That was quite the bombshell he dropped when he said that.

@@HatStackMike Fr tho

Thanks! I appreciate the support and feedback. 😀 Glad to hear that there are others out there who enjoy Sonic’s moveset. That’s a really good point about the vocal songs. Getting all of those in could have had an effect on the budget for Sonic in Smash that I didn’t consider.

Yeah, I’d definitely have loved for another Sonic character to get added to the roster. My personal choice for a second Sonic rep would be Knuckles, but Tails, Shadow, Dr. Eggman, Metal Sonic, or even Amy would all be awesome potential additions as well.

That’s fair. I can definitely understand why a lot of people don’t like it.

1. Glad to hear it! 😀 2. I mean, technically yeah the version of Rooftop Run in Smash is a remix of the version from Unleashed, but that wasn’t a new remix made for Smash and is just considered as a “Sonic Generations” song, so it’s not really along the lines of what I was referring to with “new remixes”. Still a fair point, though. 3. Yeah I definitely think that Sonic the Fighters gave some inspiration for Sonic’s moveset, especially that wind-up punch.

Whoo-hoo, glad to hear there’s someone else out there who likes it! I do definitely like that idea of a super peel-out side special that does damage, though.

Thanks, I appreciate it! That’s a good point; I can’t truly argue that that’s not a factor, especially when you consider the latest Sonic releases were all generally considered lackluster when each new Smash with him was coming out (Sonic 2006, Sonic Lost World, Sonic Forces).

Thanks! I definitely agree that discourse about Sonic in Smash is often way overblown. Yeah I would have preferred pretty much any other area from Sonic as a second stage than Windy Hill Zone. I get why they chose it though, since as you said Lost World was the latest Sonic game at the time and they wanted to promote that. But man, how cool would something like Chemical Plant have been? I also would have definitely loved to get more Sonic music in Smash, including remixes that were already made for other games like you said. Also as much as I love the vocal themes, a bit more of the actual level music would have been nice. Ah well.

Oh yeah, definitely! This was one of the earlier custom stages that I downloaded years ago, and it’s still one of my favorites. I probably should have given proper credit to the stage creator in this video, but this stage was created by “Aafyre”.

Yeah! I agree. 😀

I definitely like the idea of Sonic having that giant hand clap that pancakes other characters’ heads in Smash.

I understand where you're coming from, but I don't agree with the take that he doesn't respect abilities from Sonic that aren't Spin Dash. TL;DR The short version of what I'm about to say goes as follows. Sonic in Smash *already* has several moves in his kit that are either very similar to, or direct references to abilities besides Spin Dash, altho most of them are from Sonic The Fighters, and *one* of them is from Sonic Battle. Ultimately, the real problem is specifically Sidr B & Down B being the *exact* same move. That's the short version. The long version is below. His current Forward Tilt and Up Tilt in Smash *already are* either straight from Sonic The Fighters, or if not that, *very similar* to moves Sonic has in Sonic The Fighters. The same can be applied to even his current Jab (sure, it may not be exactly like how it is specifically in Sonic The Fighters, but it's still close enough if you ask me), as well as Forward Air (very similar if not just outright referencing Emerald Dive), Forward Smash (Wind Up Punch, direct reference to a move he has in Sonic The Fighters), his Down Throw (also either inspired by or a direct reference to a move he can use in Sonic The Fighters), and his Brawl Down Smash (y'know that one move from Sonic The Fighters where he spins around his opponent to make them dizzy? Yeah). Yes, I know Down Throw & Brawl Down Smash both technically involve him Spin Dashing, but if you ask me? They're different enough from his regular Spin Dash to where I can see why he had those moves... just not why both Side B and Down B are Spin Dashes 😭😭😭😭 Ironically the replacement Down Smash got in Smash 4 & Ultimate is *less* referencial than what he had in Brawl. Altho in that regard, perhaps o make it more on the nose, they could've kep Brawl Down Smash, but make it so when he hits you with it, instead of knocking you away it makes you become dizzy. Lastly, I want to talk about one more move in Sonic's Kit that isn't a Spin Dash while also being similar to, or a direct reference to a non-Spin Dash ability of his. Down Air (we all know what Up Special is LOL). Doesn't that move strike as being very similar to a move Sonic has in Sonic Battle? Only in Sonic Battle, Sonic didn't drop down when doing it... but SHADOW *did* drop down when doing his version of the move. I find it kinda hilarious that Smash Sonic effectively has a move that's from Shadow's kit instead of Sonic's. All in all, if you ask me? The ONLY real issue with Sonic's moveset in Smash is Side B & Down B BOTH being a variant of the standard Spin Dash. One of those should be replaced, and if you ask me? I'd go with the Boost for Side B. EXTRA IRRELEVANT NOTE: Recently I found out *some* people think his Up Smash is based in a move Sonic has in Sonic Spinball. I personally don't fully agree with this as I believe it to be a Smash Original, but I can at least see how that conclusion could be drawn.

Thanks! I appreciate the support. 😀 That’s totally fair. Even though I like it overall, I do think that improvements can be made to Sonic’s moveset. Also I definitely miss the “You’re too slow!” taunt.

Oh, I’ll fight you alright. In Smash Bros. as Sonic with his great moveset! 😛

@@HatStackMike my man 👍

Spindash Spindash Grab THEN SPINDASH

My problem with Sonic is that he only represents the Classics THAT'S NOT ALL THAT SONIC IS He has more tricks than SPINDASH He has an entire skill tree in Sonic Frontiers A lot of iconic moves throughout the Franchise, including, yet again a full set of moves in Sonic Battle I get that Sakurai wants something more simple like the Classics.... BUT AT THAT POINT JUST ADD CLASSIC SONIC WITH MOST OF THE OLD SONIC'S COMPACT DESIGN, with more creativity than just...SPPPINNNDASH He has Elemental Shields The Fire shiel is an easy Side Special compact, but not boring Bubble shield is a perfect Down Special The Thunder shield can work as a 3. jump that has a hitbox SIMPLE, BUT NOT BORING he has a Slap attack right there is Sonic the Fighters EASY FOWARD TILT He can even get Sonic's old Fibal Smash as a compromise for Ultimate's shitty replacement

@@thestickmansavioryt1941 what can sonic only do to attack in one

Well put! I completely agree.

As unlikely as that is, I love the idea of having both Modern and Classic Sonic in Smash with different movesets.

Hmm, yeah I don’t see people mention Sonic’s animations too often, but I see where you’re coming from here, especially when it comes to facial animations. I wonder if SEGA requested that he mostly keeps the same smirky expression, or if that was just the Smash team’s decision.

I can see what you mean when talking about the facial expressions, the change did make em seem less expressive, yet at the same time almost gives the feeling of Sonic not really taking things seriously, so it could go both ways imo

Yeah, I agree! Although I do like Sonic’s moveset, a few tweaks like that would have made things just right.

BUBSYYYYY

@Moe_ququ Of course, I couldn’t make a video all about Smash Bros. and not mention the character who needs to be added the most. 😉

@@HatStackMike i didn’t realized i added the comment to someone elses comment LOL

That's why frontiers got created

Thanks! That’s a good point, and there might be more going on with the Sonic music stuff that we’re not privy to, but what I can say there is that if you go to the sound test in Smash Ultimate and look at the info for remixes, Nintendo holds the “Arrangement Copyright” for the Persona and Bayonetta remixes, while for Sonic’s Angel Island remix, SEGA themselves holds the “Arrangement Copyright”. So there’s definitely SOMETHING going on with that.

I like those ideas!

I understand this, tho personally if I were to add in the Sonic Eagle, I'd rather have that be his Down Air than Forward Air. The reason is cause I think the Forward Air the Smash devs chose, Emerald Dive from Sonic The Fighters, is just as cool of a move as the Sonic Eagle.

@@curiosityman3704 I actually 100% agree, the only thing is Sonic needs a good landing option and taking away the original dair unbalance the character. Plus stomp from the boost games would be a great dair as well.

Yeah definitely, and it’s a shame because I would have loved some more Sonic remixes in Smash.

Yeah, there’s definitely a lot that they could use for inspiration from Sonic Frontiers.

Up throw being cyloop, boost for side b and one of the final hit animations from the Titan fights for his Final Smash. Also with Forward air being replaced with Sonic Eagle from Sonic Battle and original side b combined with down b as a hold and mash input system would woukd be the ideal Sonic moveset in the next Smash game

That’s fair. I’m spindashing all the time when I play as Sonic so that’s never really bothered me, but, I get it.

looks wise yes. but functionality wise, definitely not especially at higher levels of play

@@mrmelonman2893 They're still used for similar purposes in competitive

@@SonicTheCutehog not really. If we take a look at the best sonic player, sonix, side b is mainly used for spacing in neutral, and applying pressure since it can be redirected and can jump while charging as well as having a split second of invinciblity making it a much better tool for whiff punishing. Its much more versitile then down b and is maily used when playing defensively. While in turn down b is used to combo better as most of sonics true combos work better, do more damage, connect better, or only work with down b. They look similar but in execution the function differently and work better in different ways

@@mrmelonman2893 Both end up being used for camping

Yeah, I agree that changing the down special when in the air could definitely be an improvement.

Awesome! 😀

Ooh, I REALLY like that idea! I like the spring just fine and I think it works well enough, but Tails carrying Sonic as an up special sounds much better!

@@HatStackMike thanks

Yeah the reused voice clips is another good point to bring up. New voice recordings for Sonic for Smash would definitely have been nice, but I’m guessing they couldn’t get Roger Craig Smith for whatever reason. Not sure what would have been the reason myself, though.

I've heard it's something to do with whether or not the Japanese voice actor records new lines. In JP the voice is reused from Brawl so I guess nintendo didn't bother recording new stuff in English, same goes for other characters like Lucina who reuses Smash 4 voices in English and Japanese despite having a new English voice actress by then. Only difference is sega likely forced nintendo to use Roger's voice so they had to pull clips from other games

That’s awesome to hear! Yeah, as much as I would have loved another Sonic character joining the roster, you’re probably right that that’s where some of the saltiness comes from. I’ve seen a lot of Sonic fans online being quite angry about that, especially Shadow not being an Echo Fighter. As a pretty big Sonic fan myself, I know what you mean all too well about how much this fanbase as a whole likes to argue and complain about stuff, haha. It comes with the territory.

Hmm… you’re right! I looked through the info for many other remixes, and felt pretty confident in saying that the Angel Island was the only one that Nintendo didn’t hold the arrangement copyright for, but clearly I overlooked some. I’ll admit to not doing my due diligence there and being wrong about my statement. Thanks for pointing that out! However, with that being said, the Angel Island remix still stands out for being done completely in-house by Jun Senoue at SEGA. The rest of the remixes still seem to be from composers outside their company, even if the company themselves holds the arrangement copyright, like the Vega Stage remix by Yoko Shimomura for example.

Yeah, that’s pretty valid criticism. It never really bothered me personally, but, I get it.

Yeah, that’s a good point that once a moveset is created for a character, it typically doesn’t change too drastically between games. I never thought “Sakurai hates Sonic” was ever a thing until I started seeing people say it online more and more, to the point where I felt the need to argue against it to all those random people who will probably never see this video. 😛

Haha I like that argument for the lack of Sonic remixes. Thanks, I appreciate it!

I enjoy all the spin attacks and don’t mind the lack of variety, personally. I haven’t played the mods, but I played a lot of the Super Smash Flash games. Those are a lot of fun!

What things you agree with and disagree with sonic in smash

@heathermaria6309 I agree with thinking it sucks that there’s only one remix, and that it sucks there aren’t any other Sonic characters in the roster, even as an Echo Fighter. I disagree with the thought that there’s any sort of bias against Sonic from Sakurai and/or the Smash team, and that his moveset is bad, even if I can understand the problems other people have with it.

If you were in charge of Sonic Move set What would you change? And what moves Would you keep?

@heathermaria6309 I should NOT be in charge of Sonic’s moveset, because I probably wouldn’t change much and people would not be happy. 😛

Yeah, I mostly came across people saying this stuff on Twitter and forums that I lurked on (I REALLY wanted to know which characters were going to be added so I kept looking for any potential leak haha). Yeah, there’s always hope for the next game! Even though I think I understand the situation now, I’m still hoping SEGA allows for more Sonic remixes, even if they have to do it themselves.

I would definitely have been ok with the Classic Model being used in Smash, but, I can see why they went with the Modern Sonic model. Especially considering that at the time when he was being added in Brawl, “Classic Sonic” was completely a thing of the past.

@@HatStackMike That is true so was Sora from KH1 so you could consider add a Costume Model like in the representation for KH :D Since I like both I'm not mad I like and was hyped that it was possible to add these Characters for Presentation it could have been a little bit more work on the model or a "color" choice like we see in KH or different models as well.

That’s definitely something I can work on. Thanks for the feedback!

I’m not even touching that debate. 😛

It's been 30 years, just let it go