Catholics vs. Protestants on John 6 and Transubstantiation

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Brian Holdsworth

Brian Holdsworth

11 ай бұрын

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While I was still exploring the Catholic Church, I was introduced to the accusation that Catholics are cannibals because of their belief about the bread and wine transforming into the literal body and blood of Jesus in Holy Communion. I actually had someone I worked with, who was Protestant, say this exact thing.
And for the protestants that make this accusation, they come by it honestly. Martin Luther used this kind of rhetoric in “The Babylonian Captivity of the Church” and in John Foxe’s Book of Martyrs, he describes the Catholic mass as “detestable cannibalism”.
It draws an interesting parallel with the historical events of the very earliest Christians who were persecuted by pagan Romans under this exact same allegation.
A Roman rhetorician named Minucius Felix made this claim to anyone who would listen prompting responses and explanations about what Christians actually believed and performed in their eucharistic celebrations by Hippolytus and St. Justin Martyr: namely that a prayer of blessing is prayed over the gifts of bread and wine which become the body and blood of Jesus.
Which reveals two things to me: that Protestants who made and make this accusation have more in common with the Roman pagans who were bent on murdering Christians than they do with the early Christians, and secondly, that the early Christians practiced something that was just as easily confused with cannibalism as the Catholic mass.
Music written and generously provided by Paul Jernberg. Find out more about his work as a composer here: pauljernberg.com
Podcast Version: brianholdsworth.libsyn.com/

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@BrianHoldsworth
@BrianHoldsworth 11 ай бұрын
Correction: Felix was a Christian writer who wrote a dialogue in which those accusations were made. Lucius Apuleius Madaurensis was one of many writers and rhetoricians who made this accusation against Christians.
@Call_Upon_YAH
@Call_Upon_YAH 11 ай бұрын
Blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it: Through the Holy Spirit, God has put it on me to preach to those lost in the devil's deceit! Hear me when I say, ye that are Catholic have been deceived and know not God. Ye worship Mary, praying to her; when God tells his to worship none other than him. It is idolatry. Catholicism has its own Bible and teachings, which are blasphemous to the word of God: the Holy Bible. As ye follow the teachings of man and not God; ye hear the pope, but not Jesus, yet ye claim to be his disciples! These are but a few things I named ye dwell within; there are many more. I tell you now to repent of your sins, accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, and you'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit upon asking the Father! There are *NO* sub-divisions of Christianity. You're either a disciple of Christ or not. A Christian is someone who follows God's word, not a religion. Who obey the Father and follow his will; not man's nor their own heart's. Unless you keep Jesus' commandments, think not the Holy Spirit will dwell within you! They who heed this message and did what was stated with an open heart to God... Read the Holy Bible (KJV) daily and every time before you read, pray to the Father and ask: "Lord I ask that you give me understanding of your word, that I interpret it the way you want me to, and none of my own. I ask you in Jesus' name, amen." Revelation 22:8-9 KJV 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. Acts 2:38 KJV 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Luke 11:13 KJV 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? John 14:21-24 KJV 21 *He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.* 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, *If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.* 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and *the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.* 3 John 1:11 KJV 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. *He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.* 1 John 3:6-10 KJV 6 *Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.* 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: *he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.* 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 *Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.* 10 *In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,* neither he that loveth not his brother.
@isaaccarney9232
@isaaccarney9232 9 ай бұрын
Could you please do a video on Extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist?
@sproutfire8878
@sproutfire8878 11 ай бұрын
Waiting for Gavin Ortlund to reply. I really hope he watches this video with an open heart. Great channel, Brian! Ave Maria!
@HumanDignity10
@HumanDignity10 11 ай бұрын
"Jesus and the Jewish Roots of the Eucharist " by Brant Pitre is a great book on this topic. Also, I find a lot of what Protestants call Catholic "rituals" to be very helpful for my spiritual growth and to feel closer to the Father, Son, and Holy spirit. It would be interesting to see a video on what Protestants think of the Sacrament of Reconciliation. Our Catholic pastor told us he once had a conversation with a Protestant pastor who thought the priests were putting us in physical confinement. He was surprised to hear that penance typically involves prayer and that's it. I personally find the whole process of an examination of conscience and going to confession to be very healing.
@sproutfire8878
@sproutfire8878 11 ай бұрын
Dr Pitre is a huge blessing to the church. Yeah, many protestants are misguided by our faith. You correct them and they still don't get it. Pray for their hearts and minds to soften
@BalthasarCarduelis
@BalthasarCarduelis 11 ай бұрын
Why do you put rituals in quotations? If one knows what a sacramental is, in relation to a sacrament, then one should be able to parse out what a ritual is, in relation to a rite, without the scare quotes, no? Is this a term of art to the Protestants with a significance beyond the obvious one conjugated?
@laurakeister5965
@laurakeister5965 11 ай бұрын
This book helped me convert to the Catholic faith
@thatwifeofhis7815
@thatwifeofhis7815 11 ай бұрын
As a Catholic mom Ive resolved to train myself for the good fight to guard the souls of my loved ones, I exercise the Rosary and the Eucharist provides fortification I need. Thank you Jesus. 🙏
@rogermills2467
@rogermills2467 11 ай бұрын
Souls do t exist and neither does your god. Thankfully. Yahweh is a monster.
@Ezekiel336-16
@Ezekiel336-16 11 ай бұрын
By definition, canabalism is eating the dead; and we don't eat dead flesh or drink dead blood, we eat and drink His glorified and resurrected flesh and blood. That is no different than a baby breastfeeding from his or her living mother. The mother sustains the baby with her own life, and so does the Father through the Son! In Christ, Andrew
@canadadelendaest8687
@canadadelendaest8687 11 ай бұрын
In the beginning...God SPOKE and SAID 'Let there be light!'...God SPOKE and SAID "Let the earth be separated from the waters!"...God creates with the Word, when He speaks He creates: "This IS my body" "This IS my blood" When He spoke he created and transformed, WITH HIS WORD!
@EricAlHarb
@EricAlHarb 11 ай бұрын
As an Orthodox I approve this message!
@rosedcosta5745
@rosedcosta5745 11 ай бұрын
Thanks for your approval 🙄
@rubemartur8239
@rubemartur8239 11 ай бұрын
You do believe Jesus is as Body and Blood in the Holy Eucharisty as catholic do, right? Catholic here.
@EricAlHarb
@EricAlHarb 11 ай бұрын
@@rubemartur8239 yes
@williamanderson7757
@williamanderson7757 11 ай бұрын
​@@rubemartur8239we Catholics also believe that since they still follow apostolic succession that the Orthodox sacraments (including communion) are valid
@EricAlHarb
@EricAlHarb 11 ай бұрын
@@rubemartur8239 pride separates us, not doctrine.
@beyond0077
@beyond0077 11 ай бұрын
I like to say, why did thousands of disciples leave him if he was just speaking symbolically? He even turned to the 12 and asked them if they would leave too.
@tun2w
@tun2w 4 ай бұрын
Because eating/drinking the blood is a violation according the mosaic law
@jotink1
@jotink1 2 ай бұрын
Because he said he came down from heaven. It is Catholics who think they left him because from what the Jews misunderstood.
@aruhe6650
@aruhe6650 2 ай бұрын
​@@jotink1John 6:52 -Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
@jotink1
@jotink1 2 ай бұрын
@@aruhe6650 yes it was thoseJews who had followed Jesus after the feeding of the five thousand not his disciples. The disciples found it difficult and offensive later on in v60 and Jesus knew their thoughts gave a reply in v62. His reply has nothing to do in answering them if the disciples concern was eating him but it does if he was the bread that came down from heaven. It was not until v66 we are told they left him which was after he also said what if you see the son of man ascend. The offence Jesus answered was him coming down from heaven by saying they would see him ascend not eating his flesh.
@christisking970
@christisking970 2 ай бұрын
and he doubled down on it
@BP26P
@BP26P 11 ай бұрын
I'm reminded of the Roman Catechism ("The Catechism of the Council of Trent"): "For since it is most revolting to human nature to eat human flesh or drink human blood, therefore God in His infinite wisdom has established the administration of the body and blood of Christ under the forms of bread and wine, which are the ordinary and agreeable food of man."
@4runner4summer
@4runner4summer 11 ай бұрын
Christ is King
@bobthebuildest6828
@bobthebuildest6828 11 ай бұрын
Christ is King
@4runner4summer
@4runner4summer 11 ай бұрын
@@bobthebuildest6828 so true brother
@andreassvensson895
@andreassvensson895 11 ай бұрын
Christ is king and the church is his kingdom!
@4runner4summer
@4runner4summer 11 ай бұрын
@@andreassvensson895 AMEN!!!
@DenisOhAichir
@DenisOhAichir 11 ай бұрын
And the Blessed Virgin Mary is Queen.
@e.g.726
@e.g.726 11 ай бұрын
Excellent video. As per usual. Thank you for all you do to evangelize us. ❤
@basiadobinska-fomicz1671
@basiadobinska-fomicz1671 11 ай бұрын
Great video! And, as a Pole, I' m happy to ackonwledge that You used in Your presentation painting "Nero's torches" by Polish XIXth century painter Henryk Siemiradzki👍
@Augnatius
@Augnatius 11 ай бұрын
Ngl that thumbnail got me wildin lmao
@josephtravers777
@josephtravers777 11 ай бұрын
Quite ironic that Sola Scriptura proves transubstantiation to be true by the very words of Christ. Those that do not believe are as the disciples that found it too hard to believe and abandoned Christ.
@jamess7576
@jamess7576 11 ай бұрын
Another thing to consider. When Jesus spoke in metaphors or parables and the people were struggling to understand, Jesus would continue teaching, expanding, and use different metaphors or parables to help them. In John, Jesus doubles down triples down on that He is the bread of life and the consumption aspect. 6:32, 6:35 ok that sounds fairly metaphorical. 6:51 ok maybe, 6:53-58 ehh I don't think so.
@backtracker4256
@backtracker4256 11 ай бұрын
Jesus often explained his parables to his disciples and not the crowds. Therefore, in 6:60-6:65 Jesus explained to his disciples (more than just the 12) and said in John 6:63 "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life." (ESV). I think it is possible that the metaphor for His flesh was the reality of death on the cross and then Resurrection! In John 6:51 "I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.” Here He states that the bread will be given and it will require Him to give His flesh, which points to the Crucifixion of Jesus. May God Bless us all in this, and not turn us sour to each other.
@zxcasdqwe12
@zxcasdqwe12 11 ай бұрын
What Our Lord said in John 6, He repeated same on Last Supper. It was no metaphor, or parable John 16:29: His disciples said, "Behold, now you speak plainly and tell no parable
@brianfarley926
@brianfarley926 11 ай бұрын
Great commentary as always!
@nancygagne5905
@nancygagne5905 11 ай бұрын
As usual, thank you, Brian, for another very insightful interpretation! You never disappoint! 😊🙏
@kevinmc62
@kevinmc62 11 ай бұрын
Great video Brian. I love your explanation. It gives me a stronger understanding.
@BradleyFear
@BradleyFear 9 ай бұрын
This is one of the clearest explanations of this tricky topic that I've ever heard. Thank you so much. I currently attend a Protestant church, but have been studying Catholicism for a few months now. It's videos like this which compel me most towards the Catholic church. Videos like this are an absolute blessing at this crossroads in my walk with Christ.
@jabelltulsa
@jabelltulsa 11 ай бұрын
Great video man!!
@ruthheredia5262
@ruthheredia5262 11 ай бұрын
Excellent exposition. Shared it already.
@reinedire7872
@reinedire7872 11 ай бұрын
This gave me a much better understanding of the sacrament. Thanks!
@michaelrome3527
@michaelrome3527 11 ай бұрын
Great approach Brian. Thanks you
@jturon9184
@jturon9184 10 ай бұрын
Thank you Mr Holdsworth.
@amyraab8326
@amyraab8326 11 ай бұрын
Very nicely said ❤ Thank you Brian
@alistairkentucky-david9344
@alistairkentucky-david9344 11 ай бұрын
1:04 Just to clarify, Minucius Felix was a Christian apologist himself. The video almost makes it sound like he was a pagan roman. He wrote a dialogue in defence of Christianity, and so perhaps you are referring just to the words of his pagan character there?
@dianawilde417
@dianawilde417 11 ай бұрын
Why did most of Jesus’s disciples stop following him after he proclaimed his message if it was just a symbolic message? They say it was a teaching that was too difficult to accept.
@HumanDignity10
@HumanDignity10 11 ай бұрын
Yep, and then he doubled-down on the teaching, he didn't soften it.
@judahwessel4155
@judahwessel4155 11 ай бұрын
​@@HumanDignity10How then do you explain the Last Supper? Jesus gives the actual sacrament and makes clear that the bread symbolizes His body by having the disciplined eat the bread "in remembrance of Me." Why would they have to remember Him if He was right there in the flesh? I think Jesus does lean into a more literal understanding of the sacrament earlier in His ministry in order to challenge the disciples to truly consider if they are willing to abandon everything but Him, including ideas that sound irrational and uncomfortable. That said, He gives the final word on the meaning of the sacrament when He actually leads the disciples in practicing it through bread and wine as a symbol of what was to come.
@dianawilde417
@dianawilde417 11 ай бұрын
@@HumanDignity10 exactly!
@lectorintellegat
@lectorintellegat 11 ай бұрын
Why did the crowd leave him? “After this many of his disciples turned back…” (John 6:66) What was the ‘this’? It wasn’t Eucharistic language, it was what he said in the very preceding verse: “And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”” Predestination language was what caused the crowd’s reaction. The apostle literally tells us - after **this**, ie what was just said.
@christianRafaelCasti
@christianRafaelCasti 11 ай бұрын
​@lectorintellegat john 6:56-60 do not seem to be helping your point friend. Anyone reads this, read the whole chapter, not just two verses it makes no sense with out context
@blitzzkrieg1400
@blitzzkrieg1400 11 ай бұрын
Hello, Brian! Everyone's gone crazy about the "Love is love" slogan nowadays, so I would like to hear your thoughts on the sexualization of love and reducing love to a romantic or sexual feeling. Thanks a lot, Brian.
@BrianHoldsworth
@BrianHoldsworth 11 ай бұрын
Does this come close? kzfaq.info/get/bejne/hbF2e7V1u82diHk.html
@brianfarley926
@brianfarley926 11 ай бұрын
Love is love is completely incoherent. I don’t love my child in the same way I love my wife. I don’t love my wife in the same manner I love my friend. These slogans are for the uninformed that don’t take the time to think through these propaganda slogans
@bradberkely7448
@bradberkely7448 11 ай бұрын
It's not even sexualization of love and reduction. It's now that love is redefined as permissiveness. As though allowing non-believers and believers alike to continue to sin and merrily dance their way into hell is the loving thing to do
@brianfarley926
@brianfarley926 11 ай бұрын
@@bradberkely7448The West has become Sodom & Gamora
@Ezekiel336-16
@Ezekiel336-16 11 ай бұрын
God is love, but His Holy Love is not even remotely the same as man's worldly (unholy love). Even apart from that, the atheist knows that not all love is right and true (equal) because a psycho can easily claim to love his or her victims before they rape, murder, torture, or abuse them. Also, love between spouses is not the same as love between siblings, friends, or neighbors, so the "love is love" lie is just a childish excuse to do what one wants whether it's right or wrong (without judgement). In Christ, Andrew
@garyr.8116
@garyr.8116 11 ай бұрын
All good points Brian! - and when you add to that, Hebrews 13:10 "We have an Altar, whom those who serve at tabernacle [Pharasees] have no right to eat" - it becomes very clear!!!! Now this should give you chills - when Christ **remains in us** /our bodies (per John 6:56 ) - then when we sacrifice our living bodies they are holy and acceptable to God - which is our True and Proper Worship!!! (Romans 12:1)!
@rogermills2467
@rogermills2467 11 ай бұрын
Yahweh Lev 3:17 “issue a perpetual LAW against eating ANY blood”. Jesus “ drink my blood”. - guys, your cult doesn’t worship Yahweh.
@thereasonableman2424
@thereasonableman2424 11 ай бұрын
@@rogermills2467 The Mosaic Law isn't perpetual, it was abolished with the sacrifice at Calvary. Are you telling me that Abraham and Isaac and Jacob are in Hell because they didn't have the Mosaic Law, therefore didn't follow it?
@thereasonableman2424
@thereasonableman2424 11 ай бұрын
@@rogermills2467 To be more specific, the Mosaic Law is not an eternal and universal Law. It was given to the Israelites mainly on account of their hardened hearts.
@rogermills2467
@rogermills2467 11 ай бұрын
@@thereasonableman2424 I am saying if God says “It shall be a perpetual statute for your generations throughout all your dwellings, that ye eat neither fat nor blood.” I will take him at his word. Because I God also warned in Deut 13 about evil people who would preach rebellion against His statutes. And I also know that numbers 23:19 that god doesn’t lie or change his mind. Also, no where in the OT is there an a provision that Gods laws are temporal. In fact psalm 19:7 God’s law is perfect and soul refreshing making the wise simple. What does Paul say about God’s law “ITS A CURSE”. Your cult rests on the Paul’s perception of Hebrew Scriptures and the fictions of Jesus written decades after Paul’s heresy. But then again, when the Hebrew Scriptures were written around 400 BCE, of course the God they worshipped will like all the rituals and customs in the scriptures and stories they invented.
@thereasonableman2424
@thereasonableman2424 11 ай бұрын
@@rogermills2467 How did Abel present a pleasing sacrifice to God if he had not received the Law of Moses? God literally gives succesive Covenants with different stipulations throughout the OT, the mosaic Covenant was just the more developed on account of needing to preserve the truth through the Israelites, even though they frequently disobeyed these laws. You think you're smart, "picking apart" the word of God, reading the Scriptures and giving the most uncharitable interpretation you can, but you're not that smart.
@chadnathe5841
@chadnathe5841 11 ай бұрын
What is the name of the chant that plays at the beginning of your videos?
@devonbroadhead7512
@devonbroadhead7512 11 ай бұрын
The picture for the thumbnail is beautiful
@carolynkimberly4021
@carolynkimberly4021 11 ай бұрын
Excellent. I don't understand why Ptotestants have any "service" at all. What's their point?
@Wgaither1
@Wgaither1 11 ай бұрын
Are you saying Protestants don’t worship God?
@thereasonableman2424
@thereasonableman2424 11 ай бұрын
@@Wgaither1 They don't, because they don't sacrifice anything to God.
@thereasonableman2424
@thereasonableman2424 11 ай бұрын
@@Wgaither1 Actually, to be more specific, they don't render any worship beyond that which might be due to say, a human ruler. The worship due to God, Latria, always involves sacrifice, which is why Pagans actually have a more developed sense of worship due to God compared to Protestants: Pagans know that a sacrifice is needed to properly worship God, protestants think you can make do with only praise.
@rackreman
@rackreman 11 ай бұрын
I wouldn’t say there’s anything wrong with Protestant services like the ones I grew up with. Generally speaking they consisted of 25-30 minutes of singing/worship time, announcements, and then 25-30 minutes of a “message” portion. The message typically connected everyday life to a Bible story, or was a deep dive into a story explaining the “how’s and why’s.” I think that kind of service can be very beneficial to Christians. As I’ve grown in my faith and looked into other traditions, I’m seeing a lot of things that I like (more?). Catholicism has had my interest since Easter. Even if I become catholic sometime in the future, I would never say that my protest brethren back home weren’t giving their hearts to the lord every Sunday. There can be very good things that happen in Protestant churches.
@brianfarley926
@brianfarley926 11 ай бұрын
@@Wgaither1No not really. It seems like a extended Bible study where a preacher takes 2-3 verses and expands upon for an hour or more. It’s great for learning Scripture but that’s not worship
@cleohanna2281
@cleohanna2281 11 ай бұрын
Oh man… when you mentioned Jesus’ PR handler following up to explain it was OK… it’s just a metaphor…. I couldn’t stop giggling… that was funny. 😅😅
@lanetrain
@lanetrain 11 ай бұрын
Could you please provide a source for Luther's rhetoric of cannibalism in The Babylonian Captivity? I'm not sure what you're referring to and I would be interested to learn. Especially since elsewhere he stated he'd rather drink pure blood with the pope than mere wine than mere wine with the fanatics.
@EasternRomeOrthodoxy
@EasternRomeOrthodoxy 11 ай бұрын
That was great, Brian😁☦🇷🇺
@clinetalbo
@clinetalbo 11 ай бұрын
Oh my goodness. I personally know the woman in the thumbnail, and seeing blood on mouth was very weird. I wonder what her thoughts would be if she saw it.
@localnwah7044
@localnwah7044 11 ай бұрын
Really did Martin Luther make that accusation? To my understanding Luther was VERY firm on defending the real presence in the Eucharist, this is what caused his big split with Zwingli was this very issue
@lesparks126
@lesparks126 11 ай бұрын
Many of Luther's writings were bombastic to elicit thought. My perspective on his view on the Eucharist was, that he did not want to get hung up about on the process. As the split was happening, he had forces in his life (Zwingli) were deconstructing everything about doctrine and dogma. He was pressed about explaining transubstantiation, and he came to a middle point explanation. I view (my perspective) it as a distinction without a difference. Human words will always fail in understanding the magnificent mystery of our Lord.
@daliborbenes5025
@daliborbenes5025 11 ай бұрын
I've gone though the Babylonian Captivity. Luther of course says nothing about cannibalism. He only critiques the Hussites for using John 6 as a defence for communion under both kinds, as the meaning of "eating the flesh and drinking the blood" are clearly figures for faith in this passage. The Eucharist has to be read back into the text. Luther would use other passages for establishing the belief in the Real Presence.
@kenlansing1216
@kenlansing1216 11 ай бұрын
Normally I fall asleep during long podcasts, not your shorter videos.
@__mari___
@__mari___ 11 ай бұрын
Excellent
@Sanguinary797
@Sanguinary797 11 ай бұрын
This is a heavy topic, but what is your view on the issue of indulgences? Are they biblical, are they just part of the church’s well being, would they even be on the same level as the sacraments? I’d love to hear your thoughts.
@markpugner9716
@markpugner9716 11 ай бұрын
What do you mean by "biblical" in this context?
@Sanguinary797
@Sanguinary797 10 ай бұрын
@@markpugner9716 mainly in the context of if something is affirmed by the scriptures (or at least the apostles) or not.
@markpugner9716
@markpugner9716 10 ай бұрын
@@Sanguinary797 Ah. Well then, I don't think they're biblical. But I don't think they are counter to scripture either. That's my two cents.
@user-zs3vd5np2s
@user-zs3vd5np2s 11 ай бұрын
Have noticed that in your cultural commentary you rely mainly on Greek philosophers and their intellectual successors - which is fine and good, but I’m curious to hear you talk about the OT for once. Is it relevant to today’s society?
@BrianHoldsworth
@BrianHoldsworth 11 ай бұрын
It's absolutely relevant. You can't understand the new without the old. Here's one video I made about the OT. kzfaq.info/get/bejne/fMiXl6qHnqm1hoE.html
@darrent.atherton8493
@darrent.atherton8493 11 ай бұрын
As I read John 6, I cannot help but understand that Jesus meant this: To truly believe in him, in his real incarnation in the flesh and in what he did and taught, is a greater thing than receiving food and drink-even miraculous food and drink-from heaven. Why? Because physical food can only sustain the body, while spiritual food (belief in him) can sustain the soul. When he sees that those closest to him are struggling with his words, he says: “Does this offend you? Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before! The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you-they are full of the Spirit and life." The Spirit gives life. The flesh counts for nothing. Think about that. It is wrong to assert that Jesus' teaching here is 'symbolic,' but it is correct to say his teaching is spiritual.
@luisoncpp
@luisoncpp 11 ай бұрын
Recently I thought in a different interpretation than thinking that we are eating human flesh and drinking human blood but just doesn't look like flesh and blood to avoid being gross. I want to know it this interpretation holds up well with Catholic theology, if there is any theologian over there, I would be happy to get some feedback: The body of Christ is larger than just the body of a human, we, as a Church are the body of Christ. During the transubstantiation, the bread and wine are incorporated into the body of Christ, so they are still bread and wine, but they are also part of the body of Christ; and by eating it, we incorporate ourselves into the body of Christ. I like this interpretation because aside the distancing from the gross imagenery, it stops depending in the aristhotelic metaphysics of escence and accident.
@rjevans2728
@rjevans2728 2 ай бұрын
All pointers point to what is not.
@sigmanocopyrightmusic8737
@sigmanocopyrightmusic8737 11 ай бұрын
Brian can you refute the scholarship of Candida moss who claims Christian persecution is a myth
@catholicactionbibleonlyist1813
@catholicactionbibleonlyist1813 11 ай бұрын
the video that ASKDrBrown did about the Eucharist and he can't two and two togther the roman accused us is the thing that Protestants does is beyond me, to me the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement are borderline Paganism
@KrazyKaiser
@KrazyKaiser 9 ай бұрын
"You are what you eat." Which scripture is that??
@everetunknown5890
@everetunknown5890 11 ай бұрын
✌🕊 God bless
@elizabethl6763
@elizabethl6763 11 ай бұрын
Protestant here discerning the catholic faith... if people are accusing catholics of cannibalism, then do they not admit the transubstantiation of the bread wine ot the body and blood of Christ?
@yxtqwf
@yxtqwf 11 ай бұрын
You make a very good argument for accepting Jesus's words as literal rather than symbolic, which I can accept, but your argument that the Eucharist isn't cannibalism (3:55) because Jesus is not violently killed (for that) is wrong. If you ate someone who died by natural means, would that not be cannibalism? If you ate someone who wasn't dead, would that not be cannibalism? I think the correct view would be to accept that it is technically cannibalism, but that it's okay because it's commanded by Jesus and because Jesus is different from any other human being.
@markpugner9716
@markpugner9716 10 ай бұрын
I think that it would be better to argue about whether or not it's okay to eat Jesus' body, rather than argue whether or not eating Jesus' body is cannibalism. Cannibalism isn't bad in every case.
@BalthasarCarduelis
@BalthasarCarduelis 11 ай бұрын
When Jesus said at the synagogue in Capernum that unless one eats His flesh and drinks His blood one has no life inside, many disciples were grossed out and they left. Jesus didn't try to stop them.
@dissident_media
@dissident_media 11 ай бұрын
This line of thinking leads to believing that baptism is an unimportant ritual thats just symbolic wich goes directly against scripture
@RandaEd
@RandaEd 11 ай бұрын
Great, but I have to ask, with your first argument that the eucharist is distinct from cannibalism because Christ is imortal and done no harm by the practice, how would that be different from eating chunks of Wolverine or Deadpool in a desperate situation? I'm not trying to argue against transubstantiation, just looking at the argument.
@markpugner9716
@markpugner9716 11 ай бұрын
Your question implies that there's something that would forbid us from eating chunks of Wolverine or Deadpool
@RandaEd
@RandaEd 11 ай бұрын
@@markpugner9716 Ok, fine, but how is it distinct from cannibalism? I think this is one of those mysteries where any analogy you make probably makes you a heretic if you think about it too hard. 🤔 😆
@markpugner9716
@markpugner9716 11 ай бұрын
@@RandaEd I don't think it's distinct from cannibalism but different enough from man eating man to be excluded from the prohibition of cannibalism
@sheri6089
@sheri6089 11 ай бұрын
This is a masterful explanation of transubstantian!!!
@jakeszig
@jakeszig 11 ай бұрын
I had a Protestant tell me that Passover was the key to salvation while simultaneously missing the point of what Jesus did at the last supper with the Eucharist. I pray we can be United again.
@rjevans2728
@rjevans2728 2 ай бұрын
Here’s the deal: if Christ was speaking literally, he would have offered his literal flesh and blood, not food stuffs. - And are were invisible angels taking the very first offering up to heaven and converting bread to flesh before Jesus had even been sacrificed?
@Gwyll_Arboghast
@Gwyll_Arboghast 11 ай бұрын
while i totally agree with the substance of this argument, this essay suffers from a severe dilution of terms like "ritual" and "symbolism". liturgy is the telos of ritual, all ritual strives toward it; the idea of "mere ritual" is a counterproductive concession to the modern mindset, in which anything nonscientific is worthless. likewise, symbolism does not properly mean two things arbitrarily associated, it refers to actual connection. sacrament is the telos of symbolism. yes, the body of christ is really present, and that is real symbolism.
@francisfischer7620
@francisfischer7620 8 ай бұрын
I'm NOT Protestant. But listen to the Mass. Really listen. What do you hear? And we're supposed to believe this literally!
@johntarihao2264
@johntarihao2264 11 ай бұрын
God is source of life.. I believe you...
@jotink1
@jotink1 2 ай бұрын
It is not a symbolic ritual that saves. The symbol points to the reality and Jesus described what the eating and drinking means. It is coming to him and believing in him the same as Isa 55:1-3 teaches about God. Salvation is in Christ not a ritual this is the Protestant objection and a reason why we think Catholics get Jn 6 wrong
@PatriceFriant
@PatriceFriant Ай бұрын
So, if the bread changes to flesh and the wine changes to blood it is not cannibalism a misunderstanding of the real presence can be kind crazy. Is Mass a sacrifice?? Did Jesus cut himself at the last supper and offered himself?? NO, he did not.
@MattKyleBullerthemattkylefiles
@MattKyleBullerthemattkylefiles 11 ай бұрын
That thumbnail!!!
@rubemartur8239
@rubemartur8239 11 ай бұрын
Was bait for both sides, i guess?
@EndTimesHarvest
@EndTimesHarvest 11 ай бұрын
This is the way that I see it: our world is in a fallen state; physical matter is in a fallen state; our own bodies are in a fallen state. Entropy has reign, causing everything to break down over time. None of the things in this world can truly nourish our bodies; even the food we eat is in a fallen state. However, the flesh and blood body of Jesus is different: through His resurrection, the physical body of Jesus is no longer in a fallen state. Instead, it's in a glorified, immortal, resurrected state. Therefore, the flesh of Jesus is the only true source of nourishment in a world where everything else is in a fallen state. The whole passage of John 6 seems to be saying that only by eating the flesh and blood of Jesus will our own physical bodies be nourished back to the immortal state that God had always intended for mankind.
@sim448
@sim448 2 ай бұрын
Please tell me where Jesus said that they become literal flesh and blood upon ingestion? "Do not put your trust in nobles, in whom no salvation belongs" the psalmist said, so why put such trust in what the later "church fathers" were teaching? Church fathers which were highly influenced by greek philosophy often in their education. Should not your trust be be more in the scriptures which are themselves DIVINE, rather than uninspired interpretations of later men? There were arleady heresies and false teachers mentioned at the time the New Testament were recorded by the apostles! Bear in mind the John 6 passage is around 1 year before the night Jesus actually instructed the apostles to partake . Were the apostles actually eating and drinking Christ blood that night as he was next to them? Did they believe that? Even in John 6 we can see Jesus is not literal "bread from heaven", it is a symbol and parrallel with the manna that fed the Israelites back in the wildnerness. Bread which sustained their life, wheras this bread, the body of Christ would sustain them forever as their redeemer. Also this was on the very night of the Jewish passover, the jews were never taught "transubstation". So when we partake the bread and the wine it is a FULFILLMENT of the passover, being set free from bondage to sin as the jews were from slavery. Hence these are reasonably intended to be symbols (the bread and wine) IF they were literal, somehow the 11 apostles were eating his flesh and drinking his blood, even though he was right there with them, how are we to explain that? Not to mention that the mass is effectively Christ being offered up again on the altar. This is clearly wrong, please my brother reconsider seriously , your life and the people you are teaching is at stake! Do not "go beyond the scriptures" and youll be safe ;) I as a brother have a duty to warn, to help you, because i love you, you are clearly a man God is drawing. Only i wish you would stick to the simplicity of scripture and not extra biblical, sinful, pagan teachings. 🙏
@ruthheredia5262
@ruthheredia5262 11 ай бұрын
Sharing here my day-long experience as a cripple facing an improvised 'shrine' I placed on the table before me. One of the images in it is an icon of the 3 archangels our familiar friends. They support between them a golden-yellow roundel with an image of Jesus Christ. To me it beautifully symbolises the consecrated host brought to me once a week: the shining round of unleavened bread which is Jesus my Beloved, God whom no universe can contain confining Himself in this little Host to enter me verily and wholly, body and blood, soul and divinity. Each time food is given me, I look at that icon and give thanks for the food as well as for the Eucharist. The wonder of it, the wonder of God's love is what sustains life, sheds light, declares truth - oh, just read The Call by George Herbert. (How strange that Herbert was a nobly born Anglican choosing to be a country parson.) 🕊✝️🌹❤
@PattyBee
@PattyBee 11 ай бұрын
I just have to say there is nothing metaphorical about Jesus saying he is the way the truth and the light
@GIVEYOURLIFETOJESUSCHRIST
@GIVEYOURLIFETOJESUSCHRIST 7 ай бұрын
Instead of looking into denominations or deciding which denomination fits best, SEEK a relationship and understanding from God with prayer and fasting. Ask HIM to show you whats real and whats not, for true history and doctrine, come out of all forms of religion and into a true relationship with God matthew 7:22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ - intimacy/charity is the foundation.
@user-fc1ld9ts8u
@user-fc1ld9ts8u 11 ай бұрын
Compare this to the youtube video of Catholic priest, Father Chris Alar, MIC, Eucharistic Miracles: Scientific Proof.
@NomosCharis
@NomosCharis 11 ай бұрын
Protestant here who enjoyed this video. Good points here! I have recently been persuaded of Real Presence in the last few years and am thankful to be rid of that “empty ritual” you speak of. Was pleased to learn in the process that most Protestants have historically believed in some form of Real Presence. The new book by Dr. Jonathan Black (a Pentecostal Seminary Professor in Leeds) published last month under the title “The Lord’s Supper” is an outstanding example of a Protestant exulting in a high Reformed view of Christ’s body and blood in the Sacrament. I would highly recommend it to anyone, including Catholics interested in learning how much a high Protestant view of the matter can approximate their own. It is excellent. One critical point: When you say that Protestants would have to admit that, according to John 6, either an empty ritual is necessary to be saved or they are denying Jesus’ statement that eating his flesh is necessary, it is important to remember that Protestants who deny Real Presence would prob say that John 6 is only tangentially talking about the Lord’s Supper; mostly, it is talking about what the Supper itself symbolizes-faith in Christ’s sacrifice, which is necessary for salvation but not exclusively acted out via the outward ceremony of the Supper. In other words, they would say the symbol is not necessary, but the reality that the symbol is pointing to is necessary, and it’s the reality Jesus was talking about, not the symbol. They would probably respond that you are not representing their view accurately. Important to do that.
@Ezekiel336-16
@Ezekiel336-16 11 ай бұрын
It's a distinction without a difference, unless those who don't believe in what Jesus said and did to provide us with His glorified and resurrected flesh to open our eyes (see road to Emmaus story) is really supposed to be an argument like Bill Clinton made about the definition of "is"! It's ridiculous, and even more so since the Greek word for "life" used in John 6:53 is "zoe" which means resurrected life with Jesus! It's all there, and not symbolically (literally)! In Christ, Andrew
@NomosCharis
@NomosCharis 11 ай бұрын
@@Ezekiel336-16 thx Andrew. Perhaps it is ridiculous. I am no longer an advocate of the symbolic memorial view, so I’m not particularly interested in defending it. Just think it should be accurately represented when responded to. BTW, ζωή just means life, any kind of life. It can even refer to your livelihood, or the substance you have to live on. It’s not exclusively supernatural life
@Ezekiel336-16
@Ezekiel336-16 11 ай бұрын
@@NomosCharis If you look at the definition for "zoe" in the concordance and related lexicon for that specific verse (John 6:53) you will see that it doesn't mean life in any ordinary sense at all. In Christ, Andrew
@NomosCharis
@NomosCharis 11 ай бұрын
@@Ezekiel336-16 yes, but that meaning is arrived at by examining the context of John 6:53, not the Greek word itself. The Greek word by itself can mean any kind of life. It does not refer to a special kind. The Greek here does not help your case (or hurt it, for that matter). Accuracy, my friend. Accuracy and honesty.
@hyeminkwun9523
@hyeminkwun9523 11 ай бұрын
Protestant churches did not even exist before Luther founded his in AD 1524, after rebelling against the Catholic Church. All protestant churches reject and work against the Catholic Church, the pillar and foundation of the Truth (1 Tim 3:15) and, thus, reject Our Lord, Head of the Church, His Body and Bride whom He saves (Eph 5:23). Our Lord said, "Whoever is not with Me is against Me (Matt 12:30). "Whoever listens to you listens to Me. Whoever rejects you rejects Me and rejects the One who sent Me (Luke 10:16; John 13:20; Matt 10:40). Whoever rejects Me and does not accept My Words has something to judge him; the word that I spoke, it will condemn him on the last day (John 12:48). You do not believe because you are not among My sheep (John 10:26)." Do you think people, who lived before Luther, were deceived by the Catholic Church lost their salvation? Nonsense! Can the Only Divine Institution fail to fulfill the mission given Her, the salvation of souls until the end of the world? Never (Matt 16:18)! Thus, whoever follows protestant churches, which teach partial truth (taken from Bible to deceive and lure unsuspecting souls) mixed with heresies and lies (to lead them to their master, enemy of souls and father of lies), is sheep outside Our Lord's Only Fold (John 10:16), in great danger of losing its eternal life. All pastors in protestant churches are wolves in sheep's clothing and, unless repent and convert, they will hear Our Lord's words, "I never knew you. Depart from Me, you evil doers (Matt 7:21-23)." Brothers and sisters, who, without fully understanding the True Faith, follow false teachings of protestant churches, come quickly to Our Lord's Only Sheepfold before it is too late (for the Satanic reign of the Antichrist is very near) so that you may hear His Voice, know and follow Him, and be saved eternally by Him. Amen!
@mathiasweil3507
@mathiasweil3507 11 ай бұрын
John 6 is not the institution of the eucharist, John 6 is the reason for which Jesus instituted the eucharist. Because we are fleshy creatures and this is why we traditionally need a fleshy way to be communicated from the grace of God, manifested in his Son. Jesus wanted us to stay focused on his sacrifice. This is why he instituted the eucharist, so that we may find a fleshy way to worship him, without going astray from the cross. In John 6, 28 : people ask : "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God ?" --> People want to put their trust in their works rather than in the finished work of the cross. It is called "Self-righteousness." In John 6, 30-31 : people ask : "What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee ? what dost thou work ? Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat." --> People are ready to believe in Jesus if he gives them material food as their fathers received in the desert. It is called "Prosperity gospel." Finally, in John 6, 42 : people ask : "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know ? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven ?" --> People are not ready to believe that Jesus came down from heaven, unless they see a sign from heaven. It is called "Charismatic movement." In conclusion, because we are creatures made of flesh, without the eucharist, we may search for other fleshy stuff to strengthen our faith, like our works, our material possessions, or miracles, and by doing so we may move away from the simplicity of the gospel, summarized in the eucharist.
@j.c.3800
@j.c.3800 11 ай бұрын
It's fun going to a church for the companionship, but I prefer reading the bible for my theology.
@joshuascott5814
@joshuascott5814 11 ай бұрын
Is your argument here seriously that it’s not cannibalism because no one is killed in the process? That argument doesn’t work since if you look up the definition of cannibalism, it’s merely the eating of human flesh by humans. If someone came across a dead human on the road and ate that person’s flesh, that would be cannibalism even though the eater didn’t kill the eaten. Or if someone cut off a chunk of someone but kept them alive and ate the chunk, that’s also still cannibalism.
@markpugner9716
@markpugner9716 11 ай бұрын
I might be wrong but I think the argument could be more accurately simplified as something like the following two points… 1. It's not _wrong*_ to consume the Body of Christ in the form of the elements of the Eucharist because they are not acquired through violence or death. 2. Even if Christ meant "this is my body" just symbolically (and not literally in the way Catholics understand it) doesn't make it not cannibalism, and surely symbolic cannibalism in that form should also be wrong. *Notice that it's not about whether or not it is cannibalism but whether or not it is wrong. Not all cannibalism is wrong!
@carstenmanz302
@carstenmanz302 Ай бұрын
Yes, Jesus is present during the mass, so to speak - SPIRITUALLY, in our heads, our consciousness, our hearts, but not in a pastry wafer and a wine cup. And certainly not in our mouths and stomachs, i.e. materially and physically! Or are there also certain residual parts of Jesus in the excrement that we excrete? Is it the Holy Spirit Jesus who comes to us during mass, or do you think Jesus needs a special priest who "conjures" him into the wafers and wine with prayer and consecration? The wine (symbolically the blood of Christ) means the COVENANT with Jesus and the covenant within the community, the body, the "flesh" Jesus is his teaching and love, which we believe in and which we should practice concretely. And why do we never get real bread and almost never wine, but only the priests who are not authorized to withhold it from the congregation? Look at the Bible how simply, sociably and without any rituals or ceremonies the early Christians celebrated the "Lord's Supper" - with a communal meal, breaking bread, wine and prayers of thanks in private houses and without any transsubstantiation mumbo jumbo! And what did the Catholics, Orthodox and Protestants later make of it - a blasphemous courtly, pompous liturgy celebrated in isolation by a "high priest" while the congregation was reduced to spectators like at a theater performance. And the community has nothing to say, is not allowed to choose the priests from among themselves and still has to pay them?!
@aborgeshonorato
@aborgeshonorato 11 ай бұрын
Oh my God😂
@ForkySeven
@ForkySeven 4 күн бұрын
“He did not speak to them without a parable; but He was explaining everything privately to His own disciples.” ‭‭Mark‬ ‭4‬:‭34‬ ‭ Saying people need to eat and drink his flesh and blood was a parable. And when he privately clarified it with his main disciples afterwards he said: “It is the Spirit who gives life; THE FLESH PROVIDES NO BENEFIT; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit, and are life.” ‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭63‬ ‭ JESUS GAVE THE KEY TO DECIPHER THE PARABLE RIGHT AT THE BEGINNING OF THE PARABLE : “Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life; the one who COMES TO ME will not be hungry, and the one who BELIEVES IN ME will never be thirsty.” ‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭35‬ ‭ Read that carefully. Come to Jesus = eat Believe in Jesus = drink Jesus didn’t literally mean eat his flesh and drink his blood. Jesus himself said: “the flesh provides no benefit” ‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭63‬ Read Isaiah 55 ““You there! Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost. “Why do you spend money for what is not bread, And your wages for what does not satisfy? Listen carefully to Me, and eat what is good, And delight yourself in abundance. “Incline your ear and come to Me. Listen, that you may live; And I will make an everlasting covenant with you, According to the faithful mercies shown to David. … For as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, And do not return there without watering the earth And making it produce and sprout, And providing seed to the sower and bread to the eater; So will My word be which goes out of My mouth; It will not return to Me empty, Without accomplishing what I desire, And without succeeding in the purpose for which I sent it.” ‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55‬:‭1‬-‭3‬, ‭10‬-‭11‬ ‭
@sz4963
@sz4963 11 ай бұрын
God’s/Jesus’s body is not human. Jesus took human form to connect with us on Earth. So it is not cannibalism!
@zwijac
@zwijac 11 ай бұрын
If his body isn't human, what is it?
@sz4963
@sz4963 11 ай бұрын
@@zwijac it is pure spirit
@CR-yd4qe
@CR-yd4qe 11 ай бұрын
The fact that you all argue like (analogy warning) cat and dog warms my atheist heart.
@BrianHoldsworth
@BrianHoldsworth 11 ай бұрын
Cats and dogs don't argue, they fight. Humans argue because we are higher in our faculties. We have more noble alternatives to violence. The expression *fight like cats and dogs* is meant to describe people who don't argue, but resort to lower forms of conflict.
@CR-yd4qe
@CR-yd4qe 11 ай бұрын
@@BrianHoldsworth I think the comparison was not misplaced? But to show my compromising nature, perhaps “Fighting like Confederates and Unionists” would meet with more approval?. Let’s face it you did used to FLCaU all over the place and still do in some parts!. Where as I can’t think of a single atheist on atheist war over whose version of M Kutzen to follow. But give it time and I sure there will be one.
@BrianHoldsworth
@BrianHoldsworth 11 ай бұрын
Because atheists are more oeace loving? Atheist regimes have murdered 10s of millions of people in the last century alone my friend. What's the death toll of prot v catholic conflict?
@PolymorphicPenguin
@PolymorphicPenguin 11 ай бұрын
If Catholics are cannibals, they are doing just what Jesus said to do. Instead of criticizing Catholics for this, we should be commending them for being good Christians.
@Wgaither1
@Wgaither1 11 ай бұрын
If receiving the Eucharist is so important, why doesn’t the Roman Catholic Church require the laity to receive the Eucharist more than once a year? Don’t make sense. Why not make it a mortal sin if you don’t receive the Eucharist every Sunday, unless you’re in mortal sin?
@thereasonableman2424
@thereasonableman2424 11 ай бұрын
Because the Church isn't here to put undue burden on the laity. In this case anyone who doesn't take the Eucharist during Mass would effectively be admit that they're in mortal sin, therefore being a source of scandal, which would definitely lead people to taking the Eucharist even if they are in mortal Sin, therefore defeating the whole purpose of taking the Eucharist.
@Wgaither1
@Wgaither1 11 ай бұрын
@@thereasonableman2424 Then why require holy days of obligation then, you can say that’s a undue burden. And the number is different depending where you live. I find that problematic, especially for someone that’s not faithful, who has the most days of obligation
@thereasonableman2424
@thereasonableman2424 11 ай бұрын
@@Wgaither1 It's not an undue burden because holy days of obligation are few and far between, you only have to attend if that wouldn't put undue burden on you. For example, if you live 2 hours away from any Mass or if you are gravely ill, you are not obligated to attend Mass every sunday or on holy days of obligation.
@Wgaither1
@Wgaither1 11 ай бұрын
@@thereasonableman2424 Why not make the number of holy days of obligation the same amount all over the world, it would be more fairer don’t you think?
@thereasonableman2424
@thereasonableman2424 11 ай бұрын
@@Wgaither1 No, because different places have different customs, why are you quibbling about the Church being reasonable and adapting to what is reasonable for each place in the World? Nations aren't amorphous blobs that are the same all over the world, there's no need to have uniform days of obligation regardless of customs and tradition.
@gerddonni2017
@gerddonni2017 11 ай бұрын
Summa cum laude!
@damnedmadman
@damnedmadman 11 ай бұрын
Also, it's not a human flesh and it's not dead, because Jesus is alive and not a mere human. We're eating His heavenly, mystical Body. I like to think about it this way (correct me if I'm wrong): It's not that bread and wine physically _turn_ into Body and Blood (because apparently nothing changes), but they _become_ it. Jesus adopts the matter of consecrated bread and wine as His body and blood - they are joined to Him in the heavenly dimension. Just like a cylinder from one angle looks like a circle, while from another like a rectangle, but actually it's more complex because it's 3D 😉
@damnedmadman
@damnedmadman 9 ай бұрын
@@LiliGoof-gh4ch God uses the matter which He created to inject his being into it. Just like Jesus is both human and God, not God instead of human, so the consecrated bread and wine get this dual nature. Consecration is nothing else than Incarnation. In our physical world there's nothing outside the appearances. When you see a horse, you know it's a horse, because it has all measurable appearances of a horse. The consecrated bread and wine retain "only" the appearances, because nothing else made them what they were. It's the spiritual/metaphysical reality that undergoes the change, NOT physical. That's why in physical terms it's still 100% bread and wine, and to deny it would be unwise. Bottom line - the senses lie to you only if you ask them the wrong question 😉
@damnedmadman
@damnedmadman 9 ай бұрын
@@LiliGoof-gh4ch Secondly - when you say "literally flesh and blood", what do you actually mean by "literally"? Because by all accounts, flesh and blood are human tissues of strictly defined appearances. So you mean what? That it's made of the same cells, atoms? Apparently not, because the chemical composition of bread/wine and bodily tissues are quite different. Maybe the same neutrons, protons and electrons, or even smaller particles? But then there would be too little - Catholics eat tonnes of the Body and Blood every week! So what do you mean by literally? Clearly it's not the case. For me the only possible explanation is that the connection is again metaphysical, unaffected by its physical state. If it were otherwise, its effects wouldn't be metaphysical and eternal as Jesus promised.
@damnedmadman
@damnedmadman 9 ай бұрын
@@LiliGoof-gh4ch Wait, you yourself confirmed what the Church teaches - that everything is changed except the appearances. All I'm saying is that in this physical world there's nothing else than the appearances. Do you disagree? If not, then from this follows that the whole physical nature of the bread and wine remains unchanged, therefore it's still bread and wine - but no longer just that, because it now has a new, heavenly dimension. The eucharistic miracles are to remind us that underneath it's the body and blood, but human tissue is not the natural state.
@damnedmadman
@damnedmadman 9 ай бұрын
@@LiliGoof-gh4ch Either you're trying hard to persuade me that I'm a heretic, or you refuse to understand me 😁 I don't believe in consubstantiation, because I don't believe that normal bread/wine have any substance - but even if they had it, it would be replaced with Jesus. The point of contention seems to be where's the boundary between appearances and substance. To me, it's simple. Appearances are all that is physical. Substance is metaphysical. If substance were physical, then it would be detectable ie. would be part of appearances, which cannot be because these are separate categories.
@zacharymello8497
@zacharymello8497 11 ай бұрын
BIG HEAD
@redlad177
@redlad177 11 ай бұрын
Cannibalism is human eating human. The Eucharist is the literal flesh of Jesus. Jesus is fully human. When you (a human) eat the Eucharist (human flesh of Jesus), you are a cannibal. All of my premises are true. My conclusion is true.
@zwijac
@zwijac 11 ай бұрын
So you admit the Eucharist is Jesus?
@zwijac
@zwijac 11 ай бұрын
Fantastic! You're well-versed in premises and conclusions. Debate and discussion. So you also know, you put yourself into an either-or category. 1. If you believe it is cannibalism, than you believe the Eucharist is actually the body of the Lord. 2. If you don't believe Catholics possess the body of Christ on their altars, then you can't hold the argument that they are committing cannibalism. It has to be one of the two.
@zwijac
@zwijac 11 ай бұрын
So which is it? Is it that your entire premise is asinine and doesn't actually exist? Or do you believe that Catholics through the ministry of their priests, transubstantiate bread into the Lord Jesus Christ?
@markpugner9716
@markpugner9716 11 ай бұрын
Do you believe (human) cannibalism to be morally/ethically wrong, and why?
@Call_Upon_YAH
@Call_Upon_YAH 11 ай бұрын
He that is weary of sin, come: Through the Holy Spirit, God has put it on me to preach to those lost in the devil's deceit! Hear me when I say, ye that are Catholic have been deceived and know not God. Ye worship Mary, praying to her; when God tells his to worship none other than him. It is idolatry. Catholicism has its own Bible and teachings, which are blasphemous to the word of God: the Holy Bible. As ye follow the teachings of man and not God; ye hear the pope, but not Jesus, yet ye claim to be his disciples! These are but a few things I named ye dwell within; there are many more. I tell you now to repent of your sins, accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, and you'll receive the gift of the Holy Spirit upon asking the Father! There are *NO* sub-divisions of Christianity. You're either a disciple of Christ or not. A Christian is someone who follows God's word, not a religion. Who obey the Father and follow his will; not man's nor their own heart's. Unless you keep Jesus' commandments, think not the Holy Spirit will dwell within you! They who heed this message and did what was stated with an open heart to God... Read the Holy Bible (KJV) daily and every time before you read, pray to the Father and ask: "Lord I ask that you give me understanding of your word, that I interpret it the way you want me to, and none of my own. I ask you in Jesus' name, amen." Revelation 22:8-9 KJV 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. Acts 2:38 KJV 38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Luke 11:13 KJV 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? John 14:21-24 KJV 21 *He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.* 22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 23 Jesus answered and said unto him, *If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.* 24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and *the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.* 3 John 1:11 KJV 11 Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. *He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.* 1 John 3:6-10 KJV 6 *Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.* 7 Little children, let no man deceive you: *he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.* 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9 *Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.* 10 *In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,* neither he that loveth not his brother.
@markpugner9716
@markpugner9716 11 ай бұрын
> There are NO sub-divisions of Christianity. You're either a disciple of Christ or not. Is it not possible to be a disciple of Christ but also be mislead?
@Bateluer
@Bateluer 11 ай бұрын
It's pretty clear in the Scriptures that it was intended to be a Remembrance for His sacrifice, not to be taken literally.
@rogermills2467
@rogermills2467 11 ай бұрын
Yahweh Lev 3:17 “issue a perpetual LAW against eating ANY blood”. Jesus “ drink my blood”. - guys, your cult doesn’t worship Yahweh.
@patrickpelletier9298
@patrickpelletier9298 11 ай бұрын
So you eat meat that has been drained of blood?
@MrKev1664
@MrKev1664 11 ай бұрын
Christ be with you Ours is the New Covenant not the Old. If you don't have the Son you don't have life (1 John 15:11-13) come to Christ
@rogermills2467
@rogermills2467 11 ай бұрын
@@MrKev1664 you do know what perpetual means? Permanent. You do know what any blood means? Not any blood. Yahweh warned about people preaching rebellion against his commands. Deut 13. “Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them,” 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The Lord your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the Lord your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death for inciting rebellion against the Lord your God,
@zxcasdqwe12
@zxcasdqwe12 11 ай бұрын
@Roger Mills Please educate yourself "The Roman Catholic Church traces its history to Jesus Christ and the Apostles" (Encyklopedia Britannica)
@rogermills2467
@rogermills2467 11 ай бұрын
@@zxcasdqwe12 yup, your cult is 2000 years old. Doesn’t make what I said untrue. Tell me where in the Hebrew Scriptures where Yahweh says his laws are temporal.
@mytwocents777
@mytwocents777 11 ай бұрын
Christ said "Do this in remembrance of me" when he instructed the disciples to eat the bread and drink the wine, which he called his body and his blood. Jesus is the Word of God, through which all was spoken into existence by Yahweh. Man cannot live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. Therefore, the metaphor of consuming the bread of life, which is the Word of God, which is Jesus Christ, for one's sustenance, is absolutely appropriate. Only a low-minded individual would find that metaphor offensive, in and of itself. However, in addition to the blasphemy inherent in the implicit dominance over Christ himself supposedly exercised by the priest in summoning Christ down to be re-sacrificed on the altar and the purported magic performed therein by transubstantating his body (literally) into a piece of food and cup of fruit juice smacks of mockery. On the flip side, we have the priest kneeling down to the host wafer and worshipping it, adding to the ritual the violation of the commandment against idolatry (which is the Biblical second commandment that has been tacked on to the very end of the Catholic first commandment, so as to be lost to the view of most readers of abbreviated versions of the decalogue), as if for good measure. This emphasis on a real and substantial transformation of Jesus Christ's body into a form that is literally and truly eaten serves to shift, in the mind, away from the metaphor which was actually intended to a real and literal eating of Jesus' physical body, which is, quite naturally, disturbing to outsiders who have not been indoctrinated. The original Reformers, identifying the Roman Catholic Papacy as Antichrist, and modern protestants who have not given up on their principles, would not be persuaded of the purity of such a ritual, recognizing that the Roman Catholic religion is designed to perpetuate serial violations of God's commandments.
@jamesajiduah2001
@jamesajiduah2001 11 ай бұрын
Justin Martyr and Augustine disagree. Also, Jesus isn't crucified again. The faithful get an unbloody representation of that sacrifice.
@mytwocents777
@mytwocents777 11 ай бұрын
​@@jamesajiduah2001 Any disagreement between Justin Martyr and Augustine is not germaine to the above. "Re-presentation" and "repetition" are distinctions conjured by the same semantic sleight of hand which sets out "adoration" as distinct from "worship" in order to defend idolatry and communication with the dead. That is made very clear when one considers, in spite of the semantics, that the inviolable bottom line is that a person is required to accept that the priest calls down Christ to an _altar_ (a sacrificial table), transforms his body and blood _really and substantially_ into an edible substance which are then supposedly literally eaten and drunk. That indicates to the mind, "this is a sacrifice". How this ritual can be called "unbloody", when the blood must be, in the mind of the priest and communicant, on pain of anathema to believe otherwise, believed to be literally there in the cup, is perplexing and contradictory.
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