In protest of the celibidache cult and his approach, I’m watching this video at double speed!

From a personal perspective, I am grateful for the existence of recordings. Coming from a small town in a developing country, how could I have gotten to know all the music I love if not for recordings? That snobbish attitude hurts the very thing they claim to adore. Why wouldn't they want the music they are supposed to love to reach as much audience as possible?

I admit confusion. Since Celibidache denounced and rejected recording on principle, wouldn't a true cultist honor the condctor best by refusing to listen to his recordings? Or at most listening only once as if attendance at the concert in question?

Part of Karajans recording success is his understanding that live and recorded performances were different things. His recorded performances were consciously geared towards repeated listening. Concerts were events, chances were taken, more flexibility allowed… to me, that’s the problem with most live recordings: not the mistakes, but the giving in to the moment, which is great live, but tires on repeated listening…

The coda of Bruckner's 4th, the adagio of the 6th, that intensity in the crescendos of the 1st movement of the 8th... the Bruckner recordings he did with the Munich Philarmonic are incredible! On the other side, I always wonder how Michelangeli and Celibidache could get along and work together... These two men, through their recording of the Ravel concerto, represent the "nec plus ultra" of "cultitude".

I think he’s the guy who hired a trombonist on a blind audition, then was shocked that the best trombonist was a woman and refused to seat her in the chair position. You have to wonder about the artistry of a musician who lets his eyes overrule his ears like that.

A critic is someone who judges but does not create anything. Celibidache's Bruckner no 4 concert was incredible.

Delicious video. Never heard of the name and you made it interesting. Reminds me of a Mahler/Abbado 4th new recording I played for the first time at 1/2 speed with out knowing it....until I thought, that's a long part.

Excellent discussion, Dave. Thanks for expressing your reasonable perspectives respectfully and lucidly.

What I have learned from encounters with several toxic personalities in the music world is to be wary of charisma. The job of conducting (and probably of teaching in general) favours charismatic personalities who coax people to abandon an independent, skeptical perspective, and that’s why so often people reject other interpretive standpoints without any factual legitimation of doing so.

Thanks for your thoughts. In my case, I went through a Bruckner phase when I listened to many different recordings. I would say that I enjoyed the slow tempo because it allowed me more time to hear details in Bruckner’s work… particularly th dissonant harmonies that otherwise happen so quickly that they are easy to miss in pursuit of melody , Just one person’s non expert opinion

I've recently seen some TV footage of him performing Beethoven's 7th on KZfaq and it was such a drag to me that I felt a strong urge to leave a critical comment with all the risk of being bashed by some of his devotees. As expected, one of them (rather kindly) showed me all of my faults while praising the performance for musical qualities that aren't even there. What I found curious was that he never called him by his name (or surname), it was always Maestro. Maestro does this, Maestro does that....crap.

It is always funny to read the letter Kleiber published in Der Spiegel. KZfaq will remove the link but just search for Kleibers letter to Celibidache and Google will do the magic.

Dave you've made some excellent points. I missed some very fine music by following a cult conductor. Thanks Dave

Ironically, all the Münchner PO concerts were recorded, in analogue through the end of 1988, and in digital from then onwards. Consequently, there exists a good documentation for the work of Celibidache, and also of Carlos Kleiber (who also refused to set foot in a studio after Tristan in 1980). They are live, one-off recordings and preserve problems of the moment, but many of them are very valuable. I treasure a 1975 Kleiber Rosenkavalier, for example. Interestingly, Celibidache conducted Bruckner's Fourth in late 1988 (recorded in analogue) and early 1989 (recorded in digital). The 1989 was released on CD and the 1988 on both CD and just very recently on LP! The analogue one clips along at a good pace, but the digital one lasts forever and ever. That shows that he was not just a one-trick pony. I wonder how he convinced the same players to treat the same work with such different tempi, in such quick succession? In examining the videos of Bruckner in Japan, one sees that he maintained a rock-steady pulse, even when the tempo was unbelievably slow. He didn't just wave a limp wrist or a toothpick, he made large gestures to set the pulse and stayed with it. If he often started slow, he did not slow down as he went along, or slow down for the quiet passages and speed up for the loud ones. So I admire his music in Bruckner (which seems to work both faster and slower), but I wonder if something happened to his brain (a la Klemperer) at the beginning of 1989 that highlighted the slowness. Perhaps it was karma for the abuse of trombonists?

The only personality which should deserve recognition is that of the composer, whom musicians serve as a vehicle, adding their talent to convey an emotional reading of their works. For that, I think the first quality they should display is humility. Toscanini or Szell were certainly not humble guys with their musicians, but they recognized the composer's primacy. I'm concerned only about music, and performances that touch my heart and set my imagination in "flying mode". I find Chelibidache more useful than enjoyable: his slow interpretations sometimes serve me to catch texture details to look for in other more exciting performances. Nevertheless, I can't deny that he's good on Bruckner and when music benefits of his ponderous approach. That's my taste. I'm Roberto Escobedo from Mexico, best regards to all.

Over the years, Celibidache conducted 99 concerts in Spain. I attended nine of those concerts in his later years with the Munchner Philharmoniker, between 1989 and the mid 90s. Among the works I heard live are several Bruckner symphonies (7th, 3rd--twice, 4th and 8th) and other works by Beethoven, Tchaikovsky, Debussy and Strauss. He was unlike any other conductor I ever watcherd and heard live. This being said, in spite of his uniqueness, not once did he lead me to tears, which is something that sometimes happens, probably because of the intensity of the music and the receptiveness of the listener. As far as tears are concerned, with Zubin Mehta, a very electrifying conductor when you see him live, it was two out of seven.

Dave, your arguments are right on the mark, I can completely associate with them. One thing I would like to comment on, and that's something that all those listeners who base their arguments and judgement of performances purely on subjective factors, tend to forget (or are willingly ignorant to the fact) that you're a trained musician, who is able to judge a performance's merits based on musical facts rather than extra-musical information. It's another thing that you include additional factors in your "opinion" but they are also supported by your competence of judgement in this particular form of art. What I mean to say is that while I may be enjoying a particular performance, based on what I can grasp/understand of the musical realization of the concept of the composer/interpreter, I would never set my arguments against a trained professional and claim that my arguments are just as valid as his (regardless of the fact that I may have valid arguments in terms of judging a performance's merits based on comparative analysis, but they would still be subjective. My long(ish) comment is a general one, sorry, if I included it in the wrong place but I just watched this video after your video on the 2023 Bitchfest (and I must say I found both of them hugely entertaining) and I felt compelled to leave my comment in response to the phenomenon, in general.

I have a soft spot for Celi's Bruckner even though they're slow. But for some reason I still think they stay intact and sound lovely. But I agree they're more Celi than Bruckner. When I want Bruckner there are dozens who conduct him in a more faithful way and I'll then choose Simone Young or Jochum or Karajan or tons of others. So which group of weirdoes do I fall under? :D

We here at the Carlos Kleiber cult couldn't agree more! Thank you, David!

This seems like a good time and place to point how impressed I always am with those who comment on Mr. Hurwitz's videos. I value the comments almost as much as I value Mr. Hurwitz's reviews and discussions, which is saying a lot. These are thoughtful, civilized and articulate music lovers who agree to disagree, unlike the bitter and snarky commenters found on a certain gossip-mongering classical music blog originating in the UK. It seems to me that great music hasn't done the latter bunch much good.

Dave, hello from Chilly Philly! I love your programs. What do you think of Christian DeNeuve's Berlioz interprétations? I've only seen a few videos, but it seems to me that he's overly histrionic, and gives too much weight to immersing himself in the music, to the point where his phrasing acquires too much rubato, and takes such liberties with tempo, as to render one to question the validity of his strange approach to some of the maestro's most enduring masterpieces.

Celibidache's "Zen/Buddhist" inspired philosophy is based on common myths about Zen popularized in the '50s and on. The idea that nirvana is some kind of blissful state of calm, silent, mindless, spiritual bliss based on a rejection of conscious thought, etc. is one of the shibboleths challenged by Buddhism in the past 2 decades. Buddhism, like every other religion has been used for centuries to justify all kinds of actions (or non-actions). To put it simplistically, the ideal of something likes Zen is an attitude of complete openness to the mess of any and all situations and conditions, so that one can do what is appropriate for the benefit of all - happiness lies therein. The ideal is the complete opposite of selfishness. The larger self is the realization of one's self in actions that benefit all others. Zen, or other Buddhist ideas, is hardly justification for narcissistic navel-gazing, and rigid application of a "method", like slow tempos when they're not called for. Unfortunately Zen often becomes a justification for just that - self absorption. Instead, a truer Zen-like approach would be a selfless openness to the infinite ambiguity of what the music calls for, and give complete dedication to that. To cite my grad school mentor talking about art history - a Dutch Catholic missionary priest (of all things) - art history should be dedicated to doing justice to the work of art. He echoed what I hear in Dave's admonition to "keep on listening." My teacher kept saying, "keep on looking," "what do you SEE?" I have taken this advice to thinking about art and music in general.

Whether you like him or not, Celibidache was an exceptional artist. Reading the comments here, people complain mostly about his tempi. He knew why he didn't want recordings, he was smart, they made his tempi implausible. But God, they were right in the concert hall, I was fortunate enough to have been in so many of them. Never heard anything like it since! His recordings are but a greyscale photo of a bed of flowers. The spectrum of colours he got out of each instrument in the orchestra and the absolute transparency of the sound in the hall are unmatched. Don't blame him for his family having released the recordings. You may not like his discs Mr Hurwitz but to call anyone disagreeing with this a toxic cult is a little over the top maybe?

My college Theory/ear training teacher (which later became a very close friend & collected recordings- we use to have Friday night listening night) tried to get me to drink the "Cele" koolaid, and I almost fell for it. His reputation was overblown, and his performances go nowhere. Thank God I only bought 3 CD's and quickly traded them in on good/enjoyable recordings which I still own.

David. As we speak about listening to recorded music. What gear do you use and do you have any opinions about what level of audio equipment you should use? I ask because I think sound quality is important to get a good listening experience.

Hello David I would like to know your opinion about I Musici and the upcoming box set of analogue Recordings, thanks.

My background is the fine arts, and we have some crazy critics and historians who insist on inserting commentaries about the artists' life into their discussion of that artist's work, even when that personal history has absolutely no reflection in the work of art. I hear you complain about this, too, as in the case with Bruckner, where critics keep talking about his peasant-like appearance, as if listening to his music is like stepping into a lower class hovel, instead of, for instance, like stepping into a cathedral. But in music, you have that added aggravation that the performer may also have baggage that gets inserted into the critical outlook of the performance. This is distracting at best, but most of the time it is corrupting and destructive to legitimate musical ends. It is often made worse by the contrasting ridicule that even famous composers sometimes suffer. My pet peeve is the cult that used to surround von Karajan, as if we should have given a shit that he drove an expensive sports car to his recording session of the Pathetique. It is all really sickening.

For me the job of a good critic is not to grade a performance on an objective scale (the usual high-minded and boring mission statement) but to 1) be entertaining, 2) adequately describe the work and/or performance so the reader can deduce if he or she might like it, and 3) teach the reader something they didn't know about the work or performers (which for intelligent people tends to be the best form of entertainment anyway).

I just recently finished listening to Orfeo 5-CD Celibidache box and the Decca Erich Kleiber box around the same time. I found myself enjoy listening to the Celibidache box more. Erich Kleiber's performances are better but personally I think there are performances with similar style with better sound which make the Kleiber box unnecessary to keep. For Celibidache, I can usually find moments in the performances that I like and few people does it the same way. For the parts that I don't like, when I listen to them again, I get used to them and they became not as bothersome. Today I listened to his DG Stuttgart Bruckner 7. Didn't like it and didn't bother listening to it again. Now I move on to the Gunter Wand RCA box. I am only half way through disc number 1 and I am already impressed

I read that the members of the BPO didn't care for Celibadache, and heard that this was because of an attitude of entitlement on his part: he thought that he would get the BPO when Furtwaengler was gone. The only Celibidache I have is his Schubert's 9th which I don't care for. I knew a Brucknerite who liked Celibidache.

I watched a wonderful performance by Trifonov on youtube- a pianist I love ( and how can anyone not)- and made the heinous mistake of commenting on the strands of soaking hair across his forehead; an observation, not a criticism, but I quickly realized I had stumbled across a site for Trifonov worshippers, when my observation was met with savage attacks on me. Wow. I hastily deleted the remark, in order to stanch the flow.

Having several thoughts about this matter I'll mention just one. Wondering why haven't you mentioned one quality that Celibidache is entirely lacking - leaving spaces between sounds or silences within which music is flowing. This is one of the main qualities that give music air and tension, even if tempo may be extremely slow. His interpretations sound as if he wanted to suffocate compositions he conducted. For instance his Haydn got literally strangled...

Sam the record man in downtown toronto actually had a "bootleg" section of his recordings. Always wondered who was this guy. Why buy a dubious copy when somebody i heard of is releasing the same stuff. In the internet age i found out he had a following.

Many performers have a " cult-like following". Celibidache is an actual cult. ( Correntis is the only other one I know of. ) it's the deciples, though. I am not sure how much devotion was encouraged or required from the master himself.

I agree with every word in this video!

I joined the Havergal Brian Society some years ago. One of the nicest societies of its kind. Would happily join again.

My take from this video is not that variety is a virtue, but that objectivity is. Nonetheless, I found your comments valuable. Thank you.

Outstanding commentary, Dave. Though I'm not sure if a Reginald Goodall cult still really exists, due to the paucity of his output, much of what you said applies to the near-worship his excruciatingly slow and labored Wagner recordings evoked, especially in Britain. His Meistersinger if anything even heavier and more labored than his Ring and Parsifal. (Quite aside from his unremitting adherence to Oswald Mosley and his party. ) I believe even Celi will eventually be given up as a lost cause.

Thank you for this video, as it represents a bucking of the trend that has seen people say “don’t read or respond to the comments!”. That is an unhealthy phenomenon, because discourse should be two way. And you show that you want to engage in good faith on each matter, which is excellent. As for Celibidache, I did obtain his recording of La Mer (upon your recommendation), thought it intriguing, then returned to ones I like more. As is the point of your channel.

Try pointing out there are better Bach pianists than Glenn Gould, if you really want to stir up a hornet's nest.

I would say, do not listen to his performance if you cannot hear what happens (sometimes). I mean really listen... full attention, I could almost say awareness. And you may experience something. If not... It does not really matter ;-) listen to other! If you do not get it, it is not important. I am happy that I can get it sometime, and what I am sure is that Celibidache is a much greater artist than me and that he help me to get an direct experience of the sound an the possibilities. Of course you should not start with his performance or consider this way of playing to be "the way" to do it. But once you know a piece it is sometime facinating to listen what he does. Again, it you do not get it it is not important 🙂.

If you think cult of Celibidache is bad, the cult of Wim Winters makes you go back to Celi's recordings.

Tout cela est vrai et méritait d'être dit. Merci.

Conductor cults are an annoying fact of classical music life that I think are best ignored. I listen to what I like, whoever the conductor. Regarding Celibidache, I enjoy some of his work and find his early recordings generally much better.

That Sibelius 5 was truly horrible. Musicians should play musically, not philosophically. Great musicians show respect and love for the music. Musical philosophers only respect and love their egos, and, of course, what ever praise their cultists lavish on them. Navel-gazing and good performance are usually incompatible.

Until you made the recommendation to listen to the Jochum Brahms recordings, I had forgotten them. They are some of the best on the market. They have the freedom and breathing of Furtwängler and the ensemble of Szell. Celi always bored me.

Ivo Pogorelich is an artist who is remarkably similar to Celibidache. Both pick apart the works they play by playing EVERYTHING at least half tempo and indiscriminately highlighting often trivial bits of material, and both have spawned similarly crazed pseudo-spiritual fanbases. Just because somebody expresses something in a novel way doesn't mean it's good, unless, I suppose, you worship the concept of them having created that novel idea. The novelty of the idea, according to such a person, would necessarily facilitate a new understanding of the world. This fact, independent of the quality of the art determined by the generally accepted and internalized criteria of the art form/genre, would mean to such a person that the art must necessarily be the mark of a genius. In fact, for this person, it is when a piece of art seemingly cannot be adequately judged based on the current criteria that that art has true value. It is when the value structures are questioned that the appreciation comes. I think that oftentimes it is due to this sort of reasoning that one decides to worship figures such as Pogorelich or Celibidache, not because they actually enjoy (or experience) the emotional reaction that the music had been written to evoke (if that was indeed the intention of the music). This is not to say that one cannot get real enjoyment out of either's interpretations (I like recordings of both), it is just that when a cult gathers around something, I question whether the admiration stems from the art itself, or a collective intellectual exercise with the art as its subject.

Laughed my ass off at this and I've barely heard Celibidache

Strangely you can find more Celibidaches documentaries on YT than Karajan docus, not mentioning many other first class conductors where you'll find an interview as best. I watched the newest documentary about him and there was not a single word of critique about his slow approach, far better, his slowness wasn't even mentioned. It may not be directly related to the matter, but there are two things that make me scratch my head when reading through various classical music forums. Two kinds of people who think they found ultimate wisdom and therefore are superior to us ordinary mortals: 1. "After hearing the Beethoven symphonies by Gardiner I will never listen to any conductor who doesn't play them in the correct tempo. How could I even bother with that boring shit like Karajan, Szell or Klemperer." I don't comment this, it speaks for itself. 2. People who look down contemptuously on others who think that the production of an opera should be in line with its musical and lyrical content and when an faithful production is mentioned in the forum they just answer "oh this old boring shit is so full of cliches". I'm personally turned off seeing Parsifal playing in prison with a stage crowded with policemen or any other 19th century opera playing in a subway or the Ring, where every characters is made up like a clown. I think modern Regietheater brings out more abominations than benefits. But according to the defenders of Regietheater the ones who don't like it don't have the intellect to understand it and live in the past anyway. Maybe this would be an interesting topic for a future video, if you like.

Finally someone who unleashes so many passions is bound to be interesting.

Thank you Dave for being a voice of reason in the industry, and please keep up the good work!

I personally really enjoy Celibidache's live recordings but his style is idiosyncratic as can be.... a bit like Glenn Gould but their style is like the polar opposite; Gould was cerebral to the extreme, whereas Celibidache was spiritual to the extreme. By the way, an identical quasi-Messianic cult exists around the Hungarian pianist Ervin Nyiregyházi.

But he is interesting. And this is a point.

Thank you, David, for this long overdue and well presented rant. It's about time someone went after Celi Cult, and you did it well.

If you want to hear Celibidache at his best hear his pre-1955 recordings or live performances. Once he got involved in this Buddhist trauma the whole musical work became completely ruined. In those days he was very promising.

Very interesting. This is much needed today, open, honest, respectful presentation of one’s point of view.

You obviously are more knowledgeable about music than I am, but your offensive comments and opinions are highly questionable. I have listened to Bruckner almost on a daily basis for the last 30 years, and I have found his interpretations of Bruckner as among the very best. The slow tempi can be shocking at first, sometimes they seem inappropriate, but in many cases they really do bring the complexity, depth and greatness of the music to new levels. It's easy to be a critique of music (or of wine, or anything else), much harder to actually create or perform it. I like your channel and frank opinions, but this one is a real low.

I LEARN from you - Thank You

...And when the Celi Cult meshes with the Bruckner Cult - whoa !!!, we got a party.

It's "Infinite diversity in infinite combinations". Sad that I know this.

I wouldnt be surprised if you received death threats. He isnt the first strange conductor, but even Stokowski didnt have this kind of cult following. "Celi' didnt discourage it, but I dont know how much he consciously developed the cult. With few recordings , it added to his mystique. Saw him once on tour with his orchestra. The crowd was ecstatic, the performance: meh, whatever. The strings were very loud. Thats my only memory.

Wonderful talk Dave. Thanks so much. Sincere serious musicians abhor the cult of personality & some have had their lives almost ruined by it ("but these people don't even know me" was the rather naive comment of one famous singer plagued by "fans"). Others seem to cultivate the attention & the following. There's a fun analysis of the whack job dynamics in Freud's Group Psychology & the Analysis of the Ego. I recently met a fellow music lover in London who after a concert kindly invited me home for a coffee. The feature wall of his listening room displayed some 15 signed photographs of Kna... hmmmm

I totaly agree. This is a cult, like a religion. But you want to believe him when you listen what he says. It makes you feel good. The slow tempo works on Bruckner. The rest is weird.

Several years ago, I discovered an interview on KZfaq of Celibidache discussing his philosophy of music. Not being a musician or a philosopher, I thought that the interview would still be of interest. On the contrary, I could not interpret anything the man said. Complete gobbledygook. Still love his Bruckner, though.

Much thanks for the image of Celibidache conducting Beethoven naked smothered with whipped cream.

Appeal to authority is the biggest problem facing classical music performers, I feel. When musicians no longer feel like they can trust their own point of views on music, and instead resort to aping their favorite(or most revered) interpretation, you get phony and disingenuous performances

The proof that the man intrigues and interests, your video has a good number of views, even better than your other videos which are usually a success

As you do, I like some of his Bruckner; but in light of the cult raves, I started listening to some of his other youtube videos of other composers and was less than impressed and even distressed at what he did with some works.

I used to force myself to listen to him, convinced he would help me find a deeper meaning with his slogging tempos, but he never did. Ultimately it occurred to me-if you don’t like it, stop listening!

Do you think that was the reason why Celibidache was so good at Bruckner? Because of the non positive aspects of the music of Bruckner that were so loved by Celi.

Hardly anything could be more alien to me than devoting myself body and soul to some artist however good he or she may be. Art - as well as science for that matter - should be about searching, not about claiming to have found something supposedly ultimate. I love listening to different kind of interpretations of my favorite works. I may not like all of them equally (how could I), but that's what makes this hobby so continuously interesting.

I think a BIG part of Karajan's leaving the BPO was over a similarly "misogynistic controversy" surrounding clarinetist EXTRODINAIRE Sabine Meyer. Karajan hired Miss Meyer in 1982; one of the first female musicians to join the BPO... but the all-male Berliners - displaying, spectacularly, for ALL the world to see, their collective sissified insecurity as males of the species! - voted AGAINST her permanent tenure (by a vote of 73-4... claiming that her "tone was incompatible" with the more astute members of the He-Man clarinet section!). After 9 agonizing months in the BPO, Meyer left that fetid organization (🖕held firmly aloft!) to become one of the world's premiere clarinet soloists, making a string of fabulous recordings for EMI (HA, and double HA, say I!). After such a thorough display of "male chauvinism trumps music," Karajan's relationship with the BPO was never the same again (Karajan did, in fact, have two daughters!)... and in only 6 years, he too resigned his position with the... er... orchestra... making his final recording NOT with the BPO, but with their great Austrian rivals, the Wiener Philharmoniker. Oh, the sweet IRONY of it all! Mike D.

Let's be real here, there is no chance in hell he rejected recordings because of his philosophy. He just first heard how his performances suck and then he invented a philosophy to excuse himself and to cope. Just like how people praise performances on ridiculous grounds. For example, my music history teacher praised Celi's Pictures at an exhibition because the Promenade goes at a walking pace which is idiomatic. Yeah, because we all know THAT IS WHY HE DID IT. If it was called A Sprint through the Gallery he would still take that damn tempo and we all know it.

Celi obviously had a Cult following. His overly Slow tempos drove me crazy! He never observed the composer s intentions ie: Tempo markings.He,and He alone Dictated the tempos. He would have better suited being a Dictator in some country that accepted Dictators

The selectivity axiom put forward in this video certainly seems sound. As already was mused in The Good Book: "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good" (1. Thess, V, 21)! As for Celi's pseudophilosophy, in my book it runs along with the superficiailty, one somewhat always senses with Karajan (the person that is, not the musician!), when he touched upon extra-musical matters. To both of them the concept of humility seemed as remote as from here to the next galaxy. Karajan with the cult and entourage, while alive - Celi even more dead than alive. And whilst at it: zen hasn't much to do with being intolerably slow, as Peter Maag proved to a 't' - both before and after his time spent in a monastery garden! One of the Celi recordings, I cherish, though, didn't make it to Dave's top 5. It's not for everyday listening, but I like to tag along the promenade through his Pictures at an Exhibition - and, boy, that Great Gate of Kiev is IMMENSELY GRAND! 😁

amazing story about the cult of personnality and funny to...oh my god ...i d,ont beleive that....and for the TEMPO.....so one other amazing story....you know certainely mr hurwitz....when leonard bernstein want to conduct the first piano concerto of brahms with glenn gould,,he made a speech before and he tell '' i gone to adopt the tempo of mr gould for this concerto''....and this is incredible ...when he recording the same concerto with krystian zimmerman for dgg....bernstein adopt the same tempo of glenn gould.....amazing story in the history of music.....!

David -- I agree with your assessment of Celibidache completely. Most of the performances I've heard either border on the absurd or are over the border. Consider his Fledermaus Overture. Can any sane person believe that his tempo is Allegro Vivace? His Sibelius En Saga is contrary to what Sibelius wrote in so many ways, including his long accelerando at the end that Sibelius did not requrest. On and on. And, of course, Carlos Kleiber disliked both the man and his work (and wrote that very funny letter supposedly from Toscanini in heaven about Celibidache, telling him he "sucked"). Every now and then you find a Celibidache performance that is convincing, mostly Bruckner. As for the Celi crazies, agree there too. Much like most cults, the operative word is "crazy".

I was just telling my brother that I was slowly discovering that he is over rated. If it wasn't for all the KZfaq videos of his recordings, I never would have discovered that his performances are so slow that a lot of them just limp along. Glad to know I'm not the only who feels this way.

Bravo. Celi was one of the biggest phonies in music. His cultists are really lost. Beyond help.

In interviews, Celibidache trashed many, if not all, of the other conductors with name recognition, starting with Bernstein and ending with Karajan. Never trust such a person.

There's no concept more perplexing to me than the worship of an individual, particularly a deceased one. What merit is there in the mindless (and often times, venomous) defense of one's hero? Surely it can't be for attention, if their hero is dead -- and even if that weren't the case, I doubt Mr. Celibidache would take notice of all their screeching and gnashing of teeth, anyways.

Hi Dave. I'm sorry you have to deal with celibidache cultists. I find them and the worship of their hero so tiresome. There is a strain of them within our Bruckner cult. A cult within a cult. I've had to cut of one of them after I said his recording of Bruckners 9th isn't profound just very slow. Yes you may hear inner details in the score, but so what. His tempo reminds me of my beginning study of a piano work where I go pretty slow. I joke to my wife, im not slow, im profound! Classical music has many of theses artist cults. Many elevate composers themselves to near deities, worshiping them as superman. As I've aged, I've less patience for it all. Paul G

Dave, in a book authored by composer Bengt de Törne, Mr. Törne claimed Sibelius said, "Remember, a statue has never been set up in honour of a critic!" I dare say Celibidache's followers are not going to build you a statue! The Sibelius quote seemed to be apt for this situation. I have a lifetime experience in the arts are whether the artist belongs to the cult of academic modernism or the cult of Celibidache, the person usually lacks imagination. I endured academic ax grinders in art college and without a doubt, they made the worst art that was worthy of only being used as a doormat. Cultists exist everywhere and there characteristics are similar.

Fun name, bad conductor.

Thank you for this video and your honesty. The "anthill" needs to be more than poked, but I'll try and show some propiety. 👉🏻⛰️🐜