They use the cup to catch the hundreds of arrows that are shot at the main characters.

I have a relative who has a fair bit of background in Chinese history - according to him, the cup is to keep the scabbard in place. Note how the scabbard opening for the ox tail dao is quite wide to accommodate the wider front end of the blade. If the guard is not cupped, the more narrow part of the blade near the hilt would slide back and forth within the opening, hence dulling the blade as well as making the fit less secure. The cup essentially locks the scabbard in place.

Considering that the blade is wider towards the tip, the guard might also keep the scabbard from rattling against the narrow width at the base of the blade. I think all proposed ideas are correct because it seems like a simple solution that does a decent job at many different things. Kinda genius really.

I strongly agree with the strength/rigidity statement.

Well clearly for drinking the blood of your enemies. However, failing that the rainguard idea probably holds the most merit... especially if you consider a bunch of these being stored on racks for wall defense etc. I think this design won out because it achieved several outcomes at once.

Matt, on the antiques were there any evidences of the cup receiving damages from cuts and thrusts or were they mostly pristine?

i dont even care about this topic, im here for the innuendo and the context

It feels like all of your theses' have a fair degree of validity. So can we call this a package deal? A more comfortable, rain-shedding hilt that is stronger for it's weight and provides greater hand and thrust protection seems like an all around good thing.

Also, another point in favor of the low manufacturing cost theory: Dao are more associated with commoners' weapons as opposed to "gentleman" swords like the jian. (yes, yes, nobility also used dao, I'm just talking in generalities)

Many Byzantine swords also had this feature. It must have had a purpose for both cultures to have developed it! Or they had mutual cultural exchange.

I believe it has to do with making a strong guard lighter, or a light guard stronger, as well as aligning the blade in the scabbard so it doesn't bounce around a lot, as well as the water issue. As far as origins... I believe we see some disc guards on roman blades before we see them in china, right? Maybe I'm mixing that up.

Probably to have a lighter/thinner guard that won't bend as easily..

My guess is that it's designed as a spacer to keep opponents' blades further away from your hand/arm when they hit the guard, so that even if your hand is choked all the way up the hilt, there is always an extra inch or two of space between the opponent's blade and your fingers. And the reason it's a hollow cup when a solid metal disk of the same thickness would do the same job is likely to keep the sword's weight down and keep its center of gravity higher up the blade.

First thing I thought when I saw that cup is that clanging a blade on the lip of that thing that would be a great way to put a dent in a mass-produced sword. I doubt doing chip damage to the enemy's weapon is enough motivation to design in that way, but it could be a nice bonus side effect.

It seems like it would serve as a good "rain-guard", but might also assist with blocking/catching an opponent's tip when they're attempting a thrust(?)... Or... it's a BLOOD CUP TO COLLECT YOUR OPPONENT'S BLOOD SO YOU CAN DRINK IT!!🤘🤜🤣

I've been practicing kung fu virtually my entire life, granted that's only 25+ years. But I can honestly say that a far as I've ever known, the generally accepted concesus at least in the modern kung fu community (Wulin) is that that cup shape was meant literally as a cup to catch blood running down the blade from getting all over the handle as you cut through enemies. As I understand it dry blood is notoriously sticky; no good on a sword handle. The ferocity of techniques used with the dao lend to spilling lots of blood.

Valid, well thought out points and line up with what I've been told and my own thoughts. Thanks for putting this out! I think a big factor is both the rain protection as well as strengthening the disc guard which remember could've been brass/bronze? and not iron. I have trained in this saber and sparred with it often for several years... I have NOT experienced using the cup/dish as a thrust catch myself.

Probably to keep rain out of the scabbard.

That type of guard can prevent blood etc fluids from reaching hand. Swords of that shape are pretty good to cut, slice, slash etc so they mostly drain in blood and other matter that can fall on hand damaging the grip on it.

When did they discard the disc guard?

Very well thought out. Always a pleasurable learning experience. Thanks Professor.

Very good video, I think you brought many interesting points. As for the fact that you can actually pour liquid into the guard, in the Kung Fu school I attend the master usually tells the students that the cup shaped guard (in Italian he calls it "scola sangue", which I think it could be barely translated as "blood dripper" or "blood drainer", correct me if it's not accurate) was used to avoid that the rain or the enemy's blood could drip to the handle and make it slippery. I wasn't very convinced about that but, who knows.

I like that you said about how we always talk about sword against sword when often it’s spears they’d be up against. Nearly all of the Chinese sabre applications in the tai chi form I learnt in the 90’s were against spear or pole arm attacks

All I know is I would kill to watch a discussion between you and Chinese specialist Scott Rodell

It's there to collect the blood of your enemies.

The additional distance gained to protect the hand from binds is likely the most probably reason. The cup starts to appear in the later periods, just as the Jian's prominence as a civilian duelling weapon started to grow. In general, the duelling Jian's techniques heavily involve controlling the opponent's weapon and getting slices on the opponent's hand or forearm from the bind. That additional bit of distance in protecting the hand from angles of attack from the bind would have been a huge factor in keeping the Dao relevant as a personal side arm. I do not think catching the opponent's point was ever intended design, rather a happy side effect. I have never seen a school of Chinese Dao-fa that keeps the Dao between the opponent and themselves in a manner that would lead to the catching of the point in the cup. Most DaoFa I am aware of tend to keep the weapon arm back, as it is and always was meant to be used with a shield in warfare. And even without a shield, there seems to be a great emphasis on keeping the sword arm back so as to not present an easy target, again likely because doing so against the more nimble Jian, where many schools of JianFa emphasised on targeting the opponent's weapon arm, is suicide.

My guesses for the Cup shaped disc is two things. 1. It adds strength. 2. Depending on the shape of the scabbard, it could keep water from rain from dripping past the guard into the scabbard.

The "umbrella" idea is, in my view, likely to have been incidental, and a serendipitous advantage, but not the primary purpose of the folded edge. If it were the primary reason, why continue the folded edge around the bottom (blade edge side), where the geometry doesn't really give that advantage. In this instance one would perhaps expect a small projection to go over the top of the guard (back edge) where the rain is likely to get in, and stop there. This would be much easier and less laborious to make than a folded edge going right the way round the entire guard. Also I believe the "cushioning" effect of the folded edge on the guard, helping to stop the edge of the guard digging in to the wearer, when bashed or knocked was similarly serendipitous, but also not the primary reason. As you mention the fact that many historic examples of Dao disk guards are made of relatively thin metal, that really IS THE ANSWER. In order to make that kind of guard out of thin metal, and be robust enough for combat, it HAS to have a reinforced edge. And folding the edges down is the simplest, cheapest and quickest way to reinforce the edge. The fact that these examples come predominantly from the 19th Century also points to this, as the manufacturers would have presumably be making use of newly available forms of mass produced SHEET STEEL. Which, if they were to be made into disk guards would need to have the edges folded down on a dolly in the forge, in order to give the guard structural rigidity, in a similar manner to the shape of an RSJ. Indeed they could have been made on newly introduced press brake machines, if they were made post the 1920's. If not either of these techniques, the guards would have had to have been cast. But even with castings, they are relatively fragile compared to wrought iron, as they have a crystaline structure to the material. Having a "folded" edge, or a flange on the edge would increase the casting's structural rigidity, and resistance to damage significantly. By comparison Tsuba would presumably have been made in the forge using a lump of bloomery steel, or wrought iron which would have been forged into a thick solid disk of steel, which was inherently strong enough for it's intended purpose, without the need for a reinforcing fold or flange around the edge. Seeing a real example and determining the exact method of it's construction would help a lot in this respect, I think.

Rain guard seem like the most logical. And the extra material keeping the adversaries blade away from your hand also makes sense.

Great rimming vid, Matt!

All of the above. Excellent analysis as usual, thank you!

In the great tradition of the “I heard it from someone who heard it from someone” spiel, I was told with great confidence by my M.A trainer who admittedly has zero actual sword combat experience that these weapons are usually produced under exigent circumstances by folks (read militias or rebels) with no access to government arsenals. A disc from poor quality steel would be slapped on as the hand-guard, and to save time and effort, the weapon smiths would just bend the edge of the guard to form a cup which incidentally has the following benefits 1. Quick and dirty way of strengthening the edge and prevent it from flaring 2. Prevent an unworked edge from cutting the user 3. Prevent jinking of the weapon in the scabbard (the part of the blade near the hilt has more headspace than the tip) I can’t vouch for the veracity of those points above, but I’ve read somewhere that these are mostly non-government issues and could vary a lot in terms of quality

I really liked your deflect the edge and catch the point guesses. Those where the first reasons that popped into my head when you brought it up. I had always assumed a disc guard was used to assist the swordsman in releasing the katana from the asaya. I didn't really think about other types of disc guards other than hand protection. Good video, thanks

I did immediately think about it as a point catcher. The rain protection was an interesting observation.

I think the cup shape evolved in a couple ways. The rain guard is a good guess, but I think if you’re stamping the guards out of thinner sheet metal, the cupped shape provides rigidity that a flat disc of thin metal wouldn’t

2 mins in and ALREADY Matt passingly promised 3 more video topics for the future! What a master of hyping his audience for future content!

Your observations seem very relevant & scientific.

I thought, as you did, something along the lines of strengthening the guard, due to the thinness of the metal, and also as a rain-guard to try and keep water out of the scabbard, although I suspect that that would have been seen as a secondary 'bonus feature', as opposed to the purely structural idea of making a guard as strong as possible, from the minimum metal. Awesome presentation ^_^

Point capturing and guarding against the rain were the two possible reasons I initially thought about seeing the title, but the rest of the ideas also sound plausible.

I did wonder about catching a spear tip, but the main thing with a short weapon vs a spear is that if you did catch the point, you still have a way to go to get to the opponent, so the focus would usually be on getting past the point as quickly as possible. The fit to the neck of the scabbard seems to make the most sense given the recurve blade - which I guess is why you wouldn't need similar on a jian?

I practice HEMA and shaolin kung fu including broadsword, I have several dao examples. I believe the correct explanation is that the cup guard secures the narrow end of the blade while the sword is sheathed. The tip end of the blade is wide and flaring, and therefore the narrow hilt end would otherwide have quite a bit of play while sheathed. Perhaps, there is some benefit preventing debris in the scabbard, etc. I do not believe it serves a specific combat function other than as a tsuba or crossguard. I feel that earlier historical examples are more likely to have a scabbard with one side open and fastenable, avoiding the issue of having to have to slide them directly into the scabbard tip-first. IMO a historical survey would likely show the development cup guard would be directly associated with the increase in the flare of the tip end of these swords, circa mid-to-late 18th century.

Thrust protection is the first thing that popped into my mind. It moves the opponent's blade further away from your hand as well.

My grandfather told me that the design of the guard was made like a cup to collect the blood during war so as to prevent the blood of your enemy from dripping down to the handle and make the grip slippery... When you see a lot of blood collect on the cup like tsuba, you tilt the dao and give it a flick to throw away the blood and then continue fighting.

Apart from holding the scabbard firmly in place, the cup guard provides a defense against thrusing weapons that might otherwise hit the guard disc, then slide to the side by friction and hit what's behind it.

I'd say all of the above, for sure. It's worth noting that rigidity scales cubically with thickness opposing the vector of force so the cup shape yields much greater strength in opposition to a blow than a flat solid disc made of the same amount of metal would. You end up with an optimized strength-to-weight ratio that way and it provides numerous advantages.

Maybe it's to catch the blood flowing down the blade. It is a slashing weapon, maybe the excessive blood would make your hand slippery and this way it would pool in the cup and not flow over your hand. These kind of Dao originaly had a piece of silk fastened at the pommel. It was, as far as I know, meant to whipe off the blood from your hands. Together with the cup it could make a bit of sense...

No one: Matt Easton: **Just answers a question I always asked myself**

Every answer you offer is better than the last.

I agree with everything you've put forward here, Matt. With cutting swords like these I bet it does help getting that guard weight down to keep that point of balance more towards the blade tip for those slashes. What an interesting and versatile design. c:

Check out this jian with a disc guard. It has a rain guard on the center of the disc. It seems the rain guard was redesigned to be on the rim because it’s easier to make and offered hand protection.

I would add one point to your list: When you hit the guard with a blade, it will have very small contact area with the sharp part and I think it would be very likely that the guard "bites" into the blade like when you hit two blades into each other. This would mean that the blade could not slide up the guard. I imagine this would have several useful sceanarios apart from just chipping your opponent's blade a bit, like preventing some thrusts or even getting some degree of control over your opponent's blade...

Awesome video! I used to practice Jow Ga kung fu and my Sifu told me the cup design was to catch blood from the blade so the grip does not get slippery.

Great video, good ideas.

The idea about cheap metal guard makes sense, since to break it you’ll have to get through the extra structure, thus enabling cheaper guards.

Great video.

I think that they were for ceremonial purposes, likely to catch the blood of your enemies for ritual sacrifice (or other purposes) later. j/k

I paused at 1 second in so I don't know Matt's answer but I am just going to State my guess now... My guess would be that making it a cup shape add strength not only that but you can make the middle thinner the slighter with that shape than you could with the flat disk.

I already heared that the cup is meant to catch the opponent's point but I always thought it was dojo lore. I think the fact that it makes it studier and safer for the same amount of material than a regular disc guard is the most probable explanation.

After watching this video and reading the comments, I think this design is genius. Cheap to manufacture too.

Yeah, I was thinking rain.

Deeeffffinitely would like that Mongol swords video asap!!

The three points I thought of were rain protection, point defence, and strength. I’m not knowledgeable but I read a lot and your arguments sound very good. The rapier / spear points were fine examples of may be. The rain exclusion given the chance of sticking seem sensible. Love your work.

idk why but from the very title of the video i said "rain" and i was kinda thinking "that dosent really make sense" and then you explained it, and it makes total sense, idk if my opinion means anything but i believe it leans more towards rain

the cup might also provide a surface for decoration perhaps to engrave with markings denoting rank within an army or something similar

Protection against rain was the first thing I was thinking, the increased hand protection seems logical

As In every blade culture society, those cuplike hand guards are meant to prevent drippings and flow of blood into the gripping hand and handle.

I legitimately have almost no idea, but in Kung Fu we put two hands on the hilt for some moves and pushed. For that move pushing on the cup surface feels good. You can push on the back of the cup much more comfortably than the back of the blade.

Mark Wildman trains with the Dao, you could ask him. That would be a great collaboration video.

You look good swinging and strafing with that sword. I want one

Excellent Vid! I believe that the steel quality was the biggest issue here. This design becomes more popular during the 19th century and is found on weapons with less than stellar workmanship. In the mid-late 19th century, massive peasant rebellions were raging across China and village smiths didn't always have the extra time, material, and skill needed to make high quality weapons. Though, I do think that the vertical height of the guard may also be a possibility. At least I suspect that the "tall" guards we find on Ming jian were designed to take advantage of this form of protecting the hands.

the cup is there to keep the blade stables and secure when it's in the sheath, because the Dao tip of the sword is much wider than lower bottom part of the blade so the sheath opening is much bigger ( to accommodate the wider tip of the blade) ..once fully in the sheath, the cup fully sit on the sheath like a lid on a jar and keeps it from shaking around on horse back riding or so ...I believed if the Dao wasn't so perfectly oddly shaped there would be no need for the cup guard, like a katana.

The thumbnail made it look like you didn't have an answer and were just going to spend 15 minutes furiously questioning Chinese sword guards

Some interesting ideas, especially the rain protection. When I've seen originals the metal of the cup seemed so thin and of such soft iron that a sword blow could cut the deeply into it. In that case a deep cup would be necessary to porridge the hand and could catch the edge.

i guessed correctly about the rain guard. I guess it can catch spear points and sword points? that zweihander montante spadone is WILD.

I like that metal ratteling everytime you search for something ofscreen. 😆

The cup prevents any blood from running off the blade onto the hilt, avoiding the risk of a slippery hold on the weapon.

It's probably a dust cover for the blade when it's in the scabbard. Occam's razor.

Whenever I'm not sure about something related to Chinese swords, I come to the same conclusion: ask Peter Dekker. Well known and respected Chinese arms expert and antique dealer.

I always thought that one of the reasons could have been to slow down and partially prevent blood to drop on the handle to make it less slippery

Longer term (overnight) rust, but I could see the inner wooden part of the scabbard start swelling almost immediately. The stiffness of a structural beam is proprtional tothe height of the beam cubed. The guard sticking out is essentially a cantilevered beam, so rolling that guard up absolutely makes the giuard stiffer and able to withstand higher loads. And as you say, it adds some cover to the large opening necessary to sheeth the larger bit at the front.

It is difficult to know the function without a treatise. HEMA is richly documented, hopefully someone will get in touch with you suggesting a Chinese equivalent.

I'm thinking snack holder. Perhaps even some dip. I enjoy such speculative video discusions, particularly just before a more researched video. Thanks!

The rain guard seems the most logical reason. A mass-produced cheap combat weapon to be distributed to foot soldiers with a low-cost way to insure the weapon remains useful with very little attention required from the user. However, it may well be that it was a simple solution that handled multiple facets of sword production and use, such as all the ones you have laid out here. Regarding Andrew Eden's comment about a "blood catcher" - I don't think that was the purpose, however, it's not so far-fetched an idea. A kung-fu sifu was showing part of a gim (or gian) form in which the sword's decorative tassels were manipulated with the free hand, and he explained the application: once blood collects on the tassels, it could be flung into the opponent's face and eyes. (I just don't see a way to use any blood collected in the guard in a similar manner.)

I do not know the history but that shape is really strong with less weight than an equally strong solid disk. Sheet metal manufacturing is also really inexpensive and was really common in the early modern times. Sheet metal is thinner so to work with it the cup might have been necessary for strength/rigidity.

Also, if you keep those cup rims fairly sharp, they can lock a sharp blade in place and keep it from sliding as you close in. (I imagine)

Everything you say makes good sense, especially the one about reinforcement, but the last idea about catching the point of a blade is the first thing I thought of. I've done some Dao sparring (read not much) and I've never heard mention of the guard being used in that way but I am familiar with the jian and (at least in the style I practiced) there are many attacks that aim to spiral in around the opponent's blade with the intent to perform a quick push & pull cut along the opponent's weapon hand/ forearm. I don't know if there is a similarity with the Rapier in that sense but being able to detain the point from that kind of thrust would certainly be of benefit.

The rigidity makes the most sense to me but the thrust catching is interesting. Some parallels with some bucklers that are concave or have bars and projections as well.

What about other types of cup guards? I have a miaodao in my possession and that sword has a hollow disc guard. It's like a round cup but enclosed with a perforated steel plate on top so it wouldn't work as well as a rainguard or to catch incoming points. Personally I think it has to do with aesthetic reasons. A chunkier disc just looks better that a thin disc, so they made it like a cup or hollow to save weight, just like with rondel daggers. :)

The umbrella function was my first thought.

You certainly raise several good points, and it's entirely possible these designs show up exactly because of those multiple possible reasons. Something that I thought of, which is honestly not based on anything but a thought; perhaps something was in this cups, like a decorative, carved piece of wood merely for decoration, or perhaps a coloured ribbon or something similar to identify a certain rank or status of the wearer.

I find it interesting that AFAIK we don't see a lot of (if any) disc guards on jian. You might expect that with a somewhat more thrust-oriented sword the more common type of guard would be the one that is shaped more like that of a smallsword, with better cover for the hand (although I realize that they were used in quite distinct ways).

Mongol sword video!!!!!

Since jian hilts also had a built in rain guard chape I would think the cup serves a similar purpose. Furthermore, earlier sabers like the liuyedao which had a flat disc guard usually had a blade collar much like the Japanese habaki, which also protected the blade from rain. However these would be more expensive as it’s an additional part and has to be fitted to the blade and scabbard. This cup guard does the job while saving manufacturing time, while providing better protection to boot.

my first idea was the rain thing too the catching the tip while thrusting is genius and i can see that another thought keeping your oponents blood from your handle and securing your grib ?

Has there been a video about the patu? I see it in the background all the time.

Flat Disk guard if hit by a struck will bend, this Cup Rim will instead dent. Daos are very front heavy and used in chopping motion, includind on horseback, they might have noticed that such impact can bend the guard and worst your grip or have the guard loose.

The cup may be used to catch/bind the the opposing blade, thus facilitating grappling with the dao, or empty hand. The optimal range for using a dao is more or less a foot-length from being able to touch your opponent with your sword-hand without leaning. More like Kali/escrima, less like european sabre duels.

a old Chinese fable, Matt . Prevent the hand from cover in blood and guts, to hold the sword tight

My Shifu says 3 things - Keep the scabard in place better - Keep blond from dripping to the handle as much as possible - If a sword gets stuck in the edges of the cup, you get an advantage

My first thought was that it stops a thrust deflecting off the guard into the body or the arm, that makes perfect sense to me. As you said Matt, it's likely a combination of reasoning and practicality, one small change can offer many advantages and for that time, if you're thinking of 'mass production' then this was much easier to make than a spherical guard. Very interesting that some 'tsuba' had a raised edge too, I didn't know that. Now I consider (Phlebas, sorry, a nod to the greatest SF writer I have ever read, Ian M Banks RIP) sorry for the aside, now I consider the downsides, if a blade/point is 'captured' then you cannot easily 'slip inside' or slip anywhere, if the cup caught the point of his weapon, then it also caught your sword, it might be your one handed sword getting pushed backwards by a two-handed weapon, if it was a simple spear, it can cut you on the return, for example. My guess is that this was a feature of mass produced weapons for people who were not 'master-swordsmen' but rather; for armies or militia. Maybe it was best used in a 'system', look at the Roman 'Gladius/Spartha?', not very impressive swords per se' in a sword duel 'one-on-one' but deadly when used in coordinated units as part of an offensive system. I really like the 'nuance' of a 'rolled -edge' tsuba, that ability to deflect or stop but then control the release, you can't do that with a 'cup guard'. But what the hell do I know? Pax dude.