that moves that end up being successful are smart and those which end up falling are stupid. Which obviously isn't the case. Nobody can predict the future, and nobody is stupid because they cannot do that. There are some things that we can try to predict, but life is incredibly random and many seemingly smart moves are very stupid, because of circumstances nobody can know or predict. I believe it has a lot to do with the meritocracy myth - people win because they are more intelligent, when in reality they aren't exceptionally smart, but exceptionally lucky.

Often times what marks a character as "tragic" is the fact that they are forced to make their decisions without information that the audience has, the audience can see where the story could have had a positive outcome and just how small the margin of error was. Catelyn does have to deal with this type of situation a lot, and you are right that hindsight makes her choices look worse than what they were. Part of the appeal of GoT is that we can see the "happy" ending just out of reach if our characters would just make the other choices. Baelish is basically Catelyn's Iago in that the only people who really trust him are the people who definitely shouldn't.

“Even Tyrion Lannister, widely acknowledged as the smartest character in the books…” Can we talk about how Tyrion isn’t anywhere near the smartest character in the books? He’s smart, smarter than most of his family. But his intelligence is widely overhyped

The only politically unintelligent thing Catelyn does in all of AGOT is to say “why would Petyr lie to me?” She is entirely correct that the Lannister/Stark political situation is destined for conflict and always acts accordingly; the “mistakes” that she makes are all a result of her not knowing that Petyr Baelish secretly hates and has plotted the destruction of House Tully.

Catelyn was definatly one of the more politicly savy Starks at the beginning of the show, a lot of people like to dislike her because of her treatment of Jon but don't realize that Catelyn like nearly everyone else in the show will always put her direct family first and Ned recognizing Jon Snow as his son and treating him like his legitimate ones might pose a threat to Robb's inheritance or at least that's how Catelyn sees it. Catelyn is probably the human personification of the Tully words Family, Duty, Honour since she always put her family first and does her duty as best as she can even if it goes against what is sometimes morally right. She might not have treated have treated Jon properly but she didn't really do anything the harm him and compared to Cercie's treatment of Robert's bastards its unfair to hate Catelyn for her behavior when she could've treated him much worse Her arresting Tyrion while it might not have been morally correct since he didn't have anything to do with what happened to Bran, it was still a good move for the Starks as tyrion while still being a dwarf and hated by the memebers of his family was still a Lannister and would've still been a good hostage, this was simply a good political move meant to give an advantage to the Starks over the Lannister. A lot of peopl seem to forget that Catelyn like Ned and Robb were all deceived into thinking that Tyrion sent the assassin to kill Bran by Littlefinger and even then arresting Tyrion was still as smart move

Unfortunately, Catelyn is one of many female characters in fiction at large who has her mistakes amplified and ridiculed through a mix of dramatic irony and internal fandom misogyny. People say they don't want perfect, flawless women in their stories, but then absolutely lose their shit when a woman does something wrong in the narrative, whether that mistake is deliberate or not. Meanwhile, a lot of the male characters usually get a lot of situational leniency for their mistakes unless it's something phenomenally and obviously stupid. And while this is an issue with fandoms at large, think about which women in the ASOIAF series tend to get more praise and leniency for their potential wrongdoings (Arya, Brienne, Rhaenyra, etc.) vs those that everyone wants to demonize for any potential wrong things they do regardless of the circumstances (Sansa, Catelyn, Alicent, etc.). While I know some people will have their own personal reasons for certain opinions they have, the pattern exists and shouldn't be disregarded.

first, THANK you. Cat is one of my favorite characters, she unfortunately suffered a lot of the same fate as ned. Where relatively well thought out decisions were undermined by unforeseen consequences. One thing off of the bat, I am not sure Tyrion meant to confront her. I just reread AGOT last week and Tyrion seemed suprised more than anything at the confrontation. After all he was friends with Jon, and the very last time we saw Tyrion he was helping Bran with the saddle and making Robb feel bad for judging him too quickly.

The only real mistake you can blame Catelyn for was hanging Freys instead of flaying them

Catelyn Tully's political coup at the inn at the crossroads is literally the reason I think she is the most political savvy of the entire Stark household. It was brilliant move. It's far more politically savvy than anything we see Ned do. Don't get me wrong, Ned had to have done well as Lord Paramount of the North based upon how much loyalty he has cultivated, but the North is fundamentally different from below the Neck due to many factors such as religion and culture and even flat out geography, and Catelyn is much more familiar with southern political machinations.

Catelyn is a more competent and bold player than Ned. That's true. And it is also true that it wasn't dumb to arrest Tyrion. Cat couldn't know that Jaime Lannister would totally overreact and go and attack Ned. And she couldn't know that Robert would just ignore the attack on Ned and every other attack on the starks

I think too many people look at books, tv shows and films with a sort of hindsight. One needs to realize that these characters don't have the birds eye view we do nor do they know how the story or novel installation ends. For all we know, we'd make even "dumber" decisions in those same situations with only the information they were working with.

I don't like Catelyn (as in, I could never be around her if she was real, personality-wise). But she is undeniably an intelligent, well written, and interesting character. When I want to only re-read certain part of the books, I often choose her chapters. And that move was smart. She had other options (mainly, to play it off like "i just wanted to go visit my father/sister without Ned/someone else fidning out) but Tyrion would read through all of it (especially since she would be too upset at him to play nice convincingly). Ned (and to a lesser extent due to his age, Robb) made way worse choices that led to the situation the Starks ended up in - a ton of people just exuse it as being made for honor's sake.

Correct me if i am wrong. But does not catelyn herself question her decision to arrest Tyrion? 🤔 Looking forward to actually watch the video now 😂

The title surprised me , I am watching the video to see the end of it .

This move was hands down BRILLIANT. Cat was trapped, she didn't have any time to think anything out properly, and still, she outsmarted Tyrion.

Well Counterarguement! When she freed Jaime, that was dumb, because she only did it to free her daughters, people who aren't loved at all by most of the Stark Camp and are only seen as "Muh Claim to Winterhell", with the only other person in the camp who cares and has the power to do anything is a literaly boy king who's under constant pressure to be the perfect king with very little chance to actually just be a teenager. Like clearly, she should have just read the Sansa and Arya chapters to know where they were smh my head 😤

I'm just rewatching Game of Thrones with my girlfriend and really can't understand why she and so many others keep hating on Catlyn. For me it's one of the best characters, especially in the novels. She is basically the most intelligent and strategising Stark even though she has least power out of all of them.

I think you're analyses are usually well thought out, and I've been enjoying hearing your perspective. But I think this one misses the mark in a few ways: 1) Catelyn herself encouraged Ned to go to King's Landing to investigate Jon Arryn's murder. She then goes to King's Landing herself to tell Ned about the attempted murder on Bran. Both would undoubtedly take some time to investigate; gather evidence; and build a case against the Lannisters on. Catelyn taking Tyrion prisoner places Ned, Sansa and Arya into a far more dangerous position in King's Landing, and gives Ned far less time to establish any real evidence or political leverage over the Lannisters. 2) While Littlefinger is behind Jon Arryn's death, and is lying to Ned and Catelyn for his political gain. He also makes the correct calculation to them both that they don't have any conclusive evidence - either linking the Lannister family to Jon Arryn's death; or to linking Tyrion to the Valerian steel dagger, since he can easily deny ever owning the weapon. Catelyn literally has no evidence against Tyrion (except for Littlefinger's word) before making the accusations against him. 3) Ned asks Catelyn to fortify Moat Cailin, and to start getting the North ready for a war, should a conflict between them and the Lannisters break out. Ned, the North and the Riverlands have far less time to prepare for a war, once Catelyn takes Tyrion prisoner. 4) You're assuming that if Catelyn lets Tyrion leave, it's already a forgone conclusion that he will immediately go to either King's Landing or Casterly Rock to accuse the Starks of engaging in a conspiracy against his family. This is a wild assumption to make because there is no reasonable basis for Tyrion to suspect a conspiracy by the Starks against his family. In both the books and the TV show, the only thing that Tyrion can reasonably conclude at this point, is that Robb Stark was rude to him at Winterfell for some reason (which is treatment that he is used to anyway, and then Robb Stark then tried to go back on), and that Catelyn is in the Riverlands for some reason. That might make him slightly suspicious, but Tyrion would not have anything close to conclusive proof, to be able to claim that the Stark's were engaging in a conspiracy against his family. Especially since Catelyn can easily tell him that she plans to visit her father in Riverrun (something she is actually considering doing in the book). 5) Catelyn is fully aware of Tywin Lannister's brutal nature, and so it's delusional to think that he wouldn't have responded brutally and aggressively to Tyrion's imprisonment at that point. The Riverlands are put on the back foot immediately, and are only briefly bailed out because of Robb's smart military strategy at the Whispering Wood. 6) Ned resigned as the Hand of the King and is about to leave King's Landing, before he is attacked by Jaime Lannister (specifically because she took Tyrion prisoner). Ned could have been back in the North and leading the charge, if not for Catelyn's actions. Catelyn taking Tyrion prisoner is a strategically inept move, even on just the information that Catelyn herself knew. And most importantly, Catelyn doesn't take Tyrion prisoner because of any strategic motive. She does it because of Littlefinger's word; and because she's convinced that her love for her children justifies any and all of her actions.

To be honest, the moment when Catelyn took Tyrion hostage was the first moment in the TV show where i really sat up and started paying attention. Everything until that point was kind of going by the numbers, with pretty standard pacing; I felt I could imagine when the conflict would boil over. The arrest at the crossroads was a completely unexpected development which A., Acted as messy complication to the plot rather than just increasing the tension, and B., Demonstrated that every major character in the show was active and could make big unexpected moves, even the 'sad mom wife lady' we had been getting so far. Goes to show you that the writing was viewing the characters complexly and that you never knew what was going to happen! Didn't know that people thought it was a dumb move though! If Tywin or Littlefinger had been behind it, the fans would think it was genius.

Ned gave her clear instructions on what he needed her to do as he prepared to leave Kings Landing. She did not do one of the things he asked. Taking Tyrion killed Ned.

6:25 No, that's the main mistake in your reasoning. It was bad Tyrion saw her but to the best of her knowledge the Lannisters had already been planning against them. Ned told her to go home and prepare for war. All Cat did was to start a war before Ned and the North had time to prepare. By the way, her own homeland was the first one to suffer because of it. Thousands of people killed, tortured, villages and fields destroyed. Later in Arya's chapters we see what it felt like from the common folk's perspective. And even before Catelyn brought it upon the Riverlands - Arya and Beric's people come to a burned village that had been destroyed by... Hoster, Arya's own granddad, when that lordling refused to change his allegiance from the King to Robert's rebellious army. And that becomes one of the revelations Arya can't bear, and she runs away etc. But the point is Catelyn didn't give a fig about common people in her homeland.

Your argument is based entirely on a false premise: that the Lannisters would have had any particular reaction to the fact that Catelyn (I still say it should be pronounced like Caitlin, and that her sister's name should be pronounced Lisa) was traveling incognito in the Riverlands. They have no particular reason to find that suspicious. After all, they don't know that Catelyn is on her way back from King's Landing. For all they know, she is just visiting her father and brother, and the only reason she is traveling incognito is that it is cheaper to do that than to take a large retinue, which she would otherwise have to do. Or they might think that Catelyn had another reason to be traveling incognito while her husband--whom she married for political reasons at a time they did not know each other--is away; after all, they don't know that the Starks have such a happy, devoted marriage. And none of the Lannisters have happy marriages, and two of them are involved in an adulterous (and incestuous) relationship, while Tyrion regularly patronizes prostitutes. In other words, you are making the same mistake that you are accusing Catelyn's critics of: assuming that the Lannisters know all sorts of things that they don't know, would have no way of knowing, and would be unlikely to assume. There is also the fact that Catelyn clearly has not bothered to keep in touch with any of her blood-kin enough to have any idea of the real situation in either Riverrun or the Eyrie. Once Catelyn makes the decision to seize Tyrion, the way she goes about it is indeed clever, but the decision itself was still a bad one.

love your work! fantastic video

I wish Catelyn would be more appreciated by the fans; she's a great character & it's a shame that people can't look past their hatred for her to see that.

another big brain video. luv em keep them coming muh lady

Her and cersei are constantly unfairly judged. Although I still see Cersei as purely villainous, there is alot of nuances, particularly her lack of agency throughout most of her life and the exploitation and assaults she suffers give solid reasons why. Cat’s only real fuck up in my eyes is letting Jaime free.

6:00 And then in her inner monologue she wondered if the banners would answer her father's call. Indeed, only a quarter of the men present at the inn rose to obey her, and in Tyrion's chapter we see how it amused him.

I never understood the Cat hate. Definitely think people put blinders on when analyzing her decisions and motives behind them. She makes mistakes just like every single individual in this series, and has her strong moments! That’s what makes the series so compelling, to see the pros and cons of every decision a character makes! Love the video!!

She didnt wanted to start a war yet she's the one who did

I wished for lady stoneheart to appear in the series

Best ASOIF KZfaqr.

I would say I'm back on my catelyn defense shit but honestly? I'm always on it!! great video as always

Catelyn, Arya, and Tywin were my favorites for the first few seasons. Minus her treatment of Jon, her decisions and advice are what made her my favorite. I also hated Ned for disregarding her counsel and that of many others resulting in his death. Rob sealed his fate by not heeding counsel as well.

Ummm...no it wasn't

EPIC OPINION THANK YOU!!!

I definitely do not hate Catelyn, I think that she is suppose to be what she is. A mother, a mother who is desperate wanting to help their children but ends up making things worst, as most mothers do (like releasing Jamie, not noticing Robb's true feelings of overleoad, and desperation as most mothers do as wel, etc,etc... ).❤ She does have intelligence though, for many reasons as you pointed out in this video. The Eyerie thing one was specially smart since she is making use of house Tully's greatest power which is allies, and involving lisa already places 3 of the 7 kingdoms against one. But one point I really like to diverge from your video, is the one where you say that she had no other choice other than kidnapping Tyrion. I actualy think that is the worst choice presented, as if even if Tyrion told Tywin that he suspected that the Starks where conspiring something, that still is a whole gap from a reason to declare war on House Stark. Even for someone as ruthless as Tywin. Because first things first, invading the North is incredibly difficult, as difficult as Dorne or even more so (the only ones who would have a chance starting a war and invading some parts of it, would be the Iron Born and they would be still helpless outside of the coast). Second even if they did declare war on the Starks, would they go to war against the riverlands and possibly the Eyerie for the same reason? Lastly, is still no reason enough for you to justify a war for the rest of the Kingdom, since the king who happens to be the best friends of the head of House Stark, could easily see this as not a matter of honor but a matter of a Kingdom trying to disrupt peace, and he could easily rally the other kingdoms to keep the peace the same way he did against the Iron Islands. I do see that Catelyn might have been paranoid to the Lannisters making another move outside of going into war, like sending more assassin's. But Arresting Tyrion locks the possibility of a war 100%, and I still think that locking herself in Winterfell is still safer than dragging her son and other hundreads of thousands of people into a open war in the field. However you are supposed to see this as Cately. If you were a Mother and Feudal Lady, and you believe that someone hurt and is trying to hurt your family. And that someone is front of you unprotected and throwing jokes. Then Catelyn's actions make a lot of sense. In summary, I think that she can be liked by her intelligence, and judged for many of her decisions end up being self sabotage. But at the eyes of a desperate mother who is seeing her family dying left and right, the deterioration of her decision making sounds pretty reasonable, and is part of what makes her character so endearing.

This is the most blatant Post Hoc I've ever come across

It was a good plan made up on the spot, I agree. Cat is well known for her good ideas and wise council. The only mistake I feel is that she underestimated the backlash from House Lannister and the kind of extent that Tywin would go to even under the King's peace as the King's father in law.

Honestly, I think people let the fact that Catelyn set Jaime free (which *was* a bad move and arguably doomed the Starks, or at least massively contributed to their downfall) color their entire opinion of her. Sure, that was a downright *terrible* move, but it was only so fatal because of multiple other bad moves that put them in that spot.

I think part of what makes Catelyn tragic is that she's clearly the most politically savvy Stark or Tully. (Hoster might have been in his prime and book Sansa is building towards becoming a player) She lacks the naivety of honour before all that a lot of Starks have. But she's mostly a decent person who earned the respect of Northern lords. Cat puts family above all. Almost all her actions make sense as seemingly smart moves with the information on hand. She is the one most wary of the Frays and eager to get the bread and salt protection asap before the Red Wedding. She sees how Robb's marriage is foolish and how keeping Theon at hand was wiser. The one action that you could say was politically foolish was freeing Jamie on a desparte hope without any firm guarantee of getting Sansa and Arya back. But that is understandable in the context of thinking of her grief and Bran and Rickon's "deaths" and a human need to save her daughters. The Karstark desire for revenge to kill prisoners to avenge battle kills was risky for losing their most valuable prisoner and her daughters being killed in response. The tragedy of Catelyn Stark is despite her smarts, several of her choices end up backfiring due toinformation she didn't have at the time. And other times her good ideas don't get followed because she doesn't have the political power relative to the ones making bad calls.

As a reader it is very easy to be results oriented in regards to events which happen in the book. "X happened as a result of Y so X was a bad decision" without taking into account the perspective and context of the decision.

You rocked this video I never thought along those lines. The reason why hate Catelyn is because of her hatred of Jon Snow but if I was Catelyn I wouldn't like him either. He might try to take winterfell from her children.

I’m usually with your defense of Catelyn but this one… her decision was moronic. And it got her husband killed.

If she was half as smart as you claim she would've advised Ned to tell King Rob to make Stannis his Hand instead. I doubt Robert would be willing to ever do that, but the idea was never even brought up.

Contrarion

I respectfully disagree. People are too hard on her but Cat’s decisions are consistently more stupid than anything Edmure ever does and nobody ever lets that poor guy forget anything. I understand she didn’t have all the facts but she should have known she didn’t have all the facts. A person’s intent doesn’t make a plan good when that plan fails. Everything would have been better if she hadn’t captured him. Kidnapping a noble lord with no proof while your husband is essentially the hostage of his family is not a *brilliant* move by any stretch of the imagination. They’d have to have a trial eventually, Tyrion obviously would have claimed trial by combat and she didn’t have any proof. She boxed herself into a situation where she *had* to kill him or release him at that point. Both of which would be terrible decisions but now she has to choose one and that is all her fault. She told everyone in that bar what was up but to the realm as a whole, she made the Starks the instigators. Now the Lannisters are the wronged party. Especially since she went to the super isolated Vale. I understand it was a bad situation and I don’t think she’s an idiot but it was a really, really, profoundly bad idea to kidnap Tyrion. Perhaps her dumbest moment was letting Tyrion leave The Vale without protection. If he gets eaten by a shadow cat or murdered, the narrative is now that you murdered the Queen’s brother and the Starks are the murderers. Not the Lannisters.

The main reason people take issue with her is cause she wished for the death of Jon as an innocent infant, purely because she was jealous of the woman Ned supposedly had him with. Then when he almost dies from sickness, she begged the gods for help in saving his life in exchange for promising to love him as her own and treat him no different. He got better and yet she still treated him like a piece of garbage, so much so that he went to the wall in part due to her treatment of him and the feelings he developed from her treatment made him feel like he wasn't better for anything else. Ultimately its neds fault for not telling cat the truth about jon like I think he should have, cause she wouldnt have said anything i dont think since she would have been so happy Ned didn't cheat. If anybody asked why she didn't hate the child anymore, she could tell them of her promise to the gods. Anyways, thats the main reason i didn't care for Cat and i think alot of others felt the same and that realization so early in Cats story kinda gave people a bias against her future decisions. I personally don't cause i know in this world not everything is always black and white and people can change. I absolutely hated Jamie in the begining, then i end up liking him and wanting him to do well(as long as he makes the right choices unlike in the game of thrones show.

Great analysis as always, Hill! Although Catelyn is not my favorite (Bran is!) I can't blame her for this decision or anything else that she does or says. I just think there are many Doyist interventions especially in the first book, and some of them ignore historical reality. In this case my objection would be her idea (: Martin's) to have Tyrion judged in the court of another feudal state. If feudalism is the political setting, you can't take the presumptive heir of a feudal principality (as Jamie would not ever be that heir because of his vows) to be judged anywhere else, except the capital by the king. The result is that Tyrion walked free and Robert remained unaware about what was going on around him. So, although her idea was smart, perhaps it would be better if Cat had simply asked (from the Riverlands' lords or even Lysa) aid to transfer Tyrion to WF (i.e. via the sea) and truly wait for the "king's justice" as she said. And although Martin tried to recreate such a serious case remaining faithful to the west medieval context, he ultimately created characters that had absolutely no trust in the system, which they f^ck over and over (feudalism is more than a millenium old and didn't survive this long because it was that bad). For me, it remains to be seen, if the last book ever comes out, whether there is a point to this distortion, meaning whether he's going somewhere with it as part of the ending (perhaps relating to significant poltiical reforms) or whether it's just authorial licence.

Lol the best choice she could’ve made would’ve been to obey Ned’s orders and go back to Winterfell so that she may complete his commands and begin preparing the North for war. Her brilliant decision making led to the beaheading of her husband, the hostage situation with her eldest daughter, & the obviously very safe journey that Arya had to make with Yoren. Not to mention the continent spanning war 😂 Is this video a satire??

Still amazed people don’t like her. I read the first book before interacting too much with the fandom and she was one of my favorite characters by far.

Wait... people thought Catelyn was dumb? I swear people who watched the show paid no actual attention unless there were dragons on screen. Catelyn is my go-to example of a strong, female character that is not a sword wielding badass. She's the one who is always thinking of the political optics and will wield that knowledge for the sake of her family.

Mmm? I have to question the brilliance as it precipitates the fight between Jaime and Ned that gets Jhory killed and leaves Ned badly injured that causes Robert baratheon to feel he has to go hunting.

I like your takes and I constantly agree with your opinions and analyzes, but something I don't understand, probably because I can't remember clearly since I read Game of Thrones only once and that was in 2012. Why it was such a problem to be discovered? I remember that she was coming back from KL, but why being seen on the road would make the Lannisters retaliate against the Starks?

There is attribution of the potential benefits of her decisions to genius, but certain aspects of her decision-making are clearly flawed. Prime example after taking Tyrion was, "what was she to do with him"?. She didn't want the trial under those circumstances, didn't want to let him go and Lysa didn't want the Vale in the middle, but there is no point from her POV about even mentioning securing Tyrion in a hospitable cell and interrogating him. As things stood is was either leave him in the Sky Cell and he possibly dies, or let him grow discontent enough to think of something, which he does. Which she knows is likely given her uncle calling attention to Tyrion's condition upon their reaching the Bloody Gate. He's more useful as a live hostage, and if he dies prior to any confession, she's made the entire situation profoundly worse. Just the thing I suggest likely would've allowed to keep custody of Tyrion until hearing about Robb, they could have left and the lords of the North could've used that leverage. She's not stupid, nor is she a genius. Any can make a decision that could have myriad favourable implications, but that doesn't suffice as basis for genius unless that was demonstrable the intent. She doesn't seem to make subsequent decisions that address the situation as it evolves, right under her nose.

Officially, there were no issues between the Starks and the Lannisters. Ned was starting to investigate the "the seed is strong" allegation of illegitimacy. Cat decided that Tyrion had conspired to kill Bran with almost no evidence & she, herself, decides to arrest the Imp there & then.

"...The very fact that she had been spotted by Tyrion already guaranteed that the Lannisters would almost certainly act out against Ned..." Um, no. Tyrion has just spotted Catelyn traveling. There's no reason to believe that the Lannisters would do anything about this information *even if Tyrion bothered to tell them*. By abducting Tyrion so publicly she ENSURED that they would react violently. In this Lannister conspiracy Catelyn believes in they've apparently been trying to be subtle so far. If they had been behind everything Catelyn thinks they were, their reaction to the news that Catelyn Tully was seen traveling incognito was as likely to be growing more cautious and putting their plans on hold as accelerating things. In short, by abducting Tyrion Catelyn created the very situation she thought might happen if she let him go. IOW, she turned a 50% probability into a 100% probability. Also, you've said she had no time to think, but was that really true? Westeros didn't have cell phones, so there was no way that Tyrion could whip one out and text Catelyn's location to his father in a flash. There wasn't a ravenry at this little inn. She could have taken time to eat her meal while thinking through her options. Hell, she could have dined with him and casually asked about the tourney where Tyrion supposedly "won" the knife from Petyr to see how he reacted. At which point he'd casually tell her about losing X amount of money from betting on Jaime, leading Catelyn to question Petyr's account... and then decide against taking any action against Tyrion pending more information. Plus, GRRM himself has admitted that in Book 1 he had Catelyn carrying the Idiot Ball to advance the plot. Not hatin', just sayin'.

The negative reactions to her character definitely has some gendered issues. If Ned had made the same decisions it would have been viewed differently. But though I think some of her decisions turned out unsuccessful later, like many other characters I don't think you can judge decisions at the time/under the circumstances later with hindsight and call them "dumb." I feel like this is true of many characters. We judge them based on what we see happen later but that's not a good way to judge the decisions of these characters. Love her or hate her, Catelyn was always an astute character. She always seemed to me as a proof point that in a world where women are seen as incapable (Cersei in the books being the exemplar) that it has less to do with their gender or more to do with their individual skills/upbringing/environment, the same as the men.

I balme her for what she does like treating jon like garbage

I’m not sure that arresting Tyrion was a very good idea, but the way she went about doing it was definitely strategically flawless.

It’s foolish because she made a vast move based off rumours from little finger the most untrustworthy guy in Westeros . And you put Ned in a extremely awkward and disadvantagous position in king landings

No it wasn’t lmao Kidnapping the son of the richest and one of the most brutal men in the country will never be a smart move. I don’t dislike her character. I acknowledge she was acting without all the facts. But she kidnaps the son of a man who rivals her own husbands regency. It could only start war. She knows of Tywin’s dark deeds. Reading her continually trying to justify her actions to herself up until he marched out of the vale with bronn is so frustrating because she’s actively deluding herself into thinking things will work out fine. And while she makes little self inquiries into if she believes him, It isn’t until she realizes her sister has lost her damn mind that she really starts to question whether she made the right call. Which she didn’t. She should’ve sent a loyal bannerman to kings landing in her stead. She should’ve left Tyrion to pass. And she shouldn’t have released Jaime. She makes critical errors and i don’t think she should be absolved of them simply because some incels online hate women that make decisions. She made some poor ones and just because she isn’t a green dreamer doesn’t mean she couldn’t have predicted the outcomes of her actions. There are two possibilities that could occur after kidnapping Tyrion. He dies, whether it be mountain clansmen or the moon door. Or he lives and tells everyone how lady Paramount Catelyn Stark of Winterfell, kidnapped him on false pretenses and either one would’ve started a war. Tywin would’ve burned the riverlands either way. Taking him hostage was a critical mistake. And one that she should’ve been able to see the outcome of. To be fair however, THE WAY she did it was in fact incredibly intelligent and thought out the subterfuge of the route, the calling of her fathers bannermen. She just didn’t really consider what would come after.

I love your videos, queen. I'm always impressed by your insights and sometimes shocked by how much unconcious dislike I had towards some women in Westeros due to mainstream opinion. And that being one myself. I'm really thankful for your vids and wish you much success in the future :)

What happens with Tyrion is that being hated since he was born by his father (a contempt even greater than Viserys feels for Aegon II) he does not serve as a hostage because Twyn was willingly calling his flag bearers to the war and if Tyrion was executed could make him a martyr for the Lannister house. In the plan of "the poor little dwarf being torn to pieces by the cruel Stark wolves" for this despite having his son kidnapped, the old lion called his standard bearers to defend the honor of the house and that his son stop being the dwarf of the family and become the useful martyr of the family. He thought that a martyr was better than a dwarf and that is why he puts him in the vanguard during the battle of the Green Fork.

we don't talk about how dumb Ned's decision to favor Stannis was.

I am currently rereading the books after i last red them many years ago and I recently came to the same conclusion. I liked to hate on all the bad decisions she supposedly made, while she in fact was actually a smart player, I'd say smarter then Ned was.

Whats your opinion on the theory that Jon snow is actually ned starks and ashara dayne son instead of being a Targaryen?

Cat certainly gets far more hate than she deserves, but this decision to arrest Tryion is the wrong call, even without the benefit of hindsight. She had no proof of Tyrion’s “guilt” and kidnapped Tywin Lannister‘s son. Tywin has brought down more than one house for far less. It’s a panicked and reckless decision that ultimately leads to the end of House Stark as we know it.

What gets me is if Ned had been more bold like Cat in moving against the Lannisters in KL, he would have done much better for himself. And if Cat had been more conciliatory and tried to talk/deal with Tyrian like Ned had done with Cerci, she might have done better for herself. They both made the decision the other should have made.😢

One thing I very much appreciate about your work is how you force us to rethink.

I agree with you mostly but you say it’s unfair to judge her on what is ultimately a bad decision in the grand scheme. But give her credit on what she can’t for see that’s contradictory. Not to mention she should of listened to bed and went back to the north. He had a plan and she fucked it up

Actually, when I watched for the first time, I was more thinking of ho dumb it was for Tirion to speak to her and start making jokes when she was obviously hiding and b ing subtle. He could pretend no t seeing her and then do with that information whatever he wants to. She wasn’t going to take him at the first place, she as trying to keep the low profile and remain unnoticed.

I agree, she made a good choice. One of the best scenes in both the books and the TV series

She still made the worst decision by releasing Jaime

hmmm if only Ned had followed Cat's lead, allied with Renly and taken Cersei and her kids hostage. Would that have stopped the war? Or at least made it super one-sided, with the westerlands against mostly everyone else? Perhaps it would've been hard to reconcile Renly and Stannis, or LF and Varys could've sabotaged everything... looking at the later story, with the backstabby selfishness of characters like Cersei, the Tyrells, Euron, etc., it really makes you think "if only we have someone a little more selfless." Well, we had that with Ned Stark, and his honorable rule was the best, for effective way to put the worst people in Westeros in charge. If he'd acted a little more like Catelyn, it would've gone better for him, and almost everyone else?

Catelyn's in that category of book characters for me that I'm like "you are a very interesting and lovely character to read but an actual person with your same traits and flaws I'd want to punch" but fiction is fiction so I'll continue to like and appreciate her as a character. That being said, while i agree that the way she went about it is incredibly astute, I personally still have to come down on the side of arresting/kidnapping one of your peers on hearsay was not a good move because it instantly starts a war. That she and any potential allies weren't actually prepared for at the time of her making this decision. Of course from her point of view and with the information she has this is an unexpected opportunity to arrest the person responsible for harming her son. But if I'm not mistaken westerosi lords don't have the power to arrest and detain other lords right? So even if Tyrion had committed the crime she believes he did, didn't she also commit a crime by kidnapping him? Additionally her evidence for believing that Tyrion did it is circumstantial. But a whole lot of witnesses saw her kidnap someone. So now, if the lannisters are gunning for the Starks, Catelyn's taking Tyrion prisoner gives them every reason to start a war because they can say it's an unlawful arrest. And the evidence for that is much more visible then any evidence the Starks can produce for what they say the Lannisters did/are doing. So Catelyn goes to the Eyrie and she is safe there for the reasons you say. But the Riverlands are very much vulnerable and the whole hostage thing means Tywin has a reason to gun for them. And of Catelyn's working off the assumption that the lannisters are ready for war anyway then they can go after the Riverlands immediately. Meanwhile there's a delay between what she did and Hoster and anyone in the North realizing "oh shit we need to get ready" meanwhile she believes Tywin is all ready prepared. So why start a war your enemy is prepared for when you and your allies aren't yet? Not fully anyway. And I'm not really fully convinced Tyrion just seeing Catelyn in the riverlands is more dangerous than her actually arresting him. Because it's not a justification for open hostilities. If the lannisters made any moves against the starks before that point then even the kingdoms who have no reason to personally care about the starks would probably be willing to fight the lannisters for what looks like unprovoked aggression. But arresting Tyrion on what could be called hearsay is gonna give more people pause in coming down on the side of the Starks. Idk hope this is coherent but in short while I think the way she went about it was pretty smart I still think doing it at all was the wrong move. Not dumb, dumb is Ned confronting Cersei when he's isolated in king's landing while she's the queen of the city lol. But still the wrong move to me.

Catelyns plan only went wrong because of lysa

The Eryie as locale was brilliant. She put a Lannister on ice. That's smart. That's leverage. Her instincts were valid. Ned was a dangerous fool to go charging to Cersei with no plan in place and no prior allegiance to call on for support. Cat should've gone to KL in her husband's stead, and none of the events would have unfolded in the same catastrophic way. If anyone was stupid, it was Ned. If her son Robb would've kept faith with her careful negotiation with the Frey's, which I'm not sure anyone else would have been able to secure BTW, the Red Wedding and the taking of RiverRun likely wouldn't have taken place either.

What’s next freeing Jaimie was a great move too 😂

The only dumb thing Catelyn did was beleving Little Finger about Tyrion in the first place. (even in universe, she should have been far more suspicious about Littlefinger saying the Dagger was Tyrion's) It's understandble sure. But still very dumb. Then again a lot of people trust Petyr, so her dumbest choice is something a lot of people did.

Why would Tyrion noticing Catelyn endanger her or Ned?

I love her she’s great

Did you dislocate your arm reaching this hard? 😂

Catelyn plan was not stupid , it's just backfired.

You know your reasons are poor when you have to repeat "her plan was smart" literally every minute of your video.

I don't like Catelyn but Arrest of Tyrion was smart move at that time could she made smarter move yes it's hard see anyone else something different in her shoes.

Great video, your points actually made a lot of sense and really made me rethink my perception of the entire encounter. I still don’t really particularly like her because of her failure to act on any of the things that Ned told her needed to be done for the north to be ready for conflict. I still blame her lack of action for some of the things that happened to both Ned and Robb but this was a smart move.

Good. Now do Skylar White? 😏😕

There is one probelm with the lie about Tyrion owning the dagger. Namely that littlefinger claims Tyrion won it in a bet where Tyrion putb his money against Jaime's chances of victory in a joust is odd. Now i'm not saying that she should have picked up on the lie but it is an odd claim.

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Yeah, I always thought that Cat's decision was smarter than people give credit for. The reality is that the war started in the moment that Tyrion recongnized Catelyn, not when she caught him. If Tyrion just went away, word of the wife of the Hand of The King so far from where she was would just ensure that Cersei acts faster and probably Eddard would die sooner, maybe even in some way that endangers Arya and Sansa more. Tyrion being captured at least ensured a little more time since anything that the Lannisters did to a Stark or Tuly would end up in Tyrion's head on a spike. As a side note, about the other "dumb" decision that Cat did regarding one of the Lannister brothers, yes, Catelyn freeing Jaime wasn't smart, but the reality is that King Robb was already doomed by the time this happened. The Freys would try something anyway, the only difference would be how much time they would spend waiting to jump the Starks. And we have to remember how easily Lord Karstark killed Jaime's cousins, so he probably would manage to kill Jaime and if that happened, this would garantee that Tywin would be even more brutal, Brianne probably would be killed in the Red Wedding and the domino effect would end up screwing the Tulys and the Blackwoods without Jaime as well as killing Tyrion, Gendry and Pod, we would end up with a possibly more deranged Jaimeless Cersei, Aegon and Dany would manage to become allies and Jon Con wouldn't have grey scale. Cat's decision probably sped up her and Robb's demise, but didn't garantee and saved a lot of people.

Ned had asked to fortify Moat Caelen. She should've addressed that as well

I appreciate your take on Cat. I never viewed her as stupid at all. There are some male members of her family that made way worse decisions and they get dragged, but not as much!

why would tyrion spotting cat in a inn in the riverlands put Ned in danger ? It raises questions like what is she doing there and not in winterfell she herself doesn't pose as an immediate threat and Ned hasnt made some of his worst choices at court yet. I don't think her arrest of Tyrion was stupid, but when she later is getting second thoughts about it and doesn't question the good points Tyrion bring up about this whole thing it's just the most frustrating thing to read.

My dislike of her isn’t really even dislike. She’s just not on my team. lol

It wasnt smart it was impulsive catlyen was smarter than that but it caused an incredible amount of damage to her on homeland which even without hindsight she shouldve seen coming also just because she was smart in the way she arrested him doesnt mean it was a smart move