Between Analog Planet, Acoustic Sounds, and the In Groove, 7,000 people watched this in the first 3 hrs. during and since this discussion occurred. Now, that says something. Thank you, Michael Fremer, Michael Esposito, and Chad Kassem. Great talk, great points, and great passion. The fact that so many people were interested in hearing you guys talk about everything vinyl is an excellent sign that vinyl is here to stay.

Fremer still doesn’t understand Esposito’s point on the ERC records- being that a $500 record should not have the defects that a $20 GZ Pressing has. Analogue Productions sells these extremely high quality records for $40-100, and I’ve never gotten quality defects from them. Never had a seam split, warp. As a matter of fact, their covers are some of the highest quality jackets I’ve ever seen, and definitely the highest quality I own. Their records sound incredible, and they charge under $100 for them. Mike E. got seam splits and a bubble on his first try with ERC, and that was $500. How is that fair to charge 7x the amount but have more defects than an Analogue Productions or Mobile Fidelity release?

I’ve met Mike at his store, and is a very nice man. He’s very knowledgeable and was able to answer several questions that I asked him.

I agree with Mike Esposito that lacquers are not a viable long term solution for owning and playing music - I own several dozen lacquers, some dating to the 70's, and aging effects are clearly evident on the older ones. To the point that I would not drop my expensive stylus on many of them at this point. If you want a trophy to hang on a wall, and are willing to pay the money to acquire a lacquer, got for it. If you want a record you can play hundreds of times over the rest of your life, buy a vinyl record. Second, I believe that Mr Fremer should NOT be advocating for or championing a particular manufacturer (ERC in this case) if he is beholden to them in any way. If you accept tens of thousands of dollars of free merchandise from someone, you have a conflict of interest that is likely to color your judgement, irrespective of whether you believe that to be true or not. Here's an easy way to get rid of the conflict of interest so you are free to speak your mind with a clear conscience, and be considered credible: Return the records to the manufacturer once you have reviewed them, or Give the records away to your channel subscribers, or Destroy them if the first two options are not possible. Accepting free merchandise from a manufacturer, and then stepping up to publicly attack someone with valid criticisms of said manufacturer's products is unprofessional at best.

This is by far the most entertaining and educating exchange on anything related to vinyl I have seen in years. Appreciate and respect the passion all three of you brought to the table.

First I no longer consider myself an "audiophile" but just a musicphile. I have two comments. I managed a mid to high end audio store in the late 70's to early 90's and the store and myself received a lot of free merchandise over the years. Second, I still have over 5000 albums in my collection including many half-speed, 150, 180, 200 and D2D. Personally I would never pay $500.00 for a lacquer and if I did I sure would not expect any and I mean any defects in a limited 300 release. For that matter I would not expect any defects in a $35.00 album.

Since the begining of recorded music it seemed the goal was two fold: 1.create a format that sounds like the real thing and 2. create a format that allows more continuous listening time...with cds it seemed we had moved forward towards that goal quite a bit. I assumed that 35 years later we would have a format that gave us unlimited music with the fidelity of vinyl at a reasonable price.but we haven't.. The record industry now seems to have moved away from getting as many records to as many people as possible, and focused more on a Beanie Babies marketing system. Creating collectors markets just by sheer supply manipulating. Sad.

Mike Esposito, man. Integrity personified. Dude will never steer you wrong.

Are all lacquers the same? I ask because elsewhere in his Analog Corner #60 Mr. Fremer says, "Of course, a lacquer is only good for a small number of plays before it wears out. More troubling is lacquer's extreme flammability-great for a disco, where everyone's smokin' and tokin'." Is this referring to the same thing as here?

Mike Esposito is right on this point (among others): If you are going to pay $575 for an extremely limited edition record, don't you think the manufacturer should pay a couple of people to visually check every record that comes out of the machine, for flaws such as bubbles? For $15/hr I'd pay 2 guys: one to look at it first, and another to double check it, before it goes into the sleeve. If this is a pressed album (as opposed to a lacquer cut in a lathe), I'd also play one for off center and warping issues. I own a lot of albums pressed in the 1970s and 1980s and almost zero have off center pressing problems, as compared to about 40% of what has been coming out for the past 12-15 years from American factories.

As usual, Chat promoting sh$t load of his products every chance he gets. My opinion on lacquers is this: I really don’t give a sh$t. Just press quality records at reasonable price. That’s where I’m at.

my .02 as a semi-serious collector, low budget audiophile, and small record store owner... Mike is right in his criticism of lacquers as a long-term media solution. Yes, Michael might have some that have been played many times that he swears still sound good, and maybe they do, but a huge majority of buyers, collectors, and players have reported substantial degradation in sound quality, especially in the higher frequencies after as few as 5-10 plays. Maybe Mike was a bit harsh in his criticism of Michael directly, but no matter how differential Michael claims to be, there's no way he would find ANY defects acceptable in a $575 record if he was paying his actually hard earned money for said record. Any company that sells just 300 a month of ANYTHING, should have a strict, no defects QC policy, period. I don't buy or sell $500+ records, so maybe I shouldn't even care or comment, but some things just feel like common sense, regardless.

That was great. Clearly y'all are good guys. I almost feel bad for some of the comments I've made recently about Mike from Phoenix. Yeah, I do feel bad. Love the passion. I can't knock any of you guys. Chad is cool as hell, but we all knew that. GREAT STUFF GUYS! Thanks.

Only the KZfaq channels of both Mikes have been able to get sit down for hour-plus discussions on music and records .. thank you both for all you done .. 👍

Thank you Chad, Fremer and Mike you all are making this vinyl hobby fun! Fremer's magazine articles is how I got back into vinyl in the 90's!! 😉✌

I watched the whole debate and I concluded that the whole thing was a storm in a teacup or like we say in french " Une tempête dans un verre d'eau ".

In this video Fremer (one of my heroes) sounds so fragjle.. sad.. way to go Mike Esposito!

Do you think John Coltrane would have cared about any of this lol

Mike bought a record from me and was very nice in our conversations. I’ve also bought several records from Mike and he was a very nice guy when I went to his store, and he has one of the top record stores in the country. Thank you both for continuing to spread the love of all analogue mediums with a focus on quality mastering! It would be more productive to the community for less contentious and more good-humored discussions.

Glad to see this! Often online disagreements are misinterpreted. Michael has an unusual sense of humor that sometimes does not translate well online. Personally, I love his offbeat style. I hope to see collaborations with these two pillars in the Analog World!

Thanks guys, that was awesome and very helpful.

for the price it should be flawless.

The passion these men have is great. They all have good points and respect them all.

Hello Michael. When can we listen to your recorded system directly through an iphone? Thank you.

Mike Esposito crushed it.....I feel he truly has the best interest of those he serves

Not quite related, but those 30 ips tapes- the frequency response of machines at that speed are generally rated as 40 hz upwards, so people often drop to 15 ips or lower to capture the bass frequencies. I'm pretty sure that countless albums have been recorded at 30 ips with frequencies lower than 40hz. Any chance of a test?

My appreciation for Mike E. has really grown after watching this.

I kind of think Chad is involved mostly to promote his business/ offerings.

Great debate. Both individuals are very passionate about records, but Mike E. came way on top, not even close. Brought up his points in a better manner (cool and collected). Mike F. on the other hand looked and felt frantic.

I’m still listening/watching. Regarding ERC. If you’re gonna sell records for $500 there should be no defects of any kind whatsoever. Pressing or packaging. Another thing that caught my attention was Michael talked about there being an A/B listening session with an ERC pressing and another (sorry forget which one) and he mentioned some preferred one and others the other. The ERC should have been unanimous

Great stuff. I hope the vinyl train keeps going full steam ahead!!!!

I think these meetings should be a "thing" and next time y'all should include Ken Micallef and German Michael! Only good things could come from these conversations. Everyone's passion and love for the topic keeps things civil and educational. Civil conversation in 2021 and acceptance of other's views is certainly a RARE thing. Best to all of you guys.

I love Florian Kaps and I love Michael Fremer, but I have to lean towards Esposito's point.

It's shocking that Fremer doesn't get it regarding ERC. Complete lack of reason.

Items are actually "loaned" for review ...nod, nod wink, wink. And I should add professional recognition among peers is quite intoxicating...that "lunch" is much more than a "lunch"...for anyone, not just Mikey...and this is the way every industry works. Biased...absolutely...it is what it is...hard not to be...but you are right Mike...ERC should be meticulous! The best stuff today on vinyl considering everything is Chad's standard LP reissues and Blue Note Tone Poets..super simple based on sound and outstanding pressing quality. Also Chad ships in bombproof packaging...never ever got a spit seam from his company. Just sayin'!

Michael nd Mike. You are both knowledgeable nd this has been a great debate. Much respect to both of you....

You are a great reviewer one of the very best .Keep on being you .I subscribe to you both .Blessed are the peacemakers.

Just when you thought record collecting couldn't get any nerdier. OMG!

I'm holding off for the format that has been taken to space by Elon. I want my copy of Dark Side of the Moon to be from the side of the moon with all the alien hotels. Fremer has become the ultimate insider when it comes to records and the record business. He gets trips to Europe paid for. For the purpose of talking about analog recordings. Sometimes during these expensive trips he pulls out high quality, rare pieces of physical media and plays them. This is his past and future - hopefully. He is a very fortunate person and he knows it. He effing earned every bit of it through his desire to live a life sharing music. I love his content and want to thank him for showing us common folk the men behind the curtains. This current scuffle over a new expensive format is the same as the arguments over cables. The rich man gets the best while us common folk, through arrogance are forced to believe our gear is just as good or that the high end stuff is not worth it. Our own mind wants to tell each of us we are the best at something, and when a rich guy walks up and gets better stuff we feel slighted somehow.

So help me out here are we saying that the lacquer sounds better than the original pressing if it was in mint condition 🤔

enjoyed the discussion, shout out to my local boy Mike at In Groove who gets all my business, hope that Michael Fremer, Michael Esposito, and Chad Kassem stay close pals

All is well that ends well. Great future for vinyl and those who patronize great sounding records.

Learned a lot from this about the industry, marketing, markets and consumer behaviors.

Is Chad baked?

I always thought that Chad Kassem is a pretty amazing human being, on top of his professionalism, but this just proves it undeniably. What a great result of a great idea -- very enjoyable video!

Loved this so much!

And how does a cutter head - amplifier sounds like? Probably opposite equivalent to the 120lbs class A Monoblocks beside your Wilsons... :-)

Hearing that the Kind of Blue 33.33 UHQR is nearly "sold out", im hoping that the 45 UHQR isnt too far behind. I skipped the 33.33 in favour of the 45 release however you didnt mention it in the vid.......AP are still looking to release the KOB 45 UHQR right?

The best 102 minutes of VC discussion ever!

I respect both opinions, and always try to stay open minded but I honestly don't understand why Fremer has such a hard time grasping that a $575 dollar record should arrive flawless, PERIOD! If it doesn't it should immediately be replaced with a FLAWLESS new copy, no questions asked. As Mike pointed out if you're going to put yourself at the top as a record company than you assume all the expectations and responsibilities with that. For example, Rolls Royce charges what they do because you're not just buying a car. You're buying the best luxury car money can buy. Same with watches like Rolex. The easiest way to spot any fake always comes down to what? QUALITY! Rolls Royce never made this, Rolex never made this. Why? Because it's not PERFECT. The company would never let anything less than that get into the consumers hands, PERIOD! Their reputation depends on it, and any company that doesn't abide to that clearly isn't on the level they think they are.

Who is being talked about at 36:30??

Seam splits in cover are absolutely the fault of the record label and how they deliver packaging to protect for that, especially if you are spending hundreds.

Both of these guys are great and i love their channels. I just hope the folks that pay $500 for these laquers make a 192/24 digital recording on the first play, preferably using a Nagra…

Mike Esposito is one honest guy!

I think there was hyperbole on both sides. They are both firey characters that are passionate about vinyl and also come from different perspectives. One a reviewer and one a seller. One problem, though, is when you call out someone for exaggeration yet are guilty for the same "crime", you dont really have a leg to stand on to blow up at someone. Also, calling them an angry person in their critique video while your yelling in a subsequent video is also kind of a case of a pot calling the kettle black now isnt it? Throw around Mr In Groove digs and such and youre proooobably going to get a bit back. It smacks of "Im a professional journalist and you..youre just...one of those lowly record dealers that make "youtube videos" Thus the statements about free records and bias. Tit for tat. Im not one of those who judge Mike F and his motivation for reviews. I dont know his heart and dont judge his integrity based upon "freebies". I have my issues with his reviews many times but its not based upon "He is a biased journalist because he got free records". Maybe he is, maye he isnt. He says he aint. Ill leave it at that and give him the respect that he is being honest. But as far as disrespect? Well, get disrespectful and call people stupid or look down on them, youre probably not going to get much respect back. As far as "proof", in the video Chad, the lacquer guy and the turntable guy (sorry cant recall the last two fellas names) all three agreed that lacquers are not exactly ideal and in fact degrade and/or have transformation of the groove shape over time and with plays. In other words..not good. The guy who does lacquers seems to lean more not on the lacquer being "shaved off" or whatever by the needle as much as time being a factor in which chemical changed take place. Either way, they back up the statement and longstanding understanding by other industry pros that lacquer is simply an inferior and unstable medium. Especially compared to your standard vinyl lp. To me it boils down to this: The big elephant in the room isnt all the flexing and hyperbole or yelling ir name calling. It isnt about something turning to dust or I have played this many times and its still fine. Its the fact we do not know for certain the stability of these expensive lacquers and when compared to the tried and true vinyl lp, its not exactly the smartest risk. Its a load full of money to spend on a relativly risky medium. And hyperbole aside, I got that is what Mike E was saying in his initial video. There are high percentage risks and lower. Id say lacquers fall in the later category. So Im not sure how Mike F really proved anything. No one in the video agreed with him concerning longevity, durability or practicality of lacquers as a medium to have music recorded. Chad simply conceded that "life is a risk" lol Diplomatic to say the least. I agree though that an independent study would be interesting. Though it still would not tell us what these lacquer reissues will be like in 10-20 years or even less. But yeah, somebody have a spectral analysis machine handy? 😁 In the end if someone wants to purchase a $1,000,000 edison cylinder because they think its the bees knees.. I dont care. But I also think that someone has the right to critique that choice with logic thats been proven and backed up by professionals. And someone has the right to be pissed and express it to his customers and viewers if they see by their experience a company isnt holding high enough standards for the price they pay. Long live vinyl records! Right on🤙🏻

I have a lot of respect for Mike after this video. Props brother.

Fremer sounded frantic, and a little manic, think his heart is in the right place, but Attacking In Groove Mike was bad form.

Interesting debate. I have to say that I have watched both of your shows. I came prepared to agree with AP. However, IG had some powerful points. $500 per a record is so far outside the mainstream that it is turning people off records. The vinyl revival will kill itself with this type of greed.

3 Hours worthwhile, Thank You All!

I'd like to see the reviews of the MOFI's because I bought that Simon and Garfunkel assuming it would be better than my original. The most I ever paid for a record was $200 and that was for a RCA shaded dog Witches Brew. Which I bought because a friend needed money.

I just bought a MCA Impulse pressing of Coltrane Live at the Village Vanguard for 12 bucks. Sounds great

Love both these guys and vinyl is the s***!

Interesting what Gary said about pre echo. I hear pre-echo on many albums.

I have now finished looking around, and I could not find another video on the ultranet where the word "lacquer" is mentioned more often.

I certainly know more now than before this video, the catfight worked to our advantage, my take is that the guys selling the lacquers should mention the difference with vinyl.

Always good to speak the truth.

I purchased a new vinyl record last week.Took it out of its jacket to clean it and both were scratched.i went back to the store and the manager opened x12 double lps to get X2 unscratched records.oh and it was £29.99

Evidence should be shown to each other before this program

Relating to the comments about the poor sounding "Bridge Over Troubled Water" One Step, do the original multi track tapes exist? If so, couldn't they just make a new remixed master tape, as Giles Martin has been doing with the Beatles catalogue? And perhaps do the same for the first Doors album?

I wish i had 50 to 100 thousand on free records. And conflict of interest, everyone has that. Not only in this business. By the way: sound is something different from used material. But i agree that you expect a perfect record if you buy one for 500$ . If you dont get this, refund or ask for another one. That should be the law.

Been waiting for that Quiet Kenny repress a while now. Get it done, Chad!! As for the lacquer debate, the Korf Blog is a very interesting read. It's very carefully done and honestly sheds more light on longevity than anecdotal evidence. I don't understand Mike Esposito's reluctance to read or consider duplicating their results except for the fact that it would show he's incorrect. Sounded like Mike Fremer even would have gone in on getting a third party unaffiliated with Supersense to verify the results. Between that and the video plays of the two older lacquers, I'm not sure what more anyone could ask of Michael Fremer to prove he is correct.

I notice that it's harder as a reviewer to get promo LPs. Not a problem since I end up buying things I'm interested in covering.

I just love you all my main bitch about records is people buying all kinds of main stream records and big sellers back in the day. It’s people like disccogs and some other company’s. Which is now driving records thru the roof. Now people like me who are retired living on a Budjet now cannot afford.. I feel these companies there are alot of people want too get into vinyl but simply can not afford too get into the gig.. is so unfair that theynjack the -prices through roof and drive us out of the market. Please companies give us a chance too enjoy our hobby I know your trying too build your company’s and make a living but we want too be able too enjoy our hobby too. What a interesting show that was, I love you all!!!

No real winners here, but respect for showing up particularly Mike E. Tough Gnarl

An Esposito vs Fremer battle - In my opinion, Esposito had the better argument. I agree if they want to charge such insane prices, the records should be flawless. Mistakes happen in mass production, but on very expensive limited high-end runs, nothing inferior should make it out the door.

(I know this is old) If there are lacquers that are degraded, then surely, just show these old things how they are damaged and people can see the issue.

I agree to Mike. Man if your producing limited edition with a high price tag, should be perfect, should be quality controlled. doenst matter if got change or not the point is we paying to get this thing in perfect condition. Practice makes perfect but nobodies perfect, so why practice? - source unknown.

I heard there's this new technology coming called... Compact disc? ~My friend just got one in his car!

Interesting discussion on all sides. I don't appreciate Michael F swatting away Mike's point by saying "that's anecdotal evidence," when Michael F was the one saying "I've listened to this one lacquer"... to "make" his point. Having said that... The amount of knowledge in this room is mind-blowing. Frankly, after listening to this discussion, I'm regretting my choice to get Coltrane's "Love Supreme" on K-Tel Records. Carry on, gents!!

I love passionate nerd fights!

Fremer Bob said it the best. In the times are changing

As an old school dj, its clear that vinyl sound better! cd's have ruin the dj competence...i have listen very old vinyl more than 60 years and they are still good! With cd aluminium get oxidation and don't work after 20 years...thats a fact! cd and numerisation have killed the work of real dj's...the price of vinyl must stay reasonable...I was collecting rare vinyl when everybody go to cd and download and it was cheep, not anymore... for mixing nothing can compare with the touch of vinyl...Analogue for ever! Also i think mastering of vinyl is not as good as it was in the past...So mixing right is very important...Great respect for the people that keep the vinyl alive! Acetate degrade pretty fast but still collectible and special when you play it, also picture disk and colored vinyl are nice but don't last in time as good vinyl! Great respect for Michael Fremer great passion and thanks for the reviews and your honesty!

THE VC NEEDS ALL THREE OF YOU . ALL THREE OF YOU ARE IMPORTANT TO US .

I wouldn't care if my Camry was delivered with some light scratches on the hood, but I sure as hell would say something if it were a Porsche. It's also such a pain in the ass to exchange a record and part of the $500 should be the peace of mind knowing that you won't be dealing with any of that bullshit. Also $500 is a ridiculous pricing for a record and normalizing that is part of the problem - unless we're talking about a vintage record which has appreciated in value because of rarity

These supersense lacquers are not for joe blow vinyl fan. I think most of the people buying these know what they are getting into...

Click links for albums with best sound. @ @ @

It seems like Fremer just don´t WANT to get it! Tiresome.

👍👍

The ultimate message should be that each buyer is free to waste his or her money as he or she sees fit, and no one has any business telling that buyer what to do.

Chad takes his time formulating his thoughts, but I think he's really cool!

16:55. Fremer months ago talking about MOFI records that didn’t sound good and why. So Espo and his fans going on now about Fremer being offside on his interview with MOFI makes no sense

I was expecting a more level-headed conversation from two obviously intelligent men whom I respect greatly. I tend to side with Mike Esposito in this discussion, based on his keeping his composure for the most part. In contrast, Mike Fremer's emotionalism is grating, and contributes significantly to the disintegration of what was prefaced to be a quality exchange. Stopped watching 40-mins into it.

At end of the day I do think this has been able to get the education out there which was I believe was In Groove Mikes’s intention from the start…. 2022 sounds like it will be a great year…

👍👍👍👍🎸🎻🎼🎺🎶🎹👌

It’s a shame that we can’t seem to just enjoy the music. If we worry about quality some albums will be bad - the Pink Floyd Animals have been dreadful. The SACD IMHO to me sounds the best. Not the vinyl.

Same argument why do people buy Rolex watches Ferrari cars etc its up to them how they spend their money

I agree with Mike E., for 575 I shouldn't be able to detect any flaws. Whether or not the record is actually "perfect" in some Platonic sense, that's a different point and I don't think Mike E. is arguing that

16:15. Espo really is offside (I don’t know what’s in your heart)

I decided to stop buying records... About every second record came warped or had some other issue. Got back into vinyl in 2015 but there was too much disappointment over the years. 20 to 40 euros for a record but now quality control?

After all is said and done, Mike E said some slightly hyperbolic shit about lacquer in a casual setting not trying to be scientific and Fremer came at him multiple times and was unable to prove anything besides that he sort of looks down on Mike E and that he hates being wrong. I don't care that he likes ERC. I think he's wrong on both the count that their business model is terrible and that lacquer seems to be provably pretty bad. I never would have known he was so annoying on this subject if he hadn't brought the fight to Mike E several times. And hey I don't really even know who Mike E is. I found this stupid beef through Fremer's channel. Very funny that since this happened Mike E received and unboxed really bad ERC. I think the point that is lost in forgetting that this all started because Fremer decided to turn this into a Thing is how much less negative ERC/laquer content there would probably be from Mike's end if Fremer hadn't forced him to defend himself. He would have talked shit on them once or twice and moved on.